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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: nadia.skylark on May 11, 2019, 11:48:24 PM
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There have been a lot of debates and theories about who fixed Little Chicago, but I haven't seen any debate about why they did it--everyone seems to assume that the point is to save Harry.
But what if it isn't? What if, instead, they fixed it because they needed to use it? We have WoJ that Harry is first-rate when it comes to making magical artifacts, even compared to wizards with far more experience. Furthermore, Little Chicago took an enormous amount of time to put together, as well as a fair amount of resources. If someone needed to use something like it just once, as opposed to on a regular basis, it would make more sense to fix Harry's and just use that, rather than expend the time and effort to build their own.
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Use it for what? It's rather specific to Harry's turf. It was also fixed before first use.
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Use it for what? It's rather specific to Harry's turf.
It's a voodoo doll of Chicago. If someone needed to find something in Chicago, or affect all of Chicago with a spell, or spy on people in Chicago who were otherwise inaccessible, then Little Chicago would be a great tool to have. Beyond that, I'm not sure why they'd want to use it--the motivation is likely too specific to the user to generalize. I've lost track of who people think fixed it, but if you give me a list (excluding time traveling Harry, because at least half his motivation is definitely going to be not letting his younger self blow up regardless of whether he needs to use Little Chicago himself), I can try to come up with more specific motivations tailored to each person.
I agree that it's specific to Harry's turf--and it is for this exact reason that someone would just use Harry's rather than make there own. It's way too much work to create something like this for a one-time use, but correcting a minor (albeit deadly) glitch in the spellwork is a lot quicker and more simple.
The real problem with this theory is "how did whoever know about it in order to decide to use it?" but that's a problem regardless of whether they're fixing it for Harry's benefit or their own.
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The obvious answer is time traveling Harry not only fixed it, he used LC to track someone or something he came back in time to stop. Why do one job when TT Harry could do two at the same time? TT Harry just has to get back early enough to get something he can use for tracking purposes, then go to his old home, fix LC in order to use it and then order Bob to keep quiet about the visit.
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The obvious answer is time traveling Harry not only fixed it, he used LC to track someone or something he came back in time to stop. Why do one job when TT Harry could do two at the same time? TT Harry just has to get back early enough to get something he can use for tracking purposes, then go to his old home, fix LC in order to use it and then order Bob to keep quiet about the visit.
Possibly. Unfortunately this reason contradicts my pet theory about how things would have played out if it turns out to be TT!Harry (sorry for confusion over tenses), so I prefer to believe that if this theory is true, then it was someone other than TT!Harry who fixed Little Chicago. No evidence for this, of course.
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Paradoxageddon occurs. Time traveler Harry knew to fix LC because, how?
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Paradoxageddon occurs. Time traveler Harry knew to fix LC because, how?
The theory I have was actually designed to fix this problem.
This issue with TT!Harry fixing Little Chicago is that in the first iteration, there was no one to fix it and he should have died. However, what happened in my theory is that when Little Chicago blew up, Lasciel's shadow convinced Harry to take up the coin mid-explosion using some of the same arguments that subconscious!Harry used in Dead Beat, and Lasciel shielded him from the blast. Together, Harry and Lasciel managed to find and save Molly, but eventually Harry got manipulated by Lasciel into being an awful person like all of the other Denarians. Harry eventually repented, gave up Lasciel's coin, and tried to fix the damage he'd done. However, it was so extensive that he felt that no amount of fixing would be enough, so he went back in time in order to prevent himself from taking up Lasciel's coin by fixing Little Chicago and stopping it from blowing up in the first place.
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But what if it isn't? What if, instead, they fixed it because they needed to use it? We have WoJ that Harry is first-rate when it comes to making magical artifacts, even compared to wizards with far more experience. Furthermore, Little Chicago took an enormous amount of time to put together, as well as a fair amount of resources. If someone needed to use something like it just once, as opposed to on a regular basis, it would make more sense to fix Harry's and just use that, rather than expend the time and effort to build their own.
Harry and Bob initially missed the flaw, though, so whoever fixed it had to have had foreknowledge that Harry was about to blow himself up and wanted to prevent that, and / or been even better with subtle artifact creation.
Using Little Chicago could fit as a motivation for Mab to fix it, though. She had means to get into the apartment so long as she behaves as a good guest, and opportunity in the form of abundant skill to notice and repair it. The main argument against her was always motive - that if she knew of the flaw, she wouldn't just benevolently fix it. Her usual nature would be to hit Harry up to trade another favour(s) for 'information which will soon save your life'. But if she found it convenient to use Harry's gear for some reason, fixing the flaw could be rationalized as her way of paying to use LC, while also preventing her asset from accidentally depreciating himself.
I doubt it's a coincidence that someone else needing to use the spy tool happened at the same time shit was going down for a Nemesis plot. It's a WAG, but if it was Mab was using it, the timeline fits for that being how she found out that Maeve was compromised. Possibly she couldn't be away from Arctis Tor longer than absolutely necessary and found it convenient to capitalize on Harry's groundwork. Or perhaps Maeve's surveillance countermeasures were focused on Winter magic, and a mortal spell was able to get around them.
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Harry and Bob initially missed the flaw, though, so whoever fixed it had to have had foreknowledge that Harry was about to blow himself up and wanted to prevent that, and / or been even better with subtle artifact creation.
Or it could have just needed someone with fresh eyes to look at it. That's one of the reasons why I like to get someone to read over essays before I turn them in--I'm perfectly good at spelling, but if I've been working on the essay for a week and know exactly what it's supposed to say, I end up missing typos.
Using Little Chicago could fit as a motivation for Mab to fix it, though. She had means to get into the apartment so long as she behaves as a good guest, and opportunity in the form of abundant skill to notice and repair it. The main argument against her was always motive - that if she knew of the flaw, she wouldn't just benevolently fix it. Her usual nature would be to hit Harry up to trade another favour(s) for 'information which will soon save your life'. But if she found it convenient to use Harry's gear for some reason, fixing the flaw could be rationalized as her way of paying to use LC, while also preventing her asset from accidentally depreciating himself.
Definitely. If someone decided that they needed to use Little Chicago themselves, then Mab is definitely the top contender.
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Paradoxageddon occurs. Time traveler Harry knew to fix LC because, how?
Because Bob told Harry about the problem at the end of Proven Guilty. Here's the exact quote from Bob to Harry.
"Oh," he said. "I found something wrong with Little Chicago's design."
I swallowed. "Oh. Wow. Bad?"
"Extremely. We missed a transition coupling in the power flow. The stored energy was all going to the same spot."
Bob may have been following TT Harry's orders to tell himself (his earlier self) about the problem without saying who fixed LC. This way TT Harry can tell Bob where to look for the problem but not interfere with the timeline. Before going back in time TT Harry would remember the problem with LC and realize he needed to fix it; or order Bob to fix it, if he was going to use it himself. Actually, I could see TT Harry thinking he would catch whoever fixed LC before realizing he would be the one who fixed it.
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Because Bob told Harry about the problem at the end of Proven Guilty.
No, that doesn't work. Because the original Harry would have been blown up by Little Chicago, so he wouldn't be around to come back and fix it.
We can't assume a stable time loop in the Dresdenverse because Odin has said that it is possible to change the past. If the past is changeable, then the "it's going to happen because it's already happened" logic necessary for a stable time loop falls apart.
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If someone from the future fixes LC it creates a paradox. Always. According to Vadderung this causes a split in the timeline. Whoever goes back can't change their future. They can only create a new future where Harry doesn't kill himself with LC.
It's like a murder investigation. Who has means , motive and opportunity? Since Harry was keeping LC under wraps before first use, who could have known of it existence in the present? That list is small. Maybe Mab and/or the Gatekeeper. It's never explained implicitly, but Mab has some means of seeing what happens in Chicago. She reproduces a past event in Chicago, in full animation, in Small Favor. And the Gatekeeper has showed the ability to find Harry wherever he might be. He does it in Summer Knight and Turncoat. However the ability to be able to do so removes the need to use LC, since she/they seem to already have a more powerful tool that does the same thing.
However, Mab might fix LC to fulfill Lea's obligation to protect Harry, since in Proven Guilty she is restrained and as of Dead Beat Mab is filling in. This WAG depends on the exact nature of Lea's obligation. However we do know that she kept a garden in the Never Never to keep enemies from entering Harry's home past the threshold. This means that Mab had a private doorway into the sub basement. So this a possibility. That is means and motives.
Opportunity. Anyone monitoring Harry would know when he and Bob were both out of the apartment. Again this fills the bill for Mab/Gatekeeper. Bob is not in the basement for most of the events leading up to the raid on Arctis Tor. So the basement was free from surveillance. Anyone with the means to enter, could do so without interference.
Since I don't like time travel I won't discuss it other than to say that anyone in the future possessing Bob, assuming he survived, would have everything they need to fix LC if they could TT.
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It works perfectly if Harry Already Changed the Past and we're on an already-changed timeline. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouAlreadyChangedThePast
I don't know why you think Little Chicago has to blow up for Future Harry to fix it.
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It works perfectly if Harry Already Changed the Past and we're on an already-changed timeline. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouAlreadyChangedThePast
I don't know why you think Little Chicago has to blow up for Future Harry to fix it.
Accept my apologies if you aren't talking to me or if this post isn't responsive to yours.
Because the text says so. I quote the passage below. The trope you quote doesn't cover this case. Harry isn't changing someone else's future. The takeaway from the quoted exchange is that Harry would have died, which is what fuses do. For future Harry to know of that event he needs to survive it. The span of time from first use to Bob revealing the flaw is a discontinuity. Someone from the past could tell him in the future as long as their knowledge preexisted that period of time.“Oh,” he said. “I found something wrong with Little Chicago’s design.”
I swallowed. “Oh. Wow. Bad?”
“Extremely. We missed a transition coupling in the power flow. The stored energy was all going to the same spot.”
I frowned. “That’s… like a surge of electricity going through a circuit breaker, right? Or a fuse box.”
“Exactly like that,” Bob said. “Except that you were the fuse. That much energy in one spot will blow your head off your shoulders.”
“But it didn’t,” I said.
“But it didn’t,” Bob agreed.
“How is that possible?”
“It isn’t,” he said. “Someone fixed it.”
“What? Are you sure?”
“It didn’t fix itself,” Bob said. “When I looked at it a few nights ago, the flawed section was in plain sight, even if I didn’t recognize it at the time. When I looked again tonight, it was different. Someone changed it.”
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I don't know why you think Little Chicago has to blow up for Future Harry to fix it.
Little Chicago doesn't have to blow up in order for Future Harry to fix it. What does have to happen is that Future Harry needs to find out about the problem without dying first, before he can come back to fix it.
This is a problem because if, in Future Harry's timeline, the thing different than in current Harry's timeline that effected Little Chicago was that Little Chicago was not fixed, it would have killed Harry. Therefore, if Future Harry fixed Little Chicago, then he must have either been the one to cause Current Harry to need to use Little Chicago in this timeline (ex by being responsible for Molly's kidnapping or preventing Current Harry from getting other information about her location) or have used something Current Harry didn't consider an option to survive the explosion (ex taking up Lasciel's coin).
Any theories positing that Future Harry fixed Little Chicago, therefore, have to include something to address this.
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Accept my apologies if you aren't talking to me or if this post isn't responsive to yours.
Because the text says so. I quote the passage below. The trope you quote doesn't cover this case. Harry isn't changing someone else's future. The takeaway from the quoted exchange is that Harry would have died, which is what fuses do. For future Harry to know of that event he needs to survive it. The span of time from first use to Bob revealing the flaw is a discontinuity. Someone from the past could tell him in the future as long as their knowledge preexisted that period of time.
My point is that the text we are reading takes place on the altered timeline. It's a time loop. Harry goes back in time in a later book to find out that the only reason he survived Proven Guilty is because of Future Harry's interference in events, which he then does to make sure the timeline remains stable.
I'm no great fan of time travel as the Great Problem Solver, but there are plenty of examples of this kind of time travel.
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My point is that the text we are reading takes place on the altered timeline. It's a time loop. Harry goes back in time in a later book to find out that the only reason he survived Proven Guilty is because of Future Harry's interference in events, which he then does to make sure the timeline remains stable.
And what about the original timeline? The first Future!Harry had to come from somewhere, after all.
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Harry goes back in time in a later book to find out that the only reason he survived Proven Guilty is because of Future Harry's interference in events, which he then does to make sure the timeline remains stable.
Which makes him future Harry. However I'm going to forgo the headache I'll get if I think about this too much. ;)
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@nadia
This is a really good question & it is one of the things that has bothered me about PG for a while. I have theories about everything else that seem to make sense, but this one bit has remained unsolved.
@morriswalters & nadia
I completely agree that TT Harry fixing PG in the past would simply cause an alternate timeline to be formed - one where TT Harry shows up & saves the day, or one where Harry goes ahead & uses LC (blowing up & all).
My big issue with Mab being the one to fix LC (even though the reasons presented make sense) is that she was an ice sculpture in Arctis Tor during this time/ was dealing with both her daughter & Lea being Nfected. I don’t know where she would find the time to sneak into Harry’s place, figure out there is something wrong with LC & fix it without even Bob knowing.
Honestly if she didn’t hate Harry so much, the best fit would be Titania (more likely Mother Summer). Since Lilly’s little fae regularly clean Harry’s apt., they would know that he is building something complex & magical. I would not be surprised if they tell someone in Summer about everything they see in Harry’s apt. Lilly is not smart enough to fix LC, but Mother Summer (or her agent) are.
The motive here would be that Mother Summer is aware that Maeve & Lea are Nfected & that Arctis Tor has been attacked, putting Mab in a weak & defensive position. Mab needs the help of someone who is definitely against the Outsiders/ can act in the mortal world unencumbered - if the best chance of that happening is protecting the guy who saved the Fae Courts in SK, then so be it.
Additionally, Harry is also a tempering influence on Mab (the purpose of Summer) - carrying out Mab’s duties as humanely as possible. In CD she even encourages him to remain his own man, so Mother Summer would see protecting Harry as carrying on Summer’s duties in a creative manner.
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My big issue with Mab being the one to fix LC (even though the reasons presented make sense) is that she was an ice sculpture in Arctis Tor during this time/ was dealing with both her daughter & Lea being Nfected. I don’t know where she would find the time to sneak into Harry’s place, figure out there is something wrong with LC & fix it without even Bob knowing.
Well, time works differently in the Nevernever.
Honestly if she didn’t hate Harry so much, the best fit would be Titania (more likely Mother Summer). Since Lilly’s little fae regularly clean Harry’s apt., they would know that he is building something complex & magical. I would not be surprised if they tell someone in Summer about everything they see in Harry’s apt. Lilly is not smart enough to fix LC, but Mother Summer (or her agent) are.
The motive here would be that Mother Summer is aware that Maeve & Lea are Nfected & that Arctis Tor has been attacked, putting Mab in a weak & defensive position. Mab needs the help of someone who is definitely against the Outsiders/ can act in the mortal world unencumbered - if the best chance of that happening is protecting the guy who saved the Fae Courts in SK, then so be it.
Additionally, Harry is also a tempering influence on Mab (the purpose of Summer) - carrying out Mab’s duties as humanely as possible. In CD she even encourages him to remain his own man, so Mother Summer would see protecting Harry as carrying on Summer’s duties in a creative manner.
Well, maybe someone high up in the Summer Court needed to do something for which Little Chicago would be helpful, so Mother Summer "suggested" that they stop by Harry's place.
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Given that Mab and the Gatekeeper are thicker than thieves, she could have sent him, since it involved mortal magic. However I'm not selling that. My theory, when I think about it, is that somebody from an alternate timeline, just before that timeline dies, crosses over to fix LC and to create a timeline that doesn't end. And then goes home to die, or whatever. Just not Harry.
My contention is that Bob holds the keys to the kingdom, since he knows everything that need to be known about LC, when the sub basement was unoccupied and how to bypass the wards. All you have to assume in this scenario is that Bob survives the event and that an ally finds him, maybe Thomas.
However Jim always surprises me.
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@nadia
Sure, but if Mab has been in the Winter garden the entire time since the attack, which is supposed to have happen a while ago, she just wouldn’t have had the time to sneak into Chicago for those crucial few days.
Even if she were able to leave Faerie, my point was that she would be too busy dealing with the fallout from the attack as well as the knowledge that the Adversary has taken her top 2 lieutenants away. Where would she find the time to spy on Harry enough to know about LC & then diagnose a complex issue & fix it?
I also see no problem with your point about the Summer agent using LC to Summer’s gain while fixing it.
@morriswalters
That just seems a little complicated. Also what would be the motivation behind this act?
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On a tangential note - I do believe that time travel in the DV is more complex that we’re giving credit in this thread.
While Odin explains that going back in the past to alter something would create a separate timeline, we also know that the OG Merlin was able to travel to 5 different points in time to create Demonreach (although this could perhaps be explained by the theory that Demonreach was built to exist in every timeline)
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@nadia
Sure, but if Mab has been in the Winter garden the entire time since the attack, which is supposed to have happen a while ago, she just wouldn’t have had the time to sneak into Chicago for those crucial few days.
Even if she were able to leave Faerie, my point was that she would be too busy dealing with the fallout from the attack as well as the knowledge that the Adversary has taken her top 2 lieutenants away. Where would she find the time to spy on Harry enough to know about LC & then diagnose a complex issue & fix it?
Yeah, but my point is that "a while ago" in the Nevernever could mean that Mab fixed Little Chicago before the attack.
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@nadia
Sure, but if Mab has been in the Winter garden the entire time since the attack, which is supposed to have happen a while ago, she just wouldn’t have had the time to sneak into Chicago for those crucial few days.
Even if she were able to leave Faerie, my point was that she would be too busy dealing with the fallout from the attack as well as the knowledge that the Adversary has taken her top 2 lieutenants away. Where would she find the time to spy on Harry enough to know about LC & then diagnose a complex issue & fix it?
I also see no problem with your point about the Summer agent using LC to Summer’s gain while fixing it.
@morriswalters
That just seems a little complicated. Also what would be the motivation behind this act?
I have no idea, storywise it might show you the stakes if Harry dies. What happens if Outsiders breach the wall.
To answer part of the other questions, Mab shows Harry a display of Marcone being taken in Small Favor, Gard can actually sense Mab looking. I think this is the Gate at work, and that like Demonreach it might have intellectus.
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@nadia
Sure, but if Mab has been in the Winter garden the entire time since the attack, which is supposed to have happen a while ago, she just wouldn’t have had the time to sneak into Chicago for those crucial few days.
Even if she were able to leave Faerie, my point was that she would be too busy dealing with the fallout from the attack as well as the knowledge that the Adversary has taken her top 2 lieutenants away. Where would she find the time to spy on Harry enough to know about LC & then diagnose a complex issue & fix it?
Toot & Co are Wildfae. They may deal with either Summer or Winter; they try to stay unaligned... but they also spent most of the first few books trying not to get trapped in one of Harry'a circles. I think we can presume Mab can get anything she wants out of that crew!
We know that they regularly entered Harry's apartment, and even his lab, because they protected the cleaning-crew from the "dread beast Mister" and did general vermin-control; and Harry reflected how this was a GOOD THING because mice/rats eating some of his magical reagents would likely be a BAD THING.
So any Faerie Queen (or other potent fae) will be able to gain a full report of the inside of Harry's Place.
More likely... she could just step into the lab from the Nevernever! Lea had put up special defenses there... and Mab had personally taken over fulfilling Lea's obligations. So Mab had her own personal backdoor into Harry's lab.
As for diagnosing/fixing LC? She's Mab. She probably knows magic to AT LEAST the same degree as any Senior Council member, and she is as strong as the entire SC combined. If I had to guess, I'd guess it would take her a bit less than 1 minute to see the problem, and a few seconds to fix it.
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@morriswalters
Agreed - her ability to do that was strange. Not sure if it was a Gate at work, or that she had been keeping an eye on Marcone/ the znickelheads once they entered Chicago.
@g33k
While that’s possible, I feel like it’s a little far-fetched for Mab to be using Toot & his ilk as spies. Agreed that Mab could enter through the NN, but how would she do so without Bob’s knowledge?
I would like it to be Summer also because it would show that Summer isn’t completely incompetent/ stumbling through the events from SK onwards like a petulant & naive teen.
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Paradoxageddon occurs. Time traveler Harry knew to fix LC because, how?
Not seeing any Paradoxageddon.
It's like... suppose a very-old TT-Harry came back... like, VERY old, looking like a 90-year-old (so like... a 500-year-old wizard? I dunno...). Ancient TT-Harry walks up to in-the-novels Harry, and shakes his hand. Because Ancient TT-Harry looks so old, in-the-novels Harry doesn't recognize himself, though he may think he looks familiar (and if it's a bare-handed shake will CERTAINLY detect a very-strong practioner-aura!).
That's it. That's everything. No punching, no setting buildings on fire. No crossing the streams. No Paradoxageddon. Harry shook his own hand.
Ancient TT-Harry remembers that (when he was younger) this weird old scary-powerful wizard (who seemed oddly familiar) walked up out of the blue and shook his hand. He realizes it was him, and so he TT's, and does the hand-shake... to PREVENT paradox, to make the timeline contiguous.
Same-same with LC: TT-Harry recalls that Bob had spotted an error, but then that LC got mysteriously fixed, realizes that HE was the mysterious fixer, and does that thing. Everyone's memory of this is the same; nothing got altered. The time-loop is without paradox.
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It's like... suppose a very-old TT-Harry came back... like, VERY old, looking like a 90-year-old (so like... a 500-year-old wizard? I dunno...). Ancient TT-Harry walks up to in-the-novels Harry, and shakes his hand. Because Ancient TT-Harry looks so old, in-the-novels Harry doesn't recognize himself, though he may think he looks familiar (and if it's a bare-handed shake will CERTAINLY detect a very-strong practioner-aura!).
That's it. That's everything. No punching, no setting buildings on fire. No crossing the streams. No Paradoxageddon. Harry shook his own hand.
Ancient TT-Harry remembers that (when he was younger) this weird old scary-powerful wizard (who seemed oddly familiar) walked up out of the blue and shook his hand. He realizes it was him, and so he TT's, and does the hand-shake... to PREVENT paradox, to make the timeline contiguous.
Same-same with LC: TT-Harry recalls that Bob had spotted an error, but then that LC got mysteriously fixed, realizes that HE was the mysterious fixer, and does that thing. Everyone's memory of this is the same; nothing got altered. The time-loop is without paradox.
The problem is that when you can change the past, stable time loops don't work.
It's like this. There is the original timeline, iteration 1. Then someone from iteration 1 goes back in time, creating iteration 2. If the timeline cannot be changed, then iteration 1 and iteration 2 are identical, and you also end up with iterations 3, 4, 5, etc. that are also identical, as the same person from each iteration goes back in time. This is a stable time loop.
However, if the timeline can be changed, then iterations 1 and 2 cannot be presumed to be identical, so the question remains "but what happened in iteration 1?"
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@g33k
While that’s possible, I feel like it’s a little far-fetched for Mab to be using Toot & his ilk as spies. Agreed that Mab could enter through the NN, but how would she do so without Bob’s knowledge?
I would like it to be Summer also because it would show that Summer isn’t completely incompetent/ stumbling through the events from SK onwards like a petulant & naive teen.
I could definitely see it being Summer, particularly Mother Summer or one of her agents. Elaine could have been playing a really really deep game, secretly in Mother Summer's employ, for example.
But I could also see Mab, acting as Lea-proxy to protect Harry (as Lea was sworn to do). Promises must be kept. This is IMHO the stronger case... Mab having undertaken the "godmother" protective oaths, having the existing backdoor, etc. Mab wouldn't have to be "using" the little fae "as spies" in any ongoing manner... just hauling one in to answer questions.
But it could absolutely have been Summer. In fact, there's a certain nice symmetry there: Mother Winter gave Harry an Unraveling, so Mother Summer gave him a Weaving.
I think both notions are viable. I don't see any way to rule either one out.
But if Bob could spot a Winter agent, he could spot a Summer one too. My own 1st choice for LC-repair is still TT-Harry.
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The problem is that when you can change the past, stable time loops don't work.
It's like this. There is the original timeline, iteration 1. Then someone from iteration 1 goes back in time, creating iteration 2. If the timeline cannot be changed, then iteration 1 and iteration 2 are identical, and you also end up with iterations 3, 4, 5, etc. that are also identical, as the same person from each iteration goes back in time. This is a stable time loop.
However, if the timeline can be changed, then iterations 1 and 2 cannot be presumed to be identical, so the question remains "but what happened in iteration 1?"
Not accepting that argument.
The stable time-loop is ONE timeline (that includes a loop). There is no "iteration 1" & "iteration 2" &c... they are identical, in the sense of "sharing identity" -- they are not successive iterations, but a singular stream of events.
I agree that they cannot be "presumed to be" identical. Mortals are fallible, and screwups happen. In fact, with time-travel they are overwhelmingly likely to happen. Then you would indeed have different iterations, and paradox, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!
But it CAN be identical. The later-in-life person can do all the things that the TT-person did, and fulfill all the actions perfectly, and create no paradox or separate "iterations." It's just horribly unlikely (which is part of why it's Against The Laws).
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The stable time-loop is ONE timeline (that includes a loop). There is no "iteration 1" & "iteration 2" &c... they are identical, in the sense of "sharing identity" -- they are not successive iterations, but a singular stream of events.
Sorry, I should have specified that any iteration that is identical to another is the same timeline. The iteration thing is just a way of expressing it. If a=b=c=d=etc. where a, b, c, d, etc. are all numbers, then there is only one number.
I agree that they cannot be "presumed to be" identical. Mortals are fallible, and screwups happen. In fact, with time-travel they are overwhelmingly likely to happen. Then you would indeed have different iterations, and paradox, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!
But it CAN be identical. The later-in-life person can do all the things that the TT-person did, and fulfill all the actions perfectly, and create no paradox or separate "iterations." It's just horribly unlikely (which is part of why it's Against The Laws).
Maybe, sure. If the person going back in time was someone who was completely dedicated to not causing trouble and disrupting things, even though it meant that innocents got hurt, then I can see it maybe working.
But the person going back in time is Harry. And by saying "everything is completely the same between iterations (ie Harry did not change anything)" you are asking me to believe that Harry is the kind of person who would allow innocent people to die without trying to save them, the kind of person who would allow an innocent girl to be permanently stained with darkness without trying to prevent it--and I don't. I 100% don't believe that Harry could go back in time to that point and not try to change things, because for him to do so would be fundamentally antithetical to his character.
Therefore, in order for Harry to be the one who went back in time to fix Little Chicago, then either A) he would have to be centuries older, so that the character change makes sense--but this is almost certainly outside the scope of the time covered in the books; B) he would have to have tried to change things and failed utterly and completely, while at the same time not leaving any evidence that he was trying to change things--but Harry is not a quiet or subtle person, so I don't believe that this is possible; or C) he must have actually changed things, and the version of events we see is the result of these changes.
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So what your telling me is that Harry never died. Because had he, there would be no future Harry, unless I'm missing something. So what is the narrative point? Why do it? So Harry and Bob can have that conversation?
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I'd suggest rereading Proven Guilty with the specific purpose of looking for something that stands out as odd. With the knowledge that something is going on under the surface. With that point of view it may be possible to find something.
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Whois Sandra Marling?
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I'd suggest rereading Proven Guilty with the specific purpose of looking for something that stands out as odd. With the knowledge that something is going on under the surface. With that point of view it may be possible to find something.
I've looked, and while there is plenty of odd stuff, I've yet to notice anything that looks like "TT!Harry is running around trying to save Molly and assorted innocents."
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@g33k
Fair enough, my main point against Mab is that she had so much else going on that directly threatened her realm at the time that her nipping out to Chicago to fix Harry’s magical artifact seems like a bit much.
@nadia & g33k
I could see Harry forcing himself to not change the past apart from a few little things here & there - it would be hard & character-building, but technically things work out for him & his allies in PG (no one dies).
Also recall that Odin says to Harry in CD that once an event has happened it takes an almost insurmountable amount of energy to change that event - the law of conservation of history. However Bob points out with his car being stolen example that subtle enough oblique hints can alter the outcome enough that the event that is coming to pass may be somewhat mitigated.
@morriswalters
If you’re being serious about the question regarding Sandra Marling - likely a Black Council agent or a BCV stooge.
@groinkick
I believe a lot of us have done exactly that which is why PG keeps coming up in this forum. Out of curiosity, have you found anything interesting from your rereads?
Here are some of mine:
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,52162.msg2314055.html#msg2314055
and
https://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,52161.msg2314053.html#msg2314053
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I could see Harry forcing himself to not change the past apart from a few little things here & there - it would be hard & character-building, but technically things work out for him & his allies in PG (no one dies).
Innocent people die.
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@morriswalters
If you’re being serious about the question regarding Sandra Marling - likely a Black Council agent or a BCV stooge.
Almost every thread of the book is explained by Cold Days when Maeve is killed. The notable exceptions being, who fixed LC and who is Sandra Marling. And as a minor point, how did the Gatekeeper know there was Black Magic afoot in Chicago.
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@nadia
Sure, but we’ve seen what happens to people when they try to interfere when it’s someone else’s time to die. Marcone saving Harry in DB from the Corpsetaker has terrible consequences for him down the line. Harry trying to read Gard’s expression in SmF also doesn’t end well for Michael (since it was the gun being carried by Harry that Tessa used to shoot him).
So while I think Harry will be sorely tempted to change the fact that innocents die in the phage attacks, he will realize that he shouldn’t change the past; or that changing the past will simply create an alternate timeline where he is able to save them, & one where he doesn’t.
@morriswalters
I don’t know that every thread is solved by CD. Here are some of them:
- Who invites Madrigal Raith to SplatterCon!!! a year ago? Has Maeve been Nfected for a year at this point?
- Why is Mab in the Winter garden? What is the purpose of the garden? What are the other statues in the garden?
- Who all were involved in the attack on Arctis Tor? When did it occur?
- Who hits Harry’s car in the beginning?
- Why were Summer & Winter forces aligned at the border for months against each other despite the Ramps encroaching on their territory?
Regarding your earlier question about the Gatekeeper - he seems to be able to sense black magic outside of linear time - no doubt his mantle & eye help.
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I could definitely see it being Summer, particularly Mother Summer or one of her agents. Elaine could have been playing a really really deep game, secretly in Mother Summer's employ, for example.
I had considered Elaine because she likely has the skill to get through Harry’s wards, get around Bob & fix LC (if she knew she needed to fix it). My only issue here is the timing & the doubts I have about Elaine’s loyalties. Elaine’s last 2 ‘sponsors’ were Justin & Aurora - I don’t think MS would want to risk allowing a possibly Nfected/ thrall/ Black Council Agent access to Harry’s apt at this critical time when Nemesis is in the middle of a big play
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Sure, but we’ve seen what happens to people when they try to interfere when it’s someone else’s time to die. Marcone saving Harry in DB from the Corpsetaker has terrible consequences for him down the line. Harry trying to read Gard’s expression in SmF also doesn’t end well for Michael (since it was the gun being carried by Harry that Tessa used to shoot him).
Marcone I'll grant you, but Uriel specifically told Harry that his interference saved both Michael's and Harry's lives, and that this was Michael's happy ending.
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@morriswalters
I don’t know that every thread is solved by CD. Here are some of them:
- Who invites Madrigal Raith to SplatterCon!!! a year ago? Has Maeve been Nfected for a year at this point?
- Why is Mab in the Winter garden? What is the purpose of the garden? What are the other statues in the garden?
- Who all were involved in the attack on Arctis Tor? When did it occur?
- Who hits Harry’s car in the beginning?
- Why were Summer & Winter forces aligned at the border for months against each other despite the Ramps encroaching on their territory?
Regarding your earlier question about the Gatekeeper - he seems to be able to sense black magic outside of linear time - no doubt his mantle & eye help.
Sandra Marling. Unless you have a simpler theory this is a foreshadowing of the events in White Knight. Somebody wanted the finger pointed at Madrigal. Harry was more than likely supposed to go all Harry on him, leaving a corpse. Yes, Maeve was infected by the time of Dead Beat, because at that point Lea is detained by Mab although she is unaware that Maeve is compromised. After that point she couldn't have gotten to Maeve.
Mab is watching, see the final paragraph. A prison. The other statures are described by JB in some WOJ.
We know the identity of the Denarian involved although no one else in particular. In the description we know that the deaths of the guard is caused by hellfire thus placing the Denarian and his identity is revealed in Small Favor. The attack occurs sometime during the events of Dead Beat. Somewhere around the same time the Reds attack the Senior Council calling in the aid of Outsiders.
Ace is the driver, Murphy describes the attack as an attack of opportunity. The only other candidate is Cassius. But no wizard could safely make the bombs used later. And Cassius can still use magic as evidenced by his attack on Mouse in the museum. By the time of Cold Days it is fairly obvious that Ace has been following Harry and in point of fact has stolen from Harry's repertoire. As evidenced by his use of the Wyld Fae. Consider his father is the Red Cap and remember Harry's description of him.
The attacks on the Winter Court were designed to pin Mab to the borders of Winter and to keep her from retaliating against the Reds. While Maeve was doing her whisper campaign against Mab she was using Lilly as a pawn. This serves to keep Mab in the dark about the degree of Summers involvement. Down two of her primary allies Mab has restricted freedom of motion and must react as if Summer is preparing to attack even though she suspects otherwise.
The attack itself probably had no other purpose. There is no indicator that shows that other than kicking down the door that anything else occurred.
Lea's involvement in Changes is almost certainly payback for the events of Arctis Tor. Changes, Cold Days and Skin Game are all payback books, where Mab wreaks vengeance of those who wronged her. The Reds, Maeve and Nicodemus.
I suspect that Mab told the Gatekeeper. She's on a war footing and is watching everything. Mab's plan is designed to expose the traitor or traitors within Winter. Her involvement consists entirely of warning Harry. After that it's all about watching the pieces move. Mab simply turned the light on in a roach infected kitchen(our illustrious wizard) and watched where everybody scurried. Scarecrow was acting under someones orders, probably Maeve's. This is the simplest explanation of his behavior. Lucius Glau was coopted by somebody, probably in Egypt. A number there will turn up on his sisters phone in Turn Coat. She could have back stabbed him, that's questionable and I won't support it. Taking Molly to Arctis Tor has no benefit to Mab, but plays to Maeve's story that Mab is crazy. Mab will tell Harry in Cold Days that she had another purpose in mind for Molly.
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Ace is the driver, Murphy describes the attack as an attack of opportunity. The only other candidate is Cassius. But no wizard could safely make the bombs used later. And Cassius can still use magic as evidenced by his attack on Mouse in the museum.
Also, Cassius is dead at this point. Remember, he was killed in Dead Beat, which is the book before Proven Guilty.
Unless you're claiming that Cassius is the time traveller...it would certainly be an original theory.
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@morriswalters
Wow, a lot to unpack here. I will point out that almost everything you’re saying is a theory (some with strong evidence). The main thing CD confirms is that it is Maeve & not Mab who has “gone insane”.
Who is pointing a finger at Madrigal in WN? IIRC Madrigal is the one who wants to involve Harry. Madrigal & Vito are hatching a plan to usurp the White throne (which is the main plot of the novel). I guess you could say that Cowl/ the Circle are using Madrigal.
There is also evidence that the garden is more than just a prison - Mab was curing Lea there. I don’t recall the WoJ about who the statues are.
Just knowing the identity of one of the Denarians involved is not enough regarding the attack unless you think Thorned Namshiel mounted the assault on Artis Tor by himself. The point is that the attack was concerted effort by what was likely an army - the point is whose army?
As @nadia points out, Cassius is dead at this point. There is strong evidence that it was Ace using an opportunity- but it could also be TT Harry.
There is no evidence that Mab positioned most of her forces at the Summer border ready to attack just to flush out a traitor (it’s possible, but it’s just a theory) - the fact that Mab has done this is used by Maeve to convince Harry that Mab has been Nfected.
My own theory is that Maeve told Mab that Lily, like Aurora, had also been Nfected causing Mab to expect Nemesis’ next attack to come from that direction. Maeve used the fact that the Winter armies were at the Summer border to attack Arctis Tor, besieging Mab (who was able to hide out in the Winter garden) & outing herself in the process. Maeve is able to convince Mab of this because we see how well she’d ingratiated herself with Lily by PG - she was manipulating Lily into doing Nemesis’ dirty work (as shown in CD) more overtly than herself - painting a subtle target on Lily’s back.
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Wow, a lot to unpack here. I will point out that almost everything you’re saying is a theory (some with strong evidence).
Everything is theory until Jim writes it.
The Black Council is the culprit in pointing the finger at Madrigal. The finger is pointed at Madrigal in Proven Guilty not White Knight. The foreshadowing is the the attack on Molly by Sandra Marling.I guess you could say that Cowl/ the Circle are using Madrigal.
I suppose you could say this text from White Knight says it."And the fool with you?"
"Still ignorant, my lord. I can preserve or dispose of him as you see fit." Grey Cloak took a deep breath and said, "He has gotten the wizard involved. There is some sort of vendetta between them, it would seem."
The little mist figure made a hissing sound. "The fool. There is not enough profit in Dresden's death to jeopardize the operation."
Mab is curing Lea by torturing her, the garden isn't a hospital. I suppose you could call it Mab's happy place.
The Black Council attacked Arctis Tor. From Small Favor.Mab paused, turned, casually showing off the gorgeous curves of her calves, and tilted her head at me. “Nicodemus and his ilk were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning to abuse them to further his ambition. That was reason enough to see his designs disrupted. And among the Fallen was one with much to answer for to me, personally, for its attack upon my home.”
“The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor,” I said. “One of them used Hellfire.”
Mab showed me her snow-white teeth. “The Watchman and I,” Grimalkin mewled for her, “had a common enemy this day. The enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by the child Archive.”
I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the fallen angel and his master sorceries around as if he’d been a stuffed practice dummy. “Thorned Namshiel.”
Everybody at the attack at Arctis Tor other than Thorned Namshiel has the role of spear carrier. The only method of attack discussed is hellfire.
I was mistaken, nadia.skylark is correct, Cassius is dead by this point, so we are left with only Ace. Harry will be attacked multiple times over the next books by someone not magical. including a car bomb under Murphy's car and the bomb dropped on him in Cold Days.There is no evidence that Mab positioned most of her forces at the Summer border ready to attack just to flush out a traitor (it’s possible, but it’s just a theory) - the fact that Mab has done this is used by Maeve to convince Harry that Mab has been Nfected.
Mab tells Harry this, in Small Favor.“When one Court moves, the other perforce moves with it,” Mab said.
This is why she is at the border. Summer is the only force that can threaten her in Faerie. She uses Harry to flush out the traitor. Note this exchange with Maeve.“Why hasn’t Winter moved against the Red Court?”
Maeve regarded me with an odd little twinkle in her eye, then nodded and said, “Mab has not allowed it.”
Fix and Lily traded a quick look of surprise.
“Sooth,” Maeve said, nodding, evidently enjoying their reaction. “The Queen has readied her forces to strike at Summer, and has furthermore given specific orders preventing her captains from conducting operations against the Red Court.”
“That’s madness,” Lily said quietly.
Maeve folded her hands on the table, frowning at something far away, and said, “It may well be. Dark things stir in Winter’s heart. Things even I have never before seen. Dangerous things. I believe they are a portent.”
I tilted my head a little, focused on her. “How so?”
“What Aurora attempted was insane. Even among the Sidhe,” Maeve replied. “Her actions could have thrown enormous forces out of balance, to the ruin of all.”
This is a subtle lie. Maeve doesn't mention the attack, though as one of the Queens she had to know. Harry only learns of it when he goes to Arctis Tor. The question isn't who attacked, but why. We see the result, the Reds are able to attack with impunity. It also locks down the timing. Mab gives no indication of the attack when she is summoned by Harry in Lea's place in Dead Beat. By the events of Proven Guilty the attack is over and done. This is also indicative of Maeve being Nemfected.
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I had considered Elaine because she likely has the skill to get through Harry’s wards, get around Bob & fix LC (if she knew she needed to fix it). My only issue here is the timing & the doubts I have about Elaine’s loyalties. Elaine’s last 2 ‘sponsors’ were Justin & Aurora - I don’t think MS would want to risk allowing a possibly Nfected/ thrall/ Black Council Agent access to Harry’s apt at this critical time when Nemesis is in the middle of a big play
Elaine was IN Harry's apartment; MS either "allowed" it ... or couldn't/wouldn't stop it ... or didn't care...
As E. says to Harry, he needs to change how he does his wards -- it's not that her skills are sufficient to get through his wards, it's that she already had the keys because he (lazily) didn't change the basic structures they learned together. And of course she knows all about Bob, and would know how to work around him (or warn MS that SHE would need to).
We (the readers) don't know Elaine's real allegiance.
I don't doubt that the Mothers DO know it, however...
And I still prefer Mab acting as Lea-surrogate, because Lea swore to protect Harry and the NN-backdoor is too perfect.
And above THAT one, I prefer that TT-Harry does it.
But maybe Jim has Other Plans... time will tell!
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Agreed, Madrigal was supposed to be the fall guy in PG. In WN he is more of a convenient if expendable helper to Vito & Cowl’s plan to usurp the White throne. When does Molly get attacked by Sandra Marling?
I still think that the garden is more than just that - it contains Winter’s Wellspring for one. I think if anything that it is a special prison where Mab keeps Nfected or Circle agents from Winter as a re-education camp (to try & cure them).
Arctis Tor
The point about the assault on Arctis Tor is that while Namshiel was throwing hellfire around, there is no way he is formidable enough to assault the heart of Winter alone - there were definitely other heavy hitters from the Black Council/ Circle involved.
Positioning of Fae troops during & prior to PG
Regarding the Faerie forces on the borders - remember Lily’s words after Harry & company cross back into Chicago - she says that she needed Harry to use Summer fire in Winter’s Wellspring so that Summer could withdraw forces from the border & start attacking the Ramps. Lily cannot lie, so this means that Summer only had their forces at the Winter border because Mab had first amassed her troops there (also supported by your quote)
For Mab’s plan to play out as you’re suggesting regarding flushing out the traitor - she has to send away most of her protection to the Summer border while she is down 2 of her more powerful retinue (Lea & the WK), & Nemesis is in the middle of a strong play. Also note the frequent presence of Outsiders during the Ramps attacks on the WC - her inability to stop this reflects poorly on her. Then she has to wait & see who attacks the heart of her domain which lies undefended enough for the attackers to break through, endangering the Winter Wellspring. This would be an extraordinarily risky move on her part....
The consequences of these actions are to cast doubts into the minds of her allies & Signatories of the accords about her sanity. What purpose does this serve since Nemesis would know that Mab is not Nfected? The consequence of these actions are that the WC and Summer are flummoxed & future insults are given to Mab by the likes of Lara Raith & Nicodemus in the following books. For Mab to have planned this would require her to be willfully perceived as weak by the supernatural community at large - something that is & has been detrimental to her goals since PG.
Instead it makes more sense that she was duped into sending her troops in the direction she was expecting Nemesis’ next attack (from Summer). This left her undefended at Arctis Tor, giving the Black council confidence to attack her stronghold. What saved her is that she is able to hide away in the Winter garden & send the Fetches to grab Molly, bringing Harry in to save the day.
To me the attack at Arctis Tor was Mab at her lowest point - she is just about able to survive, & then spends the next few books extracting her revenge (as you point out). This would also add a layer to her palpable anger after the attack (where her speech cannot be heard by mortal ears) in addition to the fact that her daughter has been Nfected. As Sarissa notes in CD, at Arctis Tor surviving is winning.
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When does Molly get attacked by Sandra Marling?
Sandra Marling is involved in every step that pushes Molly towards black magic. This is very low key.The point about the assault on Arctis Tor is that while Namshiel was throwing hellfire around, there is no way he is formidable enough to assault the heart of Winter alone - there were definitely other heavy hitters from the Black Council/ Circle involved.
Insert any characters that please you. But Thorned Namshiel throws hellfire and Mab names him specifically. The hellfire is the important point. Later in Cold Days Mother Summer tells Harry that the Councils count on Winters forces in Winter is correct, approximately 50,000. Any assault force that tarried would have faced all of them once fire was thrown at Arctis Tor. Harry's assault on Arctis Tor can be seen as mirroring what probably went on with Thorned Namshiel.Regarding the Faerie forces on the borders - remember Lily’s words after Harry & company cross back into Chicago - she says that she needed Harry to use Summer fire in Winter’s Wellspring so that Summer could withdraw forces from the border & start attacking the Ramps. Lily cannot lie, so this means that Summer only had their forces at the Winter border because Mab had first amassed her troops there (also supported by your quote)
True, and that was the point. The second attack mirrors the first and has almost the same effect.For Mab’s plan to play out as you’re suggesting regarding flushing out the traitor - she has to send away most of her protection to the Summer border while she is down 3 of her her most powerful retinue (Lea, Maeve & the WK) & Nemesis is in the middle of a strong play. Then she has to wait & see who attacks the heart of her domain which lies undefended enough for the attackers to break through, endangering the Winter Wellspring.
No. The Wellspring is in no danger. Mab is there and her armies are close at hand. Cowl's ascension has failed and the Reds attack failed to achieve its goal in Dead Beat. And Summer is stymied. The attackers, Harry and his allies, don't break in, they walk in through what is, in all likelihood, the same portal by which Thorned Namshiel entered.What purpose does this serve since Nemesis would know that Mab is not Nfected? All it did was to force the Grey Council to send Harry in to investigate & allowed future insults to be given to Mab by the likes of Lara Raith & Nicodemus.
This is part of Maeve's plan. And think about how it works out for Maeve and Nicodemus. If I were Lara I would wear a Mab proof vest and not invite Harry to any family gathering in the future.Instead it makes more sense that she was duped into sending her troops in the direction she was expecting Nemesis’ next attack (from Summer). This left her undefended at Arctis Tor, giving the Black council confidence to attack her stronghold. What saved her is that she is able to hide away in the Winter garden & send the Fetches to grab Molly, bringing Harry in to save the day.
Cart before horse. Harry summons Lea during Dead Beat. Mab shows instead. The attack at Arctis Tor has not yet occurred. Cowl is attempting the Dark Hallow and the Reds are moving. This is when the attack occurs. The attack prevents Mab from intervening in either the Reds attack or in Cowl's ascension and is the purpose of the attack. And why does everyone assume that Mab had Molly brought to Arctis Tor? Whoever had the Scarecrow kill Glau and attempt to kill Harry and the others throws doubt on Mab calling Harry to Arctis Tor. Why try to kill Harry or for that matter Glau? Whoever was controlling Scarecrow had Molly brought to the Wellspring. My money is on Maeve.
Small Favor is Mab's and Winter's nadir. Mab has been stripped of her those who are closest to her. And she knows. And at that point she is attacked indirectly by Titania who is attempting to kill Harry, whom she has been using as a de facto Winter Knight.
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Cowl is attempting the Dark Hallow and the Reds are moving. This is when the attack occurs. The attack prevents Mab from intervening in either the Reds attack or in Cowl's ascension and is the purpose of the attack.
Wait, what? I assume this is a theory, because there is no evidence for this whatsoever.
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@nadia
Definitely agree.
@morriswalters
Hellfire is the most noticeable (since it leaves an after smell), especially to Harry. There is evidence that other types of magic were used as well (such as acid) - they just didn’t leave as strong an impression behind. For all we know Dragons were involved in the attack as well.
I don’t see how Namshiel & Harry’s visits to Arctis Tor mirror each other - the former blew through the front gate & killed the entire skeleton garrison at the fortress, the latter sneaks in to save a mortal imprisoned there. The only similarity is that they both wield hellfire in Arctis Tor. Why do you think they entered through the same portal?
If Mab couldn’t protect her own front gates, I don’t see how she was in a position to adequately protect the Wellspring. She was hiding out there, not waiting for the attacking host to reach the Wellspring. Her entire personal guard had been slaughtered - as Harry theorizes this happened while they were covering Mab’s retreat to the Wellspring. Perhaps you suggest that Mab & Namshiel were the only survivors of this attack?
Her armies are not close at hand - they are only able to get there fast because as Lily says, Maeve has greatly sped up the passage of time in the last few moments of the battle (no doubt to try & kill Harry before he’s able to cross/ pretend to Mab that she was trying to help post-assault.)
Maeve’s plan is to paint Mab as Nfected to non-Black Council parties - it would make sense that she would help orchestrate some of Mab’s unusual actions to serve this purpose (like lying to her & telling her that Lily is Nfected). It works out poorly for Nicodemus 7 books later when Mab has her retinue back (WL, Lea & WK) & is in a position to be dealing out vengeance. Lara on the other hand was dealing minor insults to see what Winter would do - Harry has already dealt with it as Mab sees it in WN.
Mab shows up when Lea is summoned in DB because Lea is imprisoned for being Nfected. There is no evidence that the attack happens in the few minutes she’s in Chicago. How would anyone know that Harry was going to summon Lea in DB at all? It’s not like he reaches out to her for help often....
Cowl’s Darkhallow attempt & the Ramp attack are not simultaneous events (Luccio & the wardens who arrive in Chicago are survivors of Ramp attack), so why would the Arctis Tor assault be so coordinated? The Ramp attack happens first (to wipe out the SC/ wardens), then Cowl’s ascension as a dark God second (so the WC can’t interfere - Mab already can’t since her Knight is imprisoned), who will then help with the assault on Arctis Tor because then Black Council has has someone in Mab’s league third. Harry stops the plan by interrupting the 2nd event in DB, which in turn makes the assault on Arctis Tor fail since Mab is able to get to the Wellspring.
The reasons I think Mab sent the Fetch are:
- The scarecrow was the Eldest Fetch - directly beholden to Mab (like Cat Sith for malks). They are known as Mab’s personal spies.
- The Scarecrow is able to get inside the Carpenter household despite the angelic guard - perhaps possible because of Uriel
- Sandra Marling & co (likely Black Council) are manipulating Molly & have put her on a path that leads to her becoming a warlock. By kidnapping Molly & bringing her to the heart of Winter, Mab would be able to keep her away from the clutches of the BC or kill her if she too has been Nfected - my WAG is that since Mab believes Lily has been Nfected (another WAG), she identifies Molly as a replacement candidate (note her words at the end of CD about originally considering Molly to be a better candidate for Summer). Note that Molly’s life starts going downhill (getting caught with drugs at a party) around the same time Winter amasses it’s troops at Summer’s border (around a year before the events of PG).
I would say that PG is when Mab is personally at her nadir - she is down a WK; her Lady & #2 have been Nfected & her home has been attacked. After the attack, she literally cannot converse with mortals without a “translator”. SmF I’d say is the nadir of her reputation within the supernatural community - Nic has flagrantly violated the Accords twice & Mab has no depth on her bench to deal with it (except Harry’s debt). Her strongest allies outside of Faerie (White Council) are still recovering from the devastating Ramp wars & in no position to start another one with the Denarians.
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The Scarecrow is able to get inside the Carpenter household despite the angelic guard - perhaps possible because of Uriel
A minor point: the angelic guards don't turn up until the end of Small Favor, when Michael is forced into retirement. What the Scarecrow has to deal with to get inside the Carpenter house is their ridiculously powerful threshold.
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Dragons? It mirrors the previous attack by having Harry do the same thing as Thorned Namshiel does, throw fire, and then showing the results of doing so.
Why do you think they entered through the same portal?
Both groups share a similar problem, how do you create a portal to Arctis Tor? And then how do you get away? We have two instances of people trying to create portals to places of power. The break in to Hades domain and the attack at Chichen Itza.If Mab couldn’t protect her own front gates, I don’t see how she was in a position to adequately protect the Wellspring.
What makes you think that Mab was at Arctis Tor at all? If there was an army why stop until you have achieved your objective? What did Thorned Namshiel accomplish?Her armies are not close at hand - they are only able to get there fast because as Lily says, Maeve has greatly sped up the passage of time in the last few moments of the battle (no doubt to try & kill Harry before he’s able to cross/ pretend to Mab that she was trying to help post-assault.)
One might assume if Maeve could do such a thing that Mab could do likewise.Mab shows up when Lea is summoned in DB because Lea is imprisoned for being Nfected. There is no evidence that the attack happens in the few minutes she’s in Chicago. How would anyone know that Harry was going to summon Lea in DB at all? It’s not like he reaches out to her for help often....
The timing has nothing to do with Lea being summoned. It purely a marker.Cowl’s Darkhallow attempt & the Ramp attack are not simultaneous events (Luccio & the wardens who arrive in Chicago are survivors of Ramp attack), so why would the Arctis Tor assault be so coordinated? The Ramp attack happens first (to wipe out the SC/ wardens), then Cowl’s ascension as a dark God second (so the WC can’t interfere - Mab already can’t since her Knight is imprisoned), who will then help with the assault on Arctis Tor because then Black Council has has someone in Mab’s league third. Harry stops the plan by interrupting the 2nd event in DB, which in turn makes the assault on Arctis Tor fail since Mab is able to get to the Wellspring.
The attack against the WC starts three days before the meeting in Mcanally's. The Reds follow them into Sidhe territory a day later. Mab meets with Harry. My working assumption has been that the attack happens after Mab shows up, but it doesn't have to be that way. It could have happened before and the timing works better if it did. The only thing you need accept is that Mab isn't quaking with fear hiding out in the garden.
Harry in effect invited the fetches past the threshold when he set them upon Molly. Harry himself suggests that Molly invited them in thinking that one of them was Harry. Pick your poison. Whatever the eldest fetches role in Winter is, he works for Maeve as much as Mab. To have Mab pulling his strings you have to account for Glau and the attack at the Fool Moon garage. And if he was a valued servitor why did Mab allow Harry to kill him, since she was apparently present when Harry scorched his behind?
Mab quits speaking in Small Favor because she has learned that Maeve has been infected.(Cold Days) She doesn't speak directly to Harry again until after he becomes the Winter Knight.(Changes)
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Both groups share a similar problem, how do you create a portal to Arctis Tor? And then how do you get away?
They could have travelled through the Nevernever, or have been working with someone strong enough to put a portal wherever they liked, or had the time to set up an area specifically to have the correct resonances.
Harry in effect invited the fetches past the threshold when he set them upon Molly.
Harry doesn't have the ability to invite anyone past the Carpenters' threshold, because he doesn't live in the house.
Harry himself suggests that Molly invited them in thinking that one of them was Harry.
We have WoJ that she didn't and that the fetch just muscled through.
nd if he was a valued servitor why did Mab allow Harry to kill him, since she was apparently present when Harry scorched his behind?
Because we have WoJ that Mab would allow everyone in Winter to be killed if it served her purpose--one guy doesn't signify.
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Little Chicago was fixed in the same book Arctis Tor was attacked. Arctis Tor was specifically made to look weak by Mab to lure her enemies into a costly frontal assault. After that she is cleaning up for the next few books now that their main strength is weakened. How does she lure them in? She sends her most obvious known forces away. Who is her hole card? TT Harry. I don't know if he fixed little Chicago before or after the fight at Arctis Tor, but since we already suspect he was in the area for that fixing Little Chicago, why not look at what other purposes being in that time could accomplish?
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Little Chicago was fixed in the same book Arctis Tor was attacked. Arctis Tor was specifically made to look weak by Mab to lure her enemies into a costly frontal assault. After that she is cleaning up for the next few books now that their main strength is weakened. How does she lure them in? She sends her most obvious known forces away. Who is her hole card? TT Harry. I don't know if he fixed little Chicago before or after the fight at Arctis Tor, but since we already suspect he was in the area for that fixing Little Chicago, why not look at what other purposes being in that time could accomplish?
If he was dealing with the attack on Arctis Tor after fixing Little Chicago, then that resolves my issues with TT!Harry being the one to fix it.
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@morriswalters
The attack at Arctis Tor left thousands dead, including ALL Winter defenders. There is not a soul alive that isn’t involved in the Molly/ Fetch plot or is a prisoner in the Garden (or Mab). How does this mirror what Harry did apart from throwing around hellfire? Harry’s was a surgical strike, the assault was.... an assault that blew through the front gates.
My read on what happened is that yes, Mab was likely able to get away/ hide out in the Garden during the assault - this is the reason the assault failed. That was one of the things the attack was trying to accomplish (kill/ imprison/ Nfect Mab) - but since they didn’t have a necro-god on their side, they were unable to fully breach the fortress - they weren’t able to get to the Wellspring before the castle defenses/ Mab/ TT Harry were able to rout the attackers. We still don’t know if any of the bones present belonged to the attacking party - Harry only comments on the goblins/ trolls.
Mab isn’t quaking in fear at the Garden because she has won at this point. If Mab has been undefended for so long, are the few minutes she spends with Harry really the opening they needed? Surely Mab travels around quite a bit especially since she’s down a WK, her #2 & her Lady has not been doing her job for 150 years. In fact her behavior with Harry during that conversation in DB seems to show that her biggest issue is curing Lea. The next time Harry actually talks to Mab, she needs a translator.
I understand the theory of how Maeve could have been behind the Fetches - it’s a good one. I just prefer the one where Mab sends them. Think about it this way - what was the point of Harry going to Arctis Tor? Kidnapping Molly & bringing her to post-devastation Arctis Tor would only serve to bring Harry & possibly her KotC father in to save her (that Charity comes instead doesn’t really change things since steel was able to neutralize some of the Fae advantage like the Swords do). How does this serve the BC? If Mab is triumphant at Arctis Tor, why is the Fetch able to do anything to Molly? Surely in the seat of her power, she could dispatch the Scarecrow with ease.
The killing of Eldest Fetch could be explained by its failure at its job as Mab’s spymaster - it failed in SK, with Lea & Maeve. Mab doesn’t abide weakness/ incompetence. If Harry is not formidable enough to take out the Fetch (he will have to battle even great foes as WK), then perhaps he is the wrong choice as Mab’s Knight.
Perhaps the Scarecrow killed Glau first because Mab knows he is the link to the BC, hence the more dangerous between him & Madrigal. Mab also doesn’t know of Harry’s allegiances fully yet - he has met with Maeve & Lily so who knows if he’s been drinking their Kool-Aid.
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@nadia
Agreed on the portal. Surely a Russian wizard wouldn’t have to come to Chicago to open a way to Arctis Tor....
I do recall that WoJ about the Fetch muscling through. Wasn’t sure if Michael’s family always had angelic protection or it only started upon retirement.
@toodeep
The theory that Mab allowed the attack works much better if she’s got an ace in the hole like TT Harry.
@g33k
Agreed Elaine could definitely have done it for all the reasons you’ve listed. I’m still not convinced about her loyalties.
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They could have travelled through the Nevernever, or have been working with someone strong enough to put a portal wherever they liked, or had the time to set up an area specifically to have the correct resonances.
Thus Pell's Theater.
As an aside about thresholds. If that is true then thresholds are pretty much moot at this point. What's the point?
@kbrizzle
I need to clarify something for myself before we continue. Exactly when do you think the attack took place? I understand the theory of how Maeve could have been behind the Fetches - it’s a good one. I just prefer the one where Mab sends them. Think about it this way - what was the point of Harry going to Arctis Tor? Kidnapping Molly & bringing her to post-devastation Arctis Tor would only serve to bring Harry & possibly her KotC father in to save her (that Charity comes instead doesn’t really change things since steel was able to neutralize some of the Fae advantage like the Swords do). How does this serve the BC? If Mab is triumphant at Arctis Tor, why is the Fetch able to do anything to Molly? Surely in the seat of her power, she could dispatch the Scarecrow with ease.
I've already offered you an explanation. I'll clarify. Bringing Molly to Arctis Tor throws suspicion on Mab. It makes her look mad. Which is the narrative that Maeve will sell until she is killed. Mab is looking for footprints that will lead her to the person who got the attackers in close to Arctis Tor. She knows Lea was compromised and she suspects others. Aurora was her first shock, then Lea and finally the attack at Arctis Tor. She needs to know so she lets it play out at her fortress. Her one active move, if you believe she was behind it, was to feed Harry information through a source who Harry trusts. After that she would see it all. The attacks at the Fool Moon garage and at the Con. The phages attack on Michael's home, the location of the portal and Maeve's actions. My guess is that this is the moment when she realizes that Maeve has been compromised. There are others but for this I'll go with this.
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@g33k
Agreed Elaine could definitely have done it for all the reasons you’ve listed. I’m still not convinced about her loyalties.
Convinced? You want to be convinced?
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaa!
And Jim Butcher has a bridge he wants to sell you...
Seriously, I'm not gonna be "convinced" of bloody much until the Dresden Files is complete! Given the TT/MM/etc shenanigans that we are ALREADY confident Butcher will be up to, locking down the facts of who did what, and when, and why... All subject to later Big Reveal revision. All of it.
Here, have another off-the-wall theory: after loosing Michael at a mere 72 years of age, an embittered Charity takes up magic again, seeking to cheat Time and Death alike.
Kumori is TT Charity Carpenter.
Totally works! Totally.
:-X
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Thus Pell's Theater.
What? I don't even... I just listed three possibilities that would make it completely unnecessary to use Pell's theater, and this is the response?
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They could have travelled through the Nevernever, or have been working with someone strong enough to put a portal wherever they liked, or had the time to set up an area specifically to have the correct resonances.
What? I don't even... I just listed three possibilities that would make it completely unnecessary to use Pell's theater, and this is the response?
Pell's Theater is your number 3. Didn't you think it odd that a little dingy movie house just randomly had the parameters to be a location that ends up being at the front door of Arctis Tor. It wasn't needed by the fetches unless Jim has made a continuity error. When Pell is attacked they enter and leave Chicago via the mirrors in the bathroom.
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Pell's Theater is your number 3. Didn't you think it odd that a little dingy movie house just randomly had the parameters to be a location that ends up being at the front door of Arctis Tor. It wasn't needed by the fetches unless Jim has made a continuity error. When Pell is attacked they enter and leave Chicago via the mirrors in the bathroom.
I just figured that going through mirrors dropped them in random parts of the Nevernever, and they needed Pell's theater to bring Molly to Arctis Tor.
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@kbrizzle
I need to clarify something for myself before we continue. Exactly when do you think the attack took place? I've already offered you an explanation.
I'll clarify. Bringing Molly to Arctis Tor throws suspicion on Mab. It makes her look mad. Which is the narrative that Maeve will sell until she is killed. Mab is looking for footprints that will lead her to the person who got the attackers in close to Arctis Tor. She knows Lea was compromised and she suspects others. Aurora was her first shock, then Lea and finally the attack at Arctis Tor. She needs to know so she lets it play out at her fortress. Her one active move, if you believe she was behind it, was to feed Harry information through a source who Harry trusts. After that she would see it all. The attacks at the Fool Moon garage and at the Con. The phages attack on Michael's home, the location of the portal and Maeve's actions. My guess is that this is the moment when she realizes that Maeve has been compromised. There are others but for this I'll go with this.
Hmm I’d say with the passage of time being heavily manipulated in Faerie, it’s very difficult to nail. I’m fairly certain it happens after Mab takes Lea’s place in DB since she seems to be in relatively good spirits (until the mention of Kemmlerites), & before Harry travels to Arctis Tor to save Molly. For all we know, it was done in concert with the Outsider attack on the WC facilities in Oregon at the early middle of PG.
If the attack happens during DB, why does Mab send away her troops to the Summer border for nearly a year after the assault? It would make more sense that the attack happened more recently than that. Also why the Summer border? (Unless Mab has been duped into believing that the next Black Council attack will come from that direction).
At a high-level view, here is what I think likely happened between DB & PG.
The Black Council mounts a complex 3-part campaign to upset the power balance in the supernatural world. The first part of the plan is to neutralize the White Council through a blitzkrieg - hence Luccio talks about how the Ramps broke every rule of war; called up Outsiders, mortal sorcerers & vanilla mercenaries to attack, including going into the hospitals to off the wounded.
This would leave the White Council in a state of shock & temporary paralysis while it recovers from the savagery & unexpectedness of the attack (& its participants). Taking advantage of this, the BC mounts plan number 2 soon after (3 days as you point out) - have one of their own become a necro-god - Cowl.
This would upset the balance of power in supernatural world - there is a newly created god who might’ve become even more powerful than Mab. Plan 3 was to have the necro-god spearhead the assault on Arctis Tor, followed by WC HQ in Edinburgh. Since part 2 failed, I imagine the timeline of part 3 would have to be altered to accommodate this.
Parts 2 & 3 fail because Harry and Mab are able to defeat the BC sorties. If you want mirroring - perhaps Harry in DB eventually triumphing through luck & skill(after getting beat up) mirrors how Mab is able to rout the attackers in PG. Hell, both their houses get attacked with the thresholds/ wards being breached.
Regarding Maeve bringing Molly to Arctis Tor to make Mab look more crazy/ guilty - knowing what we do about what Molly becomes & the interest Sandra Marling has shown in her, do you really think Maeve would want Molly to be in Mab’s hands at all? It makes more sense to me that Mab had Molly brought to the winter garden to kill her if she had been Nfected or if not, to remove her from the clutches of the BC.
If Maeve has control of Eldest Fetch & free run of Arctis Tor, why didn’t try to free the Nfected Lea?
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@nadia & morriswalters
Regarding Pell’s Theater opening up to Arctis Tor - this is likely because someone prepared it to be so. If the BC are based in Russia hypothetically, do you really think they would need to come to Chicago to open a Way to Arctis Tor? Surely there are Ways to Arctis Tor from Russia... Also, I don’t see what the point of having the BC use the same entrance would be? It would be an operationally risky move on the part of the BC, especially since they know that Mab is monitoring the city (unless they know she is besieged at Arctis Tor at that time or something).
@g33k
Haha, that’s one I haven’t heard. I think it’s much more likely that Kumori is Kim Delaney from FM. As a fervent environmentalist & dabbler in magic who was killed trying to do something good (contain Harley mcFinn) - I think her viewpoint on ending death would match Kumori’s. As Harry’s former apprentice, she is much more respectful to him than she needs to be (in a way I don’t think Elaine would’ve been).
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@kbrizzle
I'll show you my thinking. For this story arc Mab has been under constant attack since Grave Peril. First Lea is subverted in Grave Peril and then she goes to war with Summer because Aurora has gone mad. The important point in Dead Beat is the discovery by Mab that Lea is subverted. At this point she now knows two things without doubt. Nemesis has infiltrated both Summer and Winter. This is my reasoning for Winter moving to the border after the attack in Dead Beat.
She knows that Thorned Namshiel led the attack. What she doesn't know is who is behind it. If she goes to war with the Reds and Nemesis can manipulate Summer then she can be defeated, since as you note two of her powerful agents are down. So she turns to the greater possible threat, Summer. The attack on Arctis Tor was never meant to be anything other than an distraction, designed to keep Mab out of the fray while the Reds and the Black Council move.
This will continue to one degree or another until the events of Changes. And she will use Harry as a stalking horse in the interim. Something you might give some thought to is why Arctis Tor is empty. If the attack has just occurred then the forces of Winter should be moving to Arctis Tor as they do when Harry throws Summer fire. If the attack happened any time before why hasn't Winter cleaned up the mess and why has it been left unguarded by anyone other than the fetches?
As to why the BC would use the theater, you assume that someone on the BC set up the conditions for the portal. But the one time we have seen that done it was with the coordination of the person on the other side, in Skin Games Hades and Marcone set it up.
Anyway this has been fun.
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@morriswalters
It has been fun! It’s forced me to really re-examine the premises of my WAGs about PG. The one thing I’ll point out in your argument is that after Aurora (& most of her retinue) have been killed in SK, there is no reason to think that Summer is still Nfected (unless Maeve has been lying to Mab about it).
Agreed - why Arctis Tor is empty when Harry gets there is a puzzle. If the attack happened a year ago, why does Mab’s stronghold (& the Wellspring) lie open for anyone to enter for such a long period? Or, if the attack happened a few days ago, why haven’t Winter forces come back to protect the Wellspring sooner?
I’m sure we both have our theories & we’ll hopefully find out one way or the other in MM. Perhaps the answer simply lies in the fact that there is a general imbalance in the Fae courts (skewed towards Summer) prior to Harry assuming the WK mantle.
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It's like a murder investigation. Who has means , motive and opportunity? Since Harry was keeping LC under wraps before first use, who could have known of it existence in the present? That list is small. Maybe Mab and/or the Gatekeeper. It's never explained implicitly, but Mab has some means of seeing what happens in Chicago. She reproduces a past event in Chicago, in full animation, in Small Favor. And the Gatekeeper has showed the ability to find Harry wherever he might be. He does it in Summer Knight and Turncoat. However the ability to be able to do so removes the need to use LC, since she/they seem to already have a more powerful tool that does the same thing.
Not necessarily. Little Chicago might have been capable of working in some niche way that Rashid's surveillance abilities don't. Or if it was Mab using it to snoop on Maeve to realize she was Nemfected, there are a couple reasons her own means might not have been able to see what she needed.
One, Sidhe power is highly seasonal. Just because she could monitor most of Marcone's kidnapping in the middle of a snowstorm in Small Favor doesn't mean she'd have been able to get a similar level of detail in the summer heat wave that was going on in PG. Two, assuming she was watching Maeve, one Winter queen snooping on another with Winter power might be hard to do unnoticed. Little Chicago might be a lesser spy tool overall that Mab's own, but also harder for Maeve to detect. Or three, Maeve might have a lesser version of Mab's defense against other immortals like Anduriel snooping - another version of why a lesser overall tool might be better for the purpose by way of being made by a mortal.