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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Silentbrick on January 02, 2020, 05:41:05 AM
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So I reread Christmas Eve, about Mab and Molly giving Harry a gift out of Obligation to a vassal and I suddenly wondered, "If Mab and Molly are obligated to give Harry a gift, isn't Mother Winter also? It doesn't make alot of sense that 2 out of 3 queens of winter are required to give him a gift, especially with the Faerie fascination with 3's. It would seem reasonable that Mother Winter must also do so.
Of course, one wonders if she did in a way. I wonder, does Harry pick up the Blackstaff in Peace Talks?
I searched the forums but didn't see anything on this come up.
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So I reread Christmas Eve, about Mab and Molly giving Harry a gift out of Obligation to a vassal and I suddenly wondered, "If Mab and Molly are obligated to give Harry a gift, isn't Mother Winter also? It doesn't make alot of sense that 2 out of 3 queens of winter are required to give him a gift, especially with the Faerie fascination with 3's. It would seem reasonable that Mother Winter must also do so.
Of course, one wonders if she did in a way. I wonder, does Harry pick up the Blackstaff in Peace Talks?
I searched the forums but didn't see anything on this come up.
A cup of her spit might be useful.. ::) It burnt holes through whatever it landed on. She might consider giving him one of her extra set of teeth, the steel ones maybe?
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If I had to guess, I'd guess that the Mothers don't have "vassals" as such.
The Knights *have*to* obey their Queen; and have a different, but also "subject/vassal" relationship to their Lady (according to Bob, back when he was explaining things to Harry in Summer Knight).
I think the Knights owe... something... to the Mothers. Damned if I can figure out exactly WHAT, though.
And as for giving a "gift"??? *shivers* I'm pretty sure that can't be anything good. The Mothers seem to be anchor and bedrock; if they act, at all, it's because stuff has gotten seriously F'ed Up.
Also, I think the Mothers are older. They predate the Kringle Mantle, so they're probably not subject to those rules.
That said... You may be correct. Maybe she already DID give him something. The Blackstaff, for example, would be a pretty OhShit kind of "gift."
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I think the Knights owe... something... to the Mothers. Damned if I can figure out exactly WHAT, though.
Other than fidelity, I don't think the Knights owe the Mothers anything more..
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I would note that Mab didn't give Harry a gift, she gave Maggie a gift. And Molly's gift was symbolic, rather than tangible. Sarrisa's influence I suppose, still teaching Mab humanity. I suspect that Molly's gift fulfilled an obligation incurred by the Winter Court when things went pear shaped during the Peace Talks. The Mother's don't visit this realm, or at least so we are told.
Edit
By the way they have prettied up the Christmas short story with illustrations and packaged it into a PDF file for download. :)
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I would note that Mab didn't give Harry a gift, she gave Maggie a gift. And Molly's gift was symbolic, rather than tangible. Sarrisa's influence I suppose, still teaching Mab humanity. I suspect that Molly's gift fulfilled an obligation incurred by the Winter Court when things went pear shaped during the Peace Talks. The Mother's don't visit this realm, or at least so we are told.
Edit
By the way they have prettied up the Christmas short story with illustrations and packaged it into a PDF file for download. :)
I don't think it is Sarrissa's influence over Mab as it is Mab playing the long game. She knows her
Knight, she knows she will get more from him with honey than tyrannical demands.
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... it is Mab playing the long game. She knows her
Knight, she knows she will get more from him with honey than tyrannical demands.
I think it is Mab playing the longer game. She knows it's likely that Little Maggie may develop substantial power. She's giving the girl a taste, just like a first free hit from a dealer.
And showing how much WinterPower can be fun.
And of course... showing that Harry approves of her wielding WinterPower.
WinterKnight Harry, WinterLady Molly... and a special Gift of Winter from Mab. Yeah, li'l Maggie is so screwed-over it ain't funny...
"Sucking up" to Harry with a "gift" for Maggie? Yeah, that's just the cover-threat for the REAL sucker-punch.
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Ya, it makes me wonder. Harry has gotten a lot of mileage out of having a fairie godmother. I'm surprised he hasn't arranged for any godparent for Maggie.
Or is that something people only really do at birth, and thus he's on the scene to late to arrange that? I was just thinking that Molly already was looking out for her some while he was "dead" and before she was winter lady, so it might be interesting if she had that role as winter lady.
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I wouldn't overthink the Christmas story. It's a cute take on the Night Before Christmas, made as a buzz starter. It has some interesting points. Mainly allusions to Peace Talks. I can't wait to see the nature of the body count which has made everyone so solicitous.
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Man outright says "I have brought your gift." And "I have an obligation to my vassals ." So she IS gifting Harry. It's only indirectly for Maggie.
Molly also says her gift is part and parcel to the whole winter lady gig.
Bob states that the knight has different duties to each queen. But it just feels off for two out of three.
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Ya, it makes me wonder. Harry has gotten a lot of mileage out of having a fairie godmother. I'm surprised he hasn't arranged for any godparent for Maggie...
<ahem>
I think you mean JIM has gotten a lot of mileage out of Harry having a fairy godmother!
For Harry, it was an ongoing source of low-grade fear spiked with occasions of raw terror... and a few moments he could leverage the unsurvivable into the barely-survivable.
I think he's hoping for better for Maggie.
The Carpenter household (and Mouse!) is better for her than anything Faerie has to offer.
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I think it is Mab playing the longer game. She knows it's likely that Little Maggie may develop substantial power. She's giving the girl a taste, just like a first free hit from a dealer.
And showing how much WinterPower can be fun.
And of course... showing that Harry approves of her wielding WinterPower.
WinterKnight Harry, WinterLady Molly... and a special Gift of Winter from Mab. Yeah, li'l Maggie is so screwed-over it ain't funny...
"Sucking up" to Harry with a "gift" for Maggie? Yeah, that's just the cover-threat for the REAL sucker-punch.
This. Given that Harry knows what faeries are like, I'm surprised he didn't tell Mab to f*** off and that there was no way he was going to help her manipulate his daughter. It seems like a real oversight on his part.
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I think this is a good catch. I think the mothers are even more tightly bound by the rules than the other queens. The more power one has, the more limitations there are. See Angels & free will. In Cold days Harry hurt Mother Winter when he summoned her and she balanced the scales immediately by almost killing him. Given that, I think that Mother winter would definitely owe Harry a gift and I agree with those who shudder at what it could be. This would be a great question for Jim at his next live appearance.
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This. Given that Harry knows what faeries are like, I'm surprised he didn't tell Mab to f*** off and that there was no way he was going to help her manipulate his daughter. It seems like a real oversight on his part.
The main problem Harry had with his godmother is that he as a child had no clue how to safely use that asset. I am sure it can be hugely beneficial especially as someone else already had paid the price.
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The main problem Harry had with his godmother is that he as a child had no clue how to safely use that asset. I am sure it can be hugely beneficial especially as someone else already had paid the price.
I'm pretty sure the problem is that there's no real way to safely use a powerful sidhe who's been successfully manipulating people for longer than Harry, his mom, and his grandfather combined have been alive.
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I'm pretty sure the problem is that there's no real way to safely use a powerful sidhe who's been successfully manipulating people for longer than Harry, his mom, and his grandfather combined have been alive.
If we leave out the Nemesis influence and Harry's own deal with Lea we end up with an entity beneficial to Harry thanks to his mothers deal.
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Man outright says "I have brought your gift." And "I have an obligation to my vassals ." So she IS gifting Harry. It's only indirectly for Maggie.
Molly also says her gift is part and parcel to the whole winter lady gig.
Bob states that the knight has different duties to each queen. But it just feels off for two out of three.
If it was a straight up gift then by the rules as Jim has laid them out, Harry would need to give them a gift in exchange. I'm reading it as part of the ongoing bargain that made Harry the Winter Knight. He incurs no further obligation. Mother Winter hasn't killed him with her cleaver yet, so I'm calling it all good.
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One of the earlier post was asking if Mother Winter had given Harry the Blackstaff. Mother Winter doesn't have it, Harry's grandfather does.
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If we leave out the Nemesis influence and Harry's own deal with Lea we end up with an entity beneficial to Harry thanks to his mothers deal.
Has it been? Because it's been pointed out (by Aurora, admittedly, but there's tons of evidence that she's correct) that Lea has been manipulating him the entire time to make him colder, less trusting, more violent, more predatory, and generally more Winter-like--and I'm pretty sure that Harry would consider this to be quite detrimental. Some of it he might be fine with for himself, because he acknowledges the usefulness, but nowhere close to all or even most of it, and I don't believe he'd want any of it for his daughter.
Also, his deal with Lea was caused by her being his faerie godmother--she'd been hanging around his entire life (and probably helping with small things) which was both why she was around and why he trusted her enough to make the deal in the first place. That's actually the biggest reason why I'd expect Harry to object to Mab giving his daughter gifts: even if Harry can ensure that everything Mab does for Maggie due to her obligations to Harry is 100% positive and beneficial, he knows that that will only make Maggie more likely to make a bargain with Mab, and that there's no possible way that that will end well for her.
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Has it been? Because it's been pointed out (by Aurora, admittedly, but there's tons of evidence that she's correct) that Lea has been manipulating him the entire time to make him colder, less trusting, more violent, more predatory, and generally more Winter-like--and I'm pretty sure that Harry would consider this to be quite detrimental. Some of it he might be fine with for himself, because he acknowledges the usefulness, but nowhere close to all or even most of it, and I don't believe he'd want any of it for his daughter.
Also, his deal with Lea was caused by her being his faerie godmother--she'd been hanging around his entire life (and probably helping with small things) which was both why she was around and why he trusted her enough to make the deal in the first place. That's actually the biggest reason why I'd expect Harry to object to Mab giving his daughter gifts: even if Harry can ensure that everything Mab does for Maggie due to her obligations to Harry is 100% positive and beneficial, he knows that that will only make Maggie more likely to make a bargain with Mab, and that there's no possible way that that will end well for her.
Harry was an orphan surrounded by enemies and without any real knowledge about his situation. Maggie is in a totally different situation. She is smart, has access to knowledge and knows what monsters are. Her main danger is ignorance and Harry should have learned that lesson by now.
For now though Molly would be really pissed of if someone tried something like that.
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Harry was an orphan surrounded by enemies and without any real knowledge about his situation. Maggie is in a totally different situation. She is smart, has access to knowledge and knows what monsters are.
...Wait, are you seriously claiming that a kid is capable of out-manipulating Mab? Because, no, just no. That's not happening.
For now though Molly would be really pissed of if someone tried something like that.
Molly? The Winter Lady? Who is, you know, completely incapable of disobeying any of Mab's orders? That Molly? Yes, I'm sure that she's going to be a big deterrent to Mab.[/sarcasm]
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...Wait, are you seriously claiming that a kid is capable of out-manipulating Mab? Because, no, just no. That's not happening.
She does not have to. In the end Maggie is Harry's child and she is not going to steal the child from her own vassal, she has nothing to gain doing so and a lot to lose. It will certainly make her own winter knight more useless.
Maggie only has to avoid doing stupid things like asking for something.
Molly? The Winter Lady? Who is, you know, completely incapable of disobeying any of Mab's orders? That Molly? Yes, I'm sure that she's going to be a big deterrent to Mab.[/sarcasm]
Is she? She is as capable of sabotaging her new mother as Maeve was. If Molly says she is hers to protect because she is technically her adopted sister or something like that Mab could create problems but that is very unlikely. She has nothing to gain and a lot to loose.
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She does not have to. In the end Maggie is Harry's child and she is not going to steal the child from her own vassal, she has nothing to gain doing so and a lot to lose. It will certainly make her own winter knight more useless.
Maggie only has to avoid doing stupid things like asking for something.
I'm more thinking of what Michael said at the end of Skin Game, the whole "what is Mab going to do when she realizes that she can't change Harry" thing. Having Maggie involved in the Winter Court would be excellent leverage for Mab, and it's not like Harry can take them out the way he did the Red Court, so...
Also, I think you missed the first part of what I said, where I pointed out that Lea manipulated the type of person Harry grew up to be--Mab doesn't have to steal Maggie, or do anything that overt, in order to be dangerous to her.
Is she? She is as capable of sabotaging her new mother as Maeve was.
Not really. Maeve managed to do most of what she did because she was just fine with Outsiders winning, and Molly's really not.
If Molly says she is hers to protect because she is technically her adopted sister or something like that Mab could create problems but that is very unlikely.
1) I don't know that Molly could just say that and have it be true.
2) If Molly says that, Mab could just do to her what she did to Lea regarding Harry's debt, and force her to give over the responsibility to Mab.
3) Molly is also a Winter Faerie. In the short story, we can see that it's already started changing her a few days after she got it. So while being under her protection is certainly better than Mab's, it's not an unmitigated good either.
She has nothing to gain and a lot to loose.
Maybe. Maybe not. If, say, Harry finds a way out of the Winter Knight gig, then Mab would have quite a lot to gain by preventing him from doing so.
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I'm more thinking of what Michael said at the end of Skin Game, the whole "what is Mab going to do when she realizes that she can't change Harry" thing. Having Maggie involved in the Winter Court would be excellent leverage for Mab, and it's not like Harry can take them out the way he did the Red Court, so...
There is also the other part of the end of skin game where Harry and Molly bump into Mab's meeting with marcone and play their own game.
Also, I think you missed the first part of what I said, where I pointed out that Lea manipulated the type of person Harry grew up to be--Mab doesn't have to steal Maggie, or do anything that overt, in order to be dangerous to her.
Lea had far more opportunities with Harry than Mab will ever get with Maggie and there was no other influence to compensate for it. Maggie mostly lives with the carpenters and has Mouse. She is far better protected.
Not really. Maeve managed to do most of what she did because she was just fine with Outsiders winning, and Molly's really not.
1) I don't know that Molly could just say that and have it be true.
It is true and she is behaving like an older sister with Maggie.
2) If Molly says that, Mab could just do to her what she did to Lea regarding Harry's debt, and force her to give over the responsibility to Mab.
She could trade Harry's debt but she did not trade her obligation to Harrry. I do not think she could. Those are different things
3) Molly is also a Winter Faerie. In the short story, we can see that it's already started changing her a few days after she got it. So while being under her protection is certainly better than Mab's, it's not an unmitigated good either.
Maggie is connected to her old life and the obligations to her human family. I think that is pretty strong
Maybe. Maybe not. If, say, Harry finds a way out of the Winter Knight gig, then Mab would have quite a lot to gain by preventing him from doing so.
I do not see that happen and even if it happens it will only be after the BAT when Mab would not need an active more than average knight that much anymore. More than likely we will see that everything Mab asks Harry to do will in some ways be a good thing to do if done in Harry's way. As we see in Skin Game.
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There is also the other part of the end of skin game where Harry and Molly bump into Mab's meeting with marcone and play their own game.
Yes, and?
Lea had far more opportunities with Harry than Mab will ever get with Maggie and there was no other influence to compensate for it. Maggie mostly lives with the carpenters and has Mouse. She is far better protected.
Harry's letting Mab give his daughter Christmas presents, the Winter Lady is acting as Maggie's big sister, and there's going to be a squad of Winter faeries next door as a protection detail. I'd say that's plenty of opportunities--in fact, I'd say it's more opportunities than Lea probably had.
It is true and she is behaving like an older sister with Maggie.
Regardless of how Molly is behaving, we do not know that it is true. There is no reason Molly's personal feelings of protectiveness and obligation should automatically translate to the metaphysical and binding obligations of the fae. As an example: Mab clearly felt love for her daughters, but she still had to make an explicit bargain with Sarissa before she could spend time with her. So there's no reason that Molly feeling like she should protect Maggie means that she actually can--I'd say it's far more likely that she can do very little to protect Maggie without a bargain allowing her to do so.
She could trade Harry's debt but she did not trade her obligation to Harrry. I do not think she could. Those are different things
So she prevents Molly from fulfilling her obligations (if there are any) instead, and then it's automatically her job.
Maggie is connected to her old life and the obligations to her human family. I think that is pretty strong
Maggie is also connected to the whole mess of Harry not loving Molly and asking her to help him suicide to protect Maggie, which I feel is also pretty strong.
Also, we've seen that the Winter Mantles can screw with people without them necessarily noticing.
I do not see that happen and even if it happens it will only be after the BAT when Mab would not need an active more than average knight that much anymore.
A) I'm not convinced. I think there's a good chance that Harry finds a way out, and then has to wrestle with whether he actually ought to use it.
B) I don't see Mab just letting Harry go after the BAT, just on general principle. It wouldn't be Mab to just give up a powerful knight that she's worked hard to get in favor of a mediocre one just because Harry doesn't like the job.
More than likely we will see that everything Mab asks Harry to do will in some ways be a good thing to do if done in Harry's way. As we see in Skin Game.
And as we see in Cold Case, there are plenty of things that Mab has her subordinates do that are in some ways a good thing and are still horrifying and the kind of thing Harry would want no part in.
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Harry wiped out the Reds, every single one over Maggie. Would Mab want to test that? And what narrative sense does it make for Jim to revisit that story line?
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Harry wiped out the Reds, every single one over Maggie. Would Mab want to test that?
And as I said in an earlier post, Harry can't do anything close to that to the Winter Court, or at least not unless he's prepared to let the Outsiders win (which would also get Maggie killed).
And what narrative sense does it make for Jim to revisit that story line?
No idea, and it's irrelevant to my point. What I'm saying is that, in-universe, Harry should be concerned about what Mab might be planning for Maggie, if she's giving her Christmas presents. Harry doesn't know that he's a character in a book, so narrative sense doesn't matter to him.
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Harry doesn't seem to show a lot of concern for the rest of the world where Maggie was concerned. And when Molly became the Winter Lady he threatened Mab with a bullet to the head. So I'm not seeing Harry thinking about consequences when he gets pissed.
But sometimes a story has other purposes other than advancing the plot. Sometimes it's for fun, and brings us back in after a very long separation. I don't see any significance in Mab's gift. However YMMV.
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Harry doesn't seem to show a lot of concern for the rest of the world where Maggie was concerned.
It's a Morton's fork situation: if the options are Mab doing bad things to Maggie or Harry destroying the Winter Court a la the Red Court, then either way bad things happen to Maggie.
And when Molly became the Winter Lady he threatened Mab with a bullet to the head. So I'm not seeing Harry thinking about consequences when he gets pissed.
Both times I can remember Harry threatening Mab, Mab has gone "hey, there are consequences" and Harry has backed down (that and Mab has also pointed out that there's a good chance Harry wouldn't win that fight). So clearly Harry thinks about consequences when reminded, and Mab is good at reminding him.
But sometimes a story has other purposes other than advancing the plot. Sometimes it's for fun, and brings us back in after a very long separation. I don't see any significance in Mab's gift. However YMMV.
Yeah, I honestly don't think anything bad's going to come of it--I just think that Harry has no reason to believe that.
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I like Morton's Fork. But I was thinking in terms of cutting off your nose to spite your face. Something my mother accused me of. :)
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Mab didn't ask anything from Maggie for her gift.. No bargain, no obligation.. Harry didn't run
into trouble with his godmother Lea until he asked her to help him with Justin, it was a bargain. Harry
was a young scared kid at that time, he didn't understand about bargaining with the Fae. What Harry
needs to do is make sure his daughter is well educated in this matter, then it is up to her.
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Mab didn't ask anything from Maggie for her gift.. No bargain, no obligation..
Two things, one important and one not:
For the important thing, my point is that Mab's gift encouraged Maggie to trust her, like her, and generally see her as someone who would give Maggie things.
For the unimportant thing, there is no scenario in English grammar where ".." is the correct punctuation. It's either "." or "..."
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For the important thing, my point is that Mab's gift encouraged Maggie to trust her, like her, and generally see her as someone who would give Maggie things.
Even if it did? So what, Maggie should still trust,like,and love her father, so his word/teaching
should mean more to her than the word of Mab. If it doesn't, well, it still won't make any
difference because the relationship is toast anyway.
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Even if it did? So what, Maggie should still trust,like,and love her father, so his word/teaching
should mean more to her than the word of Mab. If it doesn't, well, it still won't make any
difference because the relationship is toast anyway.
Her father's not around 24/7. If something happens (for example, if Mouse gets hurt) and Mab turns up and says "I can fix this"...
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Her father's not around 24/7. If something happens (for example, if Mouse gets hurt) and Mab turns up and says "I can fix this"...
Then Mouse would handle it. Mab has great respect for Mouse. More than for Harry anyway.
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Then Mouse would handle it. Mab has great respect for Mouse. More than for Harry anyway.
I agree, plus it's values she has to have when Harry isn't around. Here is a question, what is
the age of consent for bargaining with the Fae? Now Harry was sixteen when he made his misguided
deal with Lea... However even the Fae must have some rule otherwise they'd go around and make bargains with four year olds..
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I agree, plus it's values she has to have when Harry isn't around. Here is a question, what is
the age of consent for bargaining with the Fae? Now Harry was sixteen when he made his misguided
deal with Lea... However even the Fae must have some rule otherwise they'd go around and make bargains with four year olds..
Whatever Jim wants but there also was no guardian for Harry at that point in time so nobody else could negotiate for him.
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Whatever Jim wants but there also was no guardian for Harry at that point in time so nobody else could negotiate for him.
Very true, but that is my point, we know there are some rules the Fae have to abide by. It is
my guess that Harry was either of age or Lea was an exception to the rule because she was his
appointed godmother... Being who she is and what she must have known from his mother that Harry was a star born, she simply took advantage of him.
Here is a wild theory, secure your tin hat now.... Harry ultimately gets out of the Winter Knight gig because he was underage when he made his bargain with Lea. That made it illegal under Fae Law, yet she chose to ignore the fact as well as Mab because she wanted Harry so badly as her Knight. Molly finds out about it as she prepares to become the Queen of Winter and frees Harry from his obligation..
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Very true, but that is my point, we know there are some rules the Fae have to abide by. It is
my guess that Harry was either of age or Lea was an exception to the rule because she was his
appointed godmother... Being who she is and what she must have known from his mother that Harry was a star born, she simply took advantage of him.
Here is a wild theory, secure your tin hat now.... Harry ultimately gets out of the Winter Knight gig because he was underage when he made his bargain with Lea. That made it illegal under Fae Law, yet she chose to ignore the fact as well as Mab because she wanted Harry so badly as her Knight. Molly finds out about it as she prepares to become the Queen of Winter and frees Harry from his obligation..
I do not think she can ignore fae law.
Age of consent used to be much lower than it is now and the Sidhe are old style, really old style.
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I think you can leave age of consent out of it. Mab uses conscript labor. It would appear that she has no moral or legal qualms about labor law. And Maeve bargained for Harry's firstborn. She even was going to supply a surrogate.
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I think you can leave age of consent out of it. Mab uses conscript labor. It would appear that she has no moral or legal qualms about labor law. And Maeve bargained for Harry's firstborn. She even was going to supply a surrogate.
I disagree, Mab follows Fae law to the letter, she also knows every loophole and every bit of microscopic print.. Now Maeve is a different story, she didn't care about the law, that and being
infected got her executed.
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Maybe Harry just doesn't tell Maggie that the ring (was it a ring? I haven't read the story in a while) was from Mab?
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Harry takes the gift, he knows the drill. He does not give a gift back. Faeries never do anything without reciprocity. From which I conclude the freight has already been paid for the ring.
@Bad Alias
He is the relevant section. I hope the copyright police do not come down the chimney after me.“I do,” Mab said. “Yet...” She frowned, as if concentrating to make sure she repeated the phrase correctly. “It does not do for the boss to spend too much time in the office.” She paused for a breath and then said, “I have brought your gift.”
I think my jaw bounced off my knee before it landed in the pile of parts. “What?”“You are participating in the holiday this year,”
Mab said. “I have an obligation to my vassals.”
“What?” I repeated.
She took one hand out from behind her back and presented me with a small gift bag of wintry blue, covered with cheerful silver snowflakes.
I eyed the bag. “Is it going to explode? Or try to eat me?”
“Do not be tiresome,” Mab sighed.
“Faeries don’t give gifts,” I said. “What kind of trick is this?”
“The kind that isn’t,” she replied. “I am not giving you a gift. I am fulfilling to you an obligation.
”I felt a smile touch the corner of my mouth. “Obligation, eh? Suppose I don’t accept?”
A pained expression touched her eyes for about a tenth of a second. “That would be your choice. As would be the consequences.”
“Well. That’s the first time I’ve ever been threatened into accepting a Christmas present,” I said. I took the bag. Inside was a jewelry box. Inside the jewelry box was a plain band that probably wouldn’t have fit on my pinky. It was made from some kind of silvery, opalescent metal. I brushed a fingertip over it. It hummed with stored energy. “Potent,” I said. “What does it do?”
“It is meant for your daughter,” Mab said. “And it will give her powers.”
I snapped the box shut and eyed Mab.
“Excuse me?”
She made an impatient sound. “Not like that, wizard,” she said. “If you give her the ring she will... have a certain amount of influence, until next stroke of noon, over the forces of winter.” She sighed. “And it will play music.”
I narrowed my eyes. “What music?”
Mab leaned over, opened the box, and obligingly touched the ring. It immediately buzzed and the room filled with a swirl of music, as a woman’s voice sang, “The snow glows white on the mountain tonight...”
I shut the box on the sound and eyed her. It was just possible that I’d already heard that song enough to make my teeth itch.
“Now I understand,” I said drily.
“You are welcome,” she replied.
“Just out of curiosity,” I said, “is it going to be possible for her to freeze someone’s heart and turn them into an ice statue?”
Mab looked baffled. “Those are the powers in the motion picture. Should I have cheated her?”
I rubbed at the spot between my eyes. “Got it. We’ll go someplace nice and quiet to play with this gift.”
“Make sure she knows who gave it to her,” Mab said.
Then the fire guttered again. When it returned to life, it was golden and merry, the way fire is supposed to be—and Mab was gone.
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pretty straightforward. Harry is the winter knight and the vassal is not the only one with obligations. Harry takes part in the winter festivities so he gets a gift.
Kringles gift is more interesting. He is allowed to bring gifts because that is what he does. Apparently that overrules the normal rules.
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Then Mouse would handle it. Mab has great respect for Mouse. More than for Harry anyway.
Oh, not you again. You're doing the same thing with my posts here that you're doing on the Souls and Ghosts thread. Here's a suggestion: please read my posts before responding to them. In this case, the example I specifically gave was Mouse being hurt--so he couldn't handle it.
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Oh, not you again. You're doing the same thing with my posts here that you're doing on the Souls and Ghosts thread. Here's a suggestion: please read my posts before responding to them. In this case, the example I specifically gave was Mouse being hurt--so he couldn't handle it.
Hurt so much that he could not communicate with Maggie?
I am doing nothing strange with your posts. I just think you missed a few points, that is all.
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Hurt so much that he could not communicate with Maggie?
So the theory is, Maggie will never agree to receive help from an entity that has proven willing to be helpful, so long as there's someone around to tell her not to? That seems both unlikely and unsustainable.
I am doing nothing strange with your posts. I just think you missed a few points, that is all.
It's less an issue here than on the other thread, but you seem to have a habit of responding to my posts in a way that indicates that either you haven't read them, or that you've dismissed what I've said in them out of hand for no good reason that you've explicated.
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We are veering way off topic here. Does Mother Winter owe Harry a gift? And if Eb falls during Peace Talks, before passing the staff, does it return to Mother Winter? That's how I can see Harry getting it. But I really think based on the laws of three and the fact he has duties and obligations of varying kinds to each Queen, if two of them owe him a gift for Christmas, then Mother Winter must as well. From the description in Changes, Harry could very well of asked Mab "Is it going to try to eat me?" because the Black staff already tried to?
And yes, it'd be great if someone manages to ask Herr Butcher about this at some point, because I'd really like to know.
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We are veering way off topic here. Does Mother Winter owe Harry a gift? And if Eb falls during Peace Talks, before passing the staff, does it return to Mother Winter? That's how I can see Harry getting it. But I really think based on the laws of three and the fact he has duties and obligations of varying kinds to each Queen, if two of them owe him a gift for Christmas, then Mother Winter must as well. From the description in Changes, Harry could very well of asked Mab "Is it going to try to eat me?" because the Black staff already tried to?
I had a thought. What if each Queen owed a different kind of gift?
Molly's gift was for Harry--his peace of mind. (Yes, it also benefited a lot of other people, but I'm pretty sure neither Molly nor Harry owed them anything.)
Mab's gift was for Harry's dependents--or one specifically: Maggie.
If this is a progression, then Mother Winter might owe Harry a gift for all of Winter--which could explain why she doesn't have to show up at the Carpenters' in order to deliver it.
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So the theory is, Maggie will never agree to receive help from an entity that has proven willing to be helpful, so long as there's someone around to tell her not to? That seems both unlikely and unsustainable.
I just think it likely that Maggie got a far better education about what the Sidhe are and why not to take gifts than Harry had when her age. Any communication with mouse would support that.
Also I think that Molly's protection of the Carpenter family would include Maggie which makes it even more unlikely that Mab would interfere on her turf.
It's less an issue here than on the other thread, but you seem to have a habit of responding to my posts in a way that indicates that either you haven't read them, or that you've dismissed what I've said in them out of hand for no good reason that you've explicated.
I read them and I gave my reasons for how I interpret the text. That is all. You may disagree but I suggest you stop replying when it is no fun anymore. I will do the same.
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I mean we all know the real reason she won't fuck with Maggie- It's not practical. Maggie primary (and currently sole) potential use is as leverage against her father, and Mab:
A) Has no need to play that Card, because she has Harry by the short hairs and she know it
B) is equally aware that if she plays that Card, she's going to have to either kill Harry (and cost herself a useful agent for no benefit), or risk throwing down with a Necromantic God after Harry decides "Y'know what, fuck you Mab, I'm gonna go eat a Capital City and then come back to finish this conversation".
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I mean we all know the real reason she won't fuck with Maggie- It's not practical. Maggie primary (and currently sole) potential use is as leverage against her father ...
Mab has already fucked with Maggie, and is likely to keep doing it.
She took Maggie's dad to be her Winter Knight. That is fucked up in soooo many ways, right there.
She has Maggie's oldest sister as Winter Lady. You know, the cool sister, who went all goth-y and rebellious, but made up afterwards, and still comes home sometimes and does snowball-fights and other cool stuff. But in the end, Molly's still the Winter Lady, and is gonna be icy in all sorts of subtle ways.
And she's slipping Maggie the kinds of gifts that every little girl dreams of... the kinds of gifts that only a Faerie Queen can provide. And weasels her fucked-up way into Maggie's higher estimation.
... Mab:
A) Has no need to play that Card, because she has Harry by the short hairs and she know it ...
Mab won't always have Harry by the short hairs (and I suspect she knows it). But she'll have SOME sort of a handle on Harry so long as she has input on Maggie.
B) is equally aware that if she plays that Card, she's going to have to either kill Harry (and cost herself a useful agent for no benefit), or risk throwing down with a Necromantic God after Harry decides "Y'know what, fuck you Mab, I'm gonna go eat a Capital City and then come back to finish this conversation".
Pretty sure that's a threat that Harry cannot make good upon. Until he figures out how to un-Mantle, there's nowhere he can go that Mab cannot know, cannot find him. The Mantle inside him is a part of Winter, part of Mab's own power. The moment Harry starts Necromanting, Mab is gonna feel it, and stop it (unless she figures she can control even Darkhallow-Harry via the Mantle). He can maybe get a moment of privacy if he draws a circle... but probably not! With Winter already inside him, I will assert that Mab herself is inside the circle, too!
You recall near the end of Cold Days, he figured out he could step across the big circle on Demonreach because he was PART of the island, in some sense already inside it. Confirmed(ish) later by Molly repeating his logic with mud from the island itself. Winter inside Harry means a mere circle will no longer keep out Mab!
Last but not least: I suspect the Darkhallow is gone from his mind, from when Lash took the psychic bullet (it remains to be seen whether Bonea knows some/all of Lash's info) and so much of the Lash-knowledge (Ghouls' speach, etc) departed.
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If Mab knows what Harry's thinking and doing, why didn't she know what Lloyd Slate was up to? By that logic she should have known he was the one that killed the Summer Knight. I suspect Mab has to find Harry through other means.
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@morris: Thanks. So Mab tells Harry “I am not giving you a gift. I am fulfilling to you an obligation," “If you give her the ring," and “Make sure she knows who gave it to her." It seems to me that wants Harry to tell Maggie that the ring is from Mab. Mab does not act without purpose. But, the truth is that Harry will be the one who gave her the ring. Mab's obligation is to Harry, not Maggie. So that leads me back to "maybe Harry doesn't tell her it's from Mab."
Does Mother Winter owe Harry a gift? And if Eb falls during Peace Talks, before passing the staff, does it return to Mother Winter?
Maybe she owes him a gift, but he has to go to her to get it. Jim's said some contradictory stuff on how the staff goes from one wizard to the next. He's said the Blackstaff chooses his successor and he's said that the Blackstaff goes to the wizard willing to pick it up. It seems that under both circumstances, the staff does not return to Mother Winter.
You recall near the end of Cold Days, he figured out he could step across the big circle on Demonreach because he was PART of the island, in some sense already inside it. Confirmed(ish) later by Molly repeating his logic with mud from the island itself. Winter inside Harry means a mere circle will no longer keep out Mab!
Last but not least: I suspect the Darkhallow is gone from his mind, from when Lash took the psychic bullet (it remains to be seen whether Bonea knows some/all of Lash's info) and so much of the Lash-knowledge (Ghouls' speach, etc) departed.
Circles are used to summon things. Harry summoned Mab. That's how she showed up. At least that's what the book says. Harry's been wrong before about how things work.
Based on what's happened, it really seems like Harry shouldn't know how to do the Darkhallow, but Jim has repeatedly said that he could have.
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If Mab knows what Harry's thinking and doing, why didn't she know what Lloyd Slate was up to? By that logic she should have known he was the one that killed the Summer Knight. I suspect Mab has to find Harry through other means.
I don't know about Slate, but she always finds Harry when she wants to. She found him after Kincaid plugged him fast enough to keep him alive. Personally I think her buddy the Gatekeeper has a satellite lock on him. Another person who can find him anywhere.
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I think there is something we are all forgetting... Harry has an amazing gift for influencing others both with words and deeds. We remember Lasciel’s shadow eventually evolved into Lash which in turn later begat Bonnea. So he has shown he can create life, a positive one at that, from an otherwise dark being.
Mab, as much as any Mother, is sentimental. Proof in her reluctance to act against Maeve directly and having Harry, as her Knight, move to counter Maeve’s attempts to destroy the Well. Other interactions with Harry have led to glimpses in Mab softening just a little... being a little more open to kindness in lieu of coercion. I think Maggie’s gift is a reflection of this... I think Mab is, in her own way, being kind to his vassal’s daughter...Maggie is a reminder of her own experiences as a Mother. Also due to the very nature of the Rites invoked to become the Winter Knight... Harry could be viewed as Mab’s Consort/spiritual spouse. It would therefore make absolute sense for Mab to dote upon Maggie. Yes, Mab could act from an ulterior motive... but maybe, just maybe, even she recognizes it doesn’t profit her to have Harry maintain a constantly adversarial relationship. Maybe giving Maggie a gift is her way of fulfilling her obligation to her vassal to be a worthy Liege as well as just repaying the minor kindness that Harry tends to give any female.... but at times even the courtesies he gives to Mab are not solely out of a Vassal’s obligations but from a more compassionate place in his heart. He has in private lent his ear to her, particularly involving sparing her pride and grief over Maeve’s death. That is something Mab may not find with anyone else.... and may also contribute to why she has finally found a Worthy Knight in Harry. Just my thoughts.... I don’t think we have to automatically ascribe malice or manipulation to Mab’s actions in this case.
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And as I said in an earlier post, Harry can't do anything close to that to the Winter Court, or at least not unless he's prepared to let the Outsiders win ...
Sure he can!
He just needs to line up their replacement, first.
He saw the power-vacuum left by knocking off the Ramps, and he knows what Winter is doing, so you're right: he won't just "eliminate the Winterfae, fullstop."
But hey... we have Fight Night coming up (or whatever Jim ends up titling "The Wrestling Book"). Filled with bored dilettante gods who have nothing worth doing.
How about a Justice League coalition of dozens of pantheons' deities moving to defend the Outer Gates, as most of Winter's power dissipates back to being Wildfae, or resurgent Spring & Autumn courts, or both, or something else...
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I think at another fan interaction, someone claimed Jim had titled it Body Slam.
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While I'm sure you guys are on the right track, there is another possibility. Just as being Mab's knight imposes obligations on Harry, a balance must be kept. For me, the key element of the scene was the fact that she didn't have to personally deliver the gift and when Harry asked her about that fact she replied: “It does not do for the boss to spend too much time in the office.” The power could be a snare waiting to hook Maggie, but overall, I saw it as a boss giving her employee a Christmas bonus. There's no obligation in it for Harry (or Maggie for that matter). He's already paid it by being her vassal.
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“You are participating in the holiday this year,” Mab said. “I have an obligation to my vassals.”
This says it all. Harry has enough obligations, Mab can have a few too and by celebrating Christmass Harry is actually celebrating winter and strengthen its story.
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Honestly the thing I'm most confused about is that Harry doesn't consider Vadderung/Kringle a friend. They've fought alongside each other in atleast 2 battles. He's given good advice, crucial on separate occasions. Plus he seems like a genuinely fun guy,
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Honestly the thing I'm most confused about is that Harry doesn't consider Vadderung/Kringle a friend. They've fought alongside each other in atleast 2 battles. He's given good advice, crucial on separate occasions. Plus he seems like a genuinely fun guy,
Perhaps because it is a god/immortal/ mortal type relationship, he can have a good relationship but the closeness of being true friends isn't a good idea.
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This says it all. Harry has enough obligations, Mab can have a few too and by celebrating Christmass Harry is actually celebrating winter and strengthen its story.
It really doesn't say anything that we don't already know. We already knew that Harry was celebrating Christmas. We already knew that Mab had obligations to her vassals as of Dead Beat. That's the thing about the Sidhe. They say things that sound like they mean something, but they don't mean what you think they mean.
Honestly the thing I'm most confused about is that Harry doesn't consider Vadderung/Kringle a friend. They've fought alongside each other in atleast 2 battles. He's given good advice, crucial on separate occasions. Plus he seems like a genuinely fun guy,
Until it's time to feed you into a meat grinder. I'm suspicious of Vadderung.
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Vadderung (if not Kringle) is one of the all-time champions of the Long Game. There's a reason he's helped Harry in the past. He's powerful, he's ancient, and he knows stuff. I cannot wait to see how he'll participate in the Apocalypse Trilogy. I'm not expecting a one-for-one implementation of Ragnarok, mostly because I think some of the key participants have become something else—a point I expect to be explained in greater detail in Body Slam.
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Vadderung (if not Kringle) is one of the all-time champions of the Long Game. There's a reason he's helped Harry in the past. He's powerful, he's ancient, and he knows stuff. I cannot wait to see how he'll participate in the Apocalypse Trilogy. I'm not expecting a one-for-one implementation of Ragnarok, mostly because I think some of the key participants have become something else—a point I expect to be explained in greater detail in Body Slam.
Harry seems to be a mortal champion of many of the local powers who are fighting or opposing the Outsiders. He has screwed over their plans multiple times (The Black Council/Circle). I assume that Vadderung does not want the Outsiders and their allies, minions, useful idiots to win. Of course he is aiding Harry, at least on occasion.
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I do not remember where I read this but Odin in the old stories is not just helping his champions to get glory in battle. He can Olson betray his champion and cause his death in battle.
Probably to make sure he dies in battle and can go to walhalla at the height of his power but Odin has his dark side. Ravens are carrion birds after all.
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Honestly the thing I'm most confused about is that Harry doesn't consider Vadderung/Kringle a friend. They've fought alongside each other in atleast 2 battles. He's given good advice, crucial on separate occasions. Plus he seems like a genuinely fun guy,
Have you befriended any ants lately?
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I would note that Mab didn't give Harry a gift, she gave Maggie a gift. And Molly's gift was symbolic, rather than tangible. Sarrisa's influence I suppose, still teaching Mab humanity. I suspect that Molly's gift fulfilled an obligation incurred by the Winter Court when things went pear shaped during the Peace Talks. The Mother's don't visit this realm, or at least so we are told.
Edit
By the way they have prettied up the Christmas short story with illustrations and packaged it into a PDF file for download. :)
The gift was to Maggie, but for Harry. Being the indirect person that Mab is, the actual gift to Harry was strengthening his fatherhood and his bond with his daughter.
Telling him to be sure to tell Maggie who it was from also obligates him to explain just who his boss is—and what his job is. Therefore obligating Harry to embrace responsibility. Something he has avoided in the past.
I could keep going. This is enough for now. The gift was definitely for Harry.
Man outright says "I have brought your gift." And "I have an obligation to my vassals ." So she IS gifting Harry. It's only indirectly for Maggie.
Molly also says her gift is part and parcel to the whole winter lady gig.
Bob states that the knight has different duties to each queen. But it just feels off for two out of three.
I’ll point out that Molly may mean that paying those bills, i,e, debts, is “part of he gig as the Winter Lady". Letting Harry know about it is her personal gift to him.
Just going to muse that this exchange is a prime example of why Molly was the right person for Harry all along. Now, we’ll just have to deal with those annoying mantles.
Hmm. Being the guilt factory that Harry clearly is, I wonder how long it’ll take him to figure out that if he’d just boinked Molly, that she wouldn’t be the Winter Lady?
Lastly, remember that Mother Winter cannot travel. Kringle gave Harry a late Christmas present because the island was a “tough delivery”, so it’s not inconceivable that Mother Winter would wait until Harry travels to her again.
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Honestly the thing I'm most confused about is that Harry doesn't consider Vadderung/Kringle a friend. They've fought alongside each other in atleast 2 battles. He's given good advice, crucial on separate occasions. Plus he seems like a genuinely fun guy,
They have the basis for a friendship--at least, one of the personas. Wait until you see the two of them watching a movie at a drive-in theater in Kringle's sleigh.
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Telling him to be sure to tell Maggie who it was from also obligates him to explain just who his boss is—and what his job is. Therefore obligating Harry to embrace responsibility.
What responsibility is Harry forced to embrace by telling Maggie that he's the Winter Knight?
Hmm. Being the guilt factory that Harry clearly is, I wonder how long it’ll take him to figure out that if he’d just boinked Molly, that she wouldn’t be the Winter Lady?
Pretty sure this isn't true. There's some evidence that the Ladies don't have to be virgins when they get the mantle.
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Pretty sure this isn't true. There's some evidence that the Ladies don't have to be virgins when they get the mantle.
Hmmm?! Got a cite?
Or care to share your line of reasoning?
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Hmmm?! Got a cite?
Or care to share your line of reasoning?
It's fairly heavily implied in Proven Guilty that Slate used to rape Lily before she became the Summer Lady. Also, Mab seemed to have no problem with Harry sleeping with Sarissa, and Sarissa was her choice for replacement Winter Lady. Of course, Mab could have been betting that Harry wouldn't, but given the situation, I don't think Mab would have risked it.
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It's fairly heavily implied in Proven Guilty that Slate used to rape Lily before she became the Summer Lady. Also, Mab seemed to have no problem with Harry sleeping with Sarissa, and Sarissa was her choice for replacement Winter Lady. Of course, Mab could have been betting that Harry wouldn't, but given the situation, I don't think Mab would have risked it.
The mantle would probably make her a virgin. It is magic. Some people try an operation but this works far better.
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The mantle would probably make her a virgin. It is magic. Some people try an operation but this works far better.
Possible, but being Lady may merely require celibacy, so sex is okay prior to becoming Lady, but a big no, no, once you do. Kind of like nuns and priests take a vow of celibacy, but are not required to be virgins to become nuns or priests.
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Possible, but being Lady may merely require celibacy, so sex is okay prior to becoming Lady, but a big no, no, once you do. Kind of like nuns and priests take a vow of celibacy, but are not required to be virgins to become nuns or priests.
It is the nature of the mantle and it imposes that nature upon the bearer of the mantle. It is not what the bearer was, it is what it becomes.
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Okay, so that just means Harry should've gotten Molly pregnant then? ??? :o
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It is the nature of the mantle and it imposes that nature upon the bearer of the mantle. It is not what the bearer was, it is what it becomes.
Which is the case with priest and nuns, it isn't about what they were, it is what they become once
they have taken their vows. In the case of the mantle, celibacy is magically enforced but it is the same principle.
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Which is the case with priest and nuns, it isn't about what they were, it is what they become once
they have taken their vows. In the case of the mantle, celibacy is magically enforced but it is the same principle.
Except the story is different. This is all about being unreachable and frustrated.
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Except the story is different. This is all about being unreachable and frustrated.
What has that to do with anything? One doesn't have to be a virgin to be both unreachable and
or frustrated.
Here is another question, Maeve and Sarissa are Mab's daughters, at some point unless they are
the product of virgin birth, she had to have sex.. One assumes that Mab was also Winter Lady at some point in her career, so did she have sex and have her daughters before she became Lady? Was there a special exception like perhaps having sex with her Knight which resulted in the birth of her daughters? Or after she became Queen? Then she had sex and had her daughters... If the first, then one doesn't have to be a virgin to become the Lady, Mab already had given birth. If the second, depending on who she has sex with she doesn't have to stay a virgin to be the Lady, her Knight the exception? If the third, well the Queen can have sex with whomever she wants.. Actually we know that one for a fact since she had sex with Harry when he became her knight.
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You are made to believe that Fix was sleeping with Lily in Proven Guilty. Everybody in the books get laid with the exception of Molly and maybe Ramirez. Molly gets turned into an evil virgin faerie.
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You are made to believe that Fix was sleeping with Lily in Proven Guilty. Everybody in the books get laid with the exception of Molly and maybe Ramirez. Molly gets turned into an evil virgin faerie.
Like I said, it may not be about having sex but more about with whom she has sex with. Fix did become Lily's Knight. It could be that Maeve just wasn't attracted to Slate or he her, hence her complete frustration sexually. Molly might demand sex with Harry at some point, who knows?
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Here is another question, Maeve and Sarissa are Mab's daughters, at some point unless they are
the product of virgin birth, she had to have sex.. One assumes that Mab was also Winter Lady at some point in her career, so did she have sex and have her daughters before she became Lady? Was there a special exception like perhaps having sex with her Knight which resulted in the birth of her daughters? Or after she became Queen? Then she had sex and had her daughters... If the first, then one doesn't have to be a virgin to become the Lady, Mab already had given birth. If the second, depending on who she has sex with she doesn't have to stay a virgin to be the Lady, her Knight the exception? If the third, well the Queen can have sex with whomever she wants.. Actually we know that one for a fact since she had sex with Harry when he became her knight.
The timeline of events is that Mab became queen well before she had Maeve and Sarissa.
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The deal is that the Lady can't be a mother.
"Maiden, mother, and crone. You are the maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be to destroy the mantle of power you wear.
The mantle could just make the Ladies sterile,
[e]xcept the story is different. This is all about being unreachable and frustrated.
I similarly think that the Ladies can't have sex with fairies for the same reason Arjan states and some others.
Now, does maiden have the original meaning of "female virgin," or does it mean "not a mother?" Can someone who doesn't fit the mantle be remade by the mantle? We know that a man can't become a queen, but we also know the mantle does shape their personalities, so I think the jury's still out on that one. I don't see a really good argument either way.
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Like I said, it may not be about having sex but more about with whom she has sex with. Fix did become Lily's Knight. It could be that Maeve just wasn't attracted to Slate or he her, hence her complete frustration sexually. Molly might demand sex with Harry at some point, who knows?
Maeve was recruiting the knights so if she could have sex with her knight she would have chosen one she found attractive. I do not think Fix and Lily had sex. At one point she complained about not being able to raise a family.
Sidhe are old school so I do not think they separate sex from becoming a mother, certainly the mantle won’t do that.
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Maeve was recruiting the knights so if she could have sex with her knight she would have chosen one she found attractive. I do not think Fix and Lily had sex. At one point she complained about not being able to raise a family.
Sidhe are old school so I do not think they separate sex from becoming a mother, certainly the mantle won’t do that.
However none of that answers the question as to whether or not the Lady has to be a virgin upon
receiving the mantle of Lady. Once she becomes Lady, celibacy is one of the things the mantle demands of her.
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However none of that answers the question as to whether or not the Lady has to be a virgin upon
receiving the mantle of Lady. Once she becomes Lady, celibacy is one of the things the mantle demands of her.
I think the mantle selects the best possible available host based on how close the hosts nature is to the mantles nature. It is never ideal so the mantle will start pushing the host to change nature in its direction.
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I think the mantle selects the best possible available host based on how close the hosts nature is to the mantles nature. It is never ideal so the mantle will start pushing the host to change nature in its direction.
Makes you feel for Molly, if she was a poorer fit to the Summer mantle than a woman who had been living (and fighting, subtly and unsubtly) in Arctis Tor for centuries.
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I think the mantle selects the best possible available host based on how close the hosts nature is to the mantles nature. It is never ideal so the mantle will start pushing the host to change nature in its direction.
In theory, according to Mother Summer, "The mantle returns to the nearest reflection of itself."
But Lily was hardly that, and in fact Aurora turned her into a statue so she could hide the Summer
Knight's mantle inside her. Then when she was transformed back and Aurora died, the Lady's mantle went to her as the nearest reflection. I am not sure though how near to the mantle's nature Lily was.
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In theory, according to Mother Summer, "The mantle returns to the nearest reflection of itself."
But Lily was hardly that, and in fact Aurora turned her into a statue so she could hide the Summer
Knight's mantle inside her. Then when she was transformed back and Aurora died, the Lady's mantle went to her as the nearest reflection. I am not sure though how near to the mantle's nature Lily was.
I think Mother Summer was talking specifically about the Knight mantles there, and saying that only one of the summer queens could have hidden it.
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In theory, according to Mother Summer, "The mantle returns to the nearest reflection of itself."
But Lily was hardly that, and in fact Aurora turned her into a statue so she could hide the Summer
Knight's mantle inside her. Then when she was transformed back and Aurora died, the Lady's mantle went to her as the nearest reflection. I am not sure though how near to the mantle's nature Lily was.
Are you talking about the Lady's or Knight's mantle going to Lily?
Knight's: When Ronald Reuel died, the Knight's mantle went to Aurora because she was the nearest Summer Queen. She chose Lily as the Knight.
Lady's: The Knight's mantle is part of the Queens. So the Knight would already have a part of the Lady in them, so it makes sense that the Lady's mantle would go to a Knight with the proper plumbing.
Or at least that's my take.
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Are you talking about the Lady's or Knight's mantle going to Lily?
Knight's: When Ronald Reuel died, the Knight's mantle went to Aurora because she was the nearest Summer Queen. She chose Lily as the Knight.
She turned Lily into a statue then put the mantle in her, so while technically you can say that Aurora had chosen her as her new knight, she didn't really because there was still an imbalance. Which is the point, Aurora wanted to start a war, so she turned Lily into a statue and hid the knight's mantle inside it.
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She turned Lily into a statue then put the mantle in her, so while technically you can say that Aurora had chosen her as her new knight, she didn't really because there was still an imbalance. Which is the point, Aurora wanted to start a war, so she turned Lily into a statue and hid the knight's mantle inside it.
We don't have confirmation of the order of events. It could also be that she made Lily the Knight and then turned her into a statue. Honestly, I think this is more likely, since I tend to suspect that bestowing the Knight mantle requires the person who it's bestowed on to make the choice to accept it, given that the point of the Knight is that they have free will.
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We don't have confirmation of the order of events. It could also be that she made Lily the Knight and then turned her into a statue. Honestly, I think this is more likely, since I tend to suspect that bestowing the Knight mantle requires the person who it's bestowed on to make the choice to accept it, given that the point of the Knight is that they have free will.
I agree.
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We don't have confirmation of the order of events. It could also be that she made Lily the Knight and then turned her into a statue. Honestly, I think this is more likely, since I tend to suspect that bestowing the Knight mantle requires the person who it's bestowed on to make the choice to accept it, given that the point of the Knight is that they have free will.
Actually we do, it is when Harry visits the Mothers, the reason for the imbalance and the coming
war is no one seems to know where the Knight's mantle is. It is hidden and the only person thought able to do that is Mab, so she is being accused of it. No, Aurora turned Lily into a statue, then hid the mantle in it. They would know if it was accepted, no one did, it was hidden by Aurora. That
is what Harry figured out in the cottage in his visit with the Mothers, that is why he was given the Unraveling.
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Actually we do, it is when Harry visits the Mothers, the reason for the imbalance and the coming
war is no one seems to know where the Knight's mantle is. It is hidden and the only person thought able to do that is Mab, so she is being accused of it. No, Aurora turned Lily into a statue, then hid the mantle in it. They would know if it was accepted, no one did, it was hidden by Aurora. That
is what Harry figured out in the cottage in his visit with the Mothers, that is why he was given the Unraveling.
You're wrong. Here's the quote:
"But think, wizard. How was it done? Theft is theft, whether the prize is food, or riches, or beauty or power."
Since it didn't seem to matter either way, I did my thinking out loud. "When something is stolen a couple of things can happen to it. It can be carried away where it cannot be reached."
"Hoarded," Summer put in. "Such as the dragons do."
"Yeah, okay. Uh, it can be destroyed."
"No, it can't," Mother Winter said. "Your own sage tells you that. The German fellow with the wild hair."
"Einstein," I muttered. "Okay, the, but it can be rendered valueless. Or it can be sold to someone else."
Mother Summer nodded. "Both which are change."
I held up a hand. "Hold it, hold it. Look, asI understand it, this power of the Summer Knight, his mantle, it can't just exist on its own. It has to be inside a vessel."
"Yes," Winter murmured. "Within one of the Queens, or within the Knight."
"And it isn't with one of the Queens."
"True," Summer said. "We would sense it, were it so."
"So it's already in another Knight," I said. "But if that was true, there'd be no imbalance." I scratched at my head, and as I did it slowly dawned on me. "Unless it had been changed. the new Knight had been changed. Transformed into something else. Something that left the power trapped, inert, useless."
Both of them regarded me steadily, silently.
"All right," I said. "I have my question."
"Ask it," they said together.
"How does the mantle pass on from one Knight to the next?"
Mother Summer smiled, but the expression was a grim one. "It returns to the nearest reflection of itself. She, in turn, chooses the next Knight."
That meant that only one of the Queens of Summer could be behind it. Titania was out already--she had begun the war against Mab because she didn't know where the mantle was. Mother Summer would not have been telling me this information if she'd been the one to do it. That left only one person.
"Stars and stones," I muttered. "Aurora."
No confirmation of order of events.
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This is the important bit:
I held up a hand. "Hold it, hold it. Look, asI understand it, this power of the Summer Knight, his mantle, it can't just exist on its own. It has to be inside a vessel."
"Yes," Winter murmured. "Within one of the Queens, or within the Knight."
"And it isn't with one of the Queens."
"True," Summer said. "We would sense it, were it so."
"So it's already in another Knight," I said. "But if that was true, there'd be no imbalance."
1] The mantle has to be in a vessel, cannot exist on it's own.
2] Within a Queen or a Knight, or the Mothers would sense it. Which they don't.
3] If it were already in a Knight, the Mothers would sense it, which they don't. More
importantly there would be no imbalance.
4]
"Unless it had been changed. the new Knight had been changed. Transformed into something else. Something that left the power trapped, inert, useless."
1] Lily made new Knight 2] immediately transformed into something else, statue, power trapped, not sensed by Queens or the Mothers. There are your order of events.
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This is the important bit:
1] The mantle has to be in a vessel, cannot exist on it's own.
2] Within a Queen or a Knight, or the Mothers would sense it. Which they don't.
3] If it were already in a Knight, the Mothers would sense it, which they don't. More
importantly there would be no imbalance.
4]
1] Lily made new Knight 2] immediately transformed into something else, statue, power trapped, not sensed by Queens or the Mothers. There are your order of events.
You are aware that is the exact opposite order from what you posted 3 posts up?
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2] Within a Queen or a Knight, or the Mothers would sense it. Which they don't.
3] If it were already in a Knight, the Mothers would sense it, which they don't.
In point of fact, it is only said that the Mothers would sense the Knight mantle if it were within one of the Queens, not if it were in a Knight.
You are aware that is the exact opposite order from what you posted 3 posts up?
This. Mira, you said that Lily was turned into a statue and then was made the Summer Knight. This was the order of events that I was objecting to.
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In point of fact, it is only said that the Mothers would sense the Knight mantle if it were within one of the Queens, not if it were in a Knight.
This. Mira, you said that Lily was turned into a statue and then was made the Summer Knight. This was the order of events that I was objecting to.
Not so, because if it were in a Knight there would be no imbalance. I admit I may have been mistaken, memory sucks sometimes. However you are also wrong, the Mother's would know if it had been in a Knight, because there would be no imbalance. The Queens would know, because there would be no imbalance. Unless it was transformed which it was.. Now you'd think it would be hard to transform a Knight once the mantle is established into a statue.. Unless it happened so quickly the mantle entered Lily and instantly she was transformed.
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Not so, because if it were in a Knight there would be no imbalance.
Unless the Knight was transformed.
However you are also wrong, the Mother's would know if it had been in a Knight, because there would be no imbalance.
Unless the Knight was transformed.
The Queens would know, because there would be no imbalance.
Unless the Knight was transformed.
Unless it was transformed which it was.
See? You know this. So what even was the point of those three sentences?
Now you'd think it would be hard to transform a Knight once the mantle is established into a statue.
Why? I don't think it would be hard for a Summer Queen to do to a Summer Knight anything she wanted. It's not like Lily was known for her strong will, and she wouldn't have the first clue how to use the power in the mantle if she wanted to--which, given that Aurora was her friend and almost certainly didn't tell her what she was planning, she almost certainly wouldn't have.
And I think turning a Knight into a statue would be much easier than trying to stick the mantle into a statue. I seriously doubt the mantle could be put into a statue that wasn't also a person, since if it could be then there would be no reason for Aurora not to just do that--and given that the Lily-statue was so much a statue that even a normal counter-spell from Aurora (who cast the spell) wouldn't un-statue her, and an Unraveling from Mother Winter was needed, it seems far more likely than not that the mantle would have treated someone trying to put it in statue-Lily as someone trying to put it in a statue, not a person.