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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: g33k on September 07, 2019, 03:02:07 AM
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This is Vittorio's line, near the end of Chap.38 of White Night.
It suddenly struck me: "At last" ??!? ???
I mean, the only thing that had just happened was that Madrigal the Schmuck had contracted a severe case of Dead. Why is THAT the signal to launch Ghoulmageddon?
It seemed like Harry & Carlos were genuinely a surprise, that Vittorio (and Madrigal) weren't expecting them. So the Ghoulmageddon plan was aimed at the Wraith Deeps already (even a badass like Coul needs a place to stage his uberghouls, time to gather them... the logistics don't end just because you're an archmage). The aim, evidently, was to decapitate the entire White Court -- Raith, Malvora, and Skavis -- in one blow (presumably placing King Vittorio on the throne, but who (besides Cowl) really knows, at this point?).
The thing is, Vittorio could (I'd say should!) have performed the beheading as soon as everyone was there: by waiting, he lets various plots and plans advance, possibly causing one or more of the targets to flee the event being held in their honor, and blunting the strike.
Even after Team Dresden arrived, there was this interval while the Schmuck sent for weapons. Everyone was lounging around looking forward to the show; guards were, if not lowered, at least a defcon step less primed: everyone WANTED the show, and DIDN'T want it disrupted. So they had all pulled their horns in, to not give offense, not Start Something that might interfere with the spectacle to come... THEN, if ever, Vittorio could have gotten a surprise-attack launched while everyone was waiting for the Party To Start.
But Vito waited until Madrigal died; then he broke cover and went all Igor/ArnaudAmalric on them.
Why then?
I'm not clear else what was going on that night, but I'm pretty sure something else happened that I didn't notice...
Anyone?
Bueller?
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Because if Harry and Carlos roll up to a cave full of dead vampires and full ghouls, we don't get the big impressive wizard duel.
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Because that was his backup plan. Vito was possessed by an outsider, Lash explicitly said so. With hindsight it might be a nemesis infection. Placing his family on top and Vito in a good place to take over was probably Cowl preferred outcome but that failed so killing everyone was his second best option.
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Indeed, and maybe Vittorio disagreed with Cowl about which plan should have priority.
Losing Madrigal, then, was the sign of losing the duel.
Alternatively, maybe Madrigal knew too much; if he lived and the Ghouls had been sent, he might've represented a big security risk by being able to figure out Vito's sponsors. With him dead, noone could put together anything more than 'it was Cowl and the outsiders'.
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The attack happened when it was supposed to happen. The phrasing makes sense if you posit that the timing was prearranged. The attack was to go off at some arbitrary time. Since Vittorio would have no idea when everyone would be at the party, he set a time that would give them time to gather. Madrigals death had nothing to do with it.
And what peregrine said.
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I tend to think that Ghoulmageddon 2: The Ghoulening—This Time it's More Violent was a fallback plan if Vittorio failed to unseat Raith. I think the Black Council/Cowl/Nemesis/The Outsiders wanted to bring the White Court under its control, not kill it. Kinda mirrors Lady Ortega's plan to improve her status in the Red Court in Changes, which Harry also foiled, but with extreme-r prejudice.
It makes sense, if you think about it. Papa Raith's magic resistance has long been speculated to originate from a pact with or sponsorship from Outsiders, right? Lara...subjugated him, so Outsiders don't have de facto control over the White Court any longer. They wanted their toys back, or, if they couldn't have them, they wanted to break them so nobody else could, either.
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... Papa Raith's magic resistance has long been speculated to originate from a pact with or sponsorship from Outsiders, right? Lara...subjugated him, so Outsiders don't have de facto control over the White Court any longer. They wanted their toys back, or, if they couldn't have them, they wanted to break them so nobody else could, either.
Now this is a very interesting thought!
I want to mull the implications a while.
It's interesting also that Harry reveals the "cull the herd" plan to have been Lara's all along -- though apparently versions of it are known for centuries -- but the Outsiders don't enact ANY plan to move against the WC until Lara takes Papa Raith away from the Outsiders (if that's what actually happened, of course).
Thank you for this idea!
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Depends on what you mean by the plan being "hers."
It's entirely possible that while she gave the idea to the other two, she didn't specifically want to implement it. Just that she gave the other guys a bad idea to play them.
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Depends on what you mean by the plan being "hers."
It's entirely possible that while she gave the idea to the other two, she didn't specifically want to implement it. Just that she gave the other guys a bad idea to play them.
That was certainly my interpretation.
"These idiots are a threat to me. I'll give them a dumb-guy-dumb-plan, buy some popcorn, and watch as Dresden Dresden's them" was probably her real plan.
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Because that was his backup plan. Vito was possessed by an outsider, Lash explicitly said so. With hindsight it might be a nemesis infection. Placing his family on top and Vito in a good place to take over was probably Cowl preferred outcome but that failed so killing everyone was his second best option.
JB made a tongue-in-cheek retcon WoJ confirmation of the Sharkface/Before-was-possessing-Vitto theory. But I don't think he was being remotely serious. He just thought it was an interesting idea.
I'm not sure I'd say he was possessed by Nemesis, but I'd agree that he could have been tainted by Nemesis. In that sense, the "masquerade" could be the entire cat's-paw culture of the Whamps. Vitto became so corrupted that he resented the thing he was bound to, just like Aurora bucked balance, and Denton bucked justice, etc, etc.
And the "masquerade" he was ending was the entire Court.
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... I'm not sure I'd say he was possessed by Nemesis ...
Lash -- in her few moments between flipping onto Team Dresden, and taking the psychic bullet -- specifically ID'ed Vito as being possessed by an outsider. We don't really know which, but I think we can take her ID as definitive, and her loyalty in that scene as a truth (even though we know JB is a lying liar who would lie to his own Mama if he thought it'd mess with the fans).
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Lash -- in her few moments between flipping onto Team Dresden, and taking the psychic bullet -- specifically ID'ed Vito as being possessed by an outsider. We don't really know which, but I think we can take her ID as definitive, and her loyalty in that scene as a truth (even though we know JB is a lying liar who would lie to his own Mama if he thought it'd mess with the fans).
Sure, but I'm one of those folks that thinks that the corruption mentioned in Cold Days isn't exclusive to Nemesis. I think it's inherent to outsider magic, and Nemesis can peak in on folks and potentially stoke the corruption, but it's not him/her/it. So I can see where Vitto was possessed by a generic outsider, which corrupted him, and allowed for the twisted loyalties we've attributed to Nemesis.
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Because if Harry and Carlos roll up to a cave full of dead vampires and full ghouls, we don't get the big impressive wizard duel.
Yes to this.
The attack happened when it was supposed to happen. The phrasing makes sense if you posit that the timing was prearranged. The attack was to go off at some arbitrary time. Since Vittorio would have no idea when everyone would be at the party, he set a time that would give them time to gather. Madrigals death had nothing to do with it.
And what peregrine said.
Yes to this.
It makes sense, if you think about it. Papa Raith's magic resistance has long been speculated to originate from a pact with or sponsorship from Outsiders, right? Lara...subjugated him, so Outsiders don't have de facto control over the Whte Court any longer. They wanted their toys back, or, if they couldn't have them, they wanted to break them so nobody else could, either.
Yes, to this.
It's interesting also that Harry reveals the "cull the herd" plan to have been Lara's all along -- though apparently versions of it are known for centuries -- but the Outsiders don't enact ANY plan to move against the WC until Lara takes Papa Raith away from the Outsiders (if that's what actually happened, of course).
Depends on what you mean by the plan being "hers." It's entirely possible that while she gave the idea to the other two, she didn't specifically want to implement it. Just that she gave the other guys a bad idea to play them.
Yes to this.
That was certainly my interpretation.
"These idiots are a threat to me. I'll give them a dumb-guy-dumb-plan, buy some popcorn, and watch as Dresden Dresden's them" was probably her real plan.
Yes to this; and I like the way you put that.
Wow! I must be in a very agreeable mood today. I better not go near anyone I know who likes to borrow money. Not today, and maybe not the rest of the week.
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It makes sense, if you think about it. Papa Raith's magic resistance has long been speculated to originate from a pact with or sponsorship from Outsiders, right? Lara...subjugated him, so Outsiders don't have de facto control over the White Court any longer. They wanted their toys back, or, if they couldn't have them, they wanted to break them so nobody else could, either.
My only objection to this line of thinking is that Papa Raith has probably not been acting in the Outsider's best interest since Mama Dresden cursed him, so why wait 30 years to make a move?
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My only objection to this line of thinking is that Papa Raith has probably not been acting in the Outsider's best interest since Mama Dresden cursed him, so why wait 30 years to make a move?
Because the apocalypse is near. More and more things happen now and in the near future.
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My only objection to this line of thinking is that Papa Raith has probably not been acting in the Outsider's best interest since Mama Dresden cursed him, so why wait 30 years to make a move?
Because the apocalypse is near. More and more things happen now and in the near future.
Yes to what Arjan said, but also consider that Lord Raith may have made a deal with HWWB, rather than he was possessed by him (it). This means Nemesis wouldn't know everything that happened to LR because it wasn't in his head to learn of it. Lord Raith wouldn't share what Margaret's death curse did to him with anyone or anything. Over time the Outsiders could probably figure it out, but it would take a long time and for a while they could probably afford to be patient. Plus, perhaps not every deal Papa Raith was offered would have benefitted the Outsider cause. In such cases they wouldn't care whether he accepted these deals. Finally, there is the possibility Nemesis made other moves to compensate for Lord Raith's lack of action. I may have more to say about this last point later.
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It is the same reason Maeve can play around for a century but everything needs to be sorted out now. The same reason the reds started their war now escalating everything. It may be simply because the outsiders having more power to influence things because the stars are right. The same reason Harry's stars are right to became an outsider bane.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskScienceFiction/comments/4usq2f/cthulhu_mythos_what_does_when_the_stars_are_right/
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@Kurtin & Arjan: I believe that the points you have raised are good responses to my objection. In my opinion, the best answer is that immortals take their time doing things.
My main point is that Lara subjugating him wouldn't be the point at which he needed to be replaced. It may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, or it just may have been that it took 30 years to get everything in place (whether that was stars, agents, internal White Court strife, or some combination of some or all of those things). Once he was neutered, he became much less valuable as an ally or an asset because he was much less willing to take action.
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A neutered White King isn't a problem for the White Court unless anyone knows about it. If his policies and plans still properly advanced Outsider goals, his personal power doesn't really matter. It only becomes an issue when someone else is pulling his strings, and Lara was definitely not going to agree with the Outsiders on much.
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I disagree. His personal power affects his actions. It allows him to more easily maintain power. It allows him to take more risks. It allows him to better achieve goals, his or theirs.
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That would be the case for pretty much any other supernatural organization. But the White Court nobles don't get their hands dirty. Like, ever. Everything gets done through eighteen levels of catpaws.
Plus the dude had spent centuries or millennia building up a reputation. He can trade pretty freely on that for decades—which is exactly what he did. And the guy had a pretty big stockpile built up previously, so it wasn't like he couldn't occasionally do something supervampy. It wasn't until the secret that he couldn't feed was uncovered that it became an issue.
In short: Outsiders used him for political power, and diminished personal strength doesn't really limit his options—within the White Court.
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But he had been acting more conservatively and there was more strife in the White Court. His lack of personal power had consequences before Lara took over.