That's a shame. I thought the Goodman Grey one was out soon and this was it.
But this looks like Harry just being unreasonably difficult to work with while interacting with Marcone.
I didn't pay for it. At some point I must have gone with not two day shipping on prime, so I had a $5 credit available for a kindle purchase. It was only $4.99. It's a pretty common option, and I occasionally choose it when I need the thing by a specific date (a nibling's birthday), and two day shipping is unnecessary.
So are you saying not to waste my money on the anthology? :o
Also there are other stories because it's an anthology. I haven't read any of them. Has anyone else, and are they worth it?
The problem, I feel, is that even when the story is told in first person, it is not really a point of view. He just describes the things he does, more or less like a third person narrator would do.
A Grey spinoff novel? *perks ears*
I should have been clearer. Yes, we learnt things about how he works, how he does the shapeshifting, how he hurts, but nothing feels like vulnerability, just descriptions. I mean, we don't "feel" that he is in pain, he just "says" that he is pain, but it does not seem to bother him enough. And in skin game we already guessed he really cared for more than paying rent. I don't know, I insist, the story is told from his POV but it feels like a third person narrator. Harry informed us more about him that this story.
He sends Goodman to save some children... But then he gets pissed when he finds out that Goodman went a step further eliminating some of the "customers" of the child sex ring, because Marcone depends on them to run his "business." So who is the real monster here?
I agree Marcone is the monster here, but I always thought that. But I still think he is redeemable, perhaps thanks to Harry's influence.
Maybe Harry losing that attitude could end up being a plot point about how he'd need to dismantle these power systems that are bad despite seeming the lesser evil.
Destroying the red court seemed like eliminating the greater evil, and ended up making everything worse. Ditto egging Lara on to take charge of the white court. Maybe Harry should work on getting smarter before dismantling any more power systems.
Mira: How so?
Destroying the red court seemed like eliminating the greater evil, and ended up making everything worse. Ditto egging Lara on to take charge of the white court. Maybe Harry should work on getting smarter before dismantling any more power systems.This is precisely what Changes and Ghost Story are really about, unintended consequences, versus doing the right thing. Some fights aren't worth winning.
Marcone is much like a mantle. You can kill the man but you can't kill what he represents. So if Harry or Grey killed him there would soon be another like him or worse. Grey actually calls out something like this in the story. And this has been pointed out multiple times over the series.This is precisely what Changes and Ghost Story are really about, unintended consequences, versus doing the right thing. Some fights aren't worth winning.It is far more complicated than that. The red court had to be stopped. Harry was not the only one who thought that and if Uriel, Vadderung and Mab work together to accomplish this it was not just done for Harry's daughter.
Who said anything about killing him? I haven't read it yet, but I'm curious about what Grey says about it. I do like that this series is so complex.There are implied threats by both Marcone and Grey. Grey himself has a conversation about destroying the gang behind the pedophiles. Stating that he isn't a crusader and that even if he did, something else would take it's place. Harry draws the same conclusion about Marcone in the series.
Oh, I agree about Changes and Ghost Story being about untended consequences. Though, I think we'll have to agree to disagree about power systems and their dismantling.
Huh that's interesting. Well, I'm still a little disappointed that we didn't get to learn more about Margaret.
That was the merlins intention but whether his actions were actually effective is debatable. I do not think the merlin was part of the grey council or was involved in Vadderungs planning. Harry did not think the merlin was effectively involved and the grey council was as far as he knew only involved after his chat with Ebenezer when Harry revealed his daughters identity and the place of sacrifice. The merlin was not cooperative so his intentions were not part of the calculation.
@Arjan
The Merlin had already telegraphed his intent to root out the Reds, tree and branch. Assuming that he was really intending to do so and had the capability, then Harry's quest can be reduced to it's essentials, that is, to save his daughter over all else. I don't want to wander too far afield, but the idea is not was it moral to destroy the Reds, but was the price Harry was willing to pay, too high? Jim uses Molly as the example, but the lesson applies to all his allies. Is it right to ask your friends to make a sacrifice for a goal the is essentially selfish? Even if they seem to be willing to do so?
Uriel was pretty clear that is was wrong to bring Molly but that does not mean it was wrong to bring his other friends. Their problems started after Changes with Harry's suicide. Using Molly for that was probably even a greater problem than bringing her to Chichen Itza.
There are implied threats by both Marcone and Grey. Grey himself has a conversation about destroying the gang behind the pedophiles. Stating that he isn't a crusader and that even if he did, something else would take it's place.
... And Viti's assessment made it sound like she was concerned about him being an on-the-spot danger to Grey, not just that he could hire Monoc contractors capable of threatening him. Has Marcone got into regularly carrying enchanted weapons or something?
@g33k
To kill him you must see him before he sees you! Watch out for that 6 year old!
@Arjan
They were adults but Harry lied to them. He lied to his brother, Murphy and others. Not exactly what I expect from my friends. The person he was trying to lie to, Mab, caught him in any case. And even though he a fallen had nudged him that doesn't forgive the lie.
Prior to his fall Harry had been a little out of his mind and his position as stated was that no matter what, no matter who got hurt, no matter what ethical shortcuts he had to take, his daughter was the most important person in the room. And everybody else could burn.
I just wanted to comment that I agree with Arjan´s opinion in this.We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.
About Marcone, I don't necessarily want him to be killed or completely out of power but sometimes is tiring to see him always as powerful and in control. I would like to see him out of his league or metaphorically in the dark about something for a while, preferably with Harry being in a better situation. Let me be clear, Marcone is a great character and I don't want to see him weakened for ever, just in some specific moment. He has the soul of a tiger and that is admirable, but he is still a bad guy and the hero of our story is Harry :P
We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.
To add to Mira's point, Shiro says that the war was coming no matter what the White Council, or Harry, did. Harry may have saved the White Council by setting the war off earlier than the Reds were prepared for.
... 4] Harry didn't make the unstable Bianca murder her beloved secretary and then swear revenge on Harry because "he made her do it.."
We've seen him on the downside a time or two. Fool Moon, he was made a fool of by the hexenwolves. He was kidnapped and tortured in Small Favor. Harry gets the better of him frequently. Grey got the better of him in this story. In Aftermath, we see that he is afraid of Harry. He explicitly says he wouldn't have treated Harry the way he treats Billy and Murphy.
Well, I don't mean to harp on this and I keep this into a generalization, b/c it's a little left field. But just because taking out a bad person who'll just have someone else just as bad, doesn't mean that the first bad person shouldn't be taken out of power. To me, that's just a defeatist way of thinking. By that logic, why do anything to try and make the world a better place; you may as well sit there like a bump on a log. I'd take Grey's assertions with a grain of salt, since he is benefiting from things being the way they are.Harry was a warlock and felt the pull of it. He was teached by Ebenezar not in the first place to develop his magic but more importantly to keep it in check. He has some coping mechanisms to stay on the safe site. Most importantly not use his magic for petty personal gain like heating his shower and taking more blame than necessary, doubting himself. It is now part of his nature now and difficult to resist. But it is perfectly understandable, it is better than being beheaded.
Though, yeah it is pretty interesting that Grey tries to be careful with how he provokes Marcone because of how mortals can be dangerous. Does Grey make any mention of Monoc or BFG as a reason to play nice?
Hm, as for 'Changes' I would posit that Harry's friends do bear some measure of responsibility, at least in the sense of enabling his 'burn the world for the sake of one person' attitude. They could have at least tried to talk him down or curb it. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have been nice to see them try. I'd say that while Molly had choices as well, the fact that Harry is her teacher and is in a position of power over her means that she isn't in a strong place in this scenario.
Yeah, 4) is a bit thin. Though Bianca didn't have to kill her secretary and could have exercised enough self control to not kill someone. Though by that same token she'd just end up losing control and killing someone else. It might be someone she won't get as upset about it. Maybe even to the point of not holding a grudge with Harry, but either way there's still a dead person.
I hope that at some point Harry can have enough character to development to say, 'no this is not my fault' with something.
Hm, as for 'Changes' I would posit that Harry's friends do bear some measure of responsibility, at least in the sense of enabling his 'burn the world for the sake of one person' attitude. They could have at least tried to talk him down or curb it. It wouldn't have worked, but it would have been nice to see them try. I'd say that while Molly had choices as well, the fact that Harry is her teacher and is in a position of power over her means that she isn't in a strong place in this scenario.
Yeah, 4) is a bit thin. Though Bianca didn't have to kill her secretary and could have exercised enough self control to not kill someone. Though by that same token she'd just end up losing control and killing someone else. It might be someone she won't get as upset about it. Maybe even to the point of not holding a grudge with Harry, but either way there's still a dead person.
I hope that at some point Harry can have enough character to development to say, 'no this is not my fault' with something.
We do not know that much about Grey's motivation but the one dollar fee jobs probably have unwritten rules. He is not just cheap labour for everyone.
With Harry he can just ask for a favor in turn and he know Harry will deliver if doing so is in accordance with Harry's rules but with Marcone he has to handle it differently.
Also because he has to show strength and independance to Marcone without creating too much conflict. It is a delicate balance.
Mostly I agree, but this point is rather weak:Harry didn't make Bianca attack a wizard.
He kind of did "make her," at least by the way Vamps judge things.I realize the Vamp POV here is warped and evil; but by their twisted logic, "it's the wizard's fault" is a valid perspective.
- He provoked her rage
- He injured her with his "pocket full of sunshine" spell, so she needed blood to heal
- He left her alone with her love-object / food.
It's one of the things that make the serious power-players so potent, is that they can recognize the internal rules that let them manipulate other powers. Harry does it, somewhat. I presume the Black Council was doing it much moreso, there.
I agree about Fool Moon, but I don't see the rest as weakness. And I don't remember him being afraid of Harry, but he respects him more than Billy or Murphy.Fear, respect, reasonable apprehension. Basically all the same thing for Marcone.
Get this straight, the manipulators do not for an instant underestimate Harry.That doesn't seem to be Rashid's position. I think that in the earlier books, they don't expect Harry to get involved. In the later books, they underestimate him.
That doesn't seem to be Rashid's position. I think that in the earlier books, they don't expect Harry to get involved. In the later books, they underestimate him.
First of all, Harry didn't let the world burn.. Also this was expressed with the emotions of a parent trying to save his child, not some stranger, but his child. That is a normal reaction..
even when I still think so much love for a child he has never met is too much.Harry obviously didn't love Maggie, as he didn't know her at all. You literally cannot love someone you do not know. He loved the concept of Maggie and because of his issues with family was pathological about that concept. He may have even loved her more because of that, because the concept was not dimmed by any flaws, and simply stood to him as that perfect thing, "my child."
I agree about most of your post, Mira, but I am tired of this. No, this is not a normal reaction. Yes, parents love they children, they would do a lot of sacrifices for them, even die for them or kill those who threaten them. What Harry actually did was normal for a father (even when I still think so much love for a child he has never met is too much. I discussed it a lot at the time and you know very well I still hate Maggie for what her introduction did to my favorite series). But what he said, the burning thing, no, that is not normal at all. Most parents don't stop caring for the rest of the world.
I would agree, except that all the writing (with his inner monologue) indicates that he actually felt that way until Uriel made him stop and really think about it.Except that when he was really put to the test for it he broke his back rescuing someone not his daughter. Humans are conflicted beings.
True but I believe that was before the "let the world burn" line.
I would agree, except that all the writing (with his inner monologue) indicates that he actually felt that way until Uriel made him stop and really think about it.
You mean in Summer Knight? My point is in Dead Beat Harry mentions to Morgan that the Red Court were the cat's paw of some greater power. What I am saying if one studies the events of the first four books of the series anyway, the Black Council or what even Harry finally ends up calling them were manipulating a lot more than just the Red Court.I agree that they were manipulating a lot. I disagree that they planned on Harry, either at all or adequately. I think it was Rashid who said that Harry was constantly "a thumb in the eye of the Adversary," and I believe it was in Cold Days.
I would agree, except that all the writing (with his inner monologue) indicates that he actually felt that way until Uriel made him stop and really think about it.Harry repeatedly makes choices that go against "let the world burn" in Changes. He had three choices for power, and he only took one. Probably the one that gave him the least power and most restrictions, especially in the short term. That was after a god told him that he, the god, wouldn't have enough power to challenge the LoON in their place of power.
I agree that they were manipulating a lot. I disagree that they planned on Harry, either at all or adequately. I think it was Rashid who said that Harry was constantly "a thumb in the eye of the Adversary," and I believe it was in Cold Days.
Humans have all kinds of conflicting thoughts all the time and they mean all of them. In the end it is about the choices you make. Harry could have gone both ways which made it only more interesting for Uriel, he promotes free will and choices. But I don't think it was an accident that Sanya appeared just after Harry broke his back. It was one of those important choices.
Of course the fire wasn't an accident, Harry had predicted that it was the way to attack him at home. He's been attacked there multiple times. He showed his concern for his neighbors by shoveling the walks. In the end his neighbors paid the price for the things Harry considered important. Just like Molly. The salient difference between Harry pre Changes and Harry post Changes is his acknowledgement of the fact he is a lightning rod and is a danger to those around him..
Oh I think he always knew, Dead Beat when all those ghouls marched through his place, he had to have known.. However he had to live somewhere and it isn't an uncommon thing. The Summer Knight in Summer Knight didn't live in an isolated tower somewhere and his young friends paid a price as well. As for Molly, Lea put a guilt trip on him for not training her as she thought she should be trained.. But consider, Harry didn't give her talent, she was born with it, her mother and father had to have known it was possible that she was and ignored it. Molly would have ended up without a head were it not for Harry. He risked his own head to save her.. Yes, he may have made mistakes, but by the time of Changes she is an adult responsible for her own choices.Everyone is responsible for his own choices but that is not binary. Harry has responsibility too for her choices because of the master - pupil relationship. He bears responsibility too and he abused that position.
Everyone is responsible for his own choices but that is not binary. Harry has responsibility too for her choices because of the master - pupil relationship. He bears responsibility too and he abused that position.
Oh I think they manipulated Harry, only he, being Harry, it always backfired.. Still they were very successful in using the Red Court to weaken the White Council.That's what I meant by not adequately manipulating Harry. I'm still unsure if they intended Harry to become involved in every case. It certainly wasn't Vittorio's intent for Harry to become involved in White Night. Lara did intend Harry to get involved. Did the manipulator intend for it's agent to not involve Harry relying on Lara to involve Harry? But it wasn't Lara who got Harry involved. It was Madrigal.
her mother and father had to have known it was possible that she was and ignored it.Michael had no idea about Charity's talent. It's likely he still doesn't know. I'm not sure Charity can be blamed because wizards don't even really know how someone gets there abilities.
I think "abuse" is too strong of a word here. It suggests that his mistakes were deliberate, they weren't. I would submit that given his total lack of experience as a mentor/master to a young apprentice and the fact that he had had a very personal relationship with Molly and her family since her childhood, he should have been disqualified from the job in the first place. Let's not also forget that she was a budding warlock at the time, while Harry has himself as a model here, he wasn't given any guidance on the matter from any experienced wizards, except that usually the attempt to reform, fails. As a result no other wizard was willing to put his or her head on the line for her. So it was step up or watch her lose her head. He had no clue in her early childhood that she had tallent or would someday be his apprentice, even if he was aware of her hero worship it is doubtful that he'd see that ever becoming a problem. At most he saw it as a harmless childish crush that she'd grow out of eventually. When she became his apprentice, he swiftly put an end to her romantic hopes, from his stand point at any rate. His training in physical self defense as Lea pointed out, that he was too soft and over protective her was a mistake. His motives were more misguided from his reaction to his own training from Justin, but not deliberate abuse of her. On the other hand the mental defense training he did with her saved her ultimately from the Corpse Taker. So yes, Harry has to take some responsibility for her choices, Yes, he made some mistakes with her, some fairly serious, but it doesn't amount to abuse.The abuse was using her for his suicide. Taking her to Chichen Itza probably counts as well because as her mentor he should do what is best for her, that was his responsibility.
The abuse was using her for his suicide. Taking her to Chichen Itza probably counts as well because as her mentor he should do what is best for her, that was his responsibility.
But that became worse because he was not there to help her handle it and she had to hide because he disappeared.
Hello, ladies and gentlemen and everything in between.That made me laugh.