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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: morriswalters on October 08, 2019, 11:11:39 AM

Title: New short story
Post by: morriswalters on October 08, 2019, 11:11:39 AM
In one word. Meh.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Yuillegan on October 08, 2019, 12:22:46 PM
What did you find unappealing about it?

Anything interesting catch your eye?
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: morriswalters on October 08, 2019, 02:22:30 PM
This reminds me of a gourmet dinner without spices.  You can see where it could be a taste treat, but without spices it's meh.  It might be fun if he contracted this one out to someone like, maybe Larry Correia, who could run with it.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: 123Chikadee on October 08, 2019, 07:13:29 PM
@morriswalters: So, that's the synopsis? Well that is disappointing. I really hope that turns out to be incorrect.   
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Yuillegan on October 08, 2019, 10:30:34 PM
That's a shame. I thought the Goodman Grey one was out soon and this was it.

But this looks like Harry just being unreasonably difficult to work with while interacting with Marcone.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: morriswalters on October 09, 2019, 01:26:00 AM
Well, maybe the problem is that Goodman Grey isn't well developed.  Everybody else had multiple books.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: toodeep on October 09, 2019, 06:40:35 PM
I agree it was meh.  It was the first look into the world of Goodman Grey, and it was extremely uninformative.  It might have had to have been to keep his mystique, but it made the story very bland.  It gave no information about his past, no real additional information about his abilities or limits, and very little about his goals/methods; other than he does generally appear to try to be a "good" monster, and his price of 1 dollar with Dresden wasn't a one-off, it is what he charges all his clients.  The real question is, would he be as easy to hire on a job to go kill a school full of children, or some other "monstrous" act (since he acknowledges being a monster).  We get no idea what his ethical goals/requirements really are.  How does his apparent desire to be "good" square with the immediate feeling that he give the KotC that he is "very bad?"
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on October 09, 2019, 07:31:15 PM
He claims to be doing good to pay the Rent,
(click to show/hide)

The story was meh. One thing I noticed was that Grey referred to magazines as such instead of clips like Harry always seems to. This implies that Jim knows the difference, but Harry doesn't.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 09, 2019, 08:53:45 PM


So are you saying not to waste my money on the anthology? :o
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: morriswalters on October 09, 2019, 10:13:40 PM
I don't regret buying it.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Snark Knight on October 09, 2019, 11:34:35 PM
It was alright, but the lack of revealing any real backstory or lore held it back somewhat. Viti was interesting in a way - I wonder if she might have some superhuman heritage too, with that kind of shooting skill.

Was the line about Marcone's "big dumb Einherjar bodyguard" a hint that Hendricks died and signed on with Monoc to stay in the game / stay with Gard? Or has Hendricks been replaced by an Einherjar? If he was referring to Hendricks at all, it's vaguely amusing that Grey makes the same mistake of underestimating him that Harry does.


That's a shame. I thought the Goodman Grey one was out soon and this was it.
But this looks like Harry just being unreasonably difficult to work with while interacting with Marcone.

Grey's POV isn't really that Harry-like, actually. He's closer to Marcone in Even Hand, trying to bury everything under a just-business veneer, but with the same avenging streak toward child abusers.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on October 10, 2019, 03:43:23 PM

So are you saying not to waste my money on the anthology? :o
I didn't pay for it. At some point I must have gone with not two day shipping on prime, so I had a $5 credit available for a kindle purchase. It was only $4.99. It's a pretty common option, and I occasionally choose it when I need the thing by a specific date (a nibling's birthday), and two day shipping is unnecessary.

Also there are other stories because it's an anthology. I haven't read any of them. Has anyone else, and are they worth it?
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Arjan on October 10, 2019, 04:54:36 PM
I read the first story and I liked it.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 10, 2019, 08:56:17 PM
I liked this story more than some of the recent ones, probably because I really, really like Goodman Grey, but I wanted to know more about him. The problem, I feel, is that even when the story is told in first person, it is not really a point of view. He just describes the things he does, more or less like a third person narrator would do. With a few minor exceptions about his appreciation of her secretary's body (ugh) and a couple of suggestions of his fury at the thugs, we don't know any of his feelings. A little more inner monologue about what he was thinking/feeling instead of the plain description of his actions would have helped a lot. Also, I would have liked at least a moment of, I don't know, vulnerability or something like that. He seems just too perfect and accomplished, and that is not so interesting to read.
I still like the character and I want to know more about him and about the new character. I would love to see GG in PT, interacting with Harry again. I wish we could have glimpsed at what GG actually thinks about him.
Many things of the story were great, the small touches, like how he learnt Spanish long ago, how he felt that Viti was doing well and things like that, but as morris said, it was like a gourmet dish without spices.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Snark Knight on October 10, 2019, 11:15:10 PM
Also there are other stories because it's an anthology. I haven't read any of them. Has anyone else, and are they worth it?

I'm maybe 60% through the rest of it. Quality varies widely, but there are some good ones.


The problem, I feel, is that even when the story is told in first person, it is not really a point of view. He just describes the things he does, more or less like a third person narrator would do.

Yep. I wasn't expecting an explanation on The Rent or anything that significant, but a POV short without telling us anything more than we already knew about the POV character seems a bit skimpy. I understand Jim may be saving up his material for the Grey spinoff novel he's talked about in some event videos, but this would have been a good opportunity to drop something that would build a little more excitement for that.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 10, 2019, 11:33:32 PM
A Grey spinoff novel? *perks ears*
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 11, 2019, 10:35:48 AM


  What is the name of the book?  I haven't decided whether or not to charge up my Kindle.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on October 11, 2019, 04:49:04 PM
@Mira: Parallel Worlds, available at: https://books2read.com/u/m0k2Nl (https://books2read.com/u/m0k2Nl) (Technically, that's a link to links where it is available).

@Dina: I think there is a lot of suggestion about Grey in there.

He isn't as monstrous as he claims (he is probably pretty monstrous anyway). He isn't doing what he does just to pay the Rent. It looks like he is trying to rehabilitate Viti to a certain extent. He seems to take this job personally.

He's vulnerable. Marcone could kill him. Attacks cause him a great deal of pain.

There is a lot to think about. While Goodman's not my favorite, I too would have liked more.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 11, 2019, 08:08:15 PM


Thanks ;D
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 11, 2019, 08:29:01 PM
I should have been clearer. Yes, we learnt things about how he works, how he does the shapeshifting, how he hurts, but nothing feels like vulnerability, just descriptions. I mean, we don't "feel" that he is in pain, he just "says" that he is pain, but it does not seem to bother him enough. And in skin game we already guessed he really cared for more than paying rent. I don't know, I insist, the story is told from his POV but it feels like a third person narrator. Harry informed us more about him that this story.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Snark Knight on October 12, 2019, 12:49:40 AM
A Grey spinoff novel? *perks ears*

Jim talked about doing one or more under the title Monster LLC in some of the videos a while back. ('When you're in trouble, you hire Harry. When you're in REAL trouble, you hire a monster.')
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 12, 2019, 08:26:19 PM
I should have been clearer. Yes, we learnt things about how he works, how he does the shapeshifting, how he hurts, but nothing feels like vulnerability, just descriptions. I mean, we don't "feel" that he is in pain, he just "says" that he is pain, but it does not seem to bother him enough. And in skin game we already guessed he really cared for more than paying rent. I don't know, I insist, the story is told from his POV but it feels like a third person narrator. Harry informed us more about him that this story.

I think my problem is all the stories are written in the first person, the writer is Jim, and honestly
his style doesn't vary all that much.  Perhaps it cannot be helped, but all the stories no matter who is telling it sounds like Harry to me.  However that just could be me. 

The most interesting thing about the story is the reveal as to whom the real monster is.   Goodman is a shapeshifter, he can get very ugly, be very dangerous, do terrible things, but in his heart, I don't think he is evil.  His associate is a cold blooded killer, she admits it freely, but Goodman doesn't think she had a choice..  Then there is Marcone, handsome, smooth, a mobster, who's helped Harry a time or two, and because a child was collateral damage on a hit he did a long time ago, seemingly he cares about children.  He sends Goodman to save some children... But then he gets pissed when he finds out that Goodman went a step further eliminating some of the "customers" of the child sex ring, because Marcone depends on them to run his "business."  So who is the real monster here?
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: 123Chikadee on October 12, 2019, 10:23:52 PM
Yeah 1st person pov is really tricky to write. To me, Thomas sounded different enough, but Marcone sounds flat.
Huh, that sounds interesting. I think I'm one of the few people who isn't impressed with Marcone's children are off limits attitude. Caring that kids get hurt shouldn't be a bench mark for moral behavior.
But yeah that story sounds pretty interesting. I was hoping for something a bit more from Goodman Grey, but this could be good enough. I'll still have to wait awhile before I can read it, sadly.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Snark Knight on October 13, 2019, 01:01:22 AM
He sends Goodman to save some children... But then he gets pissed when he finds out that Goodman went a step further eliminating some of the "customers" of the child sex ring, because Marcone depends on them to run his "business."  So who is the real monster here?

I don't disagree that he was pissed about the loss of business assets, but what he says on the phone call probably wasn't the only thing going through his head there. If Grey had simply turned over the photos, Marcone might have delayed killing the johns until he had replacements lined up, but it would only have been a matter of time - writing it off entirely was never in the cards.

But by taking the initiative away from him, Grey created a conflict between rule one (kids are off limits) and rule two (nobody just gets away with attacking his organization or his territory). That's got to be a factor in his annoyance, but it's not one he can talk about openly - "I choose to give you a pass for the extra killings of my men" is too close to "I'm not confident I can enforce punishment on you". And the real number one rule of all monsters is you don't show weakness to another monster.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 13, 2019, 09:48:13 AM
I agree about Marcone feeling flat and Thomas sounded different. I will add than Molly sounds different too and Murphy was...well, different but a little weird. I have to admit I just want to read more Harry.

I agree Marcone is the monster here, but I always thought that. But I still think he is redeemable, perhaps thanks to Harry's influence.

As much as I like to read a lot more about Grey and a entire book about him would be great, I rather have Jin writing more Dresden before doing any spin-offs.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 13, 2019, 12:22:38 PM
Quote
I agree Marcone is the monster here, but I always thought that. But I still think he is redeemable, perhaps thanks to Harry's influence.


   I used to think that he was redeemable as well, but his character has taken a decidedly selfish darker turn since Changes.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: 123Chikadee on October 13, 2019, 05:27:23 PM
@Mira: How so?
I hope that Harry gets less interested in stating 'well at least he protects children' and just the whole 'he's a defender of Chicago, in his own way' attitude. Marcone still profits from human suffering despite making it more streamlined. Maybe Harry losing that attitude could end up being a plot point about how he'd need to dismantle these power systems that are bad despite seeming the lesser evil. 
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Snark Knight on October 13, 2019, 06:00:48 PM
Maybe Harry losing that attitude could end up being a plot point about how he'd need to dismantle these power systems that are bad despite seeming the lesser evil.

Destroying the red court seemed like eliminating the greater evil, and ended up making everything worse. Ditto egging Lara on to take charge of the white court. Maybe Harry should work on getting smarter before dismantling any more power systems.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 13, 2019, 11:54:22 PM
Destroying the red court seemed like eliminating the greater evil, and ended up making everything worse. Ditto egging Lara on to take charge of the white court. Maybe Harry should work on getting smarter before dismantling any more power systems.

   Except Harry really didn't have much of a choice, did he?  It was his daughter, him, and Eb, or the Red Court..  I guess he could have sacrificed himself and Eb without too much trouble, but little Maggie was a total innocent in this.  If you are going to blame anyone, blame the Red King who set up the spell to begin with..  He should have known that there was a danger that a good wizard could figure out a way to reverse it. 
Quote
Mira: How so?

Marcone thinks only of Marcone..  Having Goodman save a few children is great, but to be critical of him getting rid of those who'd abuse those kids and would go on to abuse more kids if they weren't stopped, because they served his needs is evil.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: GWPfark on October 14, 2019, 02:32:40 AM
Not read it yet, but Marcine likely knows who will replace the people killed. He isn't Harry, he actually plans things out.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: morriswalters on October 14, 2019, 03:49:45 AM
Marcone is much like a mantle.  You can kill the man but you can't kill what he represents. So if Harry or Grey killed him there would soon be another like him or worse.  Grey actually calls out something like this in the story.  And this has been pointed out multiple times over the series.
Destroying the red court seemed like eliminating the greater evil, and ended up making everything worse. Ditto egging Lara on to take charge of the white court. Maybe Harry should work on getting smarter before dismantling any more power systems.
This is precisely what Changes and Ghost Story are really about, unintended consequences, versus doing the right thing.  Some fights aren't worth winning.

Also about Rent.  Viti has no moral grounding, the concept of Rent as a moral obligation would not occur to her, this is JB blowing smoke.  She's appears to be talking about the real rent on the office.  Since Grey is at least a contemporary of Margaret I would assume that compound interest has made him wealthy.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: 123Chikadee on October 14, 2019, 05:53:45 AM
Who said anything about killing him? I haven't read it yet, but I'm curious about what Grey says about it. I do like that this series is so complex.
Oh, I agree about Changes and Ghost Story being about untended consequences. Though, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about power systems and their dismantling.
Huh that's interesting. Well, I'm still a little disappointed that we didn't get to learn more about Margaret. 
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Arjan on October 14, 2019, 11:07:38 AM
Marcone is much like a mantle.  You can kill the man but you can't kill what he represents. So if Harry or Grey killed him there would soon be another like him or worse.  Grey actually calls out something like this in the story.  And this has been pointed out multiple times over the series.This is precisely what Changes and Ghost Story are really about, unintended consequences, versus doing the right thing.  Some fights aren't worth winning.
It is far more complicated than that. The red court had to be stopped. Harry was not the only one who thought that and if Uriel, Vadderung and Mab work together to accomplish this it was not just done for Harry's daughter.

The red court was by that time an out of control destabilizing factor and the most active visible outsider pawn. Yes a lot of fallout and Harry's suicide meant he was not there to help mitigating it but all in all it was a good thing. Another bunch of violent psychotics trying to fill the gap does not diminish that in any way. It brings them to the open and we can handle them in the next books until the outsiders run out of pawns.

The Fomor would have attacked anyway. They had supported the red court before and their attack was nicely coordinated with the red court attack in changes. If the red court was not destroyed the white council would have had to fight the red court and the Fomor both.

Harry tends to blame himself to much and for the wrong things. His let the world burn attitude was wrong and did damage Molly and his suicide let to all the problems highlighted in ghost story but destroying the red court was not a bad decision.

I think people fall for one of Jim's writing tricks. Harry is an unreliable narrator. Later in Skin Game Michael did approve of the destruction of the red court and he understood that the destruction of so much evil did not happen without fallout.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: morriswalters on October 14, 2019, 02:17:08 PM
Who said anything about killing him? I haven't read it yet, but I'm curious about what Grey says about it. I do like that this series is so complex.
Oh, I agree about Changes and Ghost Story being about untended consequences. Though, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about power systems and their dismantling.
Huh that's interesting. Well, I'm still a little disappointed that we didn't get to learn more about Margaret. 
There are implied threats by both Marcone and Grey.  Grey himself has a conversation about destroying the gang behind the pedophiles.  Stating that he isn't a crusader and that even if he did, something else would take it's place.  Harry draws the same conclusion about Marcone in the series.

When and if you read the story, pay particular attention to the last act.  It displays the general conceit behind a series about a shape shifter.  I assume, perhaps falsely, that this story was an audition.

@Arjan
The Merlin had already telegraphed his intent to root out the Reds, tree and branch.  Assuming that he was really intending to do so and had the capability, then Harry's quest can be reduced to it's essentials, that is, to save his daughter over all else.  I don't want to wander too far afield, but the idea is not was it moral to destroy the Reds, but was the price Harry was willing to pay, too high?  Jim uses Molly as the example, but the lesson applies to all his allies.  Is it right to ask your friends to make a sacrifice for a goal the is essentially selfish?  Even if they seem to be willing to do so?
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Arjan on October 14, 2019, 03:01:00 PM

@Arjan
The Merlin had already telegraphed his intent to root out the Reds, tree and branch.  Assuming that he was really intending to do so and had the capability, then Harry's quest can be reduced to it's essentials, that is, to save his daughter over all else.  I don't want to wander too far afield, but the idea is not was it moral to destroy the Reds, but was the price Harry was willing to pay, too high?  Jim uses Molly as the example, but the lesson applies to all his allies.  Is it right to ask your friends to make a sacrifice for a goal the is essentially selfish?  Even if they seem to be willing to do so?
That was the merlins intention but whether his actions were actually effective is debatable. I do not think the merlin was part of the grey council or was involved in Vadderungs planning.  Harry did not think the merlin was effectively involved and the grey council was as far as he knew only involved after his chat with Ebenezer when Harry revealed his daughters identity and the place of sacrifice. The merlin was not cooperative so his intentions were not part of the calculation.

Uriel was pretty clear that is was wrong to bring Molly but that does not mean it was wrong to bring his other friends. Their problems started after Changes with Harry's suicide. Using Molly for that was probably even a greater problem than bringing her to Chichen Itza.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 14, 2019, 03:33:33 PM
Quote
Uriel was pretty clear that is was wrong to bring Molly but that does not mean it was wrong to bring his other friends. Their problems started after Changes with Harry's suicide. Using Molly for that was probably even a greater problem than bringing her to Chichen Itza.

I totally agree here,  while bringing her to Chichen Itza was hard on her, it was totally her decision.  Harry tried to talk her out of it, but she insisted..   Harry's suicide was another matter, while it too was her decision, she paid a huge price in the guilt she carried for aiding his death.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Snark Knight on October 14, 2019, 04:05:16 PM
There are implied threats by both Marcone and Grey.  Grey himself has a conversation about destroying the gang behind the pedophiles.  Stating that he isn't a crusader and that even if he did, something else would take it's place.

I find it interesting that Marcone represents a possible mortal threat to Grey, but he later dismisses annihilating another major syndicate because it would be tedious and ineffective, rather than existentially dangerous.

And Viti's assessment made it sound like she was concerned about him being an on-the-spot danger to Grey, not just that he could hire Monoc contractors capable of threatening him. Has Marcone got into regularly carrying enchanted weapons or something?
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: g33k on October 14, 2019, 06:49:46 PM
... And Viti's assessment made it sound like she was concerned about him being an on-the-spot danger to Grey, not just that he could hire Monoc contractors capable of threatening him. Has Marcone got into regularly carrying enchanted weapons or something?

Jim has already noted that -- if they only knew what they were doing, and could do it without freakout (which is part of who Marcone is, after all) -- ordinary mortals could be a serious threat to any supernatural force in the world.

Grey is FAR from an exception to that; he can be taken out with mundane weapons.  For someone with Marcone's resources, it wouldn't even be challenging.

If I had Marcone's resources, I'd probably do it in stages of overwhelming firepower.

1 - Put him down with an AA-12 (autofire shotgun) or similar.  Yes, GG can get up from that in moments; so keep him down by pouring more autofire into him as he's down (probably another shooter or two, so not even any letup to reload); this will do more and more damage, keeping him down/disabled.  A shotgun blast won't kill him, but if you got enough AA-12 shooters it probably would:  they can do damage faster than he can regenerate, until they are literally dismembering him, and then destroying the pieces, with so much autofire.

But if that's not enough...

2 - Get another person to add incendiaries.  Napalm, phosphorus grenades, incendiary shotgun loads, etc.  Fire purifies, destroys magic... Ash doesn't regenerate or shapeshift.  Get more people -- in hazmat firesuits -- to keep shooting and burning.

But hey, ridiculous overkill...

3 - While still violently aflame, run over him with a smooth steel road-roller, immediately re-lighting (if not still violently aflame) when the roller clears him.

OK, that was more Loony Tunes than Dresden Files (I bet Harry would approve of anything Loony Tunes in combat, though).  Still, to return to the more James-Bond-Supervillain vibe that Marcone's got going on...

4 - Pour something caustic over the flaming body... VERY caustic.  Fluoroantimonic acid looks good, since we've got the hazmat firesuits already...

Finally, remember that Gard's consulting for Marcone.  She can tell him any vulnerabilities of a Naagloshii-scion.  Maybe salt, or silver... but those are more Old World than American Southwest.  Still, I'm sure there's something.  Add it to the mix above, if inclined.

But honestly, that much concentrated destruction would do for most anything that still relies upon a body.  Mavra, LoON, even Mab; maybe even Vadderung?  I leave off entities like Uriel and Ferrovax, who seem to create whatever body they want whenever they want one.
 
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on October 14, 2019, 08:03:49 PM
The reason Harry isn't going after Marcone, or Lara for that matter, isn't that he thinks they aren't bad or they're better than the devil he doesn't know. He isn't going after him because he has worse monsters to deal with first, and probably always will, at least in the case of Marcone. Marcone is probably going to die of old age before Harry has the scratched off all the "worse" monsters on his list.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 14, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
I just wanted to comment that I agree with Arjan´s opinion in this.
About Marcone, I don't necessarily want him to be killed or completely out of power but sometimes is tiring to see him always as powerful and in control. I would like to see him out of his league or metaphorically in the dark about something for a while, preferably with Harry being in a better situation. Let me be clear, Marcone is a great character and I don't want to see him weakened for ever, just in some specific moment. He has the soul of a tiger and that is admirable, but he is still a bad guy and the hero of our story is Harry  :P
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: morriswalters on October 14, 2019, 09:01:07 PM
@g33k
To kill him you must see him before he sees you!  Watch out for that 6 year old!
@Arjan
They were adults but Harry lied to them.  He lied to his brother, Murphy and others.  Not exactly what I expect from my friends.  The person he was trying to lie to, Mab, caught him in any case.  And even though he a fallen had nudged him that doesn't forgive the lie.

Prior to his fall Harry had been a little out of his mind and his position as stated was that no matter what, no matter who got hurt, no matter what ethical shortcuts he had to take, his daughter was the most important person in the room.  And everybody else could burn.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 15, 2019, 11:39:34 AM
@g33k
To kill him you must see him before he sees you!  Watch out for that 6 year old!
@Arjan
They were adults but Harry lied to them.  He lied to his brother, Murphy and others.  Not exactly what I expect from my friends.  The person he was trying to lie to, Mab, caught him in any case.  And even though he a fallen had nudged him that doesn't forgive the lie.

Prior to his fall Harry had been a little out of his mind and his position as stated was that no matter what, no matter who got hurt, no matter what ethical shortcuts he had to take, his daughter was the most important person in the room.  And everybody else could burn.

I realize I am going way off topic, but for starters this is way too simplistic.   Yes, Harry said all of those things, and in the moment believed them.  However this isn't some horrible moral backslide on
Harry's part..  It is a normal human reaction that most parents would have when it comes to saving their kid.   Also Harry was made the goat in the war against the Reds, Harry even buys into the idea that he started it..  He didn't,  his reaction to what happened to Susan may have been a spark, but cooler heads could have prevailed.   1] Harry didn't train Victor Sells to be a sorcerer, someone else did that or guided him to where those books to learn this stuff could be found. Someone else or thing did that, who knew very well where they were going with this.  2] Harry didn't direct Victor Sells to rip out the heart of a beloved friend of Bianca by remote control... Nor to be fair did Sells without direction from someone else, know the significance of the young woman who's heart was exploded. 3]  Harry didn't raise Bianca, most likely known as unstable to begin with to RC royalty, someone else did.. 4]  Harry didn't make the unstable Bianca murder her beloved secretary and then swear revenge on Harry because "he made her do it.." 5] If you will remember Harry didn't want to go to the fricking party in the first place suspecting a trap.  6] He didn't steal or forge the invitation or ask Susan to do it.. He warned her explicitly how dangerous vamps were, but she did it anyway and went to that party. 7]  Harry did screw up with the Holy Sword trying to kill Lea with it..  However he didn't take it to the party to trade for that infected Knife, Lea did that on her own. 8] At the party it wasn't Harry who tried to sacrifice an innocent with a Holy Sword to unmake it.. 9] Why did Mavera block Harry, Michael, and Susan's exit after the Sword was recovered?  When all hell broke lose, should Harry have just sat down and died along with his friends, and more importantly a Holy Sword would then fall back into vamp hands..  10] Was it Harry who half turned Susan?  Oh and let's not forget Nightmare who also had a hand in this or Mavra who chose some take out meals to take along as she went her merry way after the smoke cleared.  11] How did they think Harry would react after his beloved was half turned? Yet it was done anyway,  Bianca did get what was coming to her..  While yes, that may have been the spark, the fuel for the fire had long been piled..

On what the Merlin wanted to do and told Harry to do in Changes..  The Merlin was using Harry, he saw it as an opportunity, seeing it as either riding himself of Harry or the Red Court, either way he wins.  Last but not least it wasn't Harry who set up that spell that took out the Red Court, he merely reversed it..  It wasn't him or even Susan who was playing a deeper game here, it was Martin..  Giving her the knowledge about Martin may have set Susan off to make the kill him thus setting up the reversal, but it was Martin who was playing her and the Red Court for his own gain..  However it wasn't her that was about to murder her baby, it was the Red King, she willingly sacrificed herself to stop that.   Oh we need to back up a step or two yet again,  Peabody most likely set up the murder of Simon, who was one of Eb's dear friends, who then took his revenge out by pulling down a satellite killing some important vamps.. Which in turn compelled the Red King to set up his generational spell to take out Eb and his kin... Oh back up another minute, it was Susan who refused to completely cut herself off from little Maggie that led to Red King to her that enabled him  to set up the generational spell, that was the beginning of the end for the Red Cout..  Not simple at all..  For all we know it may turn out that it was the Formor who have been behind this from the get go by enabling Victor Sells.

Back to the new short story,  there are a heck of a lot more kids than the few Goodman saved.  If Marcone really was a champion of exploited kids, he'd set up an army to save all the exploited kids in his territory.. He is not, he may have been trying to send a message, but it wasn't the one he planned on..  And yeah, it is a lot more complicated..
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on October 15, 2019, 05:07:37 PM
I just wanted to comment that I agree with Arjan´s opinion in this.
About Marcone, I don't necessarily want him to be killed or completely out of power but sometimes is tiring to see him always as powerful and in control. I would like to see him out of his league or metaphorically in the dark about something for a while, preferably with Harry being in a better situation. Let me be clear, Marcone is a great character and I don't want to see him weakened for ever, just in some specific moment. He has the soul of a tiger and that is admirable, but he is still a bad guy and the hero of our story is Harry  :P
We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.

To add to Mira's point, Shiro says that the war was coming no matter what the White Council, or Harry, did. Harry may have saved the White Council by setting the war off earlier than the Reds were prepared for.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 15, 2019, 05:29:47 PM
We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.

To add to Mira's point, Shiro says that the war was coming no matter what the White Council, or Harry, did. Harry may have saved the White Council by setting the war off earlier than the Reds were prepared for.

  Yup, that and the general belief that the Red Court was the cat's paw of a more powerful group.  They were used and set up, object of which being to take out a star born and the White Council with him. 
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: g33k on October 15, 2019, 10:25:44 PM
Mostly I agree, but this point is rather weak:

... 4]  Harry didn't make the unstable Bianca murder her beloved secretary and then swear revenge on Harry because "he made her do it.."

He kind of did "make her," at least by the way Vamps judge things.
I realize the Vamp POV here is warped and evil; but by their twisted logic, "it's the wizard's fault" is a valid perspective.
 
It's one of the things that make the serious power-players so potent, is that they can recognize the internal rules that let them manipulate other powers.  Harry does it, somewhat.  I presume the Black Council was doing it much moreso, there.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: 123Chikadee on October 16, 2019, 12:04:29 AM
Well, I don't mean to harp on this and I keep this into a generalization, b/c it's a little left field. But just because taking out a bad person who'll just have someone else just as bad, doesn't mean that the first bad person shouldn't be taken out of power. To me, that's just a defeatist way of thinking. By that logic, why do anything to try and make the world a better place; you may as well sit there like a bump on a log. I'd take Grey's assertions with a grain of salt, since he is benefiting from things being the way they are.
Though, yeah it is pretty interesting that Grey tries to be careful with how he provokes Marcone  because of how mortals can be dangerous. Does Grey make any mention of Monoc or BFG as a reason to play nice?
Hm, as for 'Changes' I would posit that Harry's friends do bear some measure of responsibility, at least in the sense of enabling his 'burn the world for the sake of one person' attitude. They could have at least tried to talk him down or curb it. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have been nice to see them try. I'd say that while Molly had choices as well,  the fact that Harry is her teacher and is in a position of power over her means that she isn't in a strong place in this scenario.
Yeah, 4) is a bit thin. Though Bianca didn't have to kill her secretary and could have exercised enough self control to not kill someone. Though by that same token she'd just end up losing control and killing someone else. It might be someone she won't get as upset about it. Maybe even to the point of not holding a grudge with Harry, but either way there's still a dead person.
I hope that at some point Harry can have enough character to development to say, 'no this is not my fault' with something.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 16, 2019, 12:29:42 AM
We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.

I agree about Fool Moon, but I don't see the rest as weakness. And I don't remember him being afraid of Harry, but he respects him more than Billy or Murphy.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Arjan on October 16, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Well, I don't mean to harp on this and I keep this into a generalization, b/c it's a little left field. But just because taking out a bad person who'll just have someone else just as bad, doesn't mean that the first bad person shouldn't be taken out of power. To me, that's just a defeatist way of thinking. By that logic, why do anything to try and make the world a better place; you may as well sit there like a bump on a log. I'd take Grey's assertions with a grain of salt, since he is benefiting from things being the way they are.
Though, yeah it is pretty interesting that Grey tries to be careful with how he provokes Marcone  because of how mortals can be dangerous. Does Grey make any mention of Monoc or BFG as a reason to play nice?
Hm, as for 'Changes' I would posit that Harry's friends do bear some measure of responsibility, at least in the sense of enabling his 'burn the world for the sake of one person' attitude. They could have at least tried to talk him down or curb it. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have been nice to see them try. I'd say that while Molly had choices as well,  the fact that Harry is her teacher and is in a position of power over her means that she isn't in a strong place in this scenario.
Yeah, 4) is a bit thin. Though Bianca didn't have to kill her secretary and could have exercised enough self control to not kill someone. Though by that same token she'd just end up losing control and killing someone else. It might be someone she won't get as upset about it. Maybe even to the point of not holding a grudge with Harry, but either way there's still a dead person.
I hope that at some point Harry can have enough character to development to say, 'no this is not my fault' with something.
Harry was a warlock and felt the pull of it. He was teached by Ebenezar not in the first place to develop his magic but more importantly to keep it in check. He has some coping mechanisms to stay on the safe site. Most importantly not use his magic for petty personal gain like heating his shower and taking more blame than necessary, doubting himself. It is now part of his nature now and difficult to resist. But it is perfectly understandable, it is better than being beheaded.

I don't think Harry's friends were as aware of his lets the world burn attitude as we are, we read his first person pov account after all and they did not. They saw a friend who helped them many times in huge need of help so of course they helped.

We do not know that much about Grey's motivation but the one dollar fee jobs probably have unwritten rules. He is not just cheap labour for everyone.

With Harry he can just ask for a favor in turn and he know Harry will deliver if doing so is in accordance with Harry's rules but with Marcone he has to handle it differently.

Also because he has to show strength and independance to Marcone without creating too much conflict. It is a delicate balance.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 16, 2019, 12:55:44 PM
Quote
Hm, as for 'Changes' I would posit that Harry's friends do bear some measure of responsibility, at least in the sense of enabling his 'burn the world for the sake of one person' attitude. They could have at least tried to talk him down or curb it. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have been nice to see them try. I'd say that while Molly had choices as well,  the fact that Harry is her teacher and is in a position of power over her means that she isn't in a strong place in this scenario.
Yeah, 4) is a bit thin. Though Bianca didn't have to kill her secretary and could have exercised enough self control to not kill someone. Though by that same token she'd just end up losing control and killing someone else. It might be someone she won't get as upset about it. Maybe even to the point of not holding a grudge with Harry, but either way there's still a dead person.
I hope that at some point Harry can have enough character to development to say, 'no this is not my fault' with something.

First of all, Harry didn't let the world burn..  Also this was expressed with the emotions of a parent trying to save his child, not some stranger, but his child.  That is a normal reaction..

The point about Bianca is she was batshit crazy to begin with,  the manipulators played her like a harp.   The same manipulators who turned Sells into a sorcerer then directed him to explode the heart of someone close to Bianca.  There is no other explanation for that, Sells didn't know the woman nor her connections.  However there is no way that that murder was a random act, it set the dominoes falling.  These manipulators knew that Harry would be brought into the case.  True Harry was asked not to go near Bianca, but at the same time answers were wanted by Murphy.   It is beside the point that if Bianca hadn't murdered her secretary it would have been someone else, the point is she blamed Harry for making her do it because she is insane.  Thus her need for revenge at the party, forgone conclusion based on the preplanning by the manipulators once they set it in motion..

Further on my reread of Summer Knight, Lea admits that she tricked Harry into screwing up with the Holy Sword so she could get it to exchange for the Knife.  I have posted in the past that in my opinion Lea was already infected with Nemesis even before she got the Knife simply because of her antagonism towards Mab.  This also plays into the preplanning by the manipulators, because before the Sword was taken by Lea, Harry had no intention of going to the party and he wouldn't have known what Susan did.. However what Susan did was predictable and we might find out at some point that it was no coincidence that she happened to be there when the irresistible invitation was delivered to Harry in the first place.

All of the above were merely chess pieces in a larger game, disgarded when no longer needed.  The goal was war between the Red Court and the White Council, aim to weaken the strongest opponents to the manipulators.  This was largely successful, when the Red Court was not longer needed or rather were in the way, the Red King is then manipulated in the name of revenge into devising a generational spell to take out Eb and his descendants..  So the kidnapping of little Maggie which was sure to bring Harry into it.   Get this straight, the manipulators do not for an instant underestimate Harry, the bet by them was he would successfully reverse that spell and take out the Red Court, which in turn would clear the way for the Fomor..  The Fomor who are much stronger and smarter to go against the White Council much weakened by the war with the Red Court..  Both sides again successfully played against each other by the manipulators who ever or what ever they are.

Quote
We do not know that much about Grey's motivation but the one dollar fee jobs probably have unwritten rules. He is not just cheap labour for everyone.

With Harry he can just ask for a favor in turn and he know Harry will deliver if doing so is in accordance with Harry's rules but with Marcone he has to handle it differently.

Also because he has to show strength and independance to Marcone without creating too much conflict. It is a delicate balance.

Exactly.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on October 16, 2019, 04:49:57 PM
Mostly I agree, but this point is rather weak:

He kind of did "make her," at least by the way Vamps judge things.
  • He provoked her rage
  • He injured her with his "pocket full of sunshine" spell, so she needed blood to heal
  • He left her alone with her love-object / food.
I realize the Vamp POV here is warped and evil; but by their twisted logic, "it's the wizard's fault" is a valid perspective.
 
It's one of the things that make the serious power-players so potent, is that they can recognize the internal rules that let them manipulate other powers.  Harry does it, somewhat.  I presume the Black Council was doing it much moreso, there.
Harry didn't make Bianca attack a wizard.

I agree about Fool Moon, but I don't see the rest as weakness. And I don't remember him being afraid of Harry, but he respects him more than Billy or Murphy.
Fear, respect, reasonable apprehension. Basically all the same thing for Marcone.

Get this straight, the manipulators do not for an instant underestimate Harry.
That doesn't seem to be Rashid's position. I think that in the earlier books, they don't expect Harry to get involved. In the later books, they underestimate him.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 16, 2019, 07:42:28 PM
Quote
That doesn't seem to be Rashid's position. I think that in the earlier books, they don't expect Harry to get involved. In the later books, they underestimate him.

 You mean in Summer Knight?  My point is in Dead Beat Harry mentions to Morgan that the Red Court were the cat's paw of some greater power.  What I am saying if one studies the events of the first four books of the series anyway,  the Black Council or what even Harry finally ends up calling them were manipulating a lot more than just the Red Court. 
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 16, 2019, 08:46:16 PM
First of all, Harry didn't let the world burn..  Also this was expressed with the emotions of a parent trying to save his child, not some stranger, but his child.  That is a normal reaction..

I agree about most of your post, Mira, but I am tired of this. No, this is not a normal reaction. Yes, parents love they children, they would do a lot of sacrifices for them, even die for them or kill those who threaten them. What Harry actually did was normal for a father (even when I still think so much love for a child he has never met is too much. I discussed it a lot at the time and you know very well I still hate Maggie for what her introduction did to my favorite series). But what he said, the burning thing, no, that is not normal at all. Most parents don't stop caring for the rest of the world.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: toodeep on October 16, 2019, 09:08:12 PM
even when I still think so much love for a child he has never met is too much.
Harry obviously didn't love Maggie, as he didn't know her at all.  You literally cannot love someone you do not know.  He loved the concept of Maggie and because of his issues with family was pathological about that concept.  He may have even loved her more because of that, because the concept was not dimmed by any flaws, and simply stood to him as that perfect thing, "my child." 
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 16, 2019, 09:28:07 PM
Exactly, in other words, it is not normal.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: 123Chikadee on October 16, 2019, 11:20:47 PM
I was gonna reply longer, but Dina and toodeep took the words right out of my mouth, lol.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 17, 2019, 10:50:49 AM
I agree about most of your post, Mira, but I am tired of this. No, this is not a normal reaction. Yes, parents love they children, they would do a lot of sacrifices for them, even die for them or kill those who threaten them. What Harry actually did was normal for a father (even when I still think so much love for a child he has never met is too much. I discussed it a lot at the time and you know very well I still hate Maggie for what her introduction did to my favorite series). But what he said, the burning thing, no, that is not normal at all. Most parents don't stop caring for the rest of the world.

No, but in the emotion of the moment, they might say that they do out of sheer frustration.  That is what I am saying, Harry never stopped caring in spite of what he said, that is normal. 
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 17, 2019, 12:02:55 PM
I would agree, except that all the writing (with his inner monologue) indicates that he actually felt that way until Uriel made him stop and really think about it.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Arjan on October 17, 2019, 12:06:08 PM
I would agree, except that all the writing (with his inner monologue) indicates that he actually felt that way until Uriel made him stop and really think about it.
Except that when he was really put to the test for it he broke his back rescuing someone not his daughter. Humans are conflicted beings.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 17, 2019, 12:59:48 PM
True but I believe that was before the "let the world burn" line.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 17, 2019, 01:21:13 PM
True but I believe that was before the "let the world burn" line.

At the same time Dina, this is the guy who takes responsibility for everything, even when it isn't his fault.  It is this that one of the Fallen whispering in his ear to drive him to suicide.   The "let the world burn" line wasn't said coldly, you think Uriel would still back him if he meant it? Rashid? Harry has the power or has access to the kind of power that could burn the world save for himself and little Maggie.
So far he has put it on the line to save the world, not burn it.   

Quote
I would agree, except that all the writing (with his inner monologue) indicates that he actually felt that way until Uriel made him stop and really think about it.

Key there is felt, that is emotion, that isn't what he really thinks.  So all that was needed was to make him take a breath, calm down and think about the implications of what he said.  No, he really didn't want to let the world burn.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Arjan on October 17, 2019, 02:00:54 PM
Humans have all kinds of conflicting thoughts all the time and they mean all of them. In the end it is about the choices you make. Harry could have gone both ways which made it only more interesting for Uriel, he promotes free will and choices. But I don't think it was an accident that Sanya appeared just after Harry broke his back. It was one of those important choices.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on October 17, 2019, 03:30:22 PM
You mean in Summer Knight?  My point is in Dead Beat Harry mentions to Morgan that the Red Court were the cat's paw of some greater power.  What I am saying if one studies the events of the first four books of the series anyway,  the Black Council or what even Harry finally ends up calling them were manipulating a lot more than just the Red Court.
I agree that they were manipulating a lot. I disagree that they planned on Harry, either at all or adequately. I think it was Rashid who said that Harry was constantly "a thumb in the eye of the Adversary," and I believe it was in Cold Days.

I would agree, except that all the writing (with his inner monologue) indicates that he actually felt that way until Uriel made him stop and really think about it.
Harry repeatedly makes choices that go against "let the world burn" in Changes. He had three choices for power, and he only took one. Probably the one that gave him the least power and most restrictions, especially in the short term. That was after a god told him that he, the god, wouldn't have enough power to challenge the LoON in their place of power.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 17, 2019, 09:27:13 PM
Quote
I agree that they were manipulating a lot. I disagree that they planned on Harry, either at all or adequately. I think it was Rashid who said that Harry was constantly "a thumb in the eye of the Adversary," and I believe it was in Cold Days.

Oh I think they manipulated Harry, only he, being Harry, it always backfired..  Still they were very successful in using the Red Court to weaken the White Council.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 17, 2019, 11:25:44 PM
Let me be clear. I never thought that Harry would think about burning the world himself, so the power thing is not relevant for me. I still think he loved his daughter too much, in a not normal way, but you are right Mira, in the end, Harry chose well.

Humans have all kinds of conflicting thoughts all the time and they mean all of them. In the end it is about the choices you make. Harry could have gone both ways which made it only more interesting for Uriel, he promotes free will and choices. But I don't think it was an accident that Sanya appeared just after Harry broke his back. It was one of those important choices.

I agree. And yes, I always said that the fire itself was not accident. I believe in part it was a test, if Harry had walked away and not risk anything for his neighborg, the WG would have retired any support for him. Harry paid a great price for it, but made the right choice. And in the end it set in motion many, many things (mostly in Mab's favor, so I bet she had something to do with the fire).
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: morriswalters on October 18, 2019, 12:21:00 AM
Of course the fire wasn't an accident, Harry had predicted that it was the way to attack him at home.  He's been attacked there multiple times.  He showed his concern for his neighbors by shoveling the walks.  In the end his neighbors paid the price for the things Harry considered important.  Just like Molly. The salient difference between Harry pre Changes and Harry post Changes is his acknowledgement of the fact he is a lightning rod and is a danger to those around him..
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on October 18, 2019, 12:27:25 AM
You are right but that is not what I meant. I believe it was specifically a test, I mean, if by chance it could have happened in a moment when no one would at risk (but Harry and Mister). I believe the moment where Harry had to choose (running or help) was the real point.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 18, 2019, 10:23:59 AM
Of course the fire wasn't an accident, Harry had predicted that it was the way to attack him at home.  He's been attacked there multiple times.  He showed his concern for his neighbors by shoveling the walks.  In the end his neighbors paid the price for the things Harry considered important.  Just like Molly. The salient difference between Harry pre Changes and Harry post Changes is his acknowledgement of the fact he is a lightning rod and is a danger to those around him..

  Oh I think he always knew, Dead Beat when all those ghouls marched through his place, he had to have known..  However he had to live somewhere and it isn't an uncommon thing.  The Summer Knight in Summer Knight didn't live in an isolated tower somewhere and his young friends paid a price as well.  As for Molly, Lea put a guilt trip on him for not training her as she thought she should be trained.. But consider,  Harry didn't give her talent, she was born with it, her mother and father had to have known it was possible that she was and ignored it.  Molly would have ended up without a head were it not for Harry.  He risked his own head to save her..  Yes, he may have made mistakes, but by the time of Changes she is an adult responsible for her own choices.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Arjan on October 18, 2019, 12:07:51 PM
  Oh I think he always knew, Dead Beat when all those ghouls marched through his place, he had to have known..  However he had to live somewhere and it isn't an uncommon thing.  The Summer Knight in Summer Knight didn't live in an isolated tower somewhere and his young friends paid a price as well.  As for Molly, Lea put a guilt trip on him for not training her as she thought she should be trained.. But consider,  Harry didn't give her talent, she was born with it, her mother and father had to have known it was possible that she was and ignored it.  Molly would have ended up without a head were it not for Harry.  He risked his own head to save her..  Yes, he may have made mistakes, but by the time of Changes she is an adult responsible for her own choices.
Everyone is responsible for his own choices but that is not binary. Harry has responsibility too for her choices because of the master - pupil relationship. He bears responsibility too and he abused that position.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 18, 2019, 12:44:39 PM
Everyone is responsible for his own choices but that is not binary. Harry has responsibility too for her choices because of the master - pupil relationship. He bears responsibility too and he abused that position.

  I think "abuse" is too strong of a word here.   It suggests that his mistakes were deliberate, they weren't.   I would submit that given his total lack of experience as a mentor/master to a young apprentice and the fact that he had had a very personal relationship with Molly and her family since her childhood, he should have been disqualified from the job in the first place. Let's not also forget that she was a budding warlock at the time,  while Harry has himself as a model here, he wasn't given any guidance on the matter from any experienced wizards, except that usually the attempt to reform, fails.  As a result no other wizard was willing to put his or her head on the line for her.  So it was step up or watch her lose her head.  He had no clue in her early childhood that she  had tallent or would someday be his apprentice, even if he was aware of her hero worship it is doubtful that he'd see that ever becoming a problem.  At most he saw it as a harmless childish crush that she'd grow out of eventually.   When she became his apprentice, he swiftly put an end to her romantic hopes, from his stand point at any rate.   His training in physical self defense as Lea pointed out, that he was too soft and over protective her was a mistake.  His motives were more misguided from his reaction to his own training from Justin, but not deliberate abuse of her.   On the other hand the mental defense training he did with her saved her ultimately from the Corpse Taker.  So yes,  Harry has to take some responsibility for her choices, Yes, he made some mistakes with her, some fairly serious, but it doesn't amount to abuse.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on October 18, 2019, 04:38:24 PM
Oh I think they manipulated Harry, only he, being Harry, it always backfired..  Still they were very successful in using the Red Court to weaken the White Council.
That's what I meant by not adequately manipulating Harry. I'm still unsure if they intended Harry to become involved in every case. It certainly wasn't Vittorio's intent for Harry to become involved in White Night. Lara did intend Harry to get involved. Did the manipulator intend for it's agent to not involve Harry relying on Lara to involve Harry? But it wasn't Lara who got Harry involved. It was Madrigal.

her mother and father had to have known it was possible that she was and ignored it.
Michael had no idea about Charity's talent. It's likely he still doesn't know. I'm not sure Charity can be blamed because wizards don't even really know how someone gets there abilities.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Arjan on October 18, 2019, 06:16:21 PM
  I think "abuse" is too strong of a word here.   It suggests that his mistakes were deliberate, they weren't.   I would submit that given his total lack of experience as a mentor/master to a young apprentice and the fact that he had had a very personal relationship with Molly and her family since her childhood, he should have been disqualified from the job in the first place. Let's not also forget that she was a budding warlock at the time,  while Harry has himself as a model here, he wasn't given any guidance on the matter from any experienced wizards, except that usually the attempt to reform, fails.  As a result no other wizard was willing to put his or her head on the line for her.  So it was step up or watch her lose her head.  He had no clue in her early childhood that she  had tallent or would someday be his apprentice, even if he was aware of her hero worship it is doubtful that he'd see that ever becoming a problem.  At most he saw it as a harmless childish crush that she'd grow out of eventually.   When she became his apprentice, he swiftly put an end to her romantic hopes, from his stand point at any rate.   His training in physical self defense as Lea pointed out, that he was too soft and over protective her was a mistake.  His motives were more misguided from his reaction to his own training from Justin, but not deliberate abuse of her.   On the other hand the mental defense training he did with her saved her ultimately from the Corpse Taker.  So yes,  Harry has to take some responsibility for her choices, Yes, he made some mistakes with her, some fairly serious, but it doesn't amount to abuse.
The abuse was using her for his suicide. Taking her to Chichen Itza probably counts as well because as her mentor he should do what is best for her, that was his responsibility.

But that became worse because he was not there to help her handle it and she had to hide because he disappeared.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Mira on October 18, 2019, 11:24:07 PM
The abuse was using her for his suicide. Taking her to Chichen Itza probably counts as well because as her mentor he should do what is best for her, that was his responsibility.

But that became worse because he was not there to help her handle it and she had to hide because he disappeared.

  Harry's own state of mind wasn't good at the time, so it is hard to hold him completely responsible.  Also Molly was of age, also considering the religion she was raised in, she knew it was wrong to assist, yet she did.  He didn't make her do it.   People who are about to take their own lives cannot see beyond their own pain.  Plus there is a little matter of a fallen angel egging him on, he cannot be held responsible for it.  If you will remember this is why Uriel was able to balance the scales.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on November 14, 2020, 09:22:06 AM
Hello, ladies and gentlemen and everything in between. I am resurrecting this thread because I think it is an interesting reading after BG. Also because of something about the short story. I will spoiler tag it because it has to be with BG and the thread title does not indicate that.

(click to show/hide)

Oh, and just a comment. It is relatively easy to make the decision of saving children. As others stated here before, it's not such a great moral thing. I believe the interesting part is that while Grey or Marcone would probably go to some extremes to save children, Harry would probably go to great extremes to save any of them (Marcone and Grey, I mean). And I think in his inner heart Grey wants to be that sort of person, and he is trying. As always, Harry is probably going to influence him to go to that side. Marcone, on the other hand, seems to have decided to go the dark side. But, as I said before, I still see hope of redemption for him. And I still think Marcone himself hopes that, if he ever goes truly, truly dark, Harry will stop him.
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Bad Alias on November 17, 2020, 09:14:42 PM
Hello, ladies and gentlemen and everything in between.
That made me laugh.

The problem with Marcone is that we don't see him being a bad guy. We just know he is one. We don't see him shaking down a mom and pop business or killing innocent witnesses. The only thing we see is him being aggressively libertarian. So it's easy to like him because the evil stuff he does is "out of sight, out of mind."
Title: Re: New short story
Post by: Dina on November 17, 2020, 09:39:31 PM
Yes, which I think is in part due to Harry's denial. He does not want to think in Marcone as such a bad guy.
Also, I did a new thread about this, as apparently nobody has read my post. So if you want to move the conversation there, it may be good.
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53933.15.html