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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on September 13, 2019, 03:11:25 AM
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Mab said she had another role in mind for Molly before Molly became the Winter Lady. What Role did Mab orginally have in mind for Molly.
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Mab said she had another role in mind for Molly before Molly became the Winter Lady. What Role did Mab orginally have in mind for Molly.
Winter Knight.
In the likely case that Ghost-Harry (the n00b) didn't survive coming into conflict with the senior necromancer that he didn't even know he would be facing...
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I'm pretty sure Mab said she thought Molly would be more suited for summer. Having a connection with the Summer Lady would certainly be useful for Mab.
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The Summer Lady needed to be replaced anyway.
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The Summer Lady needed to be replaced anyway.
The replacement oft the Summer Lady was not planned by Mab. She intended Sarissa to replace Maeve. Only Maeve killed Lily first, so that Sarissa became the Summer Lady instead.
Or do you mean that Mab had planned to replace both Ladies? First Maeve by Sarissa and some time after that Lily by Molly? Because Lily wasn't doing so well? Wouldn't this be more Titania's decision?
Can the Winter Knight even be a woman? Has the Lady always to be female?
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The replacement oft the Summer Lady was not planned by Mab. She intended Sarissa to replace Maeve. Only Maeve killed Lily first, so that Sarissa became the Summer Lady instead.
Or do you mean that Mab had planned to replace both Ladies? First Maeve by Sarissa and some time after that Lily by Molly? Because Lily wasn't doing so well? Wouldn't this be more Titania's decision?
Can the Winter Knight even be a woman? Has the Lady always to be female?
I got the impression that Mab did want Lily replaced at some point and wanted Molly in that role. She wanted Sarissa for Winter Lady but I don't think she had her convinced yet to take that role. Which then brings up the question since she needed for Maeve to die, what exactly did she have planned? Was she going to leave the Winter Lady role empty until Sarissa was ready? Just what would she have done about Lily if Maeve hadn't killed her? Because no way could she have ordered Harry to do it, because she'd then run into the same problems that happened when she was accused of ordering or killing the Summer Knight back in Summer Knight, it would have meant war.
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Because no way could she have ordered Harry to do it, because she'd then run into the same problems that happened when she was accused of ordering or killing the Summer Knight back in Summer Knight, it would have meant war.
The war was to address the imbalance because someone stole the Mantle of Summer Knight. Would there have been a war regardless? Maybe, but I don't think so. I can't remember where, but there is a line that most Knights are taken out by their counterpart.
Mab said that Molly was better suited to Summer. Mab usually doesn't do something with one plan in mind. She sets things up so that if she loses, she still wins.
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Can the Winter Knight even be a woman? Has the Lady always to be female?
There was a whole book about the Summer Knight being a woman, so I assume the Winter Knight could be too, yes.
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There was a whole book about the Summer Knight being a woman, so I assume the Winter Knight could be too, yes.
You mean Lily? I remember a discussion not long ago. I'm not sure she really was the Knight. Imho the Mantle might have been temporarily stored in her body. Why didn't they let her remain the Knight? I can't remember exactly how it was.
Instead she became the Lady and Fix became the Knight.
Aurora got killed and than...? That was while Lily was still a statue? Where did the Lady Mantle go to in the meanwhile? The Unraveling turned Lily back. What happened to the Knight's Mantle? Didn't it go back to Mab or Titania? Did it do so, because the Queen(s) wanted it to or because Lily wasn't the right person anyway (i.e. female) and her turning to stone prevented the Mantle from leaving before? So Lily was free to receive the Lady Mantle.
Or did Mab actively call the Knight Mantle to her (or was it to Titania???) because they preferred a more suitable host regardless of the gender?
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The war was to address the imbalance because someone stole the Mantle of Summer Knight. Would there have been a war regardless? Maybe, but I don't think so. I can't remember where, but there is a line that most Knights are taken out by their counterpart.
Mab said that Molly was better suited to Summer. Mab usually doesn't do something with one plan in mind. She sets things up so that if she loses, she still wins.
Yes, I think there would have been war or other serious repercussions for Mab, that is why she wanted so badly for Harry to clear her of the crime.
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The replacement oft the Summer Lady was not planned by Mab. She intended Sarissa to replace Maeve. Only Maeve killed Lily first, so that Sarissa became the Summer Lady instead.
Or do you mean that Mab had planned to replace both Ladies? First Maeve by Sarissa and some time after that Lily by Molly? Because Lily wasn't doing so well? Wouldn't this be more Titania's decision?
Can the Winter Knight even be a woman? Has the Lady always to be female?
Titania was not doing anything and that made the situation worse. Yes I think she was planning to replace Lilly as well.
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You mean Lily? I remember a discussion not long ago. I'm not sure she really was the Knight. Imho the Mantle might have been temporarily stored in her body. Why didn't they let her remain the Knight? I can't remember exactly how it was.
Instead she became the Lady and Fix became the Knight.
Aurora got killed and than...? That was while Lily was still a statue? Where did the Lady Mantle go to in the meanwhile? The Unraveling turned Lily back. What happened to the Knight's Mantle? Didn't it go back to Mab or Titania? Did it do so, because the Queen(s) wanted it to or because Lily wasn't the right person anyway (i.e. female) and her turning to stone prevented the Mantle from leaving before? So Lily was free to receive the Lady Mantle.
Or did Mab actively call the Knight Mantle to her (or was it to Titania???) because they preferred a more suitable host regardless of the gender?
I just don't see how Lily could contain the Summer Knight without BEING the Summer Knight; she was human enough and had the mantle, it seems weird to claim she then wasn't the Knight.
And IIRC, the Mantle went from Reuel to Aurora to Lily, as in the Knight reverted to the nearest Summer queen when the Knight died. I think the Knight mantle passed from Lily to Fix by Lily's will, her being the Summer Lady could hold the Mantle and send it out.
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Can the Winter Knight even be a woman? Has the Lady always to be female?
I'm pretty sure there's WOJ that the Lady must be female.
Given that Lily was (however briefly while conscious) an acceptable host for the summer knight mantle, it seems safe to assume winter's knight mantle is also at least capable of going to a woman. Though based on the psychological profile Winter seems to prefer, they might have a stronger bias to choosing male knights than summer.
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You mean Lily? I remember a discussion not long ago. I'm not sure she really was the Knight. Imho the Mantle might have been temporarily stored in her body. Why didn't they let her remain the Knight? I can't remember exactly how it was.
Instead she became the Lady and Fix became the Knight.
Aurora got killed and than...? That was while Lily was still a statue? Where did the Lady Mantle go to in the meanwhile? The Unraveling turned Lily back. What happened to the Knight's Mantle? Didn't it go back to Mab or Titania? Did it do so, because the Queen(s) wanted it to or because Lily wasn't the right person anyway (i.e. female) and her turning to stone prevented the Mantle from leaving before? So Lily was free to receive the Lady Mantle.
Or did Mab actively call the Knight Mantle to her (or was it to Titania???) because they preferred a more suitable host regardless of the gender?
The Summer Knight died, and the mantle went to Aurora. Aurora made Lily the Summer Knight and turned her to stone. Aurora used the unraveling to turn Lily back in order to kill her. Harry killed Aurora first. The Summer Lady mantle went to Lily. Lily retained the Summer Knight mantle. She then chose Fix as her Knight.
The only part of that that is conjecture is that Lily was the Summer Knight, but until someone convinces me there is a reason to believe the could receive the mantle without either becoming the Summer Knight or already being a Summer Queen, I'm don't see a reason to entertain the idea.
Yes, I think there would have been war or other serious repercussions for Mab, that is why she wanted so badly for Harry to clear her of the crime.
What Mab wanted when the Mantle was missing and therefore there was an imbalance isn't evidence that Winter killing a Summer Knight would have serious repercussions for Mab.
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What Mab wanted when the Mantle was missing and therefore there was an imbalance isn't evidence that Winter killing a Summer Knight would have serious repercussions for Mab.
That alone would have serious repercussion for Mab.. That was the whole point of the murder in the first place.
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What Mab wanted when the Mantle was missing and therefore there was an imbalance isn't evidence that Winter killing a Summer Knight would have serious repercussions for Mab.
Fix said in CD that Winter Knights are the most common cause of death for Summer Knights. When you get right down to it, the Sidhe might not be as open about regarding Knights as disposable dixie cups as the Fallen are, but mortals are still basically mayflies to them. I think what Mab was really worried about Winter being blamed for was stealing the mantle - that's an act of war.
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Fix said in CD that Winter Knights are the most common cause of death for Summer Knights. When you get right down to it, the Sidhe might not be as open about regarding Knights as disposable dixie cups as the Fallen are, but mortals are still basically mayflies to them. I think what Mab was really worried about Winter being blamed for was stealing the mantle - that's an act of war.
Yes, and Harry did ask her what her problem was since he really doubted that she'd be charged..
Her answer was vague about ancient forms of justice and punishment, but she left no doubt that there was.
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That alone would have serious repercussion for Mab.
The murder or the theft? If it's the murder, my question is "says who?" If it's the theft, my response is "that's my point." Fix has been pretty blase about getting into situations where he might have to murder Harry ever since Small Favor. I don't think one Knight killing another is considered a big deal.
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... I think what Mab was really worried about Winter being blamed for was stealing the mantle - that's an act of war.
I think what Mab was really worried about was that Weird Shit was happening over on Summer-side, where she had little insight/power.
I think she intuit'ed that something was broken Over There, and that the situation was destabilizing. Mab, being so much the active force of Winter, might be unable to avoid pressing a Summer weakness. But Mab, being a long-plan sort, a high-level strategist, and the war-leader at the Outer Gates, can probably realize that a substantive imbalance / instability between Summer and Winter might be (with a high probability, in fact) some Outsider plot... over there in Summer, where Mab is largely helpless.
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The murder or the theft? If it's the murder, my question is "says who?" If it's the theft, my response is "that's my point." Fix has been pretty blase about getting into situations where he might have to murder Harry ever since Small Favor. I don't think one Knight killing another is considered a big deal.
Mab says it was murder, a mantle has gone missing and the fingers are pointed at her... The balance of power is in danger so there are consequences...
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Mab says it was murder, a mantle has gone missing and the fingers are pointed at her... The balance of power is in danger so there are consequences...
I know what happened. I'm asking if your saying "[Murder of the Summer Knight by the Winter Knight] alone would have serious repercussion for Mab," or "[Theft of the Summer Knight Mantle] alone would have serious repercussion for Mab." To the first I say show me some evidence of that. To the second I say that's my point.
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I know what happened. I'm asking if your saying "[Murder of the Summer Knight by the Winter Knight] alone would have serious repercussion for Mab," or "[Theft of the Summer Knight Mantle] alone would have serious repercussion for Mab." To the first I say show me some evidence of that. To the second I say that's my point.
As I said, Mab is vague about it, however she does say, page 32 Summer Knight paperback
"And why should you care?" I asked. "It isn't like the cops are after you."
"There are powers of judgement other than mortal law. It is enough for you to know that I wish to see justice done," she said. "Simply that."[/quote
Safe to say if the finger is pointed at her and her innocence cannot be proved, the "powers of judgement" would come down on her head... What ever that is, which apparently is for her not Harry at that point to know. So short term consequences, war, long term subjection to the powers of judgement...
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Note Mab doesn't actually say those powers of judgement care about this case. She's making Harry care in a way he understands, even though Mab cares far more about imbalance in the scales.
Although I do think subsequent events somewhat undermine the plot point; after Summer Knight Winter is for long stretches of time short on a Knight, Lady, and second-in-command... and only the weakness at the Lady is somewhat mirrored in Summer. And yet, disaster doesn't strike VERY hard (sure, the White Court snipes a bit at the edges and Nic thinks he can flaunt the accords, but overall it's kind of meh).
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@Avernite: The difference is that the powers governing Winter and Summer didn't know why there was an imbalance in Summer Knight.
@Mira: My position is that Winter killing Summer and vice versa isn't cause for a "Chicago over Chicago" conflict. Summer and Winter are constantly in conflict. I don't think one bumping off the other's agents is going to cause any escalation unless that results in a significant imbalance. Imbalance, not killing, is the cause of escalation. I still don't know what your position is.
Mab wants to see justice because she didn't do it. If you read it carefully, she doesn't say that justice is her goal. Justice would just align with her interests this time. She needs whoever did it to be taken care of because they either work for her but have gone rogue, or they are her enemy anyway. It would be something different if Mab had said "There are powers of judgement other than mortal law therefore I wish to see justice done" or "There are powers of judgement other than mortal law therefore I need to be proven innocent, so those powers don't [method of punishment] me." But even if your interpretation is correct, what is Mab worried about being judged for; it certainly isn't murder. She does that sort of thing all the time. It would still be for the theft.
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It would be something different if Mab had said "There are powers of judgement other than mortal law therefore I wish to see justice done" or "There are powers of judgement other than mortal law therefore I need to be proven innocent, so those powers don't [method of punishment] me." But even if your interpretation is correct, what is Mab worried about being judged for; it certainly isn't murder. She does that sort of thing all the time. It would still be for the theft.
There's the question of whether the Mothers knew all along who was behind it, or retaining Harry was Mab's way of poking the anthill to make sure they saw the problem was somewhere else. Despite the limitations on senior queens interfering with juniors' business, they might still have ways to make things tough for one they suspected of involvement. Mab, after all, was perfectly free to kill Maeve over her corruption - the obstacle was her lingering emotional conflict, not Winter Law. And Mother Winter considers Mab "too much of a romantic".
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There's the question of whether the Mothers knew all along who was behind it, or retaining Harry was Mab's way of poking the anthill to make sure they saw the problem was somewhere else. Despite the limitations on senior queens interfering with juniors' business, they might still have ways to make things tough for one they suspected of involvement. Mab, after all, was perfectly free to kill Maeve over her corruption - the obstacle was her lingering emotional conflict, not Winter Law. And Mother Winter considers Mab "too much of a romantic".
I really have no idea what the Mothers do, other than answer questions for Harry every decade or so.
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There's the question of whether the Mothers knew all along who was behind it...
They certainly knew by the time Harry arrived with his questions. How much before that... maybe JB's next 'Con panel or online AMA?
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I really have no idea what the Mothers do, other than answer questions for Harry every decade or so.
They probably keep Earth spinning as it does to ensure Summer/Winter appear on-time in the northern hemisphere. Something esoteric like that.
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Yeah, we really have very little idea how the Fae Courts work. Bob said the Knights had different duties to the different Queens. That might be something Harry should look into.
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Yeah, we really have very little idea how the Fae Courts work. Bob said the Knights had different duties to the different Queens. That might be something Harry should look into.
When and where did Bob say that? I don’t recall that comment at all. Was that in Summer Knight?
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Yes. It was early on when Harry is asking about who could kill a Knight. He asks "who does the Knight work for," or something very close to that.
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When and where did Bob say that? I don’t recall that comment at all. Was that in Summer Knight?
Yeah. Near the end of Chapter Ten, when Bob is briefing Harry about the whole 3-Queens-per-Court and what the Knights are and so forth.