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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Kindler on May 03, 2019, 06:52:29 PM
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So I was thinking about some scenes that I really want to see, but which aren't super-relevant to the ongoing plot. For instance, I really, really want to see Harry soulgaze his daughter for the first time. Mostly because I assume that Harry is absolutely freaking terrified of doing that, both because he's afraid she hates him and/or because he's afraid she will hate him based on what she sees. It would be an entirely new kind of vulnerability from Harry, who's had so little experience with family, and pretty much zero experience with Maggie.
I know it probably won't happen for a long time unless it's accidental since Dresden will want to put that off as long as he can, so it's not like I'm expecting it in Peace Talks (though a Murphy soulgaze is on the table, and I believe there is some anticipation in the community for that event).
What moments like this—ones that are pretty much guaranteed to happen—are you most looking forward to?
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Eb getting to play grandpa to Maggie and Thomas junior would be cool.
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It's not entirely "non-plot", but the scene that's been stuck in my head since Peace Talks was announced is Harry Dresden facing down He-Who-Walks-Before (or -Behind), like in Cold Days, with a side of the overwhelming despair in the Deeps in White Night -- but with wizards of the White Council watching. I'm pretty sure none of them have any idea that he's a Starborn, or what that means.
I'd also still love to see Shagnasty confined to Demonreach, even if it's just in passing.
Molly coming out to her parents as Winter Lady.
Molly, as Winter Lady, interacting publicly with the Merlin, who had publicly tried to have her killed.
And lots of Harry's particular version of being diplomatic with monsters...
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I'm pretty sure none of them have any idea that he's a Starborn, or what that means.
Some of the senior council almost definitely do. Martha's "you know what he was meant to be" to LtW in Summer Knight comes to mind. Plus Rashid, obviously.
For instance, I really, really want to see Harry soulgaze his daughter for the first time. Mostly because I assume that Harry is absolutely freaking terrified of doing that, both because he's afraid she hates him and/or because he's afraid she will hate him based on what she sees.
Given Jim's affinity for torturing the reader via Harry, I can't really see that playing out many ways other than her seeing his memory of sacrificing Susan. Although I kind of wonder if it wouldn't strike Harry harder for her to actually understand - showing him she grasps how nasty the world can be at times - than to hate him for it.
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We don't necessarily know what Martha's comment was referring to, as Harry has been meant to be a lot of things. Though that could be it.
Jim has said that the Council has a lot of info but hasn't yet put two and two together, so at large, they may or may not know until they actually think about it.
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We don't necessarily know what Martha's comment was referring to, as Harry has been meant to be a lot of things. Though that could be it.
Jim has said that the Council has a lot of info but hasn't yet put two and two together, so at large, they may or may not know until they actually think about it.
Yea, some people think Martha Liberty was saying that Harry was meant to be an enforcer for Justin, and I believe I read a post a long time ago, where someone suggested Harry was meant to be part of whatever scheme Margaret cooked up with Lord Raith and Duchess Arianna. That one a total WAG, because we don't have a clue of what that scheme was, just that Ebenezer was against it.
As far as non-plot moments; maybe we should call them minor plot moments, I'd like to see Harry tell Murphy about her father, though I don't think Harry could just blurt it out, it would have to be prompted by something Murphy said about her father that would push Harry to talk about meeting her dad. Though I suppose Harry would also have to mention that he met Detective Carmichael. That would be an interesting conversation to read.
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I don't know how non-plot relevant this is, but I really want to see Listens to Wind teaching Harry.
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I don't know how non-plot relevant this is, but I really want to see Listens to Wind teaching Harry.
Yes!
But it feels like the moment has passed. That was a huge, huge offer Harry got after Turn Coat, and I can't believe he never pursued it.
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Yes!
But it feels like the moment has passed. That was a huge, huge offer Harry got after Turn Coat, and I can't believe he never pursued it.
I used to think LTW could help Harry with the problems the Winter Knight's mantle creates for him, but I'm no longer certain that's the case. Harry was angry about the way he was mistreated by Justin, by the Council after Justin's death, by the continued harassment of Warden Morgan, finding out his mother was murdered by Lord Raith; and I bet part of the reason Harry has never talked about the possibility his father was also murdered; even though he has good reason to suspect that was the case, is that it could unleash a volcano of anger that Harry would have no way to control or vent at anyone or anything.
Now Harry's more immediate problem is the Winter Knight's mantel pushing violent aggressive images and feelings on him. However, a lot of those images and feelings aren't about deep seated anger issues, they're often territorial or sexual in nature, and they get ramped up to intoxicatingly dangerous levels by the Knight's mantel.
I'm not certain there would be a match between what LTW could teach Harry and what he is going through now. Plus, there are times when Harry needs to draw on the vicious power of Winter to get the job done. If Harry suddenly went Zen Master cool, not only could that get real boring real fast it might create problems of its own. The level of suppression Harry would need to completely master Winter Knight's mantel might slow him down when he really needed to let go and kiss ass.
If Harry gets some degree of training from LTW, I won't be surprised if most of it happens off screen. Harry has a conversation or two with LTW in Peace Talks. Maybe Harry gets a simple lesson or two, and then in the next book Harry tells us he has been practising meditation techniques LTW taught him after PT or had him study after PT.
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Rashid knows Harry's a Starborn so there's atleast one, I'd bet money Ebenezar knows as well.
As for non-plot moments Harry's father with a shotgun talk with Bob about Bonea is one moment I'm looking forward to. Particularly since it's all but been confirmed.
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Three Scenes that will be good to see
1) Harry introduces Molly to Ebenezzer
2) Harry, Murphy and the Cops at SI working together around Peace Talks. Harry is presumed terrorist/dead, Murphy is presumed crooked/crazy/crippled and Stalling/Rallings at SI seeing them again when things get really weird/dangerous.
3) The cops at SI seeing Butters as a Knight of the Cross for the first time -- knowing that this is Butters!
As you can tell, I think it has been too long since the SI cops have had a part in a Dresden book. :)
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Given Jim's affinity for torturing the reader via Harry, I can't really see that playing out many ways other than her seeing his memory of sacrificing Susan. Although I kind of wonder if it wouldn't strike Harry harder for her to actually understand - showing him she grasps how nasty the world can be at times - than to hate him for it.
I think she'll see Harry's guilt over it, and over a whole ton of other events over his life. I don't think that moment is the defining one for Harry; he's had too many other important ones during his life. He's not Helen Beckitt, you know? His soul isn't defined by killing Susan like hers was when her daughter was shot, but Harry's guilt over it (and over everything else that's happened when he failed, or thinks he failed) is. It's like when Harry soulgazed Molly; he didn't see her memory of using magic, he saw that she had potential. When Maggie soulgazes Harry, I think she'll see that he's done terrible things, but tries to do better things, too. Does that make sense?
If anything, Maggie is the one whose life-defining moment happened at Chichen Itza. So Harry might see himself killing Susan, because she's never been able to move past it (though apparently she doesn't remember it, trauma has a nasty habit of lingering despite blanks in your memory; she still has panic attacks, as I recall).
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I would like to see Harry's first contact with the White Council (especially with the Merlin) as Winter Knight. This might result in them asking why he has decided to become the WK and they will ask why he made such a big decicion for a mere clients child as he claimed. They will know the child must be special to him and why.
So I am also looking forward to seeing Maggie introduced to the Council.
And how her relationship with Harry and Ebenezar develops.
And I am curious how the Karrin-Harry relationship continues.
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Me again ;D
... And it would be fun, if Mab ordered Harry to contact the Merlin and beg him to teach him how to be a better Warden for Demonreach by improving bis magical abilitys. Because there may be knowledge passed down from Merlin to Merlin since the original one createt the wards on the Island. And only he can teach Harry. That would be horrible for both of them. Muahaha. ;D
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Lea taking Harry and Maggie to see Susan's grave
(She promises, at the end of Changes, to arrange Susan's burial and to take him to visit whenever he wishes.)
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And... I'd love to know how the Merlin told the tale of Chichen Itza. Did Harry get credit? Was he known to be dead when the final story was being told, so he was a martyr? Or was it all about members of the Senior Council leading a daring raid on the Red Court's stronghold?
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And... I'd love to know how the Merlin told the tale of Chichen Itza. Did Harry get credit? Was he known to be dead when the final story was being told, so he was a martyr? Or was it all about members of the Senior Council leading a daring raid on the Red Court's stronghold?
The Merlin was not at Chichen Itza. It was the Grey Council, headed by Eb or Vadderung. They were not under orders from the WC, and were acting on their own initiative. The Merlin would not have told any tale. Instead, he would have simply listened to confused news reports, and inferred what he could from what he knew. The wizards who participated would not have told anyone who they were, because this would expose them.
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Are you sure he wasn't?
The Merlin told Harry that he (the Merlin) and a bunch of the most powerful WC members were preparing a counterstrike, to end the Red Court permanently.
Eb told Harry to come to the meeting to meet the rest of the gang preparing for a counterstrike to end the Red Court permanently.
Later, Eb and Vadderung and a bunch of unidentified powerful spellcasters show up and launch that "counterstrike" in response to Harry's information.
It seems very, very likely that the Merlin's overwhelming counterstrike plans and Eb's overwhelming counterstrike plans are one and the same. It would be really odd if the Merlin were planning that strike without including Eb, and they'd otherwise be drawing on a bunch of the same wizards like Rashid and Luccio and getting in each other's way.
Heck, Eb's opening line is: "The Merlin is preparing his counterstrike, and we're trying to find out how much they already know about it."
And when Harry doesn't show up for the meeting -- because he's unconscious with a broken back -- Eb says: "There are people in the Grey Council who think you aren't to be trusted. They're very, very wary of you."
That seems like a pretty clear reference to the Merlin.
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And when Harry doesn't show up for the meeting -- because he's unconscious with a broken back -- Eb says: "There are people in the Grey Council who think you aren't to be trusted. They're very, very wary of you."
That seems like a pretty clear reference to the Merlin.
1. I generally agree that the odds are high for the WC/GC "counterstrike" as the same event; not a certainty, but very high.
2. I think /MANY/ wizards are "very, very wary" of Harry Dresden. I think the Merlin has already decided AGAINST Harry (and isn't a member of the GC, only the WC).
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Are you sure he wasn't?
The Merlin told Harry that he (the Merlin) and a bunch of the most powerful WC members were preparing a counterstrike, to end the Red Court permanently.
Eb told Harry to come to the meeting to meet the rest of the gang preparing for a counterstrike to end the Red Court permanently.
Later, Eb and Vadderung and a bunch of unidentified powerful spellcasters show up and launch that "counterstrike" in response to Harry's information.
It seems very, very likely that the Merlin's overwhelming counterstrike plans and Eb's overwhelming counterstrike plans are one and the same. It would be really odd if the Merlin were planning that strike without including Eb, and they'd otherwise be drawing on a bunch of the same wizards like Rashid and Luccio and getting in each other's way.
Heck, Eb's opening line is: "The Merlin is preparing his counterstrike, and we're trying to find out how much they already know about it."
And when Harry doesn't show up for the meeting -- because he's unconscious with a broken back -- Eb says: "There are people in the Grey Council who think you aren't to be trusted. They're very, very wary of you."
That seems like a pretty clear reference to the Merlin.
I can't imagine why you think that. The Merlin is a conservative, and very strongly opposed to division in the WC. The existence of the GC is a threat to his power and the unity of the WC. If he was aware of it, he would immediately denounce it as a conspiracy against him. Also, if the Merlin sanctioned the strike, there would be no need to use the GC at all, or to wear the hoods upon arrival.
They could simply have shown up as the WC with as many wardens as they could rustle up, plus their allies. The Merlin could have easily claimed credit for the entire venture to secure his political power, and to bolster the WCs power and influence.
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There is a reason governments have covert operations they keep secrets for decades. The Merlin might want to use the GC as such.
I don't agree with this theory, but it is plausible.
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You wouldn't hide the fact that you wiped out your enemy, that you were at war with, with your secret strike force. You use a secret covert ops organisation to gather intelligence and kill rivals that you're technically allied with, not to fight a declared war and then give credit to your political rivals.
The Merlin is portrayed as a bone-deep political creature. The idea that he would both fail to take credit, and allow a political loose cannon ne'er do well benefit violates who he is as a character.
There is a reason everyone knew about Seal Team 6 the moment Osama Bin Laden got killed.
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The Merlin may have known or suspected that destroying the RC would cause all sorts of chaos and be hiding from that. If acceptable levels of chaos had resulted, the Merlin would reveal that it was a Seal Team Six situation. If the levels of chaos were unacceptable, then it wasn't a WC sanctioned operation. Additionally, he was already working behind Cristos' back. One reason to use covert operators is because one is operating beyond his authority.
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Right, but the Merlin does have authority to do that kind of thing.
I just have yet to hear anything that gives me any good reason to think the Merlin would be on the GC, and it doesn't make sense to me that he would be. I suppose Jim will let us know eventually.
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I don't see it either. I'm just playing Devil's Advocate.
Does the Merlin have the authority to act unilaterally? We really don't know much about how the White Council actually works. We know a few things. It is a direct democracy with an elected committee (the Senior Council) that handles executive functions/administrative matters and can reserve decisions to itself in some situations (maybe all). The suffrage is universal among wizards. The Council governs mortals. The committee is a gerontocracy, but only by tradition (it isn't an actual rule). The members of the committee can vote by proxy. The committee chair (the Merlin) has the proxies by default if a member is absent, but hasn't selected a proxy. All members of the committee must vote before a decision has been reached. This gives each member a veto/filibuster like a power. We know the Seven Laws of Magic, but not any lesser rules governing the lives of wizards. We know the Council governs it's members' interactions with other supernatural groups, but not to what extent. We know that their are laws regarding treason. We don't know whether or not the Council has authority to govern other areas of the wizards life, and, if that authority exists, to what extent.
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Eb meeting Maggie and the baby of Thomas would be a nice moment.
Listen to Winds having a small service if Little Brother has died. It's been over 10 years. If he is alive, Little Brother meeting Mister and Mouse.
Toot and Lacuna dating.
Harry meeting the Erlking in another fun event for Summer.
Ivy reveals she has a facebook account.
Will introducing Harry to Game of Thrones.
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May be plot related, but I'm looking forward to Molly's arrival and watching the senior council, Merlin in particular, squirm when they realize they almost executed her and she knows it. :)
That and a "winter is coming" reference. ☺
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Lol 'winter is coming.
I know its been mentioned but Eb and Thomas.
Murphy and Harry dating banter.
Bonnea and exploration of her character and personality. Jim has said same rules as Bob, but Bob is Bob because Harry picked him up as a horny teenager. So don't know how that'll compare to Bonnea who theoretically has all the same information as Lash, who was a bit of a sex fiend herself.
Carlos Ramirez particularly him with Molly and his reaction.
White/Senior Council in General. Especially Rashid.
Kringle/Vadderung.
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Murphy soulgazing Harry, because that is just long overdue.
Langtry's reaction to the new Winter Lady.
And seeing Murphy becoming Maggie's favorite aunt.
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I can't imagine why you think that. The Merlin is a conservative, and very strongly opposed to division in the WC. The existence of the GC is a threat to his power and the unity of the WC. If he was aware of it, he would immediately denounce it as a conspiracy against him. Also, if the Merlin sanctioned the strike, there would be no need to use the GC at all, or to wear the hoods upon arrival.
They could simply have shown up as the WC with as many wardens as they could rustle up, plus their allies. The Merlin could have easily claimed credit for the entire venture to secure his political power, and to bolster the WCs power and influence.
I think the GC showed up to fight the Ramps, and so did the WC...
I think it looked an awful lot like "WC, mostly wardens, with a bunch of allies, and personal assets" (eg Eb claimed to be "owed a favor" by the Kenku/Tengu). Anyone/anything NOT on the WC was "just an ally of" the WC, or of a WC member.
Nobody REALLY knew the Ramps were going to be utterly destroyed -- showing up in hoods/disguises is a perfectly valid precaution against presumed retaliation, and the WC doesn't need to know every detail of every personal asset, do they?
So, it could still be a "joint" WC/GC operation, with the WC remaining ignorant of the GC's involvement (or even existence).
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Me again ;D
... And it would be fun, if Mab ordered Harry to contact the Merlin and beg him to teach him how to be a better Warden for Demonreach by improving bis magical abilitys. Because there may be knowledge passed down from Merlin to Merlin since the original one createt the wards on the Island. And only he can teach Harry. That would be horrible for both of them. Muahaha. ;D
Anything Harry needs to learn about the original Merlin, he can get through Eb. Eb has Merlin's journals.