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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on July 07, 2019, 04:56:07 PM
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How much time passed between Dumourne’s death at Harry’s hand and Harry’s capture by wardens? I wonder because he had to have had enough time to find a secure hiding spot for Bob... In fact I’d love to know how Harry was caught in the first place.
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How much time passed between Dumourne’s death at Harry’s hand and Harry’s capture by wardens? I wonder because he had to have had enough time to find a secure hiding spot for Bob... In fact I’d love to know how Harry was caught in the first place.
I seem to remember that he merely buried Bob's skull in the ashes of the house. I also seem to remember that the wardens did show up fairly quickly, and since Harry really didn't anything about
what a warden was at that time, I doubt he tried to or could elude them. If I remember correctly Luccio knew that Kemmler had Bob, but I don't think the wardens were aware that Justin had gotten a hold of him after Kemmler died.. If that is how it went down, it wouldn't have been hard to have hidden the skull, because the wardens weren't looking for it.. However it seems to have remained hidden for the three years Harry lived with Eb, so apparently no one tried to clear away the rubble to rebuild on the site or anything.
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... If I remember correctly Luccio knew that Kemmler had Bob, but I don't think the wardens were aware that Justin had gotten a hold of him after Kemmler died...
Luccio / the wardens did know about Bob; they regarded him as a VERY dangerous artifact. Luccio states that "the wardens" destroyed Bob, and Harry didn't correct her.
IIRC, Justin was a warden at the time. I presume he was the one who did the "destroying."
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We got the, How Harry met HWWB, flashback in Ghost Story. We've only got tiny fragments of the final confrontation between Harry and Justin and Harry's trial, and next to nothing about his capture by the wardens, or maybe it was just Morgan. Damn, I really want to see a flashback that covers these events.
Now that I think about it, Harry's head was under a bag during his trial, I think we would need another character; most likely Ebenezer or Luccio, to fully describe who said what and describe everyone's attitude and the looks on everyone's face as things played out. However, the trial itself (probably) isn't as important as the earlier events.
I would like to know more about the interrogation that occurred before Harry's trial. It might tell us a lot about what Justin's reputation with the Council was when Harry killed him. We don't know if Justin was still a member in good standing with the White Council or if they knew he had turned to the dark side.
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We got the, How Harry met HWWB, flashback in Ghost Story. We've only got tiny fragments of the final confrontation between Harry and Justin and Harry's trial, and next to nothing about his capture by the wardens, or maybe it was just Morgan. Damn, I really want to see a flashback that covers these events.
Now that I think about it, Harry's head was under a bag during his trial, I think we would need another character; most likely Ebenezer or Luccio, to fully describe who said what and describe everyone's attitude and the looks on everyone's face as things played out. However, the trial itself (probably) isn't as important as the earlier events.
I would like to know more about the interrogation that occurred before Harry's trial. It might tell us a lot about what Justin's reputation with the Council was when Harry killed him. We don't know if Justin was still a member in good standing with the White Council or if they knew he had turned to the dark side.
That’s my question too. For Harry to end up under the Doom of Damocles rather than executed his killing of Justin would have to be seen as justified and that he could be redeemed from his use of black magic.
So, either Justin was already suspected or someone saw some incredibly damning evidence when they caught Harry. Either way if Justin was the guy given the responsibility for destroying Bob you’d think after Harry’s trial people would be asking questions about his career as a warden.
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@KurtinStGeorge & SerScot
At the end of PG when Harry is talking to Eb, I think it is revealed that the only reason the Council didn’t kill Harry was because Eb personally vouched for him, similar to how Harry did for Molly. This is why Harry, like Molly was placed under the Doom, although I’m unsure if Eb was also placed under it, like Harry is for vouching for Molly.
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Luccio / the wardens did know about Bob; they regarded him as a VERY dangerous artifact. Luccio states that "the wardens" destroyed Bob, and Harry didn't correct her.
IIRC, Justin was a warden at the time. I presume he was the one who did the "destroying."
They knew that Kemmler had him, and she thought they destroyed him when they killed Kemmler.. Justin was still a warden at that time and was in on the raid, that is when he stole Bob the assumption was that he was destroyed.
So, either Justin was already suspected or someone saw some incredibly damning evidence when they caught Harry. Either way if Justin was the guy given the responsibility for destroying Bob you’d think after Harry’s trial people would be asking questions about his career as a warden.
Why? At that point Justin was seen merely as a respected, powerful, retired warden. Why would they question anything about him? The trial was about Harry and whether or not he should keep his head... The house burned so how much evidence would there have been? It isn't like the Book of Kemmler was displayed prominently on Justin's nightstand..
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kbrizzle,
@KurtinStGeorge & SerScot
At the end of PG when Harry is talking to Eb, I think it is revealed that the only reason the Council didn’t kill Harry was because Eb personally vouched for him, similar to how Harry did for Molly. This is why Harry, like Molly was placed under the Doom, although I’m unsure if Eb was also placed under it, like Harry is for vouching for Molly.
Yes, that was part of it. However, as we learned in Proven Guilty that by itself isn’t enough. The Senior Council needs to agree rehab is possible. That suggests to me that they had to find that Justin had gone bad.
Mira,
Because if a Warlock had killed a respected Warden I simply don’t think Eb saying “he’s a good kid don’t kill him” would have carried the day. They needed to agree as to why Harry could kill Dumorne and that Harry’s use of black magic in that context was justified as self defense.
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Because if a Warlock had killed a respected Warden I simply don’t think Eb saying “he’s a good kid don’t kill him” would have carried the day. They needed to agree as to why Harry could kill Dumorne and that Harry’s use of black magic in that context was justified as self defense.
I doubt that it did, however going by what happened to the Korean kid and almost to Molly I doubt that Harry was questioned too closely.. A lot hinges on the soul gaze, and Eb said that what he saw was a kid powerful as hell and angry as hell, but not unredeemable... I think Harry was spared because his talent was considerable and the fact that Eb, who was after all the Blackstaff was willing to be responsible for him under the Doom.. Remember Eb was also under orders to chop Harry the second Harry even hinted at going out of line... We know Eb did cut Harry some slack, he was his grand kid after all.. I also doubt that if the Senior Council knew it at the time they would have allowed Eb to take him in..
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Even though the WC likely had a good opinion of DuMorne - given that he was Simon’s apprentice (who was on the SC) & a presumably honorable discharge from the wardens after decades of service - Harry’s story had to cast some doubts on that.
The facts as the WC would see them when they capture(?) Harry after Justin’s death were:
- Harry was a teenager who had been trained in the WC/ classical style of wizardry - this had to have been by someone who was on the WC themselves
- Upon a looking at teenage Harry through the Sight, the kid had the taint of an Outsider (HWWB) as well as some, but not a lot of black magic taint - a teenage kid doesn’t have the knowledge or skill to summon an Outsider so someone else likely set one upon him. Teen Harry also hadn’t used black magic consistently enough at this point for him to look like the Korean kid or even Molly
- Harry claimed to be the son of Margaret LeFay who walked a blurry line but was a WC member. She was also on friendly terms with Justin DuMorne. The SC might even know that she was trying to birth a Starborn.
- Harry likely knew enough details about Justin’s mannerisms & magic style to convince those who knew the latter that Harry had to know Justin somewhat well
- If Justin indeed ‘helped’ Harry, why didn’t he tell Harry about the Laws or the WC?
- The Blackstaff soulgazed him & said that the kid was a fundamentally decent person who had the potential for massive power. He likely told the SC that Harry had potential to be a Starborn, explaining the Outsider taint & Martha Liberty’s mysterious comment about what Harry “is supposed to become” at the beginning of SK.
I think these facts are enough for many members of the WC & SC to at least suspect that Justin wasn’t on the up & up. Combined with the fact that the Blackstaff himself is willing to take on the boy as an apprentice & carry out the Doom if Harry broke probation, I think the WC was willing to see where things go.
Also remember that things were relatively peaceful in the mortal world when this happens - the WC is seemingly in control of things so they could afford to be magnanimous. At the time of PG they are greatly diminished & in a war of attrition, fighting for their survival. This makes them far more ruthless when dealing with ‘distractions’.
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That’s my question too. For Harry to end up under the Doom of Damocles rather than executed his killing of Justin would have to be seen as justified and that he could be redeemed from his use of black magic.
So, either Justin was already suspected or someone saw some incredibly damning evidence when they caught Harry. Either way if Justin was the guy given the responsibility for destroying Bob you’d think after Harry’s trial people would be asking questions about his career as a warden.
I think the Wardens didn't know Justin had turned. A Warden-gone-Warlock is a SERIOUS threat... knows too many secrets, too much Council & Warden security processes, etc. They would have HAD to put him near the very top of their "most wanted" list.
And then for him to be as active as he was? Monitoring young Dresden (and Mallory) for magical gifts, adopting them from their agencies, training TWO apprentices while they attend school, etc... I see this as a huge security risk for a known & hunted Warlock!
As an ex-Warden & WC wizard in good standing, nobody's looking for him, monitoring his activities. He could EASILY have done all that without anyone particularly noticing (or caring).
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Then Harry kills him.
If Justin was a known Warlock, the "Self Defense" plea is entirely credible, even likely. A known Warden-gone-Warlock would probably already have been under a death-penalty order, with a 'kill on sight, too dangerous to attempt to capture" clause.
I don't see Harry's trial being such a close call, had DuMorne been a known Warlock; more a matter of "well, YEAH... of COURSE the kid had to kill him! And lucky to survive! Soulgaze to verify, but SelfDefense is the only account that makes any sense."
OTOH, there must have been SOME hard evidence that Justin HAD turned. If all to the known facts pointed to Justin being 100% clean, then Harry's allegation of "Self Defense" wouldn't have been believed at all, because nobody would have believed that Justin Lilywhite had tried to kill Harry!
So, not a known Warlock, but still credible as attacker, demon-summoner, mind-controller...?
My guess is that enough of Justin's lab survived that the Wardens saw plenty of evidence that he had gone Warlock... and had been for some time. Plus the signs of the recent psychic attack on Harry -- Justin's attempted Enthrallment -- would have been clear, further proving that Justin had both ATTACKED him, and had used Black Magic in doing it.
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I think the Wardens didn't know Justin had turned. A Warden-gone-Warlock is a SERIOUS threat... knows too many secrets, too much Council & Warden security processes, etc. They would have HAD to put him near the very top of their "most wanted" list.
Agreed, don't think such things enters their minds very often, one reason why Peabody was able to
pull off what he did. Though yeah, it was the ink, but too many were too willing to blind themselves that there could be an inside threat... And even when it was found out something wasn't quite right, Morgan was deemed to be the sacrificial lamb rather than admit what really happened.
And then for him to be as active as he was? Monitoring young Dresden (and Mallory) for magical gifts, adopting them from their agencies, training TWO apprentices while they attend school, etc... I see this as a huge security risk for a known & hunted Warlock!
As an ex-Warden & WC wizard in good standing, nobody's looking for him, monitoring his activities. He could EASILY have done all that without anyone particularly noticing (or caring).
Exactly, and Justin made sure they didn't know about his activities, he also kept all knowledge of the White Council from both Harry and Elaine.. The Council I am willing to bet had no clue at all that he had adopted two very talented kids..
Then Harry kills him.
If Justin was a known Warlock, the "Self Defense" plea is entirely credible, even likely. A known Warden-gone-Warlock would probably already have been under a death-penalty order, with a 'kill on sight, too dangerous to attempt to capture" clause.
Yes, but to this day there are still members of the Senior Council who do not fully accept that Justin had gone bad more over that Harry had managed to take him out.. Though enough bought it enough that Harry was made a full wizard on the spot, even though under age and under the Doom, thus placed with Eb.
I don't see Harry's trial being such a close call, had DuMorne been a known Warlock; more a matter of "well, YEAH... of COURSE the kid had to kill him! And lucky to survive! Soulgaze to verify, but SelfDefense is the only account that makes any sense."
Justin wasn't a known warlock, and the wisdom being that the only way one as young as Harry could take out a warden, warlock or not was to be a warlock himself.. Though I think that Harry admits to the use of some black magic to defend himself.. That was the "taint" in my opinion that was seen on him in Death Masks. That is why it was a close call.
My guess is that enough of Justin's lab survived that the Wardens saw plenty of evidence that he had gone Warlock... and had been for some time. Plus the signs of the recent psychic attack on Harry -- Justin's attempted Enthrallment -- would have been clear, further proving that Justin had both ATTACKED him, and had used Black Magic in doing it.
Not so sure if that one is so clear, if similar ingredients are used in both black and white magic, without spell books or actual potions it might be hard to tell them apart...
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Mira,
If DuMorne isn’t declared a warlock I don’t see how Harry survives. The WC takes black magic very seriously. If DuMorne isn’t declared a warlock all we have is a young warlock who killed an active or former warden. Does the White Council allow “oops my bad” as a defense when a warlock kills someone in earnest combat with magic?
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... Not so sure if that one isn't so clear, if similar ingredients are used in both black and white magic, without spell books or actual potions it might be hard to tell them apart...
There is SOME overlap, sure. Every senior wizard is gonna have a bit of graveyard moss for making Ghost Dust, for example.
But let's go back to Victor's scorpion... Harry felt is was an ugly bit of work, not 100% proof of black magic (until it animated, and tried to kill people), but way over to the less-pale side of the grey zone.
Similarly, he gets a "feel" from necromancy magic. The "spiritual barbed wire" spell was discernable evil.
DuMorne's lab would have had a bunch of magical tools and trinkets, ingredients & accoutrements, that would be more likely to be black-magic than not. No ONE item would be proof, but together they can form a "preponderance of the evidence" sufficient to convince many.
Intent does count, but so does symbolism... And legitimate magic needs few to none of those darker symbols. Other wardens, in particular, would see the signs of Black Magic.
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kbrizzle,
Yes, that was part of it. However, as we learned in Proven Guilty that by itself isn’t enough. The Senior Council needs to agree rehab is possible. That suggests to me that they had to find that Justin had gone bad.
Mira,
Because if a Warlock had killed a respected Warden I simply don’t think Eb saying “he’s a good kid don’t kill him” would have carried the day. They needed to agree as to why Harry could kill Dumorne and that Harry’s use of black magic in that context was justified as self defense.
I doubt that it did, however going by what happened to the Korean kid and almost to Molly I doubt that Harry was questioned too closely.. A lot hinges on the soul gaze, and Eb said that what he saw was a kid powerful as hell and angry as hell, but not unredeemable...
I think SerScot may be correct here. Yes, the soulgaze may have helped Eb's opinion of Harry, but it may have also helped point to evidence that Justin had gone bad. In one of the flashbacks in one of the early novels, Harry describes that he was about to be forced to drink blood from a human skull. (I doubt that was Bob.) I assume that would have been moments before Harry broke Elaine's binding. An image of that experience or something else damning to Justin's reputation, seen in a soulgaze with Harry might have been enough to at least make the other person in the soulgaze believe that Harry was telling the truth and then look for evidence. By the way, I wonder if Ebenezer was the only person to soulgaze Harry. Now I have to go reread the series to see if Harry avoids looking into Morgan or the Merlin's eyes.
I think that whether or not the Wardens knew that Justin had gone bad they would have done a thorough search through the ashes of Justin's home. We saw the amount of magical gear and books Harry kept in his flat. Fire can sometimes spare odd items you would think wouldn't have had a chance to survive. It would be dangerous to assume nothing could have survived a fire unless all you saw was a foundation and a chimney stack and even in that case you would take a look in the chimney.
Harry may have only had minutes before Morgan or other wardens showed up, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have moved, say fifty yards away to bury Bob.
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My point in the earlier post was that just by existing & proving a long-term relationship with Justin, Harry would’ve cast doubts on his character. Since Justin wasn’t there to ‘defend’ himself, it’s likely no one on the WC knew of his proclivities in the last 10-15 years (finding & raising 2 Starborn).
Additionally, we know what Harry saw at Victor’s lake house in StF, can you imagine the type of black magic residue that would’ve been left around Justin’s property?
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My point in the earlier post was that just by existing & proving a long-term relationship with Justin, Harry would’ve cast doubts on his character. Since Justin wasn’t there to ‘defend’ himself, it’s likely no one on the WC knew of his proclivities in the last 10-15 years (finding & raising 2 Starborn).
Additionally, we know what Harry saw at Victor’s lake house in StF, can you imagine the type of black magic residue that would’ve been left around Justin’s property?
Except that fire also sterilizes, so much of it might have burned away.. Also the suspect of dark magic warlockhood was sixteen year old Harry,not Justin, they didn't know about Elaine... To this day the Council doesn't know about her.
I think SerScot my be correct here. Yes, the soulgaze may have helped Eb's opinion of Harry, but it may have also helped point to evidence that Justin had gone bad. In one of the flashbacks in one of the early novels, Harry describes that he was about to be forced to drink blood from a human skull. (I doubt that was Bob.) I assume that would have been moments before Harry broke Elaine's binding. An image of that experience or something else damning to Justin's reputation, seen in a soulgaze with Harry might have been enough to at least make the other person in the soulgaze believe that Harry was telling the truth and then look for evidence. By the way, I wonder if Ebenezer was the only person to soulgaze Harry. Now I have to go reread the series to see if Harry avoids looking into Morgan or the Merlin's eyes.
There is evidence all through the series that Harry suffers from PTSD from what happened the night he killed Justin. Most of what happened is blocked out of his memories, he begins to have some flashbacks in Summer Knight but it isn't until Ghost Story with Lea's help that he remembers it and it isn't exactly like his first flash backs in Summer Knight.. If Harry's young traumatized mind blocked out most of what happened, how much of it can be seen through a soul gaze? A soul gaze reveals the essence of a person, it doesn't necessarily reveal memories. When Harry soul gazed Marcone, he understood what kind of person he was, however though he knew he was hiding something, Harry couldn't see what Marcone was hiding. I also doubt if Eb seriously thought Harry was a warlock that he'd have pleaded for him, grandson or not.. There is no evidence that Harry was interrogated in or before his trial,hell he had no idea what was going on, he had a hood over his
head and it was conducted in Latin, which at that time he did not speak nor understand... It wasn't until years later that he even knew it was Eb that defended him. Also if evidence had come out about Justin, why did so many Council members continue to question Harry's credibility at various times in the series? Morgan's obsession with Harry was he was convinced that Harry was a warlock..
If the truth had come out about Justin and what had happened, do you think Morgan would have still been so over the top obsessed?
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Ref: https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,53049.msg2318077.html#msg2318077
The above reference is a post I made about Justin DuMorne and Harry.
In it I speculated that Harry's memories of his fighting Justin are garbled and incomplete. So, we don't really know what happened. In fact, Harry does not know either.
We also don't have a clear description of how long Harry was with the Leanansidhe before confronting Justin, or what happened between Justin's death and Harry being taken into custody by the White Council.
APG
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Mira,
Except that fire also sterilizes, so much of it might have burned away.. Also the suspect of dark magic warlockhood was sixteen year old Harry,not Justin, they didn't know about Elaine... To this day the Council doesn't know about her.
There is evidence all through the series that Harry suffers from PTSD from what happened the night he killed Justin. Most of what happened is blocked out of his memories, he begins to have some flashbacks in Summer Knight but it isn't until Ghost Story with Lea's help that he remembers it and it isn't exactly like his first flash backs in Summer Knight.. If Harry's young traumatized mind blocked out most of what happened, how much of it can be seen through a soul gaze? A soul gaze reveals the essence of a person, it doesn't necessarily reveal memories. When Harry soul gazed Marcone, he understood what kind of person he was, however though he knew he was hiding something, Harry couldn't see what Marcone was hiding. I also doubt if Eb seriously thought Harry was a warlock that he'd have pleaded for him, grandson or not.. There is no evidence that Harry was interrogated in or before his trial,hell he had no idea what was going on, he had a hood over his
head and it was conducted in Latin, which at that time he did not speak nor understand... It wasn't until years later that he even knew it was Eb that defended him. Also if evidence had come out about Justin, why did so many Council members continue to question Harry's credibility at various times in the series? Morgan's obsession with Harry was he was convinced that Harry was a warlock..
If the truth had come out about Justin and what had happened, do you think Morgan would have still been so over the top obsessed?
I think Morgan was obsessed with Harry because he was a warlock who used black magic. He didn’t believe Harry could be reformed. The “why” of Harry’s use of Black Magic didn’t enter into Morgan’s obsession. Look at how Morgan treated Molly during Turn Coat as an example of how he feels about “reformed” Warlocks. And Molly didn’t kill anyone and was attempting to “help” her friends. And that was after Morgan appeared to show sympathy for Molly during the trial.
How much worse would his obsession be over someone who murdered with magic?
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I think Morgan was obsessed with Harry because he was a warlock who used black magic. He didn’t believe Harry could be reformed. The “why” of Harry’s use of Black Magic didn’t enter into Morgan’s obsession. Look at how Morgan treated Molly during Turn Coat as an example of how he feels about “reformed” Warlocks. And Molly didn’t kill anyone and was attempting to “help” her friends.
Based on the assumption that it was murder and not self defense...
The above reference is a post I made about Justin DuMorne and Harry.
In it I speculated that Harry's memories of his fighting Justin are garbled and incomplete. So, we don't really know what happened. In fact, Harry does not know either.
We also don't have a clear description of how long Harry was with the Leanansidhe before confronting Justin, or what happened between Justin's death and Harry being taken into custody by the White Council.
No, we don't and I doubt that much more could have been learned from young Harry at the time from either a soul gaze or even close questioning. Apparently Harry never mentioned the existence of Elaine to them, you'd think the wardens would have found evidence of her in the house if they bothered to look... Unless of course the house completely burned to the ground, which may have happened.
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Based on the assumption that it was murder and not self defense...
No, we don't and I doubt that much more could have been learned from young Harry at the time from either a soul gaze or even close questioning. Apparently Harry never mentioned the existence of Elaine to them, you'd think the wardens would have found evidence of her in the house if they bothered to look... Unless of course the house completely burned to the ground, which may have happened.
Are you saying the White Council would pardon murderers with nothing more than a plea for clemency from Eb? That they wouldn’t demand proof of reasonable self defense before pardoning Harry?
I’m trying to nail down whether you think most on the WC still think highly of DuMorne or not?
At the end of the day I think we need this story told.
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Are you saying the White Council would pardon murderers with nothing more than a plea for clemency from Eb? That they wouldn’t demand proof of reasonable self defense before pardoning Harry?
I’m trying to nail down whether you think most on the WC still think highly of DuMorne or not?
At the end of the day I think we need this story told.
Harry wasn't pardoned, he was still put under the Doom... Enough bought that his act was self defense and extraordinary for someone so young against a former warden to grant him full wizard status though he did have to go and live with Eb because he was under age... However the decision wasn't unanimous... LaFortier for example, Summer Knight page 71 paperback..
I remind the Council that his appointment to his stole was a de facto decision based on circumstantial evidence. He has never stood Trial, never been judged worthy by his peers."
"Like hell I haven't," I answered him. "I beat Justin DuMorne in a duel to the death. Is that not Trial enough for you?"
"Wizard DuMorne died, yes," LaFortier said. "Whether he was defeated in an open duel or burned in his sleep is another matter entirely."
The first part was questioning Harry's status as a wizard based on how he was declared a wizard without the usual trial or test to prove himself one... However since there were no eye witnesses as to how Harry killed Justin, LaFortier claims that the evidence for a duel was flimsy, saying that Justin could have been
murdered by Harry in his sleep.. Granted there are political considerations as to why LaFortier was proposing that Harry's wizard status be taken away, but the very fact that he could bring up the question says that while they went along with naming him a wizard not all on the Council fully bought that he killed Justin in self defense rather than murder... Also as of Summer Knight, Justin or at least his talent and power were still respected enough to call into question what really happened.. Peabody's ink may have also have played a role here influencing minds..
What I am trying to say is it was a very close call for young Harry, maybe a hung jury, and yeah, Eb as the Blackstaff standing up for him and willing to take him in under the Doom could have tipped the balance... Make no mistake though, Eb was under orders to kill Harry if he stepped out of line even slightly.. And also for those like LaForier the question as to what really happened was not settled..
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Another important consideration is that in Blood Rites, Eb makes clear Dumorne was on the LeFay team of 'we're not breaking the rules, honest. But see how far we can go already!'
Going from that to the Council reluctantly accepting he went all the way into Blackness would be little stretch (after all the Council also had put Margaret LeFay on the arrest-and-try-on-sight list eventually).
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Mira,
Harry wasn't pardoned, he was still put under the Doom... Enough bought that his act was self defense and extraordinary for someone so young against a former warden to grant him full wizard status though he did have to go and live with Eb because he was under age... However the decision wasn't unanimous... LaFortier for example, Summer Knight page 71 paperback..
The first part was questioning Harry's status as a wizard based on how he was declared a wizard without the usual trial or test to prove himself one... However since there were no eye witnesses as to how Harry killed Justin, LaFortier claims that the evidence for a duel was flimsy, saying that Justin could have been
murdered by Harry in his sleep.. Granted there are political considerations as to why LaFortier was proposing that Harry's wizard status be taken away, but the very fact that he could bring up the question says that while they went along with naming him a wizard not all on the Council fully bought that he killed Justin in self defense rather than murder... Also as of Summer Knight, Justin or at least his talent and power were still respected enough to call into question what really happened.. Peabody's ink may have also have played a role here influencing minds..
What I am trying to say is it was a very close call for young Harry, maybe a hung jury, and yeah, Eb as the Blackstaff standing up for him and willing to take him in under the Doom could have tipped the balance... Make no mistake though, Eb was under orders to kill Harry if he stepped out of line even slightly.. And also for those like LaForier the question as to what really happened was not settled..
The idea of Harry being paroled (not pardoned) for murder seems inconsistent to the way Molly’s trial was handled.
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The opening of Turn Coat says that Harry was given a suspended sentence because his “use of magic was just to survive a guy trying to kill him”. Harry was an unknown quantity to the WC who had killed a Warden. Wardens can kill when Warlocks use black magic.
If DuMorne were seen as a “good guy” why would Harry not be a executed?
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The idea of Harry being paroled (not pardoned) for murder seems inconsistent to the way Molly’s trial was handled.
I got the impression during the conversation between Harry and the Merlin when the Korean Kid got the chop that they had changed the process since Harry was tried... In other words, no trial, soul gaze and that was it... Why? Not enough full wizards to go around to train talented kids, they go astray quickly... Even less full wizards willing to take responsibility under the Doom for a kid on the boarder line or not so far along he/she cannot be pulled back... The prejudice of the moment is better safe than sorry because a warlock can do so much damage, so the chop... Molly was treated differently because Harry demanded it, she got a hearing, the hood was taken off her head, it was conducted in English... Harry was as good an advocate as the Merlin was...
I think you are being too simplistic about the verdict on Harry, I don't think it was so black and white... Yes, Harry used magic to kill Justin, but in self defense... Whether or not that is considered black magic or not clear, though Harry did admit in Death Masks that he had used it [against Justin? Not clear..] It may be that any magic used to kill another is considered dark, that is why wardens use a sword to execute.. So yes, killed Justin with magic, ergo warlock and should get the chop.. However, it was self defense against an experienced retired warden, ergo very powerful kid who may have been justified to do what he did and according to his soul gaze, not unredeemable.. Deciding factor? The Blackstaff was willing to take responsibility for him...
If DuMorne were seen as a “good guy” why would Harry not be a executed?
I don't think that part was ever made clear one way or the other... The passage I quoted from Summer Knight implies that there are some who either thought or refused to believe that Justin had gone bad.. There are others who believe that he could have.. It is all twisted up with politics and some refusing that a former warden could have gone bad, verses those who thought Justin was a son of a bitch as Eb called him..
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Mira,
I got the impression during the conversation between Harry and the Merlin when the Korean Kid got the chop that they had changed the process since Harry was tried... In other words, no trial, soul gaze and that was it... Why? Not enough full wizards to go around to train talented kids, they go astray quickly... Even less full wizards willing to take responsibility under the Doom for a kid on the boarder line or not so far along he/she cannot be pulled back... The prejudice of the moment is better safe than sorry because a warlock can do so much damage, so the chop... Molly was treated differently because Harry demanded it, she got a hearing, the hood was taken off her head, it was conducted in English... Harry was as good an advocate as the Merlin was...
I think you are being too simplistic about the verdict on Harry, I don't think it was so black and white... Yes, Harry used magic to kill Justin, but in self defense... Whether or not that is considered black magic or not clear, though Harry did admit in Death Masks that he had used it [against Justin? Not clear..] It may be that any magic used to kill another is considered dark, that is why wardens use a sword to execute.. So yes, killed Justin with magic, ergo warlock and should get the chop.. However, it was self defense against an experienced retired warden, ergo very powerful kid who may have been justified to do what he did and according to his soul gaze, not unredeemable.. Deciding factor? The Blackstaff was willing to take responsibility for him...
I don't think that part was ever made clear one way or the other... The passage I quoted from Summer Knight implies that there are some who either thought or refused to believe that Justin had gone bad.. There are others who believe that he could have.. It is all twisted up with politics and some refusing that a former warden could have gone bad, verses those who thought Justin was a son of a bitch as Eb called him..
If the soul gaze is the dertermining factor then why would the Merlin risk executing Molly after Ramirez soulgazed her and said she was redeemable?
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Speaking from the political angle, remember that Eb has friends on the Senior Council - Martha Liberty, Injun Joe, Simon Petrovich (who likely would’ve been on the SC at the time of Justin’s death) - that’s 3 votes for ‘pardoning’ Harry. I’ll bet Rashid was the 4th. We see this play out in SK.
4 out of 7 is enough to save Harry. As we see in PG, Molly is saved after enough members of the SC come through that the Merlin can’t vote their proxies.
Another point of note in this debate is the mark of HWWB on Harry - we know he gets this from his interaction with the Outsider prior to his confrontation with Justin. The SC would have to know what it is, & would know that a teenager is unlikely to have the knowledge to summon an Outsider. They would come to the seemingly logical conclusion that Justin was trying to Nfect Harry - Harry would’ve told them how Justin tried to enthrall him, which is what started their conflict.
Personally I’m not sure that it was Justin who sent HWWB, but the SC would likely see it that way.
@Mira
Do we know that Justin’s house burned down to the ground? I don’t recall reading that although it’s possible - IIRC there’s a throwaway line in one of the casefiles where Bob jokes about how Justin salvaged him from ashes of Kemmler’s place, similar to how Harry salvaged Bob from the ashes of Justin’s.
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They would come to the seemingly logical conclusion that Justin was trying to Nfect Harry - Harry would’ve told them how Justin tried to enthrall him, which is what started their conflict.
Is there any indication that the Council knows about Nemfections?
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If the soul gaze is the dertermining factor then why would the Merlin risk executing Molly after Ramerize said she was redeemable?
It was Harry, I believe that soul gazed her... Why? Because his stance was that most were not redeemable and not worth the risk, no matter what. See the debate he and Harry had right after the Korean Kid was killed. Also Harry was winning the argument on political and ethical terms which really pissed him off. Only Rashid stalling until the rest of the Council returned saved her head... That, and the fact that Harry stepped up to take responsibility for her, which in the Merlin's mind was killing two birds with one stone...
Do we know that Justin’s house burned down to the ground? I don’t recall reading that although it’s possible - IIRC there’s a throwaway line in one of the casefiles where Bob jokes about how Justin salvaged him from ashes of Kemmler’s place, similar to how Harry salvaged Bob from the ashes of Justin’s.
I think there are hints that it was, the biggest hint was at that time young Harry had little control over his spells.. A very scared Harry fighting for his life with adrenaline flowing freely would release a fire bomb that would take everything out... Remember this is one reason why he thought Elaine was dead, he thought she had perished in the fire he created leaving no trace of a body..
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Ramerize Soul Gazed Molly as well, I believe.
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Ramerize Soul Gazed Molly as well, I believe.
He examined the victims of Molly's mind probes and testified to the damage done to them, Harry, as warden, was asked if he had soul gazed Molly and did he confirm her guilt or innocence? Which he did, she was guilty, then he began to argue mitigating things in her favor... The Merlin was ready to give her the chop right then and there and he had all the proxies except for Rashid who was present... Rashid stalled until the rest of the Senior Council showed up/
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@morriswalters
I’d assume the SC does, given that Harry has mentioned how well-informed they generally are (although he criticizes the conclusions they reach with the info & mentions that their info is not of ‘street level’).
Given that Nemesis has likely been around for a while, I would be very surprised if most, if not all of the SC were at least aware of it (& secretive about it). We know they are aware of Outsiders.
@Mira
IIRC, Harry mentions looking for Elaine everywhere when he first runs into her in SK. I believe it is only after that endeavor fails that he reaches the conclusion she’s dead. Although admittedly he could’ve just thought that she ran away while he was dueling Justin.
Another suspicious thing about the duel is that Justin never used a death curse - no doubt this gives some credence to Lafortier’s claim that Harry might’ve burned Justin in his sleep.
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...
Given that Nemesis has likely been around for a while, I would be very surprised if most, if not all of the SC were at least aware of it (& secretive about it). We know they are aware of Outsiders...
I would note that the WC seems to be VERY averse to admitting (even to themselves) the possibility of active conspiracies and covert actions, other than from known agencies (i.e. pre-Changes, they'd readily admit the Ramps had covert actions against them).
I suspect that individual wizards have noticed Nemfection, but that "the Council" does not admit there is any pattern, or overarching agency. The Senior Council does not discuss it as a body, the Merlin denies it to all & permits no discussion, etc.
I expect the same policy as with talk of a "Black Council," basically.
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IIRC, Harry mentions looking for Elaine everywhere when he first runs into her in SK. I believe it is only after that endeavor fails that he reaches the conclusion she’s dead...
You're right; I hadn't recalled that scene. That DOES speak to Harry not actually seeing anything happen to Elaine. It's a terrible fire, he fears the worst, but didn't (for example) see a flaming building collapse that he "knew" she was inside. Only after extensive magical searching does he admit to himself that she's dead.
I mean... yes, Harry's psyche often visits Egypt to go swimming, so it's possible that (based on what he saw) any reasonable person would have concluded she was dead (but Harry, shockingly, wasn't being reasonable).
But Occam's razor says Harry didn't really know, not from seeing it; he feared the worst, and confirmed his fears from extensive magical search.
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IIRC, Harry mentions looking for Elaine everywhere when he first runs into her in SK. I believe it is only after that endeavor fails that he reaches the conclusion she’s dead. Although admittedly he could’ve just thought that she ran away while he was dueling Justin.
Another suspicious thing about the duel is that Justin never used a death curse - no doubt this gives some credence to Lafortier’s claim that Harry might’ve burned Justin in his sleep.
No, Harry's first reaction upon finding her in his place was shock, "You're alive." Then he repeats it and then asks her in a kind of angry tone, why she never contacted him? You don't react that way unless you actually thought someone was dead... Also in the earlier books he feels great guilt about her because he truly believes she perished in the fire he created when he killed Justin..
Actually we don't know whether or not Justin threw a death curse... He may have and for some reason didn't direct it towards Harry... We learned in Ghost Story or at least from speculation on Harry's part based on what Lea helped him to remember there was a lot of double crossing going around, Justin may have aimed it in that direction.. Or he wasn't prepared to throw one because he didn't think Harry would succeed in beating him in a duel... Or the fire bomb came so fast and so hot he never got a chance... Also how would LaFortier know one way or another that Justin had thrown his curse?
But Occam's razor says Harry didn't really know, not from seeing it; he feared the worst, and confirmed his fears from extensive magical search.
Exactly...
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... No, Harry's first reaction upon finding her in his place was shock, "You're alive." Then he repeats it and then asks her in a kind of angry tone, why she never contacted him? You don't react that way unless you actually thought someone was dead...
Summer Knight, Ch.Eight (about halfway through (pg.123 in my paperback copy)) --
"I... I looked for you," I said quietly. "In fire and water.
I had spirits combing the Earth for any trace of you. Hoping that you'd survived."
"But where have you been?" I asked. "Elaine, I looked for you for years. Years."
Elaine had left before the fight concluded.
Harry hadn't seen anything to indicate either way; but when he couldn't find her, he assumed she was dead. It's a reasonable assumption: he's the stronger wizard and (while she's better on the finesse-and-style front) Harry is particularly adept with "finding" things/people/etc (but not vs. one of the Summer Queens, of course!!! But he had no indication she might have such patronage/protection...) .
But he certainly didn't do all that while awaiting trial!
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I would guess that the WC did not know of Justin being a Warlock because he was a Warden and WC Wizard in good standing. When Harry killed Justin. The WC then investigated Justin (and Harry's claims) and found evidence that he was a Warlock. Sort of like a girl escapes from a serial killer's basement and tells the police. That serial killer was a citizen in good standing and no one looked at some of the minor suspicious things he did, even the neighbors. When the truth comes out then the authorities investigate and find the evidence.
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Harry hadn't seen anything to indicate either way; but when he couldn't find her, he assumed she was dead. It's a reasonable assumption: he's the stronger wizard and (while she's better on the finesse-and-style front) Harry is particularly adept with "finding" things/people/etc (but not vs. one of the Summer Queens, of course!!! But he had no indication she might have such patronage/protection...) .
People never fully give up hope that a lost loved one can be found alive when there is no body to confirm that they are not... But Harry's first reaction says he felt she was dead, he really had no reason to think otherwise.
I would guess that the WC did not know of Justin being a Warlock because he was a Warden and WC Wizard in good standing. When Harry killed Justin. The WC then investigated Justin (and Harry's claims) and found evidence that he was a Warlock. Sort of like a girl escapes from a serial killer's basement and tells the police. That serial killer was a citizen in good standing and no one looked at some of the minor suspicious things he did, even the neighbors. When the truth comes out then the authorities investigate and find the evidence.
Yet apparently the evidence wasn't enough to totally convince many on the Council that Harry wasn't a murderer... Otherwise LaFortier wouldn't have been able to use it the way he did as an excuse to take away Harry's wizard status as part of a elaborate political maneuver to placate the Red Court to turn Harry over to them..
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I would guess that the WC did not know of Justin being a Warlock because he was a Warden and WC Wizard in good standing. When Harry killed Justin. The WC then investigated Justin (and Harry's claims) and found evidence that he was a Warlock. Sort of like a girl escapes from a serial killer's basement and tells the police. That serial killer was a citizen in good standing and no one looked at some of the minor suspicious things he did, even the neighbors. When the truth comes out then the authorities investigate and find the evidence.
But Justin wasn't in good standing. He was a groupie of Maggie LeFay and now he had an unknown apprentice on the possible chopping block for black magic.
In fact, that seems much more with what Mira argues - the above is definitely enough to consider Justin suspicious and so if someone calls him a black magician you have to take it seriously - but without proof, you won't say it's that way for sure, and it can later be doubted by LaFortier.
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@g33k
Thanks for pulling up that quote, it was exactly what I was referencing.
@Mira
I am not convinced that Harry burned Justin’s house to the ground - remember that even when he cuts loose at Bianca’s ball in GP, he burns a dozen people but doesn’t burn down the entire building (although he does damage it severely).
If even the structure of the house is standing & some magical artifacts are not destroyed (like Bob), I believe members of the SC can likely sense black magic residue.
@Avernite
Exactly, and since Justin is dead he is unable to defend himself from any of Harry’s accusations. Circumstantially even Justin was seen as ok person by the WC, the facts gleaned from investigating Harry’s story would cast Justin in a very poor light.
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I am not convinced that Harry burned Justin’s house to the ground - remember that even when he cuts loose at Bianca’s ball in GP, he burns a dozen people but doesn’t burn down the entire building (although he does damage it severely).
If even the structure of the house is standing & some magical artifacts are not destroyed (like Bob), I believe members of the SC can likely sense black magic residue.
A large building or residence might not burn like a smaller wooden house for one thing. Another factor is Harry has better control as of Grave Peril, sixteen year old Harry had no control, he had "killed" an Outsider previously, but that was with the help of gasoline running from a dropped hose.. He has no idea as to how strong he is, he cut lose because he thought rightfully that Justin was either going to kill him or enthrall him, KABOOM! End of story, and if it was an older small wooden house, it would burn fast and hot, clear to the ground...
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All this talk about burning buildings makes me want to watch Backdraft again. That was a good movie.