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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Eguzky on May 31, 2019, 01:12:59 AM
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Put in spoilers because I'm referring to Goodman grey.
In Turn Coat, Bob says 'They don't need to recombine DNA' and that they don't have a gender, when Dresden asks if the Shagnasty is a He.
..If that is the case, how did Goodman Grey become the scion of one?
It's always kind of bothered me.
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If you ask me, I say just because a Nagloshi don't need to recombine DNA, does not need they can't do it.
A nagloshi can take a human form and in that form a Nagloshi could likely procreate. This could happened for many reasons. Maybe it is a deal with some dark wizard. It might be a punishment for someone. Sexual intercourse is one of the primal rituals of humankind, we don't know what metaphisical weight the act carries or how it could be use to gain power magically. A white court could drain energy via the act for example.
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If you ask me, I say just because a Nagloshi don't need to recombine DNA, does not need they can't do it.
A nagloshi can take a human form and in that form a Nagloshi could likely procreate. This could happened for many reasons. Maybe it is a deal with some dark wizard. It might be a punishment for someone. Sexual intercourse is one of the primal rituals of humankind, we don't know what metaphisical weight the act carries or how it could be use to gain power magically. A white court could drain energy via the act for example.
Isn't it the theory that Mr Grey's father is a Naagloshii?
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Isn't it the theory that Mr Grey's father is a Naagloshii?
Well, it's not a theory. It's outright said that Goodman Grey is the scion of a Naagloshii and a human.
If you ask me, I say just because a Nagloshi don't need to recombine DNA, does not need they can't do it.
A nagloshi can take a human form and in that form a Nagloshi could likely procreate. This could happened for many reasons. Maybe it is a deal with some dark wizard. It might be a punishment for someone. Sexual intercourse is one of the primal rituals of humankind, we don't know what metaphisical weight the act carries or how it could be use to gain power magically. A white court could drain energy via the act for example.
True. I guess, while shape-shifting, they could give themselves a gender.
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Well, it's not a theory. It's outright said that Goodman Grey is the scion of a Naagloshii and a human.
I agree, but was being diplomatic because it was the subject of a very heated thread a couple of years back...
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It would still be a theory that his father was a skin walker, right? Or did Jim specifically mention which side of the equation his skin walker heritage game from? Admittedly, it would make more sense that it was from his father's side.
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It would still be a theory that his father was a skin walker, right? Or did Jim specifically mention which side of the equation his skin walker heritage game from? Admittedly, it would make more sense that it was from his father's side.
I'm guessing, if Skinwalkers have no natural gender, they could be either gender. But I think Goodman grey says his father was a Naagloshii.
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You're right. I'd round the percentages on that one up to 100.
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I'm guessing, if Skinwalkers have no natural gender, they could be either gender. But I think Goodman grey says his father was a Naagloshii.
He strongly hints at it.... Theory, there are creatures in nature who are asexual and yet when they need to, reproduce sexually... A Naagloshii may be such a creature, they can take on the human form, it is logical that when they do that includes the sex organs. Now the bigger question, are the sex organs merely cosmetic? Or does the inner human reproductive pluming come with the transformation? If it does, then it is possible for them to reproduce in my opinion.. It may be rare that they chose to do it, but it is possible.
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And given how they groove on inflicting pain and have intellectus on what would hurt somebody to their core, it probably means the worst thing Grey's father could do to some poor woman was force her to carry and raise a half-monster baby. That's probably one of the darkest origin stories for any character in the entire series.
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What if Grey's mother was a nun? Given the evil proclivities of skinwalkers, I could imagine one raping a nun and impregnating her in order to torture her. Having her know that her child was the offspring of a monster, but not believing in abortion (or perhaps abortion didn't exist back then) she would have to carry the child.
What if she decided to raise the scion to be good? Naming him Goodman as a constant reminder to him. Remember, he did the job for Harry for $1 iirc. What if the "rent" he was paying was his saintly mother?
Torn between and evil father and a saintly mother, he is a mix of both.
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What if Grey's mother was a nun? Given the evil proclivities of skinwalkers, I could imagine one raping a nun and impregnating her in order to torture her. Having her know that her child was the offspring of a monster, but not believing in abortion (or perhaps abortion didn't exist back then) she would have to carry the child.
What if she decided to raise the scion to be good? Naming him Goodman as a constant reminder to him. Remember, he did the job for Harry for $1 iirc. What if the "rent" he was paying was his saintly mother?
Torn between and evil father and a saintly mother, he is a mix of both.
Abortion has existed as long as women have been having babies... Safety and legality is another matter, but if a woman doesn't want to give birth to a child, she will find a way not to... It doesn't always work though, but the idea of a raped nun is interesting.. Or she doesn't have to be a nun, supposed the woman only saw the skin walker in his human form and fell in love having no idea until after she gave birth that his father was a monster?
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I was referring to abortion in the modern, medical sense, not the bent wire or sharp stick sense.
I can't imagine a skinwalker falling in love. Unless there are good skinwalkers, which you would have to show me proof of.
But determining to raise her son to be good in defiance of the monster that assaulted her?
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Abortion has existed as long as women have been having babies... Safety and legality is another matter, but if a woman doesn't want to give birth to a child, she will find a way not to...
It does require a modicum of freedom, for the woman; and a certain degree of availability, from those with the knowledge and/or skills... Those aren't ALWAYS available. It's not like just because it was known to the Grecian Hetarae 2500 years ago, it was equally available to peasants 1000 years ago... Sometimes those "old wives tales" work, and sometimes they don't.
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I can't imagine a skinwalker falling in love. Unless there are good skinwalkers, which you would have to show me proof of.
I think if you re-read what he wrote you'll likely conclude that he meant the woman falls in love with the Naagloshii, not the other way around. :)
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I think if you re-read what he wrote you'll likely conclude that he meant the woman falls in love with the Naagloshii, not the other way around. :)
Exactly...
It does require a modicum of freedom, for the woman; and a certain degree of availability, from those with the knowledge and/or skills... Those aren't ALWAYS available. It's not like just because it was known" to the Grecian Hetarae 2500 years ago, it was equally available to peasants 1000 years ago... Sometimes those "old wives tales" work, and sometimes they don't.
But women have always found a way not to carry a child to term if they don't want it.. Often with tragic results for both the woman and the child... Just because a woman was a peasant doesn't mean she didn't have access to poisonous plants and herbs, or just have"accidents" the local "wise woman" or witch, medicine woman would know ways..
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I read it perfectly fine the first time. My point, which was apparently missed, was that you could fall in love with a grizzly bear; but if you try to give that grizzly a kiss you're going to get eaten.
The only way she could fall in love with a naagloshii is if it tricked her into it.
And my comment about rape was not about methodology. My hypothesis was that she would not, regardless if it were possible. Otherwise the whole theory falls apart.
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I read it perfectly fine the first time. My point, which was apparently missed, was that you could fall in love with a grizzly bear; but if you try to give that grizzly a kiss you're going to get eaten.
The only way she could fall in love with a naagloshii is if it tricked her into it.
And my comment about rape was not about methodology. My hypothesis was that she would not, regardless if it were possible. Otherwise the whole theory falls apart.
If it kept to it's human form she wouldn't have a clue that she was making love to a grizzly.. If it stayed in human form, she wouldn't know until the kid was born with a rude awakening.
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I severely doubt the a skinwalker (who is supposed to be evil) would be interested in having a human love it. Given what Jim has told us about them, I think it more likely that it would rape a nun and torture her for nine months rather than have a woman believe that she (nun or not) was in love for nine months.
It would prefer cause her (if she were a nun) to question her faith, her religion, forcing her to commit (what the catholic church considers) a mortal sin of either abortion or suicide.
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I severely doubt the a skinwalker (who is supposed to be evil) would be interested in having a human love it. Given what Jim has told us about them, I think it more likely that it would rape a nun and torture her for nine months rather than have a woman believe that she (nun or not) was in love for nine months.
A skinwalker is clever, sadistic and is very capable of taking human form and seducing a woman if the incentive was good enough to do it... Love is irrational, especially a mother's love.. So it would reveal itself after the child was born, then continue to get at the mother through her child...
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Or he could do what a lot of men do.
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Or he could do what a lot of men do.
Exactly, only worse than what the worst of the worst of men would do....
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I guess it comes down to opinion. What is more sadistic and traumatizing: loving someone or raping someone?
Either way, it leads to the same end. The mother tries to raise the monster to be good to spite the father.
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I guess it comes down to opinion. What is more sadistic and traumatizing: loving someone or raping someone?
Either way, it leads to the same end. The mother tries to raise the monster to be good to spite the father.
Very true, only difference perhaps is rape is mostly an act of violence.. Something the skin walker is very capable of... However seduction of the victim, making her fall in love before the reveal that it is actually a horrible monster? That is down right sadistic, something the skinwalker excels at....
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Very true, only difference perhaps is rape is mostly an act of violence.. Something the skin walker is very capable of... However seduction of the victim, making her fall in love before the reveal that it is actually a horrible monster? That is down right sadistic, something the skinwalker excels at....
Seduction comes in several sorts... there's the "fling" sort of thing, the one-night-stand, the lost weekend, the week-on-vacation-and-never-seen-again, etc. That isn't really "in love," and the "big reveal" might be horrifying, disgusting, etc... Inducing someone to fall deeply in love? I agree that the sadism is far greater; but I doubt that a Naagloshi would care enough about any mortal, be patient enough, to invest all that time... they despise humans too much to invest that much into any of them!
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Seduction comes in several sorts... there's the "fling" sort of thing, the one-night-stand, the lost weekend, the week-on-vacation-and-never-seen-again, etc. That isn't really "in love," and the "big reveal" might be horrifying, disgusting, etc... Inducing someone to fall deeply in love? I agree that the sadism is far greater; but I doubt that a Naagloshi would care enough about any mortal, be patient enough, to invest all that time... they despise humans too much to invest that much into any of them!
Depends on what it's motives were.... What it did to Thomas for example, it didn't just beat him up to hold him to trap Harry... No, it sadistically did it over and over again to the point of death, so Thomas would have to feed until death over and over again, young innocent girls.. I call that sadistic... So yeah, depending on what it's orders were it is very capable of appearing as a handsome young man or worse yet murdering the husband or lover of the woman, taking his shape, get her pregnant, stick around as the loving lover or husband until she gives birth, then reveal the horror that it is...
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Depends on what it's motives were.... What it did to Thomas for example, it didn't just beat him up to hold him to trap Harry... No, it sadistically did it over and over again to the point of death, so Thomas would have to feed until death over and over again, young innocent girls.. I call that sadistic... So yeah, depending on what it's orders were it is very capable of appearing as a handsome young man or worse yet murdering the husband or lover of the woman, taking his shape, get her pregnant, stick around as the loving lover or human until she gives birth, then reveal the horror that it is...
Very true. Even if the woman wasn't a nun, the woman could be a very religious person and holder in strong beliefs. Though, to go darker, the skinwalker might not even have killed the man, yet. The man's torture, if he loved his wife, would be to be forced to watch from some portal or crystal his wife having dinner with the skinwalker, and then the sex and then the rape. If the family was ignorant to the supernatural, the skinwalker might not even reveal his ruse to the wife, leaving her to think her husband did this to her.
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Very true. Even if the woman wasn't a nun, the woman could be a very religious person and holder in strong beliefs. Though, to go darker, the skinwalker might not even have killed the man, yet. The man's torture, if he loved his wife, would be to be forced to watch from some portal or crystal his wife having dinner with the skinwalker, and then the sex and then the rape. If the family was ignorant to the supernatural, the skinwalker might not even reveal his ruse to the wife, leaving her to think her husband did this to her.
Yeah, it doesn't take a lot of imagination from what we know of the skinwalker to think it not capable of that. It also goes a long way to explain Goodman Grey's bitter attitude about a lot of things... What comes to mind is he was a big reason why the mission to the vault ended in success yet, because of who his father was he cannot cross the threshold into Michael's yard.. Another thought just hit me, it could be the reason why his mother named him, "Goodman." It's sending a message that genetics aside he is still basically a good person willing to fight the good fight.
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Depends on what it's motives were....
depending on what it's orders were ...
If it were under orders/compulsion, then sure; it could have done whatever it needed to. Then I move over to wondering who/what gave the orders, and why, and whether THAT is going to become part of the ongoing DF plotline(s)?
But if it weren't compelled... I return to thinking that any extended seduction would have been more time and effort than it would have found worth expending for ANY mortal. I think a "simple" seduction, lost-weekend style, or overt rape, would be all the time & effort a naagloshi would be willing to expend on any mortal.
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... because of who his father was he cannot cross the threshold into Michael's yard...
I had understood that to be that Goodman had been previously bad, that he was reforming, but that he didn't think he would be accepted within the property by the guardians.
Not that there was a "threshold" to the yard, that he "couldn't" cross, just the property-line of the area the angels would defend, and he WOULD not choose to provoke them.
I think he is trying to earn his way into Heaven, but doesn't think he's close enough yet to risk crossing that line.
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If it were under orders/compulsion, then sure; it could have done whatever it needed to. Then I move over to wondering who/what gave the orders, and why, and whether THAT is going to become part of the ongoing DF plotline(s)?
But if it weren't compelled... I return to thinking that any extended seduction would have been more time and effort than it would have found worth expending for ANY mortal. I think a "simple" seduction, lost-weekend style, or overt rape, would be all the time & effort a naagloshi would be willing to expend on any mortal.
Except Mr Grey seemed to know his father, or at least what it was.. I think you are underestimating the amount of sadistic pleasure gained by the naagloshi... It does have it's sadistic pleasures, that is why it spent so much time on poor Thomas... The time and effort are worth it...
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First, rape is not just an act of violence. It is a violation of free will.
Secondly, from what Jim has shown us, the skinwalker is not the type to commit to a long term plot. I don't think it would pretend to be a loving, caring mate for nine months just for one pay-off at the end. It seems more likely to commit one act that would continue to torture the woman, making her fear what was growing inside her.
After giving birth she could do many different things (kill the baby, abandon it, etc...), but while still pregnant her options would be fewer.
Unless the creature's plan was to create an offspring.
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First, rape is not just an act of violence. It is a violation of free will.
Secondly, from what Jim has shown us, the skinwalker is not the type to commit to a long term plot. I don't think it would pretend to be a loving, caring mate for nine months just for one pay-off at the end. It seems more likely to commit one act that would continue to torture the woman, making her fear what was growing inside her.
After giving birth she could do many different things (kill the baby, abandon it, etc...), but while still pregnant her options would be fewer.
Unless the creature's plan was to create an offspring.
That could indeed have been it's plan... Agreed that rape is a violation of free will, however posing as a lover or husband is also a form of rape.. As to long term plots, getting back at Morgan for killing one of them was a long term, plot.
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... getting back at Morgan for killing one of them was a long term, plot.
waitWHAT?
Did I forget or overlook something? Where did we see a long-term Naagloshi plot to get revenge upon Morgan?
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... Secondly, from what Jim has shown us, the skinwalker is not the type to commit to a long term plot. I don't think it would pretend to be a loving, caring mate for nine months just for one pay-off at the end...
This is my feeling too.
But as was pointed out to me, they ARE capable of the deception, and a powerful-enough entity could MAKE them do it.
And they would undoubtedly do a very good job at it, and engineer the matter for maximum (eventual) torment to their victim.
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waitWHAT?
Did I forget or overlook something? Where did we see a long-term Naagloshi plot to get revenge upon Morgan?
Because Morgan is one of the very few that was able to kill one of them... That is in Turn Coat..
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Because Morgan is one of the very few that was able to kill one of them... That is in Turn Coat..
Yeah, but I don't remember anything about a long term plot to kill him for it.
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Yeah, but I don't remember anything about a long term plot to kill him for it.
Perhaps not plot, but motive.... Revenge doesn't need a plot.. Apparently the skinwalker was ordered by ]to go after Morgan.. The reason it captures Thomas is to trade him for Morgan..
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Apparently the skinwalker was ordered by ]to go after Morgan.. The reason it captures Thomas is to trade him for Morgan..
Yeah, but that wasn't a revenge thing. That was because the Black Council could cause lots of problems if Morgan vanished, so they were trying to take him out.
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Yeah, but that wasn't a revenge thing. That was because the Black Council could cause lots of problems if Morgan vanished, so they were trying to take him out.
I still believe it was a part of what motivated the skinwalker, as Listens-to-Wind said, it draws power from spreading it's reputation.. Morgan managed to take out one of it's own.
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I still believe it was a part of what motivated the skinwalker, as Listens-to-Wind said, it draws power from spreading it's reputation.. Morgan managed to take out one of it's own.
You can believe anything you want, but that's not what the book says. The book says that the Skinwalker was working for the Black Council.
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I still believe it was a part of what motivated the skinwalker, as Listens-to-Wind said, it draws power from spreading it's reputation.. Morgan managed to take out one of it's own.
I guess there may have been a bit of extra motivation there... ?
But that's a long way from anything like a long-term plot or plan to take revenge.
It was... What... 30-40 YEARS after Morgan lured the Naagloshi to it's doom, until Morgan died... And that just doesn't build up a fearsome rep. I can't believe that they couldn't have tracked him down if they wanted to. Morgan was in the field a LOT, they'd have found him if they wanted to.
They just don't care enough. Humans don't MATTER enough to them; no human does. Not even one who killed another Naagloshi.
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They just don't care enough. Humans don't MATTER enough to them; no human does. Not even one who killed another Naagloshi.
They do when it has a goal, it says outright it will kill every last one of Harry's friends, of those associated with Morgan unless he is turned over to it.. A thing that can focus like that does care, it lives off of fear.. Not caring would make it indifferent..
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You can believe anything you want, but that's not what the book says. The book says that the Skinwalker was working for the Black Council.
Isn't that just a theory of Murphy's that is highly compelling instead of an express statement of fact? Note: Murphy doesn't theorize that it's the "Black Council," but whoever killed LaFortier.
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They do when it has a goal, it says outright it will kill every last one of Harry's friends, of those associated with Morgan unless he is turned over to it.. A thing that can focus like that does care, it lives off of fear.. Not caring would make it indifferent..
Hmmm.
I still think that they could have found Morgan much sooner if they had wanted to; I can only conclude that they didn't care enough to do so.
That said, I think you are right, that they DID have an extra edge of hate and animosity for Morgan, a grudge they had nursed down the decades. I found as much in some WoJ's I was looking at last night.
I guess I just have to put it down to the inhuman perspective of the Naagloshi, that they might be nursing a grudge for decades, have it really easy (for them) to go out and get their revenge, and still not DO it... :o
But yeah -- WoJ says you're right, Morgan was extra-specially on their ShitList.
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I still think that they could have found Morgan much sooner if they had wanted to; I can only conclude that they didn't care enough to do so.
But yeah -- WoJ says you're right, Morgan was extra-specially on their ShitList.
Pretty much, but what is the old saying? "Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.." Which means essentially waiting for the right moment for maximum effect... So instead of doing it right away, it would wait until in it's sadistic way it would inflict the most pain...
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"Best served cold" is how I've always heard it.
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"Best served cold" is how I've always heard it.
That is what I meant to say.... :-[ It's been a difficult last few days and it was early when I wrote it, with only a couple of swallows of coffee...
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I only said anything because you asked. It's like the theme song from friends. "When it hasn't been your day, your week, your month or even your year."
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I only said anything because you asked. It's like the theme song from friends. "When it hasn't been your day, your week, your month or even your year."
Not my week at all, I had to put one of my dogs down.. :'(
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Not my week at all, I had to put one of my dogs down.. :'(
Oh dear. I'm sorry for your loss. Consider youself hugged.
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That's a tough one.
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Thank you..
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My condolences. I lost one of my own a few years ago. It still hurts.
As to the skinwalker: whether it was sicced on Morgan or sniffed him on it's own is irrelevant to my point. Even whether it was sentimental towards it's own kind (debatable) or was acting purely as a mercenary.
The skinwalker was on Morgan's trail for a few hours when he plopped on Harry's doorstep. Not for nine months. A skinwalker would not commit a year or so to one scheme for just one payoff. Not unless it was one huge, cosmic level payoff.
A single, horrifying night that pays off multiple ways by itself? That seems more like it's style.
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Not my week at all, I had to put one of my dogs down.. :'(
I'm so very, very sorry. It always hurts, but it's so worth it, for the time we have with them.
I'm looking at the likelihood myself... for TWO dogs, actually. :-(
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I'm so very, very sorry. It always hurts, but it's so worth it, for the time we have with them.
I'm looking at the likelihood myself... for TWO dogs, actually. :-(
I'm so sorry.... There are a number of factors that made this decision very,very hard... Not that it is ever easy.