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The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: nadia.skylark on May 16, 2019, 08:36:48 PM
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I was looking at endurance-based stunts vs powers, and it's just ridiculous. By spending 2 refresh on Inhuman Toughness, you get armor:1 against anything physical, plus two additional stress boxes--which probably means you can absorb an extra 9-11 shifts of damage.
But if you spend that same 2 refresh on stunts to get similar abilities, you'd want stunts like Tough Stuff, which gives you armor:1 against some things but not others, and No Pain No Gain, which gets you an extra mild physical consequence--which means you can absorb an extra 2 shifts of damage, plus you can have the consequence compelled against you and you have to wait a scene for it to clear.
This seems like a huge disparity.
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I think it's the supernatural-vs-mortal thing.
Stunts don't hit you in the Mortality, IIRC, unless they're stunts based off of a supernatural Power.
Now, it's a separate question whether the Mortal refresh-bonus is adequate compensation. One thing I have advocated for is a Mortal Refresh-Bonus that scales higher/faster with the power-level of the game, to help Mortal PC's keep up.
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Because they decided to write the game that way. I realize that's not helpful, but it's foundational enough that it can't really be explained in terms of other rules bits.
I'm not sure exactly why they chose to write that way, but I can speculate. Stunts were a well-established part of the rules system before DFRPG even existed, and they do a good job for representing human abilities. But they're not really adequate for representing the strength of a giant or the world-changing power of a wizard. The approach they chose let them keep stunts, while also representing powers well. And it helped shape the incentives of character creation in such a way that supernaturals would often / usually spend down to 1 Refresh while mortals would have a good supply of FP.
It's also worth mentioning that Tough Stuff and No Pain No Gain aren't exactly the best stunts around. Even in an all-mortals game they're not that appealing. As I said back when I wrote that optimization guide (https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,45405.msg2164551.html#msg2164551), stunts are at their best when they improve a speciality, add a capability, or cover a weakness. And often they can improve you in areas that Powers can't really touch.
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I think it's the supernatural-vs-mortal thing.
Stunts don't hit you in the Mortality, IIRC, unless they're stunts based off of a supernatural Power.
I get that for why stunts are slightly less powerful. The problem is that some stunts are ridiculously less powerful.
It's also worth mentioning that Tough Stuff and No Pain No Gain aren't exactly the best stunts around. Even in an all-mortals game they're not that appealing.
Ah. Do you think it would be a problem if I re-tooled No Pain No Gain to give you an extra mild, moderate, and severe consequence? You'd be able to absorb slightly more stress than with Inhuman Toughness, but at the cost of taking a bunch of consequences, so it seems like it would still be slightly less powerful than the equivalent refresh in powers. I'm not sure, though. What do you think?
As I said back when I wrote that optimization guide, stunts are at their best when they improve a speciality, add a capability, or cover a weakness. And often they can improve you in areas that Powers can't really touch.
I'll read that.
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Ah. Do you think it would be a problem if I re-tooled No Pain No Gain to give you an extra mild, moderate, and severe consequence? You'd be able to absorb slightly more stress than with Inhuman Toughness, but at the cost of taking a bunch of consequences, so it seems like it would still be slightly less powerful than the equivalent refresh in powers. I'm not sure, though. What do you think?
I think that would be significantly too strong. It takes 2-3 extra stress to one-shot someone with Inhuman Toughness, while that pile of consequences can absorb 12 stress.
I don't really see it as a problem that No Pain No Gain is unexciting, but if you want to strengthen it you could have the bonus consequence not come with a tag. Allowing a bonus stress box stunt probably wouldn't break anything either.
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I think that would be significantly too strong. It takes 2-3 extra stress to one-shot someone with Inhuman Toughness, while that pile of consequences can absorb 12 stress.
Right. I hate the way stress tracks work. I always manage to forget some part of it.
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How much refresh do you think it should cost to give someone an additional mild, moderate, and severe physical consequence?
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2, maybe?
But I'm not confident there's any cost that'll work well.
It's a bit awkward because the value of a severe consequence is so dependent on what level of Recovery you have. If you've got Supernatural Recovery, you can use your consequences frequently; if you have no Recovery, you can use them rarely.
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2, maybe?
Thanks!
But I'm not confident there's any cost that'll work well.
It's a bit awkward because the value of a severe consequence is so dependent on what level of Recovery you have. If you've got Supernatural Recovery, you can use your consequences frequently; if you have no Recovery, you can use them rarely.
If my character had recovery powers, I'd just give them toughness instead of this. The point of this power is for a character who's specifically mortal (well, a wizard) and has no reason to have toughness/recovery powers, but manages to stay in fights much longer than she should because she can take a bunch of damage and still keep fighting.
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How much refresh do you think it should cost to give someone an additional mild, moderate, and severe physical consequence?
I have to disagree with Sanctaphrax here. Like he said, that's an additional 12 stress they can take; that brings the total stress a character can take in a single go up to 32 just on consequences alone (34 if they have a 5 in Endurance, 36 if they tack on No Pain, No Gain); that's up to 36 (38,40) with stress boxes, 41 (43,45) with an apex dodging skill, and 45 (47,49!) with a high roll.
So for two refresh, you've got someone -- with no other magical defenses -- who can fairly easily survive things like the Heart Exploding spell, which is statted out to explicitly be an inescapable one-hit-kill.
"Getting hit a lot and getting back up" is more for things like John McLane, who's taking bullets and punches a bunch (2-3 shift hits), which he recovers from once he gets away and can catch his breath.
It's not for John McLane going down in a fiery helicopter crash and bursting into flames and getting up and walking away.
Effectively adding 12 stress boxes, far more than the protection you get from a 6-refresh power like Mythic Toughness? And without a catch? No way I'd allow that for a measly 2 refresh, if I allowed that at all.
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I have to disagree with Sanctaphrax here. Like he said, that's an additional 12 stress they can take; that brings the total stress a character can take in a single go up to 32 just on consequences alone (34 if they have a 5 in Endurance, 36 if they tack on No Pain, No Gain); that's up to 36 (38,40) with stress boxes, 41 (43,45) with an apex dodging skill, and 45 (47,49!) with a high roll.
So for two refresh, you've got someone -- with no other magical defenses -- who can fairly easily survive things like the Heart Exploding spell, which is statted out to explicitly be an inescapable one-hit-kill.
"Getting hit a lot and getting back up" is more for things like John McLane, who's taking bullets and punches a bunch (2-3 shift hits), which he recovers from once he gets away and can catch his breath.
It's not for John McLane going down in a fiery helicopter crash and bursting into flames and getting up and walking away.
Effectively adding 12 stress boxes, far more than the protection you get from a 6-refresh power like Mythic Toughness? And without a catch? No way I'd allow that for a measly 2 refresh, if I allowed that at all.
Could you provide alternate suggestions, then?
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Could you provide alternate suggestions, then?
High Endurance and No Pain, No Gain get you two additional Mild Consequences for three total; if she's a wizard, give her an enchanted item with an armor rating.
There's also the "powers as spells" idea, or you could justify upgrading the wizard longevity power to Inhuman Recovery with a suitable catch/limitation (like maybe she needs post-battle meditation/spellwork to kick it into gear).
Potions that give her temporary Inhuman Toughness (maybe with a crash afterward, if the extra stress boxes are filled when it wears off).
Honest question: Have you played DFRPG yet, or often? Or is this mainly fanfic research?
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Honest question: Have you played DFRPG yet, or often? Or is this mainly fanfic research?
No, I've never played. I haven't been able to find anyone near me to play with, and I'm not sure about playing online, because when I can post is pretty erratic. But I think the system's interesting, and also I really need something to remind me that, no, I can't have that phoenix give my character access to its magic right now, she just got two other power-ups.
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No, I've never played. I haven't been able to find anyone near me to play with, and I'm not sure about playing online, because when I can post is pretty erratic. But I think the system's interesting, and also I really need something to remind me that, no, I can't have that phoenix give my character access to its magic right now, she just got two other power-ups.
OK, I think that clarifies things a bit.
It may not be immediately clear from the rules or from checking this forum, but in practice, Dresden RPG is a system of small numbers -- it's a system where a +2 can be a huge difference, and Armor:1 reducing every hit can really add up.
I've been running the game off and on for the last 9 years, and the kind of huge attacks and long, drawn-out battles that would make the kinds of stunts and powers you're looking for necessary almost never happen. Most fights are exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out.
So a typical fight for Harry that has him getting knocked around? Might fill his stress boxes, but probably only the bloody nose and black eye are the actual consequences. Then he takes a breather and he's more or less fresh for the next round.
So an extra mild consequence might not seem like much, but it's a much bigger advantage than you might think just by looking at the rules in a vacuum. Having a sharply-limited number of consequences, and having those consequences stick around, raises the stakes of any combat and forces the players and characters to consider things besides just wailing away until someone drops.
It's also a system where the low numbers mean everyone has at least a chance. You don't get to be "untouchable" until you're a Plot Device level character like Mab or The Merlin.
Can someone with a 1 in Weapons beat someone with a 5 in the same skill? It's extremely unlikely, but, just like in real life, that guy with the 1 can get in a lucky roll (say he gets four +'s, and his opponent gets two -'s -- that makes it a 5 shift hit in his favor, just enough to win a fight with a lucky shot) or nudge it with fate points to give himself a fighting chance. That's what keeps things interesting, in my opinion.
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OK, I think that clarifies things a bit.
It may not be immediately clear from the rules or from checking this forum, but in practice, Dresden RPG is a system of small numbers -- it's a system where a +2 can be a huge difference, and Armor:1 reducing every hit can really add up.
I've been running the game off and on for the last 9 years, and the kind of huge attacks and long, drawn-out battles that would make the kinds of stunts and powers you're looking for almost never happen. Most fights are exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out.
So a typical fight for Harry that has him getting knocked around? Might fill his stress boxes, but probably only the bloody nose and black eye are the actual consequences. Then he takes a breather and he's more or less fresh for the next round.
So an extra mild consequence might not seem like much, but it's a much bigger advantage than you might think just by looking at the rules in a vacuum. Having a sharply-limited number of consequences, and having those consequences stick around, raises the stakes of any combat and forces the players and characters to consider things besides just wailing away until someone drops.
It's also a system where the low numbers mean everyone has at least a chance. You don't get to be "untouchable" until you're a Plot Device level character like Mab or The Merlin.
Can someone with a 1 in Weapons beat someone with a 5 in the same skill? It's extremely unlikely, but, just like in real life, that guy with the 1 can get in a lucky roll (say he gets four +'s, and his opponent gets two -'s -- that makes it a 5 shift hit in his favor, just enough to win a fight with a lucky shot) or nudge it with fate points to give himself a fighting chance. That's what keeps things interesting, in my opinion.
Thanks!
So, if you're trying to stat out a character that starts out as an apprentice wizard and progresses to Kemmler-level badass, how would you go about that without inflating the numbers too much?
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Thanks!
So, if you're trying to stat out a character that starts out as an apprentice wizard and progresses to Kemmler-level badass, how would you go about that without inflating the numbers too much?
Slowly. Pick a specialty for them, and focus their upgrades on that -- with the acceptance that some things are just going to end up being weaknesses for the character. Which is not a bad thing! Weaknesses make for great drama and chances for character growth, either by overcoming those weaknesses (which usually means getting them up to adequate levels, not making them the best at it) or accepting them and compensating in creative ways.
So if your Swording Wizard has to make Investigation her dump stat so that her combat stats are adequate-to-high? Perfect opportunity to expand her cast with, say, a computer hacker character that can look into the things the wizard can't, or a rival private eye. Or the wizard is forced to talk to demons and pixies and such.
No protagonist is an island -- and you can have a lot of fun teaching them that the hard way.
I mean, look at Harry Dresden. When we first meet him, he's basically got two big tricks over his opponents -- a hefty magic punch and he's a keen investigator. As the books go by, he's confronted with his deficiencies (usually in the forms of getting his arse kicked or finding a dead body he could've saved), and then he works to remedy that.
By the time of, say, the short story Heorot, Harry can win a fist fight with a couple thugs that Murphy probably would've wiped the floor with. Which is to say Harry accounted for his weakness and sought to bolster it, but he didn't get to a level beyond what others can do.
All that said, if they're a protagonist, I wouldn't let them get near Kemmler's level, because Kemmler is more of a plot device than a character, someone who can effectively "cheat" the normal skill distribution.
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I have to disagree with Sanctaphrax here. Like he said, that's an additional 12 stress they can take; that brings the total stress a character can take in a single go up to 32 just on consequences alone (34 if they have a 5 in Endurance, 36 if they tack on No Pain, No Gain); that's up to 36 (38,40) with stress boxes, 41 (43,45) with an apex dodging skill, and 45 (47,49!) with a high roll.
So for two refresh, you've got someone -- with no other magical defenses -- who can fairly easily survive things like the Heart Exploding spell, which is statted out to explicitly be an inescapable one-hit-kill.
Sure, it's great for surviving one-hit-kills. But how many of those do you actually face?
Usually when a character goes down it's because they've been hit again and again.
Four times out of five, I'd take Inhuman Toughness over this thing. As you said yourself, most fights are "exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out". For which this Power would be mostly useless.
Effectively adding 12 stress boxes, far more than the protection you get from a 6-refresh power like Mythic Toughness? And without a catch? No way I'd allow that for a measly 2 refresh, if I allowed that at all.
It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.
Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.
Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.
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It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.
And doesn't Inhuman Toughness let you absorb 9-11 stress (depending on your Endurance) that goes away at the end of the scene, plus giving you armor:1 against physical damage?
Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.
And if recovery is a problem, I don't see any reason not to say "you can't take this with recovery powers," or "this costs extra with recovery powers."
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And doesn't Inhuman Toughness let you absorb 9-11 stress (depending on your Endurance) that goes away at the end of the scene, plus giving you armor:1 against physical damage?
Yes, but other times it just absorbs 2 stress. Either because 1-stress hits are filling your track box by box, or because you're dealing with a single overwhelming hit.
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Sure, it's great for surviving one-hit-kills. But how many of those do you actually face?
Not many, true. I was just pointing out how much tougher a character is with this.
Looked at another way, that's another 12 shifts a character can throw into a Death Curse (or when used as a human sacrifice), which is also a pretty big deal.
Usually when a character goes down it's because they've been hit again and again.
True -- and this stunt lets a character be hit three more times, and two of those times can be fairly substantial hits.
Four times out of five, I'd take Inhuman Toughness over this thing. As you said yourself, most fights are "exchanges of 3- and 4-shift hits back and forth, with maybe only one or two consequences taken before one side or the other decides that taking a Moderate or Severe isn't worth it, and either concedes or is taken out". For which this Power would be mostly useless.
Aside from it offering three more hits a character can take, agreed.
It's not even close to adding twelve stress boxes. It's adding twelve stress. And not per scene, or even per session. Plus it's taggable, which is a major drawback.
Two of the stress is per scene, but you're right, I misspoke.
Though as I said, things get squirrelly when you mix it with Recovery.
And prohibiting it is also a little squirrelly -- are there any powers that explicitly prohibit mixing with other powers (aside from, for instance, Supernatural Recovery being an upgrade to Inhuman recovery)?
Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.
It also comes with a higher cost and a required weakness, neither of which is present in this proposed power.
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Looked at another way, that's another 12 shifts a character can throw into a Death Curse (or when used as a human sacrifice), which is also a pretty big deal.
I really don't think you should determine whether a power is viable based on what could happen with the last action a character can ever take before dying. I mean, how many games is that actually going to be relevant in? And when it is relevant, it's still only going to happen once.
And prohibiting it is also a little squirrelly -- are there any powers that explicitly prohibit mixing with other powers (aside from, for instance, Supernatural Recovery being an upgrade to Inhuman recovery)?
I don't know if there are any in the Dresden RPG, but, to borrow a term from TV Tropes, it's an Obvious Rules Patch. There's one interaction that's the problem, so you fix it by saying "you can't do that."
Mythic Toughness can absorb infinite stress if it comes in three-stress chunks. And against the kind of damage you're actually likely to encounter, it's at least three times as good as another set of consequences. Filling a mythically tough stress track takes an unbelievable amount of punishment.
It also comes with a higher cost and a required weakness, neither of which is present in this proposed power.
If Mythic Toughness is three times as good as another set of consequences, then this power (the consequences) is priced correctly, because Mythic Toughness is three times the cost. And this power does have a weakness--you have a bunch of taggable consequences.
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I really don't think you should determine whether a power is viable based on what could happen with the last action a character can ever take before dying. I mean, how many games is that actually going to be relevant in? And when it is relevant, it's still only going to happen once.
I'm not saying that's what makes it viable or not, just that it's another consequence of the proposed power.
You can also give yourself consequences to power regular thaumaturgy, so a wizard with this power has all that extra juice they can put into non-death curse spells, too.
All I'm saying here is there are more side-effects and consequences to this proposed power than just making a character tougher to bring down.
I don't know if there are any in the Dresden RPG, but, to borrow a term from TV Tropes, it's an Obvious Rules Patch. There's one interaction that's the problem, so you fix it by saying "you can't do that."
I would posit, alternately, that if the power you're proposing requires its own unique roll to avoid breaking the game, that's a point against it.
If Mythic Toughness is three times as good as another set of consequences, then this power (the consequences) is priced correctly, because Mythic Toughness is three times the cost. And this power does have a weakness--you have a bunch of taggable consequences.
A tag is once. If it keeps coming up, you're getting fate points on it each time. And if and when you're finally taken down from running out of consequences, you're eligible for twice as many fate points in return for that loss than another character would be.
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I'm not saying that's what makes it viable or not, just that it's another consequence of the proposed power.
All I'm saying here is there are more side-effects and consequences to this proposed power than just making a character tougher to bring down.
You can also give yourself consequences to power regular thaumaturgy, so a wizard with this power has all that extra juice they can put into non-death curse spells, too.
I can't be sure of this, given that I haven't actually played the game, but wouldn't the same problem exist for wizards with recovery powers? They could take a bunch of consequences, and by the time a fight broke out they'd be healed. With this power, you might get more consequences, but you're stuck with them for a while.
I would posit, alternately, that if the power you're proposing requires its own unique roll to avoid breaking the game, that's a point against it.
I don't even know if this even is a problem. Or if it's only a problem with Supernatural or higher Recovery. Or if it's only a problem with Mythic Recovery. Or if it's only a problem in some games but not others. Like I said, I've never played this game at all, much less tested this power.
For that matter, I'm not sure how someone with recovery powers would justify taking this power, since it's meant to represent someone who is so used to being hurt that they've developed the ability to keep functioning with more damage than most people can handle, and someone with recovery powers wouldn't have learned to function with a huge amount of damage--they would have healed it. You are supposed to have narrative justification for the powers you take, after all. (Yes, I know I didn't say this earlier; it only now occurred to me that it probably wasn't obvious.)
All I'm saying is, if it's a problem in your game, then don't let characters do that. To me, it seems like the same thing as some people saying that you can't use the Spirit element for mental attacks, but some people don't have a problem with it.
A tag is once. If it keeps coming up, you're getting fate points on it each time. And if and when you're finally taken down from running out of consequences, you're eligible for twice as many fate points in return for that loss than another character would be.
Hadn't thought about that.
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I can't be sure of this, given that I haven't actually played the game, but wouldn't the same problem exist for wizards with recovery powers? They could take a bunch of consequences, and by the time a fight broke out they'd be healed. With this power, you might get more consequences, but you're stuck with them for a while.
Over the long term, maybe, but this one would get them an additional 12 possible shifts on a spell immediately; or let them use all three consequences -- and, because they inflicted them themselves, if they got into a fight right afterward, their enemies couldn't tag them and they'd be effectively as fresh as someone with the normal amount of consequences.
I don't even know if this even is a problem. Or if it's only a problem with Supernatural or higher Recovery. Or if it's only a problem with Mythic Recovery. Or if it's only a problem in some games but not others. Like I said, I've never played this game at all, much less tested this power.
The lowest recovery power moves each one's recovery time down a step; so Milds recover more or less instantly like stress; moderates recover after the next scene; Severes after the next session (or at least, that's how the book does it; I tend to do it by in-game time, so by default, a mild is something you can walk off, moderate is something that takes a few days to a week, and severe is something with weeks to months of recovery time).
So even with the lowest level recovery power, someone with this could take all of their consequences save Extreme, and be more or less back in perfect health within a couple weeks.
For that matter, I'm not sure how someone with recovery powers would justify taking this power, since it's meant to represent someone who is so used to being hurt that they've developed the ability to keep functioning with more damage than most people can handle, and someone with recovery powers wouldn't have learned to function with a huge amount of damage--they would have healed it. You are supposed to have narrative justification for the powers you take, after all. (Yes, I know I didn't say this earlier; it only now occurred to me that it probably wasn't obvious.)
It could go the other way around. Someone with this power becomes, say, a Knight of Winter, and gets Inhuman Recovery in the deal.
All I'm saying is, if it's a problem in your game, then don't let characters do that. To me, it seems like the same thing as some people saying that you can't use the Spirit element for mental attacks, but some people don't have a problem with it.
I feel like the people who don't have a problem using spirit element for mental attacks are mostly the people who want to rely on spirit element for mental attacks to get around normal defenses.
It was one of the first things we learned to avoid when my group started doing Dresden. We had a couple quick "fight night" style sessions just to get used to the combat system, and at one point the GM has his wizard opponent just step out of the zone and hit the zone with a Weapon:9 mental attack. It was basically a zone-wide instakill -- one that we might have been able to dodge or tank if it had been a physical attack, but which we had no chance of doing to a mental one.
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Over the long term, maybe, but this one would get them an additional 12 possible shifts on a spell immediately; or let them use all three consequences -- and, because they inflicted them themselves, if they got into a fight right afterward, their enemies couldn't tag them and they'd be effectively as fresh as someone with the normal amount of consequences.
This feels wrong narratively--if you're going into a fight already hurt, it ought to make a difference--but I'm not sure how it should be handled mechanically.
The lowest recovery power moves each one's recovery time down a step; so Milds recover more or less instantly like stress; moderates recover after the next scene; Severes after the next session (or at least, that's how the book does it; I tend to do it by in-game time, so by default, a mild is something you can walk off, moderate is something that takes a few days to a week, and severe is something with weeks to months of recovery time).
So even with the lowest level recovery power, someone with this could take all of their consequences save Extreme, and be more or less back in perfect health within a couple weeks.
Yes, but how much does that matter if you have to resolve whatever you're dealing with by tomorrow? In the books, at least, being completely healed in a couple of weeks wouldn't make a difference, because the situations in question never take longer than three days or so to deal with.
It could go the other way around. Someone with this power becomes, say, a Knight of Winter, and gets Inhuman Recovery in the deal.
Good point.
I feel like the people who don't have a problem using spirit element for mental attacks are mostly the people who want to rely on spirit element for mental attacks to get around normal defenses.
It was one of the first things we learned to avoid when my group started doing Dresden. We had a couple quick "fight night" style sessions just to get used to the combat system, and at one point the GM has his wizard opponent just step out of the zone and hit the zone with a Weapon:9 mental attack. It was basically a zone-wide instakill -- one that we might have been able to dodge or tank if it had been a physical attack, but which we had no chance of doing to a mental one.
It can't only be people who just want to get around defenses, because using spirit attacks like this is in the RAW. I feel like they wouldn't stick it into the sourcebook just because someone wanted to cheat the system like that, so it follows that some groups can use it without a problem.
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Would this stunt be less of a problem if you couldn't use more than one of its consequences on any given thing (ie, you couldn't use more than one consequence to power a spell, you couldn't use more than one extra consequence to absorb an attack, etc)? This feels clunky, but I don't want my character to be able to absorb bigger hits than any other character or cast massively overpowered spells; this stunt is supposed to be for a bunch of smaller things.
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Would this stunt be less of a problem if you couldn't use more than one of its consequences on any given thing (ie, you couldn't use more than one consequence to power a spell, you couldn't use more than one extra consequence to absorb an attack, etc)? This feels clunky, but I don't want my character to be able to absorb bigger hits than any other character or cast massively overpowered spells; this stunt is supposed to be for a bunch of smaller things.
If this is supposed to model being able to take more damage before going down because you don't feel as much pain as others, why not model it with Armor: 2 (or 1, or 3). Small hits (1 or 2 stress), you just shrug off the pain it causes (ie. you take no stress). With larger hits, you are able to partially ignore the pain, but not fully (ie. you take less stress than you would have).
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If this is supposed to model being able to take more damage before going down because you don't feel as much pain as others, why not model it with Armor: 2 (or 1, or 3). Small hits (1 or 2 stress), you just shrug off the pain it causes (ie. you take no stress). With larger hits, you are able to partially ignore the pain, but not fully (ie. you take less stress than you would have).
The idea is to model being able to better function while damaged than most people. A character with this stunt shouldn't be getting hurt any less--they should just be able to keep going longer while injured.
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The idea is to model being able to better function while damaged than most people. A character with this stunt shouldn't be getting hurt any less--they should just be able to keep going longer while injured.
From a non-mechanical point of view, keeping going longer while injured reads to me as they can take more hits before being taken out. Does this sound about right?
Mechanically, being taken out is when you have to fill in a space on your stress track and have no space to fill in. There are lots of different ways to allow a character to get hit more before being taken out.
- Have more stress boxes to fill in.
- Have more consequences to spend to reduce incoming stress
- Take less stress per hit
Both the first 2 allow one to cast bigger, stronger spells, by using the higher stress boxes and/or consequences, which you've said you don't want (and doesn't fit the fluff of ignoring pain). As for the third, the easiest way to take less stress per hit, mechanically, is Armour.
Yes, most of the time Armor (the power/ability) is used in the book as just that, armor (scales, flak jacket, etc). But there are lots of other things that can be used for something that isn't exactly what the name implies. The one that jumps to mind is Breath Weapon. I'm sure not every creature/character that has the power called "Breath Weapon" is actually breathing something on their target. Some are just attacking at range (which is mechanically what Breath Weapon is doing). Mechanically what Armor is doing is allowing you to take more hits before being taken out. Sometimes that's because each hit is doing less damage (in a non-mechanical sense) to you. But there's nothing that says it can't mean you just ignore the pain (or some of the pain) of the hit, so you won't go down as easily as someone who doesn't have it.
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Looked at another way, that's another 12 shifts a character can throw into a Death Curse (or when used as a human sacrifice), which is also a pretty big deal.
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True -- and this stunt lets a character be hit three more times, and two of those times can be fairly substantial hits.
Sure. That's not at all out of line for 2 Refresh.
And prohibiting it is also a little squirrelly -- are there any powers that explicitly prohibit mixing with other powers (aside from, for instance, Supernatural Recovery being an upgrade to Inhuman recovery)?
There are some special interactions like Sponsored Magic + Evocation. And for some reason you can't take Wizard's Constitution with Toughness. It's hardly common, though.
It's probably better to say that Recovery Powers don't affect the extra slots than to ban taking both together.
It also comes with a higher cost and a required weakness, neither of which is present in this proposed power.
It's way better and also way more expensive, as is appropriate.
The Catch is really more benefit than weakness. It's a big discount.
For that matter, I'm not sure how someone with recovery powers would justify taking this power, since it's meant to represent someone who is so used to being hurt that they've developed the ability to keep functioning with more damage than most people can handle, and someone with recovery powers wouldn't have learned to function with a huge amount of damage--they would have healed it.
On the contrary, it's often the people with Recovery powers who spend the most time in brutally injured states. They can handle it, after all.
This feels wrong narratively--if you're going into a fight already hurt, it ought to make a difference--but I'm not sure how it should be handled mechanically.
Consequence Aspects can be invoked and Compelled.
It can't only be people who just want to get around defenses, because using spirit attacks like this is in the RAW. I feel like they wouldn't stick it into the sourcebook just because someone wanted to cheat the system like that, so it follows that some groups can use it without a problem.
Every imaginable set of rules is fine for some groups. But if you allow mental spirit attacks, anyone who's good at Evocation can one-shot everything. Pretty much nothing is physically tough enough to handle a 7-shift force lance and mentally tough enough to handle a 7-shift sleep beam.
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This feels wrong narratively--if you're going into a fight already hurt, it ought to make a difference--but I'm not sure how it should be handled mechanically.
Typically, it's handled by having a sharply limited amount of consequence slots to fill up. And, as Sanctaphrax points out, aspects can also be compelled; which in turn nets you fate points.
But even if your consequences are never invoked against you, having them filled puts a really low limit on the amount of punishment you can take in a scene.
Yes, but how much does that matter if you have to resolve whatever you're dealing with by tomorrow? In the books, at least, being completely healed in a couple of weeks wouldn't make a difference, because the situations in question never take longer than three days or so to deal with.
In the books, sure; but I've run scenarios that have taken in-game weeks. Plus, the books take place weeks or months apart -- so a character with Inhuman Recovery could be reliably back to 100% by the next Scenario/Book, while a character without is still injured.
It can't only be people who just want to get around defenses, because using spirit attacks like this is in the RAW. I feel like they wouldn't stick it into the sourcebook just because someone wanted to cheat the system like that, so it follows that some groups can use it without a problem.
I wouldn't say the existence of an exploit means that it's used "without a problem." As Sanctaphrax points out, it has serious game-breaking potential.
Would this stunt be less of a problem if you couldn't use more than one of its consequences on any given thing (ie, you couldn't use more than one consequence to power a spell, you couldn't use more than one extra consequence to absorb an attack, etc)? This feels clunky, but I don't want my character to be able to absorb bigger hits than any other character or cast massively overpowered spells; this stunt is supposed to be for a bunch of smaller things.
If it's for a bunch of smaller things, armor or extra mild consequences are more appropriate. Remember that a Severe reduces a six-shift hit -- a grenade is only Weapon:4 and getting hit by a moving car is Weapon:5, so that's the type of injury it's meant to absorb. We're talking broken bones, disembowelment, and other such things that should outright incapacitate someone who isn't a determined PC and would keep a character recovering for weeks to months -- remember the bit in Small Favor where Gard is literally shoving her intestines back into place? That was a Severe consequence.
Remember: Stress and consequences are abstractions, and it goes both ways. I've often said that a stress hit or even a Taken Out does not necessarily mean the attack actually impacted you -- by the same token, the attack actually impacting you does not necessarily mean a consequence or even stress.
So you could easily have a character take Tough Stuff, narrate that they're getting bruised and beaten, but that the Armor:1 is letting them shrug off most of the attacks and keep going.
Sure. That's not at all out of line for 2 Refresh.
I disagree; Inhuman Toughness is a 2-refresh power, and if all your stress boxes are taken up, it does not let you absorb an extra 4-shift and an extra 6-shift hit and keep fighting. This power does.
If it could let them keep fighting through additional minor hits -- as nadia just said is the intention -- that would be one thing, but as is, this stunt would let a character already loaded up with the normal consequences take a grenade to the face and keep going.
There are some special interactions like Sponsored Magic + Evocation. And for some reason you can't take Wizard's Constitution with Toughness. It's hardly common, though.
Well, it says Recovery and Toughness powers replace Wizard's Constitution, which I took to mean that its effects are included in those powers anyway.
It's probably better to say that Recovery Powers don't affect the extra slots than to ban taking both together.
Seems kind of arbitrary, though, doesn't it? Why should the supernatural healing ability make the bullet wound in one's leg heal up in a week or so, while the one in their arm that came from the same gun, during the same fight, take months?
It's way better and also way more expensive, as is appropriate.
The Catch is really more benefit than weakness. It's a big discount.
Even Inhuman Toughness has a required Catch, even if that catch offers no discount at all.
On the contrary, it's often the people with Recovery powers who spend the most time in brutally injured states. They can handle it, after all.
True, look at Wolverine -- how many times is he reduced to his damn skeleton just to pop back? Various versions of him have stated that he's used to pain by now, I believe.
Every imaginable set of rules is fine for some groups. But if you allow mental spirit attacks, anyone who's good at Evocation can one-shot everything. Pretty much nothing is physically tough enough to handle a 7-shift force lance and mentally tough enough to handle a 7-shift sleep beam.
Agreed 100%. It would've taken a truck going 65 to bring down my Valkyrie character from my earlier Fight Night example in one shot (and even then, the truck would have to sneak up on her), but a single mental attack took her down easily.
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It's probably better to say that Recovery Powers don't affect the extra slots than to ban taking both together.
Good idea!
On the contrary, it's often the people with Recovery powers who spend the most time in brutally injured states. They can handle it, after all.
True, look at Wolverine -- how many times is he reduced to his damn skeleton just to pop back? Various versions of him have stated that he's used to pain by now, I believe.
Good point. Hadn't thought of that.
Consequence Aspects can be invoked and Compelled.
Thanks.
In the books, sure; but I've run scenarios that have taken in-game weeks. Plus, the books take place weeks or months apart -- so a character with Inhuman Recovery could be reliably back to 100% by the next Scenario/Book, while a character without is still injured.
Okay. But that seems like any character with Inhuman Recovery would be back to 100%, not just characters with Inhuman Recovery and this stunt.
If it's for a bunch of smaller things, armor or extra mild consequences are more appropriate. Remember that a Severe reduces a six-shift hit -- a grenade is only Weapon:4 and getting hit by a moving car is Weapon:5, so that's the type of injury it's meant to absorb. We're talking broken bones, disembowelment, and other such things that should outright incapacitate someone who isn't a determined PC and would keep a character recovering for weeks to months -- remember the bit in Small Favor where Gard is literally shoving her intestines back into place? That was a Severe consequence.
Remember: Stress and consequences are abstractions, and it goes both ways. I've often said that a stress hit or even a Taken Out does not necessarily mean the attack actually impacted you -- by the same token, the attack actually impacting you does not necessarily mean a consequence or even stress.
So you could easily have a character take Tough Stuff, narrate that they're getting bruised and beaten, but that the Armor:1 is letting them shrug off most of the attacks and keep going.
You're right, only allowing someone to use one of the consequences at a time is a bad way to represent what I'm going for. It was meant to represent someone who couldn't take bigger hits than a normal person, but could take more of them.
What about the part about only using one of these consequences per spell? Would that help limit the problem of being able to use this stunt to boost your magic?
Seems kind of arbitrary, though, doesn't it? Why should the supernatural healing ability make the bullet wound in one's leg heal up in a week or so, while the one in their arm that came from the same gun, during the same fight, take months?
Because your healing power is overworked by all your injuries, and can't effectively deal with everything. This is the same reason as why 90% of the time when I get a fever, I end up with a cold a day or two later--my immune system was busy with the fever and couldn't stop the cold as well.
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Okay. But that seems like any character with Inhuman Recovery would be back to 100%, not just characters with Inhuman Recovery and this stunt.
They would; it's one of the ways the recovery powers are so, well, powerful. A character this stunt and a recovery power would be able to absorb a lot more in a "burst" and be up on their feet quicker.
Consider how often you get into a fight in a typical game, or even in the book -- it's super rare for Harry to bounce from one fight to another without some time to catch his breath, and in games, there tends to be a fight maybe every other session, if there's a lot of fights.
So a normal character with IR, they can get into a fight, take a mild and a moderate, spend a day or two recuperating, and they're back on their feet, repeat for more or less every fight.
With this stunt, the character can double that -- take two Moderates and two Milds every fight and come back on their feet within a day or so, when any other character would need to take a Severe to take the same amount of punishment, and even with the same recovery power, would be hampered by the recovery time.
You're right, only allowing someone to use one of the consequences at a time is a bad way to represent what I'm going for. It was meant to represent someone who couldn't take bigger hits than a normal person, but could take more of them.
Yeah, as I said before, armor is better about modeling "can take a lot of smaller hits" than the larger consequences.
For instance, Tough Stuff + No Pain No Gain + a 5 in Endurance gives you a total of three mild consequences and Armor:1 for blunt attacks. That alone gives you a character who can take a lot of small attacks, shrugging off half of them, get bloodied and bruised, but still believably able to fight before taking a couple scenes to recover and being back in business.
For fiction, I find it a lot easier to believe that someone could, for instance, get a black-eye, a charlie horse and a twisted ankle (all good examples of Mild consequences) and keep going than someone who has a black eye, a dislocated shoulder and a broken leg (i.e., a mild, moderate and severe consequence) and still be able to take much damage as another person who hasn't gotten hit at all yet (i.e., still has one each of those slots yet to fill).
What about the part about only using one of these consequences per spell? Would that help limit the problem of being able to use this stunt to boost your magic?
It would limit it, yes, but it's still a substantial boost.
Because your healing power is overworked by all your injuries, and can't effectively deal with everything. This is the same reason as why 90% of the time when I get a fever, I end up with a cold a day or two later--my immune system was busy with the fever and couldn't stop the cold as well.
That's a fair point -- it would need to be a built-in aspect of the power.
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I disagree; Inhuman Toughness is a 2-refresh power, and if all your stress boxes are taken up, it does not let you absorb an extra 4-shift and an extra 6-shift hit and keep fighting. This power does.
If it could let them keep fighting through additional minor hits -- as nadia just said is the intention -- that would be one thing, but as is, this stunt would let a character already loaded up with the normal consequences take a grenade to the face and keep going.
As you said yourself, being hit mechanically doesn't always correspond to being hit storywise. If you're using this to survive grenades, the grenades are not landing clean. They're falling far enough away from you that you're merely badly injured.
Basically, this power lets you keep fighting with a sucking chest wound and a shattered leg, rather than just one or the other.
As for the Toughness comparison, having run the numbers I'd almost always choose to buy Toughness over this.
Well, it says Recovery and Toughness powers replace Wizard's Constitution, which I took to mean that its effects are included in those powers anyway.
Sensible for Recovery, but real weird for Toughness.
Seems kind of arbitrary, though, doesn't it? Why should the supernatural healing ability make the bullet wound in one's leg heal up in a week or so, while the one in their arm that came from the same gun, during the same fight, take months?
One option would be to over-describe the extra consequences, and say the arm wound is far more serious.
Another option, and probably a better one, would be to say that the consequence Aspect changes rather than disappearing. HEALED BULLET WOUND can fill a consequence slot as effectively as BULLET WOUND.
You could even say that Aspects fade Recovery-fast, but you have to wait the full time before using the slot again.
Even Inhuman Toughness has a required Catch, even if that catch offers no discount at all.
The Catch can be a genuine weakness, and it will be if you choose a +0 catch with a GM who intends to use it. But of course you don't have to do that; Supernatural Toughness with a +3 Catch is about the best thing you can do with 1 Refresh, even if you're not playing cheesy games with the Catch rebate.
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As you said yourself, being hit mechanically doesn't always correspond to being hit storywise. If you're using this to survive grenades, the grenades are not landing clean. They're falling far enough away from you that you're merely badly injured.
Basically, this power lets you keep fighting with a sucking chest wound and a shattered leg, rather than just one or the other.
As for the Toughness comparison, having run the numbers I'd almost always choose to buy Toughness over this.
I'm talking purely mechanically here. Point is, someone with the regular set of consequences, once they have all their stress boxes and regular consequences filled up, the smallest attack will finish them. Someone with this, can take three substantial hits before going down. It just doesn't feel right to me.
Sensible for Recovery, but real weird for Toughness.
I agree -- in fact, until you pointed it out and I went and checked, I thought it was just Recovery.
One option would be to over-describe the extra consequences, and say the arm wound is far more serious.
Another option, and probably a better one, would be to say that the consequence Aspect changes rather than disappearing. HEALED BULLET WOUND can fill a consequence slot as effectively as BULLET WOUND.
You could even say that Aspects fade Recovery-fast, but you have to wait the full time before using the slot again.
That last one kind of removes a lot of the point of the recovery power, I feel. And they all feel like patches more than anything; as mentioned before, I tend to be of the opinion that the more patches something needs, the less wise it is to allow it.
The Catch can be a genuine weakness, and it will be if you choose a +0 catch with a GM who intends to use it. But of course you don't have to do that; Supernatural Toughness with a +3 Catch is about the best thing you can do with 1 Refresh, even if you're not playing cheesy games with the Catch rebate.
And if it's a +3 catch, it's going to end up not applying a lot. I mean, look at Black Court Vampires -- they're an extreme example, but they can barely walk a dozen feet without running into something that counts as their Catch.
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I'm talking purely mechanically here. Point is, someone with the regular set of consequences, once they have all their stress boxes and regular consequences filled up, the smallest attack will finish them. Someone with this, can take three substantial hits before going down. It just doesn't feel right to me.
Why not?
That's the whole point of spending Refresh on durability.
That last one kind of removes a lot of the point of the recovery power, I feel. And they all feel like patches more than anything; as mentioned before, I tend to be of the opinion that the more patches something needs, the less wise it is to allow it.
It's a patch, and needing a patch isn't ideal, but it's small and you only need the one.
And if it's a +3 catch, it's going to end up not applying a lot. I mean, look at Black Court Vampires -- they're an extreme example, but they can barely walk a dozen feet without running into something that counts as their Catch.
That's a +4 Catch, and a remarkably bad one.
Most +3 Catches require real effort from an opponent who has it in for you personally. Either they need to do a bit of research to discover that you're vulnerable to something they can easily find, or they need to put some work into finding someone with the thing you're vulnerable to. And either way, they may need to attack in a way that doesn't suit their skills in order to take advantage.
It'll get pierced from time to time, but so what? It's just 1 Refresh worth of stuff.
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Why not?
That's the whole point of spending Refresh on durability.
Because there's no precedent for it. Every other stunt or ability that grants extra consequences exclusively adds Mild consequences. Dresden's treatment of injury is more realistic than other systems, and it's one of the things that keeps it grounded and interesting -- a sucking wound to the chest or having your guts torn out should be the limit on how much punishment you can take and keep fighting.
That's a +4 Catch, and a remarkably bad one.
Most +3 Catches require real effort from an opponent who has it in for you personally. Either they need to do a bit of research to discover that you're vulnerable to something they can easily find, or they need to put some work into finding someone with the thing you're vulnerable to. And either way, they may need to attack in a way that doesn't suit their skills in order to take advantage.
It'll get pierced from time to time, but so what? It's just 1 Refresh worth of stuff.
In a long enough campaign, it's going to come up more and more especially as the heroes gain notoriety and the villains start to figure out what works and what doesn't.
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Because there's no precedent for it. Every other stunt or ability that grants extra consequences exclusively adds Mild consequences.
That seems like a fully general argument against ever doing anything new.
Dresden's treatment of injury is more realistic than other systems, and it's one of the things that keeps it grounded and interesting -- a sucking wound to the chest or having your guts torn out should be the limit on how much punishment you can take and keep fighting.
This is a Power; it's allowed to be magical.
And hey, there's always Compels. I hear they solve everything. Can always Compel someone to suffer consequences for their consequences.
In a long enough campaign, it's going to come up more and more especially as the heroes gain notoriety and the villains start to figure out what works and what doesn't.
True. But it'll never stop being a fantastic deal for 1 Refresh.
Plus, the more and more often part can earn you FP, sometimes. Depends on the situation and your GM.
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That seems like a fully general argument against ever doing anything new.
No, just against new things that seem to fall way outside what we normally see.
The average 2 refresh power does things in 1s and 2s; it adds 2 stress boxes, or you get a two stress attack you couldn't do before (like Claws and Breath Weapon), or you get a new trapping for a skill (like Glamours). The ones that do more than that (like channeling) come with a usage cost.
So a 2 refresh power that adds a 4-shift effect and a 6-shift effect without a cost or a weakness seems way outside of what's normally in the range of a 2 refresh power.
This is a Power; it's allowed to be magical.
And hey, there's always Compels. I hear they solve everything. Can always Compel someone to suffer consequences for their consequences.
Even magic has its limits; those limits are often based on the refresh spent. This proposed power seems to me to go beyond the normal limits for refresh v. effect.
True. But it'll never stop being a fantastic deal for 1 Refresh.
Plus, the more and more often part can earn you FP, sometimes. Depends on the situation and your GM.
Nonetheless, it is still a concrete, exploitable weakness in the power, which this power doesn't have.