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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Hankthemoose on May 31, 2019, 11:16:35 AM
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I'm rereading Summer Knight, and two things really stuck out to me.
-Lea was under the influence of the athame when she sold Harry's debt to Mab.
-Mab considered Harry's debt to Lea—at the time of Summer Knight!—to be of equal value to Morgana's Athame, which Lea says has similar value as a Sword, not because of what it is, but because of who's it is.
At this time, Harry is not anything particularly special, beyond the fact that he has a debt. It sounds like, though, lots of wizards occasionally indebt themselves to the Sidhe, though few probably do so to someone on Lea's level. Why would Mab allow Lea to keep the Athame in exchange for Harry's debt?
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I was under the impression that Lea was forced to sell her debt to Mab since possession of both the athame + Harry’s debt made her too powerful individually (upset the balance of power in the Winter hierarchy).
There are 2 ways to look at the value of Harry’s debt.
- As a Starborn & future top 5 wizard, Harry has a lot more power than he is aware of in SK. Having him bonded to Winter (since his proclivities seem to be towards Summer) early is a great idea & may actually be equal in value to a Sword or the athame.
- The other way of looking at it is that Harry’s debt is valuable, but not as much as a Sword or athame. If Lea+Athame+Debt = too powerful, perhaps by taking away the Debt, Mab has rebalanced things back in the Winter Court
This part is my WAG about what likely happened between SK-Changes:
Unfortunately the power grab after GP made Lea #3 in Winter, not powerful enough to take on Mab who is #2 (#1 would be MW), but more powerful than Maeve who is the current #3. Mab obviously wants Lea back down to #4 position to keep the hierarchy of the Court in order, so she orders Lea to give up her debt to Harry in compensation as well as all her knowledge about him (including the fact that he is a Starborn). This is why Lea tells Harry to never let Mab bring him to the Stone Table in both SK & Changes - Mab is now aware that Harry is a Starborn & may decide to sacrifice him there if such a need should arise.
Of course after Maeve gets Nfected & Lea cured, Mab decides to make her #3 anyway. Lea will likely stay at #3 until Molly is fully trained - in ~5-10 years.
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I did not think Leah sold her debt at all; Mab was doing Leah's duties while she was being cured of her Nemfection, since Leah was Mab's vassal, and so Mab had to be a good ruler and take up her Vassal's duties and obligations as a balance for rendering said Vassal unable to do them herself?
It's been a bit, so I could be misremembering.
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I did not think Leah sold her debt at all; Mab was doing Leah's duties while she was being cured of her Nemfection, since Leah was Mab's vassal, and so Mab had to be a good ruler and take up her Vassal's duties and obligations as a balance for rendering said Vassal unable to do them herself?
It's been a bit, so I could be misremembering.
You're misremembering, yeah. Lea sold Harry's debt to her to Mab somewhere between Grave Peril and Summer Knight. This is a separate thing from Lea's duties as Harry's godmother, which Mab was fulfilling while she had Lea imprisoned.
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Ah yes, I remember now. Mab shows Harry she has his debt by making him stab his own hand.
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I don't really understand how that would have worked. If Mab acquires Harry's debt to Lea, doesn't she have to give Lea something? Wouldn't an imbalance remain?
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Maybe Lea owed Mab, for failing her duties by getting corrupted?
Or maybe Lea owed Mab because Mab was healing her, and thus Harry's debt was to pay for services rendered (the being cured of Nemesis)
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Mab had not yet found out that Lea was corrupted.
I returned to Faerie with great power and upset vital balances. Those balances had to be redressed, your debt was the mechanism that the Queen chose to employ.
From the quote and the text around it, it is unclear even if an exchange took place. If there was a debt used as the purchase price for Harry's debt, then the balance would still remain the same. Perhaps the debt was more valuable in the hands of Mab than the Leanansidhe because of some limitation she had based on her bargain with Margaret.
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I was under the impression that it was the Athame that Mab did not want Lea to have - she has probably known about Harry’s debt for decades... I believe this was the point of gifting the Nfected dagger to Lea - she would be forced to give it/ trade it to Mab as a way to maintain the Winter power hierarchy.
However, 2 things ruined this plan:
- Lea as a Winter Fae is power-hungry by nature. She had her own designs for the athame (to end that which stalks us all) & tried to hold on as long as possible
- Mab realizes after the unusual death of Ronald Reuel that a BC plan is afoot but her WK will be useless in doing anything, so she realizes that Harry’s debt is currently more useful to her than the athame
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I think the actual events are different than Hankthemoose described. Based on what was described Dead Beat, Lea challenged Mab in some way. Mab stated that Lea thought the atheme gave her that right and she showed her the error of her ways.
We know from later books that this is when Mab realized lea was infected. We also learn that the challenge was related to Harry - specifically Lea was desperate to help Harry against the necromancers in Dead Beat. That desperation was presumably what tipped Mab off about the infection as it is not typical of Fey. But I cannot remember which books gave this info, but they were late stage books (cold days perhaps).
I also believe that Mab was holding the Atheme during her meeting with Harry during Dead Beat, but I am a bit hazy on this. If correct, then Mab had already taken the Atheme from Lea and cleansed it. Certainly Lea was aware that the athemea was how she was infected and holds a grudge -- which she explained to harry to justify Mab using her to help him during Changes. Mab was doing a favor for Lea to allow her to get her revenge on the red court - otherwise lea's services would have been much more expensive to Mab.
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I think the actual events are different than Hankthemoose described. Based on what was described Dead Beat, Lea challenged Mab in some way. Mab stated that Lea thought the atheme gave her that right and she showed her the error of her ways.
We know from later books that this is when Mab realized lea was infected. We also learn that the challenge was related to Harry - specifically Lea was desperate to help Harry against the necromancers in Dead Beat. That desperation was presumably what tipped Mab off about the infection as it is not typical of Fey. But I cannot remember which books gave this info, but they were late stage books (cold days perhaps).
I also believe that Mab was holding the Atheme during her meeting with Harry during Dead Beat, but I am a bit hazy on this. If correct, then Mab had already taken the Atheme from Lea and cleansed it. Certainly Lea was aware that the athemea was how she was infected and holds a grudge -- which she explained to harry to justify Mab using her to help him during Changes. Mab was doing a favor for Lea to allow her to get her revenge on the red court - otherwise lea's services would have been much more expensive to Mab.
Lea didn't think the Athame "gave her the right". It simply made it possible for her to act against her inherent nature, and so to violate the terms of her relationship to Mab, which would be obvious to Mab regardless of exactly how she "challenged" her.
I just reread most of the series for maybe the 6th or 7th time a week ago, and there is no indication that I've ever seen that this challenge is in any way related to Harry, or that Lea is even interested in supporting Harry against the Kemmlerites in Dead Beat. Lea is encased in ice at the time, why would she even know about those events at all? Why would she be desperate? Are you just making stuff up? That's a huge reach unless you've got a source for it.
Please provide references for what you're talking about, or just a quick quote.
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How could an exchange take place when Lea possessed both Harry's debt and the Knife? Also Maeve enters into this at some point as well.. She also had gotten the Knife either from Lea or her mother, that is how she got infected before Mab realized the Knife was infected in the first place.. See Cold Days.. Another question, since Lea was Harry's godmother, why didn't that give her more say over his debt to her? Also as of Summer Knight, Lea was not yet symptoms of infection from the Knife.
I think it was a bit more complicated than a simple exchange.... Lea had made a promise to Harry's mother to keep him safe, I think Mab wanted him dead and Lea exchanged his debt to her for his life... I don't think the Knife was part of that exchange, I think Lea had already passed it on to Maeve...
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The timeline is,
We see Lea in Summer Knight, where she takes Harry to Chicago over Chicago, and warns him never to let Mab take him to the stone table. This may have been the event that triggered Mab's suspicions. Though that is speculation.
We next hear of Lea in Dead Beat. When Harry summons Lea , Mab appears wearing a knife that is assumed to be the Atheme. She tells Harry that Lea is detained but in no danger.
And the in Proven Guilty We see Lea and learn of the infection.
In Changes we see Lea when Mab brings Harry to the Stone Table to kill Slade and take the Winter Mantle. Lea reminds harry that she had warned him never to do this. Mab will draw blood on Lea when Lea speaks out of turn. All of this takes place in chapter 31.“Yeah. But why?” I asked. “Why would your voice hurt me?”
“Because she is angry,” answered the Leanansidhe in her natural voice. “Because her voice is a part of her power, and her rage is too great to be contained.”
I swallowed. Mab had spoken a few words to me a couple of years back, and I’d reacted exactly as she described. I’d lost a few minutes of time during the episode her words had provoked as well. “Rage?” I asked. “About what?”
The shadowed figure let out a spitting hiss, another feline sound that made me flinch and cringe away from it as if from the lash of a whip. My godmother jerked sharply to one side. She straightened only slowly, and as she did I saw that a long, fine cut had been drawn across one of her cheeks. Blood welled up and dripped down slowly.
My godmother bowed her head to Mab, and the cold voice came from her mouth again. “It is not for my handmaiden to judge or question me, nor to speak for me upon her own account.”
Lea bowed her head to Mab again, and not a flicker of either anger or chagrin showed in her features.
Harry states his terms for accepting the Mantle. One of those is Mab's help at Chechen Itza. “That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”
“There,” I said quietly to Mab. “My part is done. Time for you to live up to yours.”
“No, child,” said Mab’s voice through Lea’s lips. “Your part is only begun. But fear not. I am Mab. The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word.” She tilted her head slightly to one side, toward my godmother, and said, “I give thee this adviser for thy final quest, sir Knight. My handmaiden is among the most powerful beings in all of my Winter, second only to myself.”
Lea’s warmer, more languid voice came from her lips as she asked, “My queen, to what degree am I permitted to act?”
I thought I saw the fell light gleam on Mab’s teeth as Lea’s lips said, “You may indulge yourself.”
Lea’s mouth spread into a wide, dangerous smile of its own, and she bowed her head and upper body toward the Queen of Winter.
I speculated about the timing of Mab's suspicions of Lea due to Lea's remarks about the Stone Table in the two different Books. In the first she whispers it to Harry as if she doesn't want Mab to know,Lea completed her circuit of the table and stopped beside me. She glanced furtively around her, then looked me in the eyes and said, her voice barely audible, "Child. Should you survive this conflict, do not let Mab bring you here. Never."
in the second while speaking for Mab.“I warned you,” said a calm voice behind me. “Never let her bring you here, my godchild.”
As a side note unrelated to the topic this is the second time that we see that Mab, under some kind of condition, is capable of looking anywhere to see persons of interest to her.
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We next hear of Lea in Dead Beat. When Harry summons Lea , Mab appears wearing a knife that is assumed to be the Atheme. She tells Harry that Lea is detained but in no danger.
True, but what we don't know is how Mab acquired the Atheme.. We know that Lea is detained, but don't know if it is because she defied Mab or because she is showing symptoms of infection or both.. As of Summer Knight Maeve appears more or less sane if one can go by the scene in Mac's bar... However at some point she came in contact with the Atheme, became infected to the point where Mab couldn't cure her as she had Lea or herself.. So was Mab's contact with the infected Atheme brief? We next hear of Lea in Dead Beat. When Harry summons Lea , Mab appears wearing a knife that is assumed to be the Atheme. She tells Harry that Lea is detained but in no danger.
So one assumes that Mab got the Atheme from Lea... But in Cold Days after Maeve's death Mab says. page 503 hardcover
"It was the knife," Mab said.
"Knife?"
"Morgana's athame," Mab said in a neutral tone---but her eyes were far away." The one given by the Red Court at Bianca's masquerade. That is how the Leanansidhe was tainted---and your godmother spread it to Maeve before I could set it right."
Which begs the question as to how the infection is spread in the first place... Because either Lea gave the knife to Maeve and Mab took it from her before Dead Beat, or it can be spread through other means which Mab was unaware of before it had gone too far in Maeve...
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@ Mira: I don't think that Maeve was directly infected with the knife. It isn't necessary as I strongly doubt that's what was used to infect Cat Sith. I take Mab's quote as Lea was infected by the knife and Lea, not the knife, spread the infection.
We also learn that the challenge was related to Harry - specifically Lea was desperate to help Harry against the necromancers in Dead Beat. That desperation was presumably what tipped Mab off about the infection as it is not typical of Fey. But I cannot remember which books gave this info, but they were late stage books (cold days perhaps).
I don't know where this if coming from, but I'm 99% certain it isn't the books.
@Morris: Are you referring to something in the quotes you supplied, or when Mab shows Maggie to Harry, which is near all this?
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I don't know where this if coming from, but I'm 99% certain it isn't the books.
I don';t know either but have heard it before, so maybe a WoJ?
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@Morris: Are you referring to something in the quotes you supplied, or when Mab shows Maggie to Harry, which is near all this?
Yeah, sorry if that wasn't clear. She shows Harry little Maggie as she is in real time.
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I don';t know either but have heard it before, so maybe a WoJ?
I've heard it before too. Here. I try to listen to all the WoJ, but it's not like there is a central repository that's easy to track. This https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/board,43.0.html (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/board,43.0.html) is about as close as I've seen. Anyway, I don't recall hearing it from Jim.
@Morris: Cool.
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True, but what we don't know is how Mab acquired the Atheme.. We know that Lea is detained, but don't know if it is because she defied Mab or because she is showing symptoms of infection or both.
Yes and no. There are hints."Because I do not tolerate challenges to my authority," she said. One pale hand drifted to the hilt of the knife at her belt. "Certain events had convinced your godmother that she was no longer bound by my word and will. She is now learning otherwise."
We know that Mab's word is Law. Why was Lea able to warn Harry about the hazards of the Stone Table? How Jim uses language in the first quote is as important as what she actually says. If Mab doesn't care if Harry knows then she needn't be furtive, if on the other hand she has been told to tell him of the table but not the implications for him, how was she able to speak at all. When Titania doesn't want Lilly and Fix to talk to Harry about her wishes they can't.
However from the tinfoil hat section of the stadium. When Lea is on the crazy tree in Proven Guilty she says.Some of the strength seemed to ebb from her, and she suddenly seemed exhausted. “I grew too arrogant with the power I held. I thought I could overcome what stalks us all."
Did she know the Atheme was infected with nemesis when she got it?
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I'm fairly certain that Lea didn't know that the athame was infected. That's why she refers to the gifts as treacherous. Then again, it is often hard to properly interpret what a fairy actually means. For example, it could be said a Sidhe's promises are treacherous.
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It is my belief that Maeve was infected during the battle of the Stone Table during Summer Knight. In all that confusion and focus on Harry killing Aurora and Lily's ascension, it would be an ideal time to spread the infection to Maeve.
Initially Mab only saw Lea having both a strong Word-promised debt of Harry which would allow her to manipulate and control the young mortal wizard, and the Athame as too much power initially, so, she took Harry's debt because that would be a better long term use than the evil blade. After all, Harry used impressive guile to outwit Lea while in Winter's domain specifically when she had all the power and courage to risk his own life in saving himself. Mab probably watched the confrontation of Harry and Bianca, either in live form or some fae observing (she isn't bound from not using the information to harm Bianca because she is dead), and sees Harry's wrath and love driving him to make war. Remember that Mab respects Love and the way it can drive people to do some very dark things.
Mab: So many terrible things are done for love. For love will men mutilate themselves and murder rivals. For love will even a peaceful man go to war. For love, man will destroy himself, and that right willingly.
During the in between of Summer Knight and Dead Beat, Lea tried something more overt, a direct confrontation of Mab, insubordination, or something which should never happen in their old dynamics. Lea has enough strength of will to recognize her ailment and condition, and this is what makes Mab decide to spare her and heal her, rather than remove a dangerous and infected person. Perhaps on some level Mab even loves Lea, making the choice to destroy her all the harder.
After Dead Beat, maybe during one cleansing of Lea, Lea is able to confess or Mab is able to determine based on Maeve's lack of response to the Vampires invading their domain, Maeve was infected too. This is what leads to her anger in Small Favor and needing to use a translator.
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Initially Mab only saw Lea having both a strong Word-promised debt of Harry which would allow her to manipulate and control the young mortal wizard, and the Athame as too much power initially, so, she took Harry's debt because that would be a better long term use than the evil blade. After all, Harry used impressive guile to outwit Lea while in Winter's domain specifically when she had all the power and courage to risk his own life in saving himself. Mab probably watched the confrontation of Harry and Bianca, either in live form or some fae observing (she isn't bound from not using the information to harm Bianca because she is dead), and sees Harry's wrath and love driving him to make war. Remember that Mab respects Love and the way it can drive people to do some very dark things.
I think Mab is well aware that Harry is starborn as well as a wizard, she most likely impressed how he managed to clear her of the charges of murdering the Summer Knight, which also left her short a Winter Knight... So quite natural she'd want him on her team.... Let's not forget that though Mab may have taken on Harry's debt to Lea, she still could not force him to become her Knight. As a mortal, Harry still has free will...
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I think Mab is well aware that Harry is starborn as well as a wizard ...
Indeed!
I think Mab knew Harry as a Starborn wizard from his birth. I think that is WHY she interacts with him at all, and the entirety of her intention toward him.
His mom was well-known to the upper echelons of Winter. Bargaining with the Leanansidhe -- Mab's Right Hand -- to be Harry's godmother? The Ruby Waystone? These are not small matters! Harry's birth was well-known to Winter; Harry's wizardly potential as Margaret's child, his Starborn potential from his birth-circumstances... obvious to Winter.
But if his Mom's preperations were not small matters, neither is Harry a "small matter" -- a Starborn wizard never is! As an apprentice, he defeated one of the most-mighty Outsider Knights there is. How big a deal is that, really?
Well... when the cadre of WC refugees arrived (and settled the Molly case in favor of a Doom over her and Harry), we learned that the Outsider assault would have likely taken them all (if not for Michael); and who was the wizard fighting those outsiders? The Blackstaff, the WC's most dangerous and deadly combatant. And apprentice-Harry was punching in that weight-class.
To be brutally frank -- Mab NEEDS that kind of power to be part of the defenses of the Outer Gates. Therefore, she needs Harry.
All of Mab's interactions with Harry -- including making him Winter Knight -- are about making him a better, stronger wizard, so he can fight the Outsiders better.
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To be brutally frank -- Mab NEEDS that kind of power to be part of the defenses of the Outer Gates. Therefore, she needs Harry.
Yes, and Harry is well aware that she needs him more than he needs her... That is why he is able to give her crap in Harry fashion and she takes most of it pretty well..
All of Mab's interactions with Harry -- including making him Winter Knight -- are about making him a better, stronger wizard, so he can fight the Outsiders better.
Yes, she is toughening him up to make the hard choices...
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Yes, and Harry is well aware that she needs him more than he needs her... That is why he is able to give her crap in Harry fashion and she takes most of it pretty well...
I don't think Harry has realized, yet.
I think he hasn't delved into the implications of being a "Starborn" and what that REALLY means. I don't think he has spotted Mab's special interest in them.
I think he's still stuck in the OMG-ness of being in Mab's crosshairs.
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Just for the record, until Harry no longer needs magical aids to walk to the bathroom, he definitely needs Mab more than she needs him. Paralysis is funny that way.
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Just for the record, until Harry no longer needs magical aids to walk to the bathroom, he definitely needs Mab more than she needs him. Paralysis is funny that way.
Jim has made at least one ambiguous statement about whether or not Harry is actually paralyzed without the Winter Knight mantle, so this may not be true--although Harry almost certainly believes it is.
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Jim has made at least one ambiguous statement about whether or not Harry is actually paralyzed without the Winter Knight mantle, so this may not be true--although Harry almost certainly believes it is.
The thing is, if Harry's spine isn't really healed then she broke her part of the bargain.. She can make Harry believe that it isn't healed unless he remains her Knight.. However having said that, she takes more guff off of him than she would any other ordinary mortal.
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As of Cold Days Chapter 29 page 297 of the Kindle Edition.
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As of Cold Days Chapter 29 page 297 of the Kindle Edition.
As of this, what?
If you mean, "as of this, we have evidence that Harry's back is broken," this section is what Jim's ambiguous statement was referring to--if I recall correctly, he said that "it's almost as if someone didn't know what was going on/didn't have all the facts/was being deceived about what was happening," or some such. The gist of it was that Harry could have been mistaken when he thought that his back was still broken under the mantle.
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And abruptly my body went numb and useless from my stomach down.
Seems crystal to me. If what you say is correct I assume it is misdirection. However if you happen to run it down, post it, I'd love to read it.
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Seems crystal to me. If what you say is correct I assume it is misdirection. However if you happen to run it down, post it, I'd love to read it.
Here it is:
Somebody ...pointed out that that at one point when Harry crossed Mab and Mab took the mantle away from him, when he broke Winter Law, that his back collapsed too, but his back didn't collapse when he got pierced by iron, and I looked at him, and I said, "You're right! That seems like an inconsistency. Like maybe someone is lying or does not understand the exact situation of things or something like that. Huh," and then I said to him what I'll say to you: "Next question."
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDJDn-ggqOo&feature=youtu.be&t=15m35s
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Thank You. Misdirection then.