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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: dspringer1 on September 24, 2019, 04:36:45 PM
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Who among the characters we have already seen would make a good Knight. And by that I mean someone who both has the potential to truly be a Knight (aka - personality/morals) and has the potential to be a tough/capable knight on an ongoing basis (aka - no one shot knights please).
Because of the need to be descended from a mortal ruler, a knight has to be at least part human in ancestery. And arguably any pure supernatural like a vampire or fey would be excluded even if they were originally "born" a changeling or human. I think humanity is an essential element, although I freely admit that nothing in the books directly supports this theory.
Possible Candidates
* Murphy - a long time candidate
* An Alpha could be a candidate, but none of them seem to have the necessary exceptional moral character. They are moral, but a Knight seems to need a bit more in this space.
* I think if any of Michael's kids would get a sword, it would already have happened. But one of them could face a true test and come out changed for the better.
* I have always found the Hellhound Kincaide to be an appealing candidate. He seems an individual that has been in darkness for a very long time and is trying to pull himself out into the light (or at least twilight). His clear approval of Dresden's orders to save the kids first rather than focus on killing vamps was the point where he popped up as a serious candidate in my mind.
* Charity would be an ideal candidate in many ways now, but I think she would prefer to be with her family. She would rise if the call is made, but I think Uriel would not burden her with this duty as he knows she would (on some level) be unhappy in the role.
* Carlos could be a knight, but I suspect Knights and Wizards do not mix.
Not a candidate
* Any supernatural person already with a significant role like Ivy or any of the Fey.
* Thomas - at least as long as he is a White court vampire. The act of feeding would be contrary to the ethos of a knight
* Dresden himself - long established that he is a bit to grey for this
* I do not think Marcone could be the knight. He is also one who lives in darkness and has his code, but he just does not feel like a person who can rise to the light. Rising to the grey seems like the best he can do. It is them main difference between Kincaide and Marcone. I think Kincaide can reach the light.
* I do not see Elaine as a candidate as she does not seem to fit in so many ways. Not a bad or incompetent person, just does not "fit". She lacks the idealism that is required -- and the desire to fight which is also pretty necessary. I also think her moral code is a bit to flexible.
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Marcone isn't worse than Sanya was. Jim loves a redemption story.
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Marcone isn't worse than Sanya was. Jim loves a redemption story.
Yeah, I predicted Butters based on a passage from Dead Beat, and I was right. Before him I thought Marcone had a pretty good chance at it, but since Changes, not so much. I can see either
Thomas or Elaine taking up the remaining Sword.. However it could be little Maggie who will be grown by the time we get to the BAT... Or going out on a limb here, Harry, himself will be using the Sword of Love... Why? Don't you think it odd that all wardens get a sword made for them by Luccio, Harry becomes a warden, she loses her skill to make them. Harry is the Winter Knight yet he has no sword... I know Harry claims to suck at using a sword, but none of the Holy Knights had skills before them became one... Possible exception, Murphy because of her marshal arts background. I just think when the time comes and humanity's future is on the line, Harry will go forth with the Sword of Love in hand...
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Thomas. I don't know if being human is a requirement. Thomas is descended from essentially the King of the White Court. And, I mean, it's the Sword of Love. His "forbidden" love with Justine just begs for him to be the wielder of the Sword of Love.
I think it's way too soon to dismiss him because of his requirement to feed... His character seems ripe for some sort of redemption story where he somehow converts or casts out his demon. I can't imagine that there won't be some sort of "pay off" with Thomas, the half-vampire son of Maggie. I think there will be something happen with him and his demon. But maybe not until the BAT... obvious time would during "Empty Night" (assuming the working titles of the BAT are Hell's Bells, Empty Night, and Stars and Stones".
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Harry ends up "converting" Lasciel at some point, and then if Thomas can convert his demon, that would be a parallel that would be interesting. Could be Maggie set them both up to be key figures in the future of the Denarians (and maybe the entire angelic host?) and the future of the White Court. I mean, it's the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy... Massive change to the entire lanscape of reality (i.e. changes to how the angels work) would be applicable...
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Thomas does seem like a perfect thematic candidate for Amoracchious. I don't really see why it would be Harry. As to Harry not having a sword being a reason, at this point, most wardens don't have swords (at least ones crafted by Luccio). We've seen why Murphy isn't a good candidate. I'm not sure if Elaine has a significant role to play in the series (she's been on the shelf too long). Her most likely significant role is as Kumori or another agent of Nemesis.
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Given that Uriel invested in Harry as a spare/extra person-who-does-Knightly-things, it seems kind of a waste to make him one of the three.
I mean, his conflict against Hannah Ascher is almost textbook Knight work.
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I think it pretty obvious that Jim is leaving the door open for Thomas. Mab hinted that Thomas would have been a suitable Winter Knight because he loved Justine so much, which was mortal enough for her. Thomas is also a skilled swordsman, so I think it would be an appropriate weapon upgrade for the apocalypse. And of course, Susan wielded Amorachius/Excalibur (Love), so we have precedent of a semi-vampire being wielding the swords. In fact, in the scene where she worries about whether she can touch it without being destroyed, Harry just tells he to swear she will be true to the sword and not commit any evils with it and to be do it for the love of Maggie. And it worked. I don't think the Almighty would have just let anyone wield the Swords. I suspect anyone who does wield them is because they were meant to, and chose to. There are no coincidences around the nails of Christ. The only other candidate I can think of who might use that sword is some reborn King Arthur-type. Marcone might fit that bill, but it would be a dark story line (which actually would fit in with the earliest Arthurian myths - the stories got watered down a lot over time). Harry is the wrong choice, as he is Merlin, not a king. He doesn't want to be and would be a poor ruler of men. Maybe Daniel Carpenter or some other Carpenter...there are not too many candidates off the top of my head.
Esperacchius/Durendal (Hope) would also fit Thomas, if Sanya fell. But I really hope Sanya doesn't as I really like the character. The only other wielders of hope would be someone from the BFG...Daniel Carpenter again perhaps?
As for Fidelacchius/Kusanagi (Faith), I suspect it will stay Butters. He has earned his Sword and his role. And he has a long road ahead. And not for nothing, the Star Wars motif is important. Hence Uriel liking the music (that is no throw away line - it is a big hint about how things work).
And Murphy is a crazy choice. Did you not read the last book? She got basically crippled after using it when she wasn't meant to. If that wasn't a sign, I am not sure what is. And she broke it. I think between the physical, emotional and psychological scars she probably couldn't even if she wanted to. She unfortunately has had her time. I suspect sadly, that she will be killed off next book. She doesn't serve a purpose the way she used to as a character in the early series, and her arc is coming to a close sooner or later. Remember, her and Dresden just worked out they should be together when they have time. Each time, something bad happens to one of them. Harry got killed when they were first about to. There is a symmetry. Jim often says how he has to torture Harry, the book thrives on his pain. And our reaction to it. Believe me, it is coming sooner or later.
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This is a case of me purely throwing "stuff" at the wall and seeing if it sticks. I am pulling for Thomas. In my version, he takes up the sword and the holy power banishes the demon, freeing him and letting him and Justine live their dream life, have kids and go into old age.
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Don't we have a WoJ that Thomas isn't getting a sword, something to the effect of he already has a sword of love (eyebrow waggle)?
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Given that Uriel invested in Harry as a spare/extra person-who-does-Knightly-things, it seems kind of a waste to make him one of the three.
I mean, his conflict against Hannah Ascher is almost textbook Knight work.
It wouldn't in the sense that it would give him one more effective weapon.. I think it interesting that Harry has not only the Sword but the artifacts save the Grail under his control... Here is a real tin hat thought, given what Michael said about the Grail, what if Nic becomes redeemed by it's power, rejects his coin and noose, he could become the ultimate third Holy Knight...
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Not necessarily the next knight, but eventually...
How about Molly?
I suspect the power of a Sword could overcome the grip of a Mantle, and free her; and I suspect Jim plans to reunite her with her family. Maybe she could do that still with a mantle (either Queen to Come or Queen who Is), but I kind of think Jim might get her free of the Fae... eventually.
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The only other candidate I can think of who might use that sword is some reborn King Arthur-type. Marcone might fit that bill.
A thought struck me as I read this. What if Marcone is King Arthur? Not King Arthur reborn, but actually the same guy.
Harry has noticed a lot of his companions aging, sometimes he specifically notices that they are aging more/faster than him. Sometimes it's just the description is older. Murphy has gone from someone's "kid sister" to "favorite aunt." He has noticed that he now looks older than Thomas. I don't think Marcone's, like Mac's, description has really changed. John Marcone is just a name he's made up. It has been repeatedly mentioned by Jim, either directly or through characters, that Marcone would be viewed as a most virtuous feudal lord. Many Arthurian legends say Arthur will come back when most in need. Well the Dresdenverse is about to have an apocalypse.
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.. What if Marcone is King Arthur? Not King Arthur reborn, but actually the same guy...
Seems unlikely to me, because in the soulgaze with Beckitt, Harry saw young-punk-Marcone.
That said, "reborn" works just amazingly well... Marcone as Arthur, Harry as Merlin, and Excalibur waiting for the right time...
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A thought struck me as I read this. What if Marcone is King Arthur? Not King Arthur reborn, but actually the same guy.
Harry has noticed a lot of his companions aging, sometimes he specifically notices that they are aging more/faster than him. Sometimes it's just the description is older. Murphy has gone from someone's "kid sister" to "favorite aunt." He has noticed that he now looks older than Thomas. I don't think Marcone's, like Mac's, description has really changed. John Marcone is just a name he's made up. It has been repeatedly mentioned by Jim, either directly or through characters, that Marcone would be viewed as a most virtuous feudal lord. Many Arthurian legends say Arthur will come back when most in need. Well the Dresdenverse is about to have an apocalypse.
I'd agree with most of it except for Thomas, his youthful appearance comes from being a White Court Vamp, as long as he is reasonably well fed, he will keep looking good. So that gives him an advantage appearance/physically over Harry, in spite of Harry's advantages as a wizard, at some point Harry would begin to look older than Thomas who won't age at all.. And face it, Harry has been put through the mill a bit more than Thomas, his face reflects the battering that it has taken the last few years. Having said that, Harry has a big advantage over his "normal" vanilla human friends, unless something really bad happens that his normal wizard genes or Mab cannot fix, he will remain hardy and just be coming into his prime at eighty while most of his friends will be in the market of assisted living.
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This is a case of me purely throwing "stuff" at the wall and seeing if it sticks. I am pulling for Thomas. In my version, he takes up the sword and the holy power banishes the demon, freeing him and letting him and Justine live their dream life, have kids and go into old age.
I agree with this. He might not be a permanent Knight, he might just pick up the sword for one fight to protect his unborn child and emerge mortal.
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I'd agree with most of it except for Thomas, his youthful appearance comes from being a White Court Vamp, as long as he is reasonably well fed, he will keep looking good. So that gives him an advantage appearance/physically over Harry, in spite of Harry's advantages as a wizard, at some point Harry would begin to look older than Thomas who won't age at all.. And face it, Harry has been put through the mill a bit more than Thomas, his face reflects the battering that it has taken the last few years. Having said that, Harry has a big advantage over his "normal" vanilla human friends, unless something really bad happens that his normal wizard genes or Mab cannot fix, he will remain hardy and just be coming into his prime at eighty while most of his friends will be in the market of assisted living.
IIRC, there's WOJ that wizards age increasingly-slowly until they look about 50something, then plateau in appearance for centuries.
Presumably "Ancient Mai" has crossed the plateau. I don't know of any WOJ as to what's on the other side. OTOH, maybe Mai just had some sort of supernatural trauma that advanced her from looking 50something to looking much older, as her personal plateau...
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Seems unlikely to me, because in the soulgaze with Beckitt, Harry saw young-punk-Marcone.
That said, "reborn" works just amazingly well... Marcone as Arthur, Harry as Merlin, and Excalibur waiting for the right time...
Good catch.
Harry would begin to look older than Thomas who won't age at all.
That's basically what I said Harry has noticed has happened.He has noticed that he now looks older than Thomas.
I said that Harry has noticed that he, Harry, looks older than Thomas. Harry didn't look older than Thomas earlier. My point was that even Harry's description of Harry has aged.
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I have been of the mind for years that Marcone could be a Knight, but not one of Love. If Butters hadn't taken up the Sword, I would have pegged Marcone for Fidelaccius. He has the same strength and faith in his actions. He holds true to his ideals and doesn't compromise. If he had been nudged differently, a moment of redemption was possible. Like in Death Masks when he was tapped by God to be part of the plot to stop the Denarians. He used the similarly old fake shroud to pull two heavy men to safety with their combined weights over 500lbs.
Personally, I want to see Harry in Mirror Mirror encounter a few WCB Knights. So, he arrives in the alternate world, runs from others hunting him, and gets to the street when a car pulls up and Marcone in a plain simple suit looks at him and says, "Come with me if you want to live."
As for Thomas, to be the permantent holder for Amoriccius he needs more love. Michael held a universal love for his fellow man. Thomas doesn't care about all those other people in the world. He is focused on his family, loved ones, and friends.
Now William the Werewolf as a Knight of Love . . . defender of the weak, leader of his clan, happy loving marriage strong enough to break the bindings of fae magic. It could happen.
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Hm, I see where people keep getting Marcone for Fidelaccius, but he'd probably have to be nudged off his criminal path. I feel like that could be the only obstacle and Harry's reaction if it did happen would be pure gold.
Ooooh yeah, that'd be a great intro for Mirror!Marcone. Hope that happens.
Yeah, that's very true. I think Peace Talks could be where Thomas gets a bunch of character development that puts him on the path to being the wielder of Amoraccius(I didn't spell that right did I?).
Will being a sword bearer is so great, I'm amazed no one else has brought it up. :)
Oooh, what if a majority of Team Dresden end up temporarily wielding the sword for one-time gigs before it lands to Thomas. I don't know when it would happen, but hey, if it's near the BAT it could work.
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I'm still digging Nic for one of the Swords (probably giving up Anduriel for it).
But I think it's Nic OR Johnny-M, there's too many narrative similarities between their calm planner-centric thinking villainy; for both to get a Sword would be to same-y... and Johnny-M is so very perfect for it.
I can just envision the scene where Marcone is defending someone else in extremis, pulls the Sword because he figures hey, it won't light for me, but it's still a F'ing ginormous blade, and better than my bare hands! and BAM goes the Holy Fire right in BBEG's face... while Marcone's face goes slack with "that-can't-happen-I'm-a-bad-guy!" shock.
Harry's too.
And the Winter Lady dissolves into helpless giggles, "right now, you two look absolutely identical!"
And then they get identical looks of outraged disdain.
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One of my biggest long-shots is Will or Georgia in the end. They're one of three couples who have been (and, presumably, always will be) in a stable, loving relationship since their introduction to the series. It's them, Michael + Charity, and, to a lesser degree, Thomas + Justine. I say Thomas and Justine are loving, but not exactly stable, and their relationship seems to have been started mostly due to codependence, especially on Justine's part.
My other long-shot is Amanda Carpenter. My reasoning is that A) it would be nice to see a Carpenter Knight once again, B) we haven't had a permanent female Knight yet, and I think the last one will be female, C) Daniel is kinda too obvious, though he's also pretty clearly not fit to be a Knight without some serious character development, and D) it would subvert expectations for the Last Knight to be a character who'd received so little attention early on. I do think Amanda will need some more attention, and if she starts getting some, it'll feed my WAG even more.
Obviously, Daniel could be currently undergoing tons of personal development (I think he joined the military, so he'd presumably pick up some discipline if not necessarily a cooler temperament) off-page that we simply haven't seen yet. It's entirely possible that the next time he shows up he'll have chilled out a great deal, and would make a good Knight.
Anywho, those are my picks within the current State of the Series. I'd like it to be Will. Or hell, Georgia. Her current status in the series is basically Professional Kidnappee, so it'd be nice for her to stand on her own two feet.
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Seems unlikely to me, because in the soulgaze with Beckitt, Harry saw young-punk-Marcone.
That said, "reborn" works just amazingly well... Marcone as Arthur, Harry as Merlin, and Excalibur waiting for the right time...
Not to mention that Harry has soulgazed Marcone and didn't see this at all.
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[quoteI'm still digging Nic for one of the Swords (probably giving up Anduriel for it).quote]
I agree, simply because the foundation for the purpose of the Holy Knights and the Denarians has
been so carefully set down. It all comes down to redemption of souls and the huge chess board this
little game is being played on. A very complicated three dimensional game at that involving free will, good verses evil.. Both sides champion free will, but it is a bit of a trap, one is free to make a choice, but that choice doesn't necessarily mean freedom.
Back to Nic, he has been one of the more powerful earthly players and really believes in what he is doing.. But what has it gotten him lately? He sacrificed his daughter to what end? He gained the Grail, but it is doubtful that it the object he was really after.. He has lost his place seemingly as leader among the Denarians.. At some point will he begin to feel just a bit disillusioned by the whole thing and begin to ask hard questions? If he arrives at the point where Sanya did and decide to chuck it all, he will turn to dust like most humans who are 2,000 years old.. He may prefer that, or he may though the influence and power of the Grail, reject Andriel, the noose, the coin, be reborn long enough to take up the Sword of Love and do one last battle, not just for himself but perhaps in the hope that his action will redeem his daughter's soul as well... Ultimately if anything turns Nic, saving his daughter from everlasting punishment will be it.
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Hm its seems that if there is a toss up between Nic and Marcone, the latter might be more realistic. I mean, Michael got so close to Nic. I thought he had a shot at redeeming Nic when I first read Skin Game, but since that fell through, I'm not sure it'll happen. It'll be cool if I'm wrong.
Oh, but Amanda as a sword bearer is so neat! Yeah, Daniel is a bit too obvious. I'm liking Will and/or Georgia as a sword bearer now. :) I'm still holding out hope that Thomas becomes a new sword wielder, he just needs more character development.
Yeah, we need more lady knights. :)
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Hm its seems that if there is a toss up between Nic and Marcone, the latter might be more realistic. I mean, Michael got so close to Nic. I thought he had a shot at redeeming Nic when I first read Skin Game, but since that fell through, I'm not sure it'll happen. It'll be cool if I'm wrong.
Oh, but Amanda as a sword bearer is so neat! Yeah, Daniel is a bit too obvious. I'm liking Will and/or Georgia as a sword bearer now. :) I'm still holding out hope that Thomas becomes a new sword wielder, he just needs more character development.
Yeah, we need more lady knights. :)
I've heard that Jim had at one time considered Marcone as the next Knight but went with Butters instead. Indeed in the earlier books there were hints of Marcone's possible redemption, however from Changes on, he has seemed to have taken a darker turn.. Nic on the other hand, has always been ruthless and dark, but as of Skin Game his fortunes have gone south, this could be the foundation for him rejecting coin and noose, that is all I am saying. Who ever it will be, I see Jim going for the character who will give the greatest impact.. Marcone and Nic both would have that kind of impact, or if in the end Harry feels that he, himself. needs to carry the Sword.. This too would fit because Harry picked up Michael's Sword to almost disastrous results because he misused it and Lea was able to take it. He has been in denial about being Holy Knight material from the get go, though the Sword of Faith did shine when on his back in Small Favor, he dismissed that as simply because of the presence of Denarians and it levels the playing field... Or I can even see Maggie who will be a young woman by the time of the BAT taking up the Sword.
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A couple of points. I think the timeline is going to compress going forward as Harry moves towards the BAT. So I wouldn't look for Maggie to pick up a sword.
Unless Jim is going to throw away canon, Nic would need to give up the coin for the sword. No coin and no anti aging magic, Nic gets old and decrepit fairly quickly.
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Really? Oh that's interesting. Well I feel that Butcher would have to choose between Nic and Marcone as having them both redeemed is too similar in storylines. If he changed his mind on Marcone already, maybe we'll get a redeemed Nic instead?
I wonder how old Maggie will be by that point. I think Harry might try to keep her out of the conflicts, so that'll be interesting to read.
@Morriswalters: Yeah, that's pretty true too. Hm, so maybe Nic gets it one time and then decides to let time take its course?
Though with that in mind its more likely that neither of them take up a sword. I still like the idea of Team Dresden all having a turn with Amoraccius.
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A couple of points. I think the timeline is going to compress going forward as Harry moves towards the BAT. So I wouldn't look for Maggie to pick up a sword.
Is there WOJ of this speed-up? Mind you, I see some signs in the novels that you may be right, but I wondered if Jim Has Spoken, or anything... From my reading, it's a reasonable surmise, but hardly a sure thing, so other WAGs have plenty of merit still.
Unless Jim is going to throw away canon, Nic would need to give up the coin for the sword. No coin and no anti aging magic, Nic gets old and decrepit fairly quickly.
Well, Nic does have the Grail, which has lots of pop-culture "eternal life" cred. So maybe he doesn't need Spanx of the Fallen to prop up his dusty ass.
The other possibility, of course, is for Anduriel to repent; stay en-coined, aligned with Nic, and Nic gets a shiny sword TOO. I mean, a Fallen Angel repenting is pretty epic in an apocalyptic storyline...
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Yes, no, maybe? I'll see if I can run it down.
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Well, Nic does have the Grail, which has lots of pop-culture "eternal life" cred. So maybe he doesn't need Spanx of the Fallen to prop up his dusty ass.
Not if he rejects noose and coin and accepts the chance of redemption and embraces the meaning of the Grail. If the Grail can give eternal life or at least preserve him, it could be a game changer for Nic. Because we know give up the coin etc and you go back to your real age and begin to age normally.. Since Nic is a couple of thousand years old, give or take he'd just turn to dust.. I don't think he is really to die yet no matter what happens to his soul.
I really think this is what is being set up, however we may not see it till the final book..
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Not if he rejects noose and coin and accepts the chance of redemption and embraces the meaning of the Grail. If the Grail can give eternal life or at least preserve him, it could be a game changer for Nic. Because we know give up the coin etc and you go back to your real age and begin to age normally.. Since Nic is a couple of thousand years old, give or take he'd just turn to dust...
Hmm. One of us is missing something, here.
Like, I think you just began by saying "Not if..." and then replicated my points.
So were you disagreeing with me, or agreeing? ???
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Since Nic is a couple of thousand years old, give or take he'd just turn to dust.
He could have a few years in him. Quintus Cassius made it to Dead Beat and didn't die of natural causes. He was probably a Roman.
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He could have a few years in him. Quintus Cassius made it to Dead Beat and didn't die of natural causes. He was probably a Roman.
I don't think he was as old as Nic. He didn't die of natural causes because Mouse broke his neck, but clearly he was aging at a very rapid pace, that is one reason why he was so desperate to take up another coin.
I was agreeing with you g33K..
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I know Marcone and Thomas are popular candidates, but I just do not see either as possible.
Thomas is a full vampire. He feeds on souls - no choice about it. A Knight would not be allowed to feed on souls. If Thomas managed to kill his demon/vampire part, then a Knight could be possible.
Marcone is a strong individual with a strongly defined "bright lines" in his morality. But he is NOT a moral individual. He can certainly be a heroic figure in the dresden universe if the circumstances are right. He can (as stated) make an outstanding King or ruler or even Ally. He has a tiger's soul - and it would take something very dramatic to change that. And really seeing nothing, not even the recovery of the girl in the coma, changing that.
Fundamentally, for me at least, the morality of the Knights is the essential requirement. It is this combination of self-sacrifice and desire to do good that makes a Knight. Thomas does not have that for anyone beyond his immediate family. Marcone does not have that period. A person can go through a transformation moment (like Sanya) that results in them rising to that Standard, but it must be profound to have that effect. But I have not seen anything in the series to date that implies such a transformation for either Marcone or Thomas.
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Fundamentally, for me at least, the morality of the Knights is the essential requirement. It is this combination of self-sacrifice and desire to do good that makes a Knight. Thomas does not have that for anyone beyond his immediate family. Marcone does not have that period. A person can go through a transformation moment (like Sanya) that results in them rising to that Standard, but it must be profound to have that effect. But I have not seen anything in the series to date that implies such a transformation for either Marcone or Thomas.
That is why my vote goes to Nic, just think of the drama of it, if he had such a conversion.. That doesn't mean that there won't be temporary Knights between now and the final BAT. Harry won't hesitate to hand out the Sword if it is needed to someone suitable, but as we've seen that doesn't make him or her a Knight for the duration..
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Totally -- Nic would have been ideal -- but I think that ship sailed with Skin Game. I totally believe that one of the reasons Uriel risked so much was because of the possibility that Nic might change course. That did not happen because not all good possibilities come true.
Hard for me to see what else might create a transformation moment for Nic.
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I don't think he was as old as Nic. He didn't die of natural causes because Mouse broke his neck, but clearly he was aging at a very rapid pace, that is one reason why he was so desperate to take up another coin.
He was in all likelihood Roman, so he probably couldn't be much younger than Nic. About 400 years at most. He survived for two years before being killed, i.e., he had at least two years in him, probably more. Nic would almost certainly survive long enough to take up a sword for a book or two. He definitely wouldn't just die on the spot and turn to dust, as we saw in Skin Game.
Thomas is a full vampire. He feeds on souls - no choice about it. A Knight would not be allowed to feed on souls. If Thomas managed to kill his demon/vampire part, then a Knight could be possible.
...It is this combination of self-sacrifice and desire to do good that makes a Knight. Thomas does not have that for anyone beyond his immediate family.
The predominant theory of Thomas being a Knight is that the Sword of Love kills the demon/frees Thomas from it when he takes up the Sword. His entire life between Blood Rights and Turn Coat is self sacrifice for the benefit of others. He was tortured into "accepting" his demon by a divine entity. It would be poetic for him to defeat his demon with the help of the Sword.
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He was in all likelihood Roman, so he probably couldn't be much younger than Nic. About 400 years at most. He survived for two years before being killed, i.e., he had at least two years in him, probably more. Nic would almost certainly survive long enough to take up a sword for a book or two. He definitely wouldn't just die on the spot and turn to dust, as we saw in Skin Game.
While you are right, Harry says that Cassius is approximately 1,400 to 1,500 years of age and had faced him two years previously. He did not have two or more years left in him as you put it...
page 357 paperback Dead Beat
"Last time I saw you, you could have passed for forty."
Cassius stared at me for a moment more, and then leaned his bat on the floor. " It was the result of losing my coin to you and your friends,"he said, voice creaking. While I held my coin, Saluriel prevented age from ravaging my body. Now nature is collecting her due from me. Plus interest. "
He waved his stiff-fingered right hand, wrinkled, spotted, swollen with what looked like bad arthritis. "If she has her way, I will be dead within the year."
And in Skin Game while Nic did take off his noose, and offer his coin to Murphy, he never gave it up. So while you could be right he wouldn't turn to dust on the spot, there is no proof that he wouldn't because he didn't give up his coin in Skin Game. Cassius is proof however of rapid aging after giving up the coin, Nic is that much older so who knows what would happen.
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The question, "Is the noose what keeps Nic young or is it his fallen?", might be interesting in this context. Also it will be interesting to see if Thomas survives Peace Talks, or or conversely, Justine. JB likes to reuse the same gags over and over. However if anyone in the damn book is owed a sword Murphy is.
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The question, "Is the noose what keeps Nic young or is it his fallen?", might be interesting in this context. Also it will be interesting to see if Thomas survives Peace Talks, or or conversely, Justine. JB likes to reuse the same gags over and over. However if anyone in the damn book is owed a sword Murphy is.
Um, perhaps but she isn't suited for one.....
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The question, "Is the noose what keeps Nic young or is it his fallen?", might be interesting in this context. Also it will be interesting to see if Thomas survives Peace Talks, or or conversely, Justine. JB likes to reuse the same gags over and over. However if anyone in the damn book is owed a sword Murphy is.
I think there's some redundancy between the two. Coins halt aging for the bearers, and the Noose gives a limited form of immortality (no, he's not an Immortal the way the Queens and some others are. That's Resurrective Immortality anyway, so not the same thing).
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Hm, yeah out of the three of them, Thomas, Marcone, and Nic, if they're given a moment where they can take the transformative opportunity that leads them to become sword-bearer(s), then Thomas is probably the one.
Hm, I think Murphy's time as a sword-bearer is done. Hope we see more of her thoughts on that.
Who else could work for the swords?
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He did not have two or more years left in him as you put it...
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And in Skin Game while Nic did take off his noose, and offer his coin to Murphy, he never gave it up.
Two years and eight months passed between Cassius losing his coin and him dying. http://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline (http://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline). As always, feel free to check my math. That's what I meant by he had more than two years left in him. More than two years from the point he gave up the coin. Let's assume he'd be dead in two years and nine months. Let's go with him being 1,500 years old and Nic being 2,000. If Cassius had about three years, then Nic should have at least one year, probably 22 to 24 months. Furthermore, a lot of Cassius's physical problems were because Dresden beat him viciously.
Without looking away from Karrin, he dropped the Coin, and it fell to the icy sidewalk without bouncing, as if it had been made from something far heavier than lead. ... He reached up and undid the Noose tied about his throat, and let it fall to the ground beside the Coin.
Chapter 29.
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Without looking away from Karrin, he dropped the Coin, and it fell to the icy sidewalk without bouncing, as if it had been made from something far heavier than lead. ... He reached up and undid the Noose tied about his throat, and let it fall to the ground beside the Coin.
Doesn't matter, it was a ploy to begin with, he never intended to really surrender it.... Murphy didn't accept the offer so technically he never gave up the coin, physically dropping it isn't enough.. As soon as she tried to kill him the Sword shattered and it picked his coin back up and kicked the snot out of her.
Two years and eight months passed between Cassius losing his coin and him dying. http://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline. As always, feel free to check my math. That's what I meant by he had more than two years left in him
Huh??? In any case he was aging at an accelerated rate from the moment he gave up his coin... He went from a guy around forty to closer to eighty in two years..
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Doesn't matter, it was a ploy to begin with, he never intended to really surrender it.
It shattered because he had given up the coin and surrendered. It doesn't matter if his actions were perfidy.
Murphy didn't accept the offer so technically he never gave up the coin, physically dropping it isn't enough.
What's that got to do with whether or not he gave up the coin? No one accepted Sanya's surrender of his coin, but that didn't negate him giving it up.
Huh??? In any case he was aging at an accelerated rate from the moment he gave up his coin... He went from a guy around forty to closer to eighty in two years..
Death Masks to Dead Beat is two years and eight months. My point has never been that there won't be accelerated aging. My point has been that Nic will not turn to dust and will have time to operate as a Knight of the Cross for enough time to be relevant in the books.
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Hm, when thinking about the swords, Fitz from Ghost Story keeps popping up in my mind. I mean, he hasn't been mentioned since. That makes me suspicious. Plus there is a redemption story.
And I can also see Thomas as has been argued before (his Hunger killed by picking up the sword).
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Hm, when thinking about the swords, Fitz from Ghost Story keeps popping up in my mind. I mean, he hasn't been mentioned since. That makes me suspicious. Plus there is a redemption story.
Fitz strikes me as just another of Harry's rescued victims. Any of the surviving Ordo Lebes (or other survivors of the Whamp "cull the Freaks out of herd" plot) could do as well, or better.
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Something that just occurred to me -- what if a Sword lights (i.e. job-offers) for Gard? I mean, yeah she has a job; but she is specifically cast as a mercenary, and just maybe she might be willing to switch who her Top Boss is; which outfit she works for.