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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Mira on October 22, 2019, 06:58:52 PM
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Almost finished rereading Summer Knight and a lot of questions about Elaine have popped up in my
head. We know Harry's connection to Winter was through his mother. What was Elaine's connection to Summer? We have no clue, yet when Harry took Justin down and she ran, the place she ran to was Summer. There has been lots of speculation that it was Elaine that infected Aurora. We have no clue of what her state of sanity was before Elaine's arrival.
Maeve was a wild child to be sure, but was she insane before Slate presented her with the knife he had just stabbed Elaine with? That in of itself was a set up, he stabbed Elaine in the back,but didn't kill her.. Odd.. And she singed him with fire, he had burns, yet he was able to stab her in the back. I'd always been under the impression that it was the Knife that Lea got at Bianca's party that spread the infection, first to Lea and from her, to Maeve. But what if it was Maeve who infected Lea? Lea was wearing the Knife she got at Bianca's party in Summer Knight, yet showed no symptoms of infection. In fact she seemed saner than usual, which in of itself I suppose could be a symptom..
Then towards the end when Harry talks Elaine into helping him by moving the thorns aside so he could take on Aurora to save Lily, Elaine says something very curious. Harry mentions her betrayal of him, trust, the love they had at one time for one another. To which Elaine answers, "You don't know whatI am." I can see her saying "who I am," people change, they hadn't seen each other in years and both had been through a lot.. But "what"?
Supposedly Harry and Elaine were being raised as enforcers, both supposedly had the potential to be star children. But what if that only applied to Harry? We know the back story about why Justin took them in from Ghost Story isn't exactly what Harry thought it was.. Justin himself might have been double crossed.
If Harry was bred to be a star child, what if Elaine was bred to be a Trojan Horse? What if she never was enthralled by Justin? It just appeared that way, the plan backfired when Harry got away, turned the tables on HWB and came back and killed Justin. When she fled she went to Summer and infected Aurora turning her mad.. Then with the help of Slate infected Maeve etc of Winter..
Yes, I know supposedly she is now helping the Paranet, but she is still playing things awfully close to the vest, she could still be a Trojan Horse..
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With Lea and Maeve, I think it's the other way around, with Lea infecting Maeve. Pretty sure that's how Mab put it in Cold Days. I'd have to look again.
But yeah, Elaine does look like a good candidate for infecting Aurora, esp since having someone else do it seems a bit thin. We're probably missing some key piece here. Maybe she carried infection somehow. That or she was already infected when Elaine came in contact with her.
But yeah, it was the knife that had the nemesis taint on it. So that's a good place to start. Maybe Elaine isn't infected per se but a carrier?
Maybe Elaine is just a red-herring and it's not possible to infect Starborn?
I'm just spitballing here, lol.
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yet showed no symptoms of infection.
We should expect an infiltrator to not show signs that they are an infiltrator until it's very nearly too late. Otherwise, Nemesis wouldn't be that much of a threat.
I'm very suspicious of Elaine, and it's entirely possible that she somehow used Slate to infect Maeve and Mab just thought Lea infected Maeve. We've seen Mab say things that aren't true before. Even assuming all that, I still would believe that Lea was infected via Morgana's athame. Also, why does Elaine need to be bred for the purpose? Just being raised by Outsider connected Justin would be enough reason for me.
I've wondered how Elaine was connected to Summer in the first place. It's a hard thing to pin down because we about as much about what Justin taught Harry and Elaine as we know about what Justin didn't teach Harry and Elaine. Both are very little. Harry was taught about shields, little fire spells, how to do a binding. He wasn't taught about the laws of magic or the White Council. I'm assuming the same was true for Elaine.
Do we even know that Harry went to Lea for help instead of her showing up and offering help when he was desperate?
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With Lea and Maeve, I think it's the other way around, with Lea infecting Maeve. Pretty sure that's how Mab put it in Cold Days. I'd have to look again.
But yeah, Elaine does look like a good candidate for infecting Aurora, esp since having someone else do it seems a bit thin. We're probably missing some key piece here. Maybe she carried infection somehow. That or she was already infected when Elaine came in contact with her.
But yeah, it was the knife that had the nemesis taint on it. So that's a good place to start. Maybe Elaine isn't infected per se but a carrier?
Maybe Elaine is just a red-herring and it's not possible to infect Starborn?
I'm just spitballing here, lol.
Consider, Harry finds Elaine wounded in the Blue Beetle. He and Billy witness Slate presenting Maeve with the bloody knife he stabbed Elaine with, oh and he is burnt, the blood is dry and Maeve is pissed because she cannot do anything with it. Elaine later tells Harry that it was a set up that she and Slate had worked out. Is this or is this not a good way to transfer infection?
When Lea is taking Harry to the stone table, she pats the knife at her side and confirms that it was the one she got at Bianca's party, she confirms also it's power, this is also the sanest we've seen her since the character was first introduced.
So either is possible and a good case can be made for each. However since a point was made of Maeve receiving the knife that had wounded Elaine from Slate, that this was also a set up.. "It was the knife.."
Do we even know that Harry went to Lea for help instead of her showing up and offering help when he was desperate?
We don't know if he found her, or she just showed up when he needed help, however she was his godmother from his conception.
I'm very suspicious of Elaine, and it's entirely possible that she somehow used Slate to infect Maeve and Mab just thought Lea infected Maeve. We've seen Mab say things that aren't true before. Even assuming all that, I still would believe that Lea was infected via Morgana's athame. Also, why does Elaine need to be bred for the purpose? Just being raised by Outsider connected Justin would be enough reason for me.
The Fae cannot lie remember? But given Mab's emotional state when she told Harry that, I believe she was telling the truth.
I think it may be one of the purposes for which Elaine was bred. We still do not know the complete story of why either her or Harry were bred or why Justin adopted the two of them. Remember there are hints in Ghost story that not everything is what it appears to be as far as the story of Justin and his motives go.
Last but not least, Elaine says to Harry. "You do not know what I am.." Not who, which would be understandable, she is no longer the girl he thought he knew. But she says what I am. It is possible that by Summer Knight she knew she was star born, Harry wouldn't know he was for several books. Or she thinks she is star born, we know she is a wizard, she isn't the Summer Lady, Summer Knight, doubtful that she is a Fae or a Denarian.. So what is she? Which is different in my mind from who she is.
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With Lea and Maeve, I think it's the other way around, with Lea infecting Maeve. Pretty sure that's how Mab put it in Cold Days. I'd have to look again.
You would be correct, Mab explicitly states it. Unless JB lied to us in Cold Days. And it has never been established that Aurora was nemfected and not just insane.
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You would be correct, Mab explicitly states it. Unless JB lied to us in Cold Days. And it has never been established that Aurora was nemfected and not just insane.
But she can be mistaken, find it odd that Jim would be so explicit about Slate presenting Maeve with the knife he had stabbed Elaine with in one scene, and a few chapters later Harry also mentions it. Also one has to ask whether or not Maeve was more susceptible than others to the infestation? Because Lea had contact with the whole Court, but other than Cat Sith and perhaps Mab herself an epidemic of Nem-infection isn't mentioned.
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[1]she was his godmother from his conception.
[2]The Fae cannot lie remember?
[3]Last but not least, Elaine says to Harry. "You do not know what I am.."
1. We don't even know that. It has been vaguely hinted at that she got the job when Margaret was rushed. This may have been when she was escaping Lord Raith, so before Harry was conceived. I've always assumed it was when Margaret was in labor and knew she was about to die, so right before Harry was born.
2. But as you said, But she can be mistaken.
There is a big difference between not lying and telling the truth.
3. It's at the very least an odd choice of words. Definitely curious.
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Actually, I recall one moment when Lea acted strangely in SK. When Harry summons her and described his thoughts and desires, Lea grabs the knife for just a moment. Not just pats it, but grips it. I figured it was Nemesis considering Harry knows to much and needs to be removed, but Lea resisted the urging.
And it was later during the chaos of the battle did Maeve become infected.
I think Maeve just wanted Elaine's blood to control her. If she could not only remove Summer's player from the field but gain herself a wizard servant like her mother has gotten Harry, then she would prove her skills and worth. "Mommy got this cool new toy. I want my own version. Then maybe she will see me as a big girl and love me."
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Actually, I recall one moment when Lea acted strangely in SK. When Harry summons her and described his thoughts and desires, Lea grabs the knife for just a moment. Not just pats it, but grips it. I figured it was Nemesis considering Harry knows to much and needs to be removed, but Lea resisted the urging.
Yes, but while she is doing that she while she was explaining to Harry what a powerful object it is,m when he accused her of tricking him so she could get the Sword of Love to trade for the Knife.. To Harry's shock it is considered to be on par with a Holy Sword according to Lea. I saw it more like gloating and justifying what she was able to pull off. As I said before the party at Bianca's place, Lea seemed more infected by Nemesis because she appeared power hungry as in wanting to supplant Mab if she could.
And it was later during the chaos of the battle did Maeve become infected.
Actually I don't believe we know when Maeve was infected, when Harry and Billy visited her in the Underground she didn't seem to be exactly playing with a full deck.
I think Maeve just wanted Elaine's blood to control her. If she could not only remove Summer's player from the field but gain herself a wizard servant like her mother has gotten Harry, then she would prove her skills and worth. "Mommy got this cool new toy. I want my own version. Then maybe she will see me as a big girl and love me."
It's possible that is what she wanted, but the point is Slate and Elaine double crossed her, the whole thing was staged, he got burnt supposedly fighting Elaine,but not seriously, he still managed to stab her in the back wounding her but not fatally.. This fight just happened to take place near where Harry's car was parked, he found her wounded in his car.. She didn't want to go to a hospital supposedly because of the electronics, but even Harry has been admitted with too much harm to others, instead wanted him to take her to Aurora.. This was a bit of a show for Harry, how gentle and sweet Aurora is compared to Maeve etc... Or at the same time was Elaine reporting back, mission accomplished, infection now certain to spread to Maeve as planned by Aurora, Elaine, and Slate.
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I personally believe that Maeve was Infected between Grave Peril and Summer Knight. I don't think we've ever seen an uncompromised Maeve.
Nemesis didn't have enough time to break down her Fae restrictions (she still couldn't outright lie, for example), but was influencing her actions.
No way to know that for certain, of course, but, in my opinion, it fits. And I think she's definitely Infected by the time we see her in Proven Guilty, because what she says about Mab is patently untrue (and she looks like she's getting a dizzying high when she says it).
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I personally believe that Maeve was Infected between Grave Peril and Summer Knight. I don't think we've ever seen an uncompromised Maeve.
Nemesis didn't have enough time to break down her Fae restrictions (she still couldn't outright lie, for example), but was influencing her actions.
No way to know that for certain, of course, but, in my opinion, it fits. And I think she's definitely Infected by the time we see her in Proven Guilty, because what she says about Mab is patently untrue (and she looks like she's getting a dizzying high when she says it).
Proven Guilty absolutely, but in Summer Knight Maeve is still active on the side of Winter doing what she's supposed to (obviously, smacking Summer is a lot more the fun part of being Winter Lady), rather than on the side of Nemesis helping Aurora succeed. She could've just let Harry's party struggle and fail alone, rather than helping them out in a bind.
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Question, how long after the infection takes place that symptoms begin to show? Summer Knight takes place a month or more after Grave Peril, yet though she is wearing it in her belt Lea seems perfectly sane. Also Cat Sith seemed sane until suddenly he wasn't. So Maeve still could have been infected as of Summer Knight and had no symptoms, and if you can believe Mab really didn't show any until she was too far gone for Mab to help her.
Slightly off topic, but not, Lily. At the end of Summer Knight Lily is this sweet innocent girl who suddenly finds herself the Summer Lady. We hear nothing bad about her until Cold Days then supposedly Maeve was able to bad mouth her into believing the worst about just about everything and willing to go along with blowing everything up. Maeve's silver tongue? Or did Lily become infected from contact with Maeve? Which makes the most sense? I go for the latter because I find it hard that someone like Lily could be convinced and changed by Maeve.
Back to Elaine, if she is a Trojan Horse, she managed to infect directly or indirectly both Courts, first and second line of defense against what is beyond the Gates.
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From a Doylist perspective, fourteen books in, what purpose is served by having Mab be wrong about how Maeve was infected? All the vectors are dead, save Lea.
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From a Doylist perspective, fourteen books in, what purpose is served by having Mab be wrong about how Maeve was infected? All the vectors are dead, save Lea.
Mab thinks the problem is solved because the source of the infection has been found, the Knife. But if she is wrong, the real source, Elaine is still alive and potentially causing trouble.
Okay, fasten down your tin foil hats ladies and gents, it is going to be a bumpy ride... ::)
Using your Doylist perspective, the books are about balance, Summer Court verses Winter Court etc.. I remember a word of Jim from long ago that suggested the possibility of two star children, Justin adopted Harry and Elaine the theory goes is to gain two star children to use for his own purpose, i.e. enforcers. Or he thought for his own purpose, but there are hints that he was betrayed.. What if Justin was merely a cat's paw? He was used to raise up and trained these two
powerful wizards possibly star children to be enforcers. However to balance the forces i.e. the Courts, the White Council etc, only one star child is needed... So that fateful day when Harry came home early from school the master plan was about to be set into motion.. Elaine, successfully enthralled, malleable for the plan.. Harry resists enthralling, not useful for the master plan.. Harry always believed that Justin had sent HWB to kill him, but after his reliving it in Ghost Story he is no longer so sure that this was the case.. So why did he survive? We'll get back to that in a moment..
He does survive, blows up HWB, goes to his godmother, who happens to be a powerful noble of Winter, gets some confidence goes back to save Elaine, kills Justin in a fair fight.. Elaine says she
freaked and ran off to the Summer Court for protection.. Was she still enthralled? What was drilled into her by Justin while Harry was off getting juiced up by Lea? Elaine carries the infection to Aurora etc, etc, etc..... Balance is all screwed up, or that was the plan..
It failed because Harry survived, he is the star child who has power over Outsiders, because his mom fell in love with Malcolm, it gives him the power to influence Elaine so she helped him to get to Aurora when all she wanted to do was run and the consequences be damned....
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The problem is unsolvable. No matter who did what, once the Adversary was inside, it was inside. This is a known risk. It's why the Gatekeeper exists. In terms of balance, it's one of the main themes of Cold Days. The ending represents the first time since Summer Knight that Winter has all it's slots filled.
I don't know what I think about Elaine.
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With Lea and Maeve, I think it's the other way around, with Lea infecting Maeve. Pretty sure that's how Mab put it in Cold Days.
Probably so, but I concur with the reminders to be aware Mab is perfectly capable of being honestly mistaken. Look at how she misinterpreted Harry's motives and conduct in teaching Molly, or her confidence that she can remake Harry's personality being directly contradicted by Uriel's chosen seven words.
And, actually, the fact that Uriel chose "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are" instead of "Wrong. Mab cannot change who you are" might just be a big flashing warning sign that she's in the early stages of Nemfection herself.
I find the more convincing piece of evidence for Lea being the 'patient zero' in Winter her grudge against Bianca for "treacherous gifts". Hard for that to be about much other than the knife, especially given that the grudge was so big she considered killing Bianca a significant credit on Harry's account and still had hostility to spare for the Reds.
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What makes you think that Mab was wrong about Harry and Molly?
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The problem is unsolvable. No matter who did what, once the Adversary was inside, it was inside. This is a known risk. It's why the Gatekeeper exists. In terms of balance, it's one of the main themes of Cold Days. The ending represents the first time since Summer Knight that Winter has all it's slots filled.
I don't know what I think about Elaine.
Neither do I, a reread of Summer Knight given what has happened since made me want to rethink her character. There is the word of Jim that Harry didn't return to Justin's house right away, that is when he went to Lea or she him, that is also unclear, but I think it has been said a couple of weeks passed during that time. What of Elaine, was she enthralled all of that time, if she was, was she being further instructed?
Supposedly the Fae cannot lie, yet Uriel contends that Mab was lying to Harry about her control over him. I have always argued and have interpreted what Harry says about the Fae, is while they cannot directly lie, they can twist the truth to their own purpose, that is why it is so dangerous to bargain with them, you may not be getting what you think you are getting because there is a lot of fine print.. Like Mab fixing Harry's back if he became her knight. She did fix it, he became her knight but she didn't say she couldn't make him think it was broken again if he crossed her.
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What makes you think that Mab was wrong about Harry and Molly?
Mostly that she thought he was aware Molly had the talent and was ignoring her to leave her room to dig herself into enough trouble to need saving, as a strategy to get her into his debt. Mab thinks Harry had a cunning selfish plan to mold a loyal retainer, when he was actually just ignorant that Molly was getting into magic until the last moment.
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The only thing Mab got wrong was his foreknowledge of her magic. And you have to wonder about the Id Harry and what he knew and when.
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Mostly that she thought he was aware Molly had the talent and was ignoring her to leave her room to dig herself into enough trouble to need saving, as a strategy to get her into his debt. Mab thinks Harry had a cunning selfish plan to mold a loyal retainer, when he was actually just ignorant that Molly was getting into magic until the last moment.
Mab isn't all knowing, if she were, she wouldn't have 1] gotten Maeve under control before she got infected. 2] Would have known as soon as she was infected when she could have done something about it. She also would have figured out that even if it wasn't infected Lea having the Knife was a threat to her.. She sure would have known that the Knife was infected in the first place. Mab is very clever and plays three dimensional chess well, but she isn't an all knowing goddess.
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Don't confuse Mab handicaps at identifying nemfections with her ability to monitor Harry and those close to him. The Adversary is a creature of stealth who has been attacking the wall with the outsiders for a period long enough to accumulate "f**ktons" of bone at the outer gates.
Mab has consistently shown that she can follow events on the mortal plane if she wishes. And she has done so. She watched the Denarians kidnap Marcone, she appears to Harry no matter where he is, as when she finds him on the streets of Chicago in Small Favor to name him her emissary. She knew what was happening to Molly in Proven Guilty from Molly's first act of Black Magic. She got to Harry quick enough to assure that his death wouldn't be the final act in Harry's life. JB has even hinted at how it is done.
When Mab calls him out in Cold Days the event she points to, the one that started the ball rolling, is Harry's encounter with Molly in the tree house in Death Masks. She is fourteen and is about the time her magic rears its head. As a father it sends my creepy meter off the scale. I wonder if deep down, Harry's subconscious didn't sense what was coming. And then, suddenly, Harry finds the coin and isn't there when Molly will need a guide.
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2019, 06:53:14 PM »
Don't confuse Mab handicaps at identifying nemfections with her ability to monitor Harry and those close to him
Maybe she can keep up with Harry, but she totally failed with her daughter, which led to many of the problems her she is having now, and I am not talking about infections.
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The only thing Mab got wrong was his foreknowledge of her magic. And you have to wonder about the Id Harry and what he knew and when.
Id Harry isn't all-knowing either - even if he intuited she had a talent, he had no way of knowing Molly would get involved with dark magic. Plus, he cares about survival, so a cunning plan to go out on an extreme risk of death to pull Molly out of immediate trouble and then a considerable ongoing risk of death to supervise her probation seems like a stretch for how he'd want to get an assistant.
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Maybe she can keep up with Harry, but she totally failed with her daughter, which led to many of the problems her she is having now, and I am not talking about infections.
Daughters can be a handful, what can I say?Id Harry isn't all-knowing either - even if he intuited she had a talent, he had no way of knowing Molly would get involved with dark magic. Plus, he cares about survival, so a cunning plan to go out on an extreme risk of death to pull Molly out of immediate trouble and then a considerable ongoing risk of death to supervise her probation seems like a stretch for how he'd want to get an assistant.
What else could have happened to her, given her talent? But as with most things there is what he meant to do and what he did do. And he did what Mab said, even if it wasn't his intention.
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What else could have happened to her, given her talent? But as with most things there is what he meant to do and what he did do. And he did what Mab said, even if it wasn't his intention.
Twisted by Mab you mean, she played on Harry's over active guilt complex. Molly may have engaged in hero worship, but Harry never encouraged it, given Charity's feeling towards him he kept a pretty quiet profile at Michael's house. He had no way of knowing Molly had talent at all, he never knew about her mother until Molly's talent did come out. Once it did, he recognized where she was heading and was the one who got her to turn herself in.
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You can't twist something if there isn't anything there to twist. In Proven Guilty JB will open with a trial. Where Harry will complain about the the Councils lack of outreach to young people coming into their power. Yet Molly happens right under his nose. And as I said, intentions don't matter, what matters are outcomes. It's one thing to make decisions knowing that it will impact people, it is an altogether different thing to blunder into them like a bull in a china shop. Which is pre changes Harry.
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You can't twist something if there isn't anything there to twist. In Proven Guilty JB will open with a trial. Where Harry will complain about the the Councils lack of outreach to young people coming into their power. Yet Molly happens right under his nose. And as I said, intentions don't matter, what matters are outcomes. It's one thing to make decisions knowing that it will impact people, it is an altogether different thing to blunder into them like a bull in a china shop. Which is pre changes Harry.
Really? Right under his nose? First all, Harry isn't living at the Carpenter house, so no daily contact with Molly. From the sound of it, it might have even been a year or two since he saw her given the physical changes from pubescent young teen at thirteen or fourteen, to brick outhouse shaped sixteen year old.. When she calls from jail, the first thing she tells him is there has been a lot of trouble at home, mainly between her and her parents, as in Molly in full rebellion. No confession about using black magic yet, Harry tries to do the right thing by returning her to her parents. Harry had been avoiding Michael for a couple of years because of Lasciel.
So, under Harry's nose? No, nor did Molly say anything to him about her budding talent, it isn't until after she is rescued and safe at Father Forthills, that she begins to tell him about it, her abilty to do a veil for example, then instead of going to him for help and to ask questions, she choses to Barns&Noble for books on the subject, but they do not cover the Laws of Magic as set down by the White Council. Molly then proceeds to apply her own moral judgement coupled with ignorance to go into the mind of her friend to stop his drug addiction.. Which sends her down the primrose warlock path and turns her friend's brain to mush.
Harry again does the right thing as soon as she confesses to take her before the White Council, he then puts it all on the line for her, which is literally his head to save hers.
1] Harry hadn't seen Molly in a couple of years, he hadn't been to the Carpenter home, he hadn't talked to Michael. 2] When Molly discovered her talent, she chose not to look up the only wizard she knew to ask questions, she went to Barns&Noble instead. 3] Since Harry had no clue about Charity and the road she almost took, he would have no reason to be on the lookout for it showing up in her kids. Since before it reared it's ugly head, Charity would not allow such a subject to be objective debated in her house, the dangers of unsupervised talent just wouldn't have come up. Also until it almost cost her daughter her head, Charity wouldn't have allowed Harry to supervise Molly in the first place. No, none of this takes place under his nose, nor is he the blame for what Molly chose to do.
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Really? Right under his nose?
Pretty much, yep.
In the very city where Harry makes it clear to one and all (at least, one and all of the supernaturals) that this is HIS turf, and sorcerors & warlocks can expect to be confronted and killed.
With one of the families that Harry knows best, considers the father to be one of his closest friends, has seen the mother become involved because of his own investigations.
Harry made big claims about how the White Council "should" be finding these proto-warlocks before they go bad... and totally failed to notice the most-likely-for-him-to-notice young person becoming a warlock.
So yeah, that counts as "right under his nose."
Fortunately, he did get to her in time. We can tell because she went through her whole Rag Lady phase -- a serious crucible of fire -- without breaking, without going warlock.
But it took a tip-off from the Gatekeeper, and involvement from a serious Winterfae player (almost certainly Mab) for Harry to get there...
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Harry's insistence that the WC should be finding these budding wizards/potential warlocks applies to an organization with access to way more resources than Harry will ever have.
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It's odd don't you think, that everyone knew, but Harry? Mab certainly did. And so did Rashid. Harry made sure he couldn't know. And what was Mab's most telling point? It was that she had put Molly out of the reach of the Council, something that Harry couldn't do. Mab doesn't blame Harry, she simply juxtaposes what she had done to Molly against what Harry had been responsible for.
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Harry's insistence that the WC should be finding these budding wizards/potential warlocks applies to an organization with access to way more resources than Harry will ever have.
Also way more targets. If Harry can't find one in the closest group of children he has to a family, what hope does anyone have of scoring a 100% among people that don't know them who would rather keep their kids away from the weirdo in a robe.
Of course there was a Fallen Angel twisting Harry's mind at the time, so we can't be SURE it was all Harry.
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Also way more targets. If Harry can't find one in the closest group of children he has to a family, what hope does anyone have of scoring a 100% among people that don't know them who would rather keep their kids away from the weirdo in a robe.
Of course there was a Fallen Angel twisting Harry's mind at the time, so we can't be SURE it was all Harry.
Harry hadn't been around this family for a couple of years because of Michael and Lasciel's shadow in his head. If you are going to blame anyone, blame Charity who kept her talent and resultant run in with possible warlockhood to herself. She was so against it there was no way Molly could have gone to her when it first happened. If she hero worshiped Harry to the extent that Mab claimed, you'd think she would have, but she didn't.. Like the Korean Kid, out of ignorance or arrogance kept her talent to herself.
It's odd don't you think, that everyone knew, but Harry? Mab certainly did. And so did Rashid. Harry made sure he couldn't know. And what was Mab's most telling point? It was that she had put Molly out of the reach of the Council, something that Harry couldn't do. Mab doesn't blame Harry, she simply juxtaposes what she had done to Molly against what Harry had been responsible for.
Rashid didn't even know Molly until she was well grown, I doubt that he would have ignored her budding warlockhood. Then again if he was in the know about her, why didn't he put his head on the line for her and teach her himself? No, Harry couldn't make Molly the Winter Lady, but he did save her head and put his own on the line to save it. Also the only one who could have ended her time under the Doom was Molly. She never completely reformed as we saw in Turn Coat.
Harry's insistence that the WC should be finding these budding wizards/potential warlocks applies to an organization with access to way more resources than Harry will ever have.
Yes, and there in lies the problem.. The whole magical world is undercover, there is no serious education on the problem. So a kid like the Korean Kid or Molly slip through the cracks and don't show up on any radar until it is too late or nearly too late, damage is done and they lose their heads.
Charity says in Proven Guilty that her talent started to show when she was about sixteen. It appears that that was about the time that Molly's talent began to show as well. Harry wasn't around the family at that time, so how could he know? Because she came close to losing her own head, she had received warnings from Wardens, Charity tried to tell her how dangerous it was to mess with. Her answer was for Molly never to use it and it would go away, Molly disagreed and ran away from home. Molly didn't go to Harry for help, and neither did Charity. Not even Michael knew that Charity had talent and nearly went warlock.
I believe you are confusing "mistakes" Harry made by being too gentle with Molly's training with her going warlock before she became his apprentice. The first he is responsible for, the second he is not.
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Rashid didn't even know Molly until she was well grown, I doubt that he would have ignored her budding warlockhood. Then again if he was in the know about her, why didn't he put his head on the line for her and teach her himself? No, Harry couldn't make Molly the Winter Lady, but he did save her head and put his own on the line to save it. Also the only one who could have ended her time under the Doom was Molly. She never completely reformed as we saw in Turn Coat.
I suspect the Gatekeeper doesn't have the spare time to teach an apprentice. However had he not intervened, along with Mab, Molly would have been shortened. Do you think it was an accident that one of Molly's victims was in the can when Pell was attacked in Proven Guilty?
Also isn't a ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure.
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I suspect the Gatekeeper doesn't have the spare time to teach an apprentice. However had he not intervened, along with Mab, Molly would have been shortened. Do you think it was an accident that one of Molly's victims was in the can when Pell was attacked in Proven Guilty?
Also isn't a ounce of prevention better than a pound of cure.
That is no excuse on the Gatekeeper's part, it is the same excuse that the Merlin gave Harry about the Korean Kid. So the result is, lots of potential wizards go warlock and get the chop because the wizards don't have the time. So yeah, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, but if he didn't have the time he could have given Harry a heads up about Molly. It was still Harry that faced off against the Merlin at her trial, it was Harry that insisted that the Gatekeeper cast his vote, he took the hint and stalled for time because as a Senior Council member he was the only one that could. But until Harry's insistence he kept silent, he said nothing when Morgan moved to chop her head off until Harry insisted he cast his vote.
You are still missing the point, Harry hadn't had any contact with the Carpenter family for two years.
Charity never let anyone know, not even Michael that she ever had magical talent that might be passed on. When her talent manifested itself all she wanted Molly to do was abandon it. She never asked Harry for help with Molly, because of her own fears and prejudices against magic.
We've seen in Ghost Story that Mab is very capable of twisting things if it helps her to control Harry. As Uriel told him, Mab was lying she cannot control him liked she claimed. She is twisting the truth here as well, he isn't responsible for Molly going warlock. Yes, she was into hero worship and had a major teen aged crush on Harry, but that isn't his fault. Unless you are saying he shouldn't have saved Charity's life, helped Michael fight evil, recover from serious wounds at their house, let them name their youngest for him. If Molly had turned out vanilla human, it would all have come to nothing. If Harry had known it was possible that she had talent, he may have conducted himself a little differently towards her, but since Charity kept her secret and more or less forbade any serious debate, especially from him about magic. It didn't happen. In the end it still may not have made any difference. One good reason why Mab was putting the guild trip on Harry is she might fear the Molly/Harry combo, they could threaten her or at least mount successful challenges to her rule.
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Harry complains that the Council isn't doing enough to find all the kids going warlock. He expects the Council to locate some random kid developing powers, but he wasn't able to stop A KID HE KNOWS AND WHOSE HOUSE HE OCCASIONALLY SLEEPS AT from going warlock.
It turns out it's pretty hard. Whether it happened "right under Harry's nose" is a debate about what that phrase means, not Morris's point.
Molly didn't go to Dresden BECAUSE of the hero worship thing. It's stated in the text.
Rashid probably didn't know Molly was going to do black magic until it was too late to stop her or until she had already done it.
If any one person is to blame, it is Charity.
The Council should be blamed because they could make it easy for anyone to discover the Laws of Magic. I'm sure they could promulgate something that one: a budding practitioner could recognize as "real," two: could be easily discovered by said practitioner, and three: included the Laws without tearing down the masquerade. Would every soon to be warlock discover yourawizardwhatnow.com and stop? No. But, depending on how it's done, most probably would.
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Molly didn't go to Dresden BECAUSE of the hero worship thing. It's stated in the text.
As stated by Mab, but that doesn't make any sense does it? Molly wasn't an instant warlock, you'd think the first person she'd go to would be Harry when it awoke if it was about hero worship. I still think it was more of a guilt trip that Mab put on Harry, which we all know is easy to do. Let's also get this straight, Harry isn't responsible for Molly's hero worship. Let's face it, Molly thought Harry being a wizard was cool, Harry did do heroic things along with her father, saved her mother, her baby brother is named after him, Harry isn't a father figure, he is young enough to inspire romantic fantasies... You think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure? Mab may be that manipulative to engineer such a thing, but our Harry isn't.
Harry complains that the Council isn't doing enough to find all the kids going warlock. He expects the Council to locate some random kid developing powers, but he wasn't able to stop A KID HE KNOWS AND WHOSE HOUSE HE OCCASIONALLY SLEEPS AT from going warlock.
Except he hadn't been near the Carpenter home for a couple of years! It sounds like Molly's talent awakened about the same time that her mother's did, approximately 16... So if she didn't show any talent when Harry was in and about the Carpenter house, how is he to know? As stated the HUGE SECRET here is Charity kept her talent to herself. What is more when her daughter came to her, she proceeded to alienate her because she wanted her to ignore it so it would go away.
If any one person is to blame, it is Charity.
Yes, at the end of the day, that is where the blame lies. If she had been honest about her own experience and how dangerous untrained talent can be when Molly first came to her. It might have turned out differently. If Charity accepted the fact that being a wizard like Harry isn't an evil thing. If she hadn't made the mistake of thinking or rather had been more honest with herself that her own talent didn't fade because she simply ignored it but instead actively suppressed it, so told Molly to handle her talent in that manner.. Though suppressing this new found power was the last thing Molly wanted to do, things might have turned out differently. If Charity could have overcome her own prejudices against Harry and what he is and asked for help in the beginning, things might have turned out differently for Molly. And in Proven Guilty when Harry confronts her about coming clean about her talent, Charity admits it, and still wanted it kept secret, even from Michael.
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As stated by Mab, but that doesn't make any sense does it?
It's also in Ch. 47 of Proven Guilty, as stated by Harry.[I figured] that you wouldn't want to come up to your favorite rock star and start fumbling around on a guitar so that the first thing he thinks about you is that you're incompetent."
She shivered and blushed even more. "No. It wasn't like that..."
Sure it was.
Let's also get this straight, Harry isn't responsible for Molly's hero worship. ... You think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure?
When did I say any of that?
Except he hadn't been near the Carpenter home for a couple of years!
The point is that Harry is wrong that the Council could just find all these young talents before it was too late. He couldn't when he already knew the kid. How does he expect the Council to do what he couldn't when they don't even know the kid?
Your arguing that Harry isn't responsible. I, and I believe Morris, are arguing that Harry was wrong to think it was such an easy thing for the Council to find all these budding talents who the Council had no relationship. Harry having a pre-existing relationship with Molly and still not noticing is just evidence that it's not so easy to find these kids. I'm not saying it's evidence that it's Harry's fault she tried black magic. If you disagree with that argument, articulate that disagreement. I'm not going to defend a position that I'm accused of holding. (There's probably a word with less negative connotation than accused, but I have to run).
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The point is that Harry is wrong that the Council could just find all these young talents before it was too late. He couldn't when he already knew the kid. How does he expect the Council to do what he couldn't when they don't even know the kid?
But that still does not make him responsible for Molly since he wasn't around when her talent showed itself. Having said that, when he got on the Merlin over the Korean Kid he was frustrated and very upset to witness a kid get the chop.. Something he nearly fell victim to.. Actually both have a good point, the Merlin that there are too many kids with the talent, too few wizards to mentor them or step up to put their own heads on the line if the kid has begun the slide into darkness. Harry in that each potential warlock should have a fair trial, because they have devolved somewhat into a kangaroo court. Not even the Merlin can put a head back on the shoulders of some poor kid if a mistake is made, and while some are not salvageable, ones that are shouldn't lose his or her head because a wizard doesn't have the balls to step up and take responsibility.
When did I say any of that?
You said that Molly didn't go to Harry for help because of her hero worship of him. I said that made no sense, one would think it would give her more reason to go to him. What I am saying Harry never encouraged Molly's hero worship of him in the first place. He is what he is, as a young girl than teen, she thought being a wizard was cool, doing what Harry can do is cool, his bravery is cool, and last but not least while not as handsome perhaps as Thomas, Harry is still a good looking young guy. Natural for her to be smitten, I seriously doubt that Harry could do much about any of that.
[I figured] that you wouldn't want to come up to your favorite rock star and start fumbling around on a guitar so that the first thing he thinks about you is that you're incompetent."
She shivered and blushed even more. "No. It wasn't like that..."
Sure it was.
It's Harry's theory, but Molly, herself, says it wasn't. Even if he insists that it was, but he never gave her a chance to give her reason.. That is a mistake on his part, a good teacher should always listen and not jump to conclusions. He asked and answered his own question to her and assumed he was right.. He might be, but he needs to listen to Molly as well. Again while some of what Harry said to Molly may be true, the real blame falls on Charity. She is Molly's mother, she is the one that was headed down the warlock path before she was save from the dragon by Michael. She is the one so afraid of magic and prejudiced against Harry. Molly went to her first, what Harry describes is how a young teen might see it, not wanting to go to her idol.. But Molly did go to her mother first,Charity is an adult, Molly is her child, she could either have packed Molly up and went to see Harry, or go to Harry herself for advice on how to handle Molly's awoken talent. She did neither, she alienated Molly with her prejudice and fears, who then ran away in a rebellious state of mind that only peers her age as she saw it could understand. I think the real reason she didn't go to Harry first off wasn't the explanation that Harry gave, but because she knew he'd take her right back to her parents, the last place she wanted to go.
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It isn't about blame or responsibility. From Mab's perspective the story plays out exactly as she states it. Whatever Harry's intent, Mab's dialog in Cold Days represents the end point. The way things turned out. Harry may not have meant it to work out that way, but he's the only one who could know that.
Why Molly didn't go to Harry is about secrets and trusting. Harry's, Charity's and Molly's. Harry's fear of being tainted by the coin, Charity's shame, around her gift. Molly's teenage insecurity. Harry pulls away and becomes distant. Charity can't tell Michael why she and Molly are at loggerheads. Molly's natural fears and inhibitions as an adolescent. JB creates a perfect storm, with each being driven by who and what they are. None of them able to completely trust the people in their lives who could help them.
IMO one of the major points of starting and ending in the warehouse is to show Harry's journey to understanding the problem of identifying proto wizards before getting to the point of needing a trial. I think this is the basis of Harry's thinking when he decides to create the Paranet. Many eyes.
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IMO one of the major points of starting and ending in the warehouse is to show Harry's journey to understanding the problem of identifying proto wizards before getting to the point of needing a trial. I think this is the basis of Harry's thinking when he decides to create the Paranet. Many eyes.
Are you sure that Harry created it? I was under the impression it existed before he heard about it.
It isn't about blame or responsibility. From Mab's perspective the story plays out exactly as she states it. Whatever Harry's intent, Mab's dialog in Cold Days represents the end point. The way things turned out. Harry may not have meant it to work out that way, but he's the only one who could know that.
It is about context, it is about control on Mab's part, thus the guilt trip on Harry. We know that Harry can be very irrational about taking the blame for things that are not really his fault. "And it is all your fault!" Were the lies whispered to him by Lasciel, remember? Harry was totally pissed at Mab after what happened to Molly. Mab the master manipulator knows her knight very well and twisted what happened between Harry and Molly over the years to her advantage, shutting him up effectively. There were just enough grains of truth in what she said that she wasn't lying exactly, but neither was she telling the truth, and without an archangel standing by to whisper to the contrary, Harry bought it. She then said that she had done something Harry couldn't, put Molly out of reach of the Council by making her Winter Lady.. True, but that doesn't mean that Molly wouldn't have redeemed herself in time. So saved from the Council, but what of her very human soul? Mab was human once too.
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"You should know," I said. "I got reparations out of the White Court. A weregild for their dependents."
She blinked at me. "How?"
"My boyish charm. Can you get me contact information for the victims' families? I'll get somebody to get the money to them."
"Yes," she said. "Some of them didn't have any dependents. Like Anna."
I grunted and nodded. "I thought we might use that money to build something."
Elaine frowned at me. "Oh?"
I nodded. "We use the money. We expand the Ordo, build a network of contacts. A hotline for middle-class practitioners. We contact groups like the Ordo in cities all around the country. We put the word out that if people are in some kind of supernatural fix, they can get word of it onto the network. Maybe if something like this starts happening again, we can hear about it early and stomp on the fire before it grows. We teach self-defense classes. We help people coordinate, cooperate, support one another. We act."
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Quote from: Mira
Let's also get this straight, Harry isn't responsible for Molly's hero worship. ... You think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure?
Me:When did I say any of that?
You said that Molly didn't go to Harry for help because of her hero worship of him.
Clarification: When did I say "Harry is responsible for Molly's hero worship. I think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure."
Also, Charity isn't the only one at fault. Molly is as well. She had a perfect resource for learning about magic. She knows the world of magic is real. She knows it is dangerous. She isn't an innocent victim of circumstance. Are there mitigating factors? Are others also to blame? Sure, but that doesn't matter once actions with necessary consequences are taken.
Also, what Morris said.
I do think that Mab believed that Harry intended Molly to become his loyal vassal because faeries are alien in their thinking and sometimes they just can't understand mortals. Put another way, I think Mab thought Harry did that because that's what Mab would have done. I'm not willing to dig up the scene to analyze it right now.
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I do think that Mab believed that Harry intended Molly to become his loyal vassal because faeries are alien in their thinking and sometimes they just can't understand mortals. Put another way, I think Mab thought Harry did that because that's what Mab would have done. I'm not willing to dig up the scene to analyze it right now.
Yes, it is, but at the same time I think she also understands that by saying it she is guilt tripping Harry, thus controlling him.
Clarification: When did I say "Harry is responsible for Molly's hero worship. I think Harry deliberately set any of that up so Molly would see him as a heroic figure."
Huh? Are you saying he did deliberately or he didn't?
Also, Charity isn't the only one at fault. Molly is as well. She had a perfect resource for learning about magic. She knows the world of magic is real. She knows it is dangerous. She isn't an innocent victim of circumstance. Are there mitigating factors? Are others also to blame? Sure, but that doesn't matter once actions with necessary consequences are taken.
No body says she is.. She knows it, that is why she didn't agree with Harry's explanation as to
why she didn't go to him right off, it's complicated, all mixed up with teenage emotions, hormones, and family dynamics.
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Huh? Are you saying he did deliberately or he didn't?
You implied I believed Harry deliberately entrapped Molly by doing all the things Mab said in Cold Days because I said Harry had a better opportunity to stop Molly from going warlock than the Council has at stopping some random kid from going warlock. One thing has nothing to do with the other, so I asked when did I say that Harry deliberately entrapped Molly. You responded by saying that I said Molly didn't go to Harry because of her hero worship of him.
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You implied I believed Harry deliberately entrapped Molly by doing all the things Mab said in Cold Days because I said Harry had a better opportunity to stop Molly from going warlock than the Council has at stopping some random kid from going warlock. One thing has nothing to do with the other, so I asked when did I say that Harry deliberately entrapped Molly. You responded by saying that I said Molly didn't go to Harry because of her hero worship of him.
My argument is about what Mab said..