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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on April 10, 2019, 08:11:44 PM
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So I was thinking about how he could have been murdered. From what I've read, Harry, and Malcolm moved around a lot. Wouldn't this mean that he wouldn't have much protection in the form of a barrier at home?
Didn't he die with a smile on his face?
I know we've discussed it at length before but thought maybe people have had new ideas on the subject.
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I've often thought that Malcolm died similarly to Shiro: he took Harry's place. From what, I have no idea. But I'm pretty sure he was protecting Harry.
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Didn't he die with a smile on his face?
That would suggest White Court vampire. It's quite plausible that Lord Raith ordered his death because he was pissed about Maggie's death curse and decided to kill her family as punishment. If Raith assumed Harry died in child birth, he could have just given orders to kill Malcolm Dresden without realizing there was also a child to kill. It also could have taken Raith awhile to discovery that it was Maggie that was the cause of his curse, which would explain why he didn't go after Malcolm immediately.
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My thought was that Malcolm died from a weak variation of the heart-bursting spell that was used in Book 1, that same heart-bursting spell seems to be a weak variation of the Bloodline spell from Book 12.
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Officially, it was deemed an aneurysm, so if that's anywhere close to the actual, physical cause of death, that eliminates the heart exploding spell.
My money is it's on an entropy curse, cast by Justin -- possibly with HWWB's help. He did die overnight, yes? How much you want to bet his time of death was about 13 minutes from midnight?
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That is why I thought weakened form of heart-popper. Instead of popping the pump, they popped a valve that leads to the heart.
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There's a possibility it was Leanansidhe according to WOJ whatever the godmother deal was, it's something Harry will duel Leanansidhe for. Could be Malcolms murder.
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There's a possibility it was Leanansidhe according to WOJ whatever the godmother deal was, it's something Harry will duel Leanansidhe for. Could be Malcolms murder.
I thought that had more to do with the deal his mom made. But I guess Malcolm could have gotten involved.
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That is why I thought weakened form of heart-popper. Instead of popping the pump, they popped a valve that leads to the heart.
I don't see how a weakened heart-exploding spell would have anything to do with the brain.
It's just two completely different methods, targeting two completely different areas of the body.
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Aneurysms are a problem in the circulatory system. They don't necessarily have anything to do with the brain. It actually makes a lot of sense that a weak heart-popping spell might look like a ruptured aortic aneurysm.
My problem with the theory is it is boring. We already had the story where an earlier event was practice for a larger version of the spell. Why do it again?
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There is also the whole mortals trying to rationalizing the supernatural thing. They may have just told Harry what his father died of without really knowing what killed him.
Also an aneurysm is a weak point in a blood vessel in the brain. An entropy curse could have killed him that way if he was already at risk for something like that.
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Aneurysms are a problem in the circulatory system. They don't necessarily have anything to do with the brain. It actually makes a lot of sense that a weak heart-popping spell might look like a ruptured aortic aneurysm.
My problem with the theory is it is boring. We already had the story where an earlier event was practice for a larger version of the spell. Why do it again?
Also, the heart exploding spell was not a "cause problems with the circulatory system" spell.
It did one thing: It rips your heart physically out of your chest. It grabs the big hunk of pumping muscle in your chest, specifically and exclusively, and makes it leap out of your chest.
Busting a blood vessel in a totally different part of the body is not the same thing. I'm pretty certain that Harry says his dad died of a brain aneurysm.
It's like you have one guy who was shot with a rifle that ruptured his lung, and another who choked to death, and concluding the one who choked was killed by a weaker version of the rifle because they both died because they couldn't breathe.
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Correct, it was a brain aneurysm.
I always thought the smile was because he was thinking of, or possibly even seeing, Maggie when he died. Maybe she gave him the "you're not alone on the other side" speech he gave Harry.
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Also, the heart exploding spell was not a "cause problems with the circulatory system" spell.
It did one thing: It rips your heart physically out of your chest. It grabs the big hunk of pumping muscle in your chest, specifically and exclusively, and makes it leap out of your chest.
Busting a blood vessel in a totally different part of the body is not the same thing. I'm pretty certain that Harry says his dad died of a brain aneurysm.
It's like you have one guy who was shot with a rifle that ruptured his lung, and another who choked to death, and concluding the one who choked was killed by a weaker version of the rifle because they both died because they couldn't breathe.
The spell was completed by stabbing a living rabbit in the heart (and probably scooping out the heart). In theory the wizard could have done something else to cause a person to die that would resemble an aneurysm... I don't know what it is but who knows. An icepick stabbing into the animals brain? A puncture mark should show up, but the heart exploding spell made it look like the explosion happened from the inside, and not that something had stabbed into the chest, and ripped the heart out, so maybe the damage to the brain could be done without showing the puncture mark.
Correct, it was a brain aneurysm.
I always thought the smile was because he was thinking of, or possibly even seeing, Maggie when he died. Maybe she gave him the "you're not alone on the other side" speech he gave Harry.
I like that! That does sound like something that could have happened.
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Also, the heart exploding spell was not a "cause problems with the circulatory system" spell.
It did one thing: It rips your heart physically out of your chest. It grabs the big hunk of pumping muscle in your chest, specifically and exclusively, and makes it leap out of your chest.
Busting a blood vessel in a totally different part of the body is not the same thing. I'm pretty certain that Harry says his dad died of a brain aneurysm.
It's like you have one guy who was shot with a rifle that ruptured his lung, and another who choked to death, and concluding the one who choked was killed by a weaker version of the rifle because they both died because they couldn't breathe.
Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of it as a spell that super-pumps the heart so suddenly it explodes. A lesser version of such a spell might cause the heart to work hard enough to rupture an aneurysm but not to explode the heart. However, such a caffeine-overload spell doesn't really explain the hole in the chest. It is a heart-ripping spell, not a heart-popping spell.
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The spell was completed by stabbing a living rabbit in the heart (and probably scooping out the heart).
Given it was a sharpened spoon, probably. Textbook voodoo doll stuff.
In theory the wizard could have done something else to cause a person to die that would resemble an aneurysm... I don't know what it is but who knows.
Certainly -- and it would be a different spell.
An icepick stabbing into the animals brain? A puncture mark should show up, but the heart exploding spell made it look like the explosion happened from the inside, and not that something had stabbed into the chest, and ripped the heart out, so maybe the damage to the brain could be done without showing the puncture mark.
I think the whole chest exploding does more to hide any potential puncture marks than anything else.
That said, that's why I like the entropy curse for this -- it doesn't seem to require the voodoo aspect, it just nudges probability until you die in whatever way is situationally appropriate.
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That said, that's why I like the entropy curse for this -- it doesn't seem to require the voodoo aspect, it just nudges probability until you die in whatever way is situationally appropriate.
That's true, and if correct it means that Lord Raith (or if someone else murdered Maggie) is responsible for Malcolm's death.
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That's true, and if correct it means that Lord Raith (or if someone else murdered Maggie) is responsible for Malcolm's death.
Not necessarily. Other people can use entropy curses.
My personal theory is that it was Nicodemus. He knew Margaret, and knew about both her children, so he might have had reason to arrange something (especially if he had plans for a starborn--he almost certainly finds it easier to manipulate people into working for him if they didn't have happy and loving childhoods).
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Not necessarily. Other people can use entropy curses.
Yup. Consider that Lord Raith's entropy curse came from He Who Walks Behind.
And we know that Justin also associated with HWWB.
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Yup. Consider that Lord Raith's entropy curse came from He Who Walks Behind.
And we know that Justin also associated with HWWB.
It would be interesting if Justin offed Malcolm to get his hands on a Starborn. Yet I wonder why Justin waited so long to adopt Harry afterward; there's like a six or seven year gap where Harry's living in an orphanage.
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It would be interesting if Justin offed Malcolm to get his hands on a Starborn. Yet I wonder why Justin waited so long to adopt Harry afterward; there's like a six or seven year gap where Harry's living in an orphanage.
I have a theory on that that's two-fold.
1. Justin might have suspected, but couldn't have known, that Harry had inherited Maggie's magical talent. It'd make sense to wait until it manifests before making the commitment to grabbing him.
2. Leaving Harry in The System for several years means that Harry is starved for familial and paternal figures. Look at the way Young Harry's memories gush over the slightest bit of praise that Justin gives him.
So waiting serves two purposes, first in making sure that Justin is actually getting a magically-able Harry, and second, in priming Harry to be that much more receptive to Justin's "rescuing."
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Okay, I can buy that.
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There's a possibility it was Leanansidhe according to WOJ whatever the godmother deal was, it's something Harry will duel Leanansidhe for. Could be Malcolms murder.
There is more than one plausible explanation to this WOJ that involves the Leanansidhe. One is that Lea was aware that Malcolm was going to be murdered but did nothing to interfere with the crime because protecting Malcolm wasn't part of the deal she made with Margaret. Had she determined that protecting Malcolm was necessary to protect Harry she would have done so.
Another, more sinister explanation, is that Lea herself is the murderer. Perhaps part of deal Margaret made with Lea was to protect Harry from supernatural threats. Being a practical member of the Winter Court, Lea would have realized that the best way to protect Harry was to see that he could eventually protect himself, at least from the most obvious threats. In order to achieve this goal, Harry would need someone who could teach him how to use his magic. Justin DuMorne would fulfill this role until the time when Lea would teach Harry to defend himself from Justin.
Under this scenario it's likely that Lea made a side deal with Justin to remove Malcolm. Lea didn't have any animosity towards Malcolm and because of her respect for Margaret she made Malcolm's death as peaceful as possible.
By the way, even under the first scenario where Lea isn't the killer, just an impassive viewer; Lea may have decided that should Harry develop magical ability, Justin would be be a good teacher. Again being a practical sidhe, this decision saved Lea from the type of effort she had to put in to train Molly. The fact that Harry is institutionalized during his childhood in either scenario was irrelevant to Lea. in her eyes it may have helped protect Harry from more mundane threats he might have faced as he moved from place to place with his father.
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Another, more sinister explanation, is that Lea herself is the murderer. Perhaps part of deal Margaret made with Lea was to protect Harry from supernatural threats. Being a practical member of the Winter Court, Lea would have realized that the best way to protect Harry was to see that he could eventually protect himself, at least from the most obvious threats. In order to achieve this goal, Harry would need someone who could teach him how to use his magic. Justin DuMorne would fulfill this role until the time when Lea would teach Harry to defend himself from Justin.
This makes a scary amount of sense. I really hope that this ends up being true now.
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I absolutely love this.
Justin does train Harry in exactly the style Lea seems to prefer when training molly.
If Lea decided that Malcolm staying alive would keep Harry from learning magic effectively, he fits all the criteria she would look for.
All it takes is overbroad wording on how Lea should protect harry from ANY threats from Maggie Sr
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I would say that it is definitely likely that Malcolm was murdered - this is why he is able to interact with Harry in his dreams occasionally. In DB, Malcolm specifically says that he is able to speak to Harry because “others have crossed the line”.
To me this says that Malcolm was likely killed by someone evil (like Denarian) - the smile on his face is reminiscent of Shiro. And he likely knows Uriel & maybe even works for him.
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There is more than one plausible explanation to this WOJ that involves the Leanansidhe. One is that Lea was aware that Malcolm was going to be murdered but did nothing to interfere with the crime because protecting Malcolm wasn't part of the deal she made with Margaret. Had she determined that protecting Malcolm was necessary to protect Harry she would have done so.
Another, more sinister explanation, is that Lea herself is the murderer. Perhaps part of deal Margaret made with Lea was to protect Harry from supernatural threats. Being a practical member of the Winter Court, Lea would have realized that the best way to protect Harry was to see that he could eventually protect himself, at least from the most obvious threats. In order to achieve this goal, Harry would need someone who could teach him how to use his magic. Justin DuMorne would fulfill this role until the time when Lea would teach Harry to defend himself from Justin.
Under this scenario it's likely that Lea made a side deal with Justin to remove Malcolm. Lea didn't have any animosity towards Malcolm and because of her respect for Margaret she made Malcolm's death as peaceful as possible.
By the way, even under the first scenario where Lea isn't the killer, just an impassive viewer; Lea may have decided that should Harry develop magical ability, Justin would be be a good teacher. Again being a practical sidhe, this decision saved Lea from the type of effort she had to put in to train Molly. The fact that Harry is institutionalized during his childhood in either scenario was irrelevant to Lea. in her eyes it may have helped protect Harry from more mundane threats he might have faced as he moved from place to place with his father.
Damn, it appears I stole your idea in another thread. My apologies.
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@KurtinStGeorge & morriswalters
My only issue with this scenario is why Lea would view Justin as the right person to teach Harry? He was never known as a teacher - no other former apprentices are mentioned (aside from Elaine). Additionally there is strong evidence that he was walking on the left-hand path - witnessed by his keeping Bob & likely summoning HWWB to track Harry after his thralling attempt fails. Sure, Lea could’ve been wrong, but I believe Harry says in GS that Lea had always kept an eye over him even when he was younger, so wouldn’t she be keeping a very close eye on what all Justin is upto?
I think it much more likely that Justin & Simon (so Cowl) got some knowledge (perhaps because he & Maggie were ‘friendly’ or through a demon like Chauncey) that there were 2 Starborns in mundane orphanages around the country ripe for the plucking. His goal seems to have been to round them up, train them, emotionally manipulate them & then enthrall them into his personal service.
I’m also a little unsure of why Lea thinks Harry can go back & defeat Justin as a 16 year old.
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Lea seems to endorse "tough love" and, maybe, she felt the best way to fulfill her duties was to hone him into a weapon.
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@KurtinStGeorge & morriswalters
My only issue with this scenario is why Lea would view Justin as the right person to teach Harry? He was never known as a teacher - no other former apprentices are mentioned (aside from Elaine). Additionally there is strong evidence that he was walking on the left-hand path - witnessed by his keeping Bob & likely summoning HWWB to track Harry after his thralling attempt fails. Sure, Lea could’ve been wrong, but I believe Harry says in GS that Lea had always kept an eye over him even when he was younger, so wouldn’t she be keeping a very close eye on what all Justin is upto?
I think it much more likely that Justin & Simon (so Cowl) got some knowledge (perhaps because he & Maggie were ‘friendly’ or through a demon like Chauncey) that there were 2 Starborns in mundane orphanages around the country ripe for the plucking. His goal seems to have been to round them up, train them, emotionally manipulate them & then enthrall them into his personal service.
I’m also a little unsure of why Lea thinks Harry can go back & defeat Justin as a 16 year old.
To go to town on this question you need details we don't have.
My current WAG is that Maggie was messing with the outsiders in some fashion.
But,
Why did Justin need two bodyguards, and why a boy and girl?
We know she was involved in some kind of scheme as related by EB.
It's implied but never stated that she might have been partially enthralled.
Raith may have been trying to use her as a broodmare for a Star Born, and this may have been her scheme as devised by Raith and why Eb said he didn't want any part of it and neither should she.
This last is at least plausible considered in the light of Goodman Grey's comment that Maggie was a piece of work.
In addition when Harry talks to her in the Library, she says something I consider strange."I made sure that his father would endure a fitting punishment for what he did to us."
"You and Thomas?"
"And you, Harry.
I know what he did to Thomas, and of course he killed her. But what did he do to Harry?
And considering she was on the run, how did she meet Malcolm?
And in some WOJ, why did Butcher drop the fact that she went to Washington DC while she was pregnant?
And finally in Blood Rites he mentions that when he tries to throw magic at Raith that it feels like Mordite where Raith is standing. Which seems to imply that Raitht's protection is a product of Outsider magic.Not just empty air and drifting dust, but nothing. A cold and somehow hungry emptiness that filled the space where he should have been. I'd felt something like it before, when I'd been near a mote of one of the deadliest substances that any world of flesh or spirit had ever known.
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Lea seems to endorse "tough love" and, maybe, she felt the best way to fulfill her duties was to hone him into a weapon.
That seems likely as her motivation, regardless of what she actually did, as she defined education as something like "passing power from one generation to the next."
And in some WOJ, why did Butcher drop the fact that she went to Washington DC while she was pregnant?
I think it's that Malcolm showed Harry a picture of the two of them at the Lincoln Memorial while she was pregnant. I think it's in one of the novels. If someone knows which novel or if I'm just wrong, let us know.
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@KurtinStGeorge & morriswalters
My only issue with this scenario is why Lea would view Justin as the right person to teach Harry? He was never known as a teacher - no other former apprentices are mentioned (aside from Elaine). Additionally there is strong evidence that he was walking on the left-hand path - witnessed by his keeping Bob & likely summoning HWWB to track Harry after his thralling attempt fails. Sure, Lea could’ve been wrong, but I believe Harry says in GS that Lea had always kept an eye over him even when he was younger, so wouldn’t she be keeping a very close eye on what all Justin is upto?
I think it much more likely that Justin & Simon (so Cowl) got some knowledge (perhaps because he & Maggie were ‘friendly’ or through a demon like Chauncey) that there were 2 Starborns in mundane orphanages around the country ripe for the plucking. His goal seems to have been to round them up, train them, emotionally manipulate them & then enthrall them into his personal service.
I’m also a little unsure of why Lea thinks Harry can go back & defeat Justin as a 16 year old.
It doesn't matter if Justin had or hadn't had an apprentice before. He was a wizard who both had the knowledge and the motivation to teach Harry to use his magic. Also, it's probably not a situation where Lea had several candidates to choose from.
If Lea was a passive observer and not the murderer, at some point in time she became aware of Justin's plans and made a decision not to intervene. If Lea is the killer then she met with Justin to make a deal with him. In either scenario Lea already knew Justin or knew something about him from before this time because Justin had been a one time associate of Maggie Sr. Also, remember the conversation Lea had with Harry about Justin in Ghost Story? Lea didn't know the specifics of how Harry first met and defeated HWWB, but she knew Justin DuMorne and had very specific opinions about him. This indicates Lea had enough knowledge about Justin to make a reasoned decision about his fitness to teach Harry, and probably enough knowledge to guess doing so would give Lea an opportunity to take complete control of Harry in the future.
Your last statement is a very astute. It is odd that Lea was confident that an inexperienced 16 year old Harry could defeat his teacher. Then again, we really don't know how it all went down. Could Lea have done something to hamstring Justin or even just distract him at the right moment? I'm going to have to stick a pin in that idea for now. I need to think about it some more, but I do have one thought to add. Lea wanted to know about Harry's fight with HWWB, but she didn't ask about Harry's fight with Justin. I'll bet she saw the battle from start to finish.
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@KurtinStGeorge
Sure, maybe Lea passively condones Justin’s behavior if she knows about it but it’s pretty clear that Justin was running his own game - whether it was against Outsiders is another issue entirely. Perhaps it was & that’s why Lea trusted him enough to raise Harry?
Perhaps Lea felt like 16 year old Harry could take on Justin because he had just vanquished an Outsider - WoJ is that she basically just gave him confidence? Unlikely, but I think Lea was herself curious about how Harry was able to achieve this which is why she specifically asked about this - perhaps she wanted to see the Starborn in action?
I do like the idea that Lea interfered in the duel to allow Harry to win - explaining the lack of a death curse from Justin (surprised him maybe?) - and that’s why she’s not too curious about that fight. It would also make sense in a Sidhe way that she then sends Elaine to Summer to balance out the fact that Winter has its own designs for the Starborn Harry.