ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DFRPG => Topic started by: nadia.skylark on April 02, 2019, 05:30:20 PM
-
How would you write up a stunt to reflect the pain-blocking trick Lash taught Harry in Dead Beat? Would it clear a consequence? Prevent aspects associated with consequences from being invoked against him? Give him armor against pain? Temporary extra physical stress boxes?
I'm not sure how to model it rules-wise.
-
Something along the lines of the Unshakable stunt (YS 151) might work. Or just No Pain No Gain (YS 152). Or the Feel No Pain (https://dfrpg-resources.paranetonline.com/index.php?title=Feel_No_Pain) custom power.
Really, you have any number of options for representing an ability to fight through or ignore suffering.
-
Feel No Pain seems perfect!
How much of a discount, if any, would you give it for needing to take an action to establish it as functional before it starts working?
-
1 Refresh.
That's just gut instinct, but most custom power balance is just gut instinct.
-
So here's what I've written up:
[-2] A Block Against Pain: You have the ability to set up a block against pain. You do this by rolling your discipline skill, and unlike most blocks, this one stays up until someone takes it down. While this block is up, you automatically succeed on any roll meant to ignore or endure your own suffering, and nobody gets a free tag for inflicting a physical consequence on you. In addition, people have to exceed the value of the block in order to inflict physical stress on you. However, any consequences you have while this block is up heal as if they were one step more severe.
What do you think? It feels true to what we see in the books, but I'm not sure if it works mechanically.
-
I don't think that's a good idea. If you can pump that one Discipline roll into the stratosphere, you become more or less invincible. Not a particularly fun play pattern.
-
I don't think that's a good idea. If you can pump that one Discipline roll into the stratosphere, you become more or less invincible. Not a particularly fun play pattern.
Good point. Would it work better if the block could be used as armor against physical stress? That would cut the value in half, right?
-
That would actually be stronger. Armour is generally considered twice as valuable as a block. And it would be particularly strong in this case, since there'd be no way to remove it.
In general, I don't think an indefinite-duration protective roll is gonna work well.
-
That would actually be stronger. Armour is generally considered twice as valuable as a block. And it would be particularly strong in this case, since there'd be no way to remove it.
Okay, I think I've forgotten how armor and blocks work. Could you remind me? I'd thought that if you exceed the value with shifts, you can put those shifts toward destroying the armor/block, and the difference between the two was just that using something as armor meant that you cut the shifts in half. But from what you're saying, I have that wrong.
-
A block opposes actions in general. If people want to do anything that the block affects, they need to beat the block's strength. It doesn't stack with defense rolls, you have to pick one or the other.
Armour is only for attacks. It reduces the stress inflicted by successful attacks, essentially reducing the weapon rating.
If an accuracy 5, weapon 5 attack is thrown at a target with a 4-shift block, a defense roll of 3, and armour 2, the attack hits by a margin of 1 and inflicts 4 stress.
Normally blocks and armour are not damaged by attacks that exceed them, but magical shields are an exception. If the 4-shift block in the above example was from an evocation, it would collapse after the attack. Armour from evocations does not have that problem, but you only get half as much of it from a given spell.
Your Story 252 is probably the page you want here.
-
A block opposes actions in general. If people want to do anything that the block affects, they need to beat the block's strength. It doesn't stack with defense rolls, you have to pick one or the other.
Armour is only for attacks. It reduces the stress inflicted by successful attacks, essentially reducing the weapon rating.
If an accuracy 5, weapon 5 attack is thrown at a target with a 4-shift block, a defense roll of 3, and armour 2, the attack hits by a margin of 1 and inflicts 4 stress.
Normally blocks and armour are not damaged by attacks that exceed them, but magical shields are an exception. If the 4-shift block in the above example was from an evocation, it would collapse after the attack. Armour from evocations does not have that problem, but you only get half as much of it from a given spell.
Ah, thanks. What I want is armor equal to half the value of the discipline roll, like evocation armor except that if you exceed the value of the armor you can choose to use some of your excess shifts to erode the armor.
Would it work better if there was a time limit on how long you can keep it up? There doesn't seem to be in the books, but I can see where I might need to add one. In the books the reason it isn't much used is that Harry thinks not feeling pain is dangerous, but that probably doesn't translate to RPG rules that well.
-
A time limit would help, but I'm really not keen on the approach as a whole. Even if you find a way around the inherent balance problems, it's pretty weird for pain immunity to provide such enormous durability. Armour 3 is Mythic Toughness level, after all.
-
I'm trying to come up with a way to represent being able to disregard damage. After all, the minor damage represented by stress really shouldn't effect you that much if you're not feeling pain, and the books seem to show this technique allowing Harry to take a bunch more damage than usual without being incapacitated--not because he isn't being hurt, but because his body isn't registering "being hurt" as a reason to stop operating at 100% capacity. That's why I combined the armor with making all damage you do take heal slower.
Would it work better to give extra stress boxes equal to half your discipline roll?
-
That has many of the same problems.
The game already has, like, half a dozen ways to handle this kind of thing. Why not use one of them?
-
The game already has, like, half a dozen ways to handle this kind of thing. Why not use one of them?
Because I'm not sure what they are. What I'm trying to do is find a way to reflect mechanically the ability to keep going through more damage than usual, but then crash harder afterwards. I have suggested armor + making consequences and stress heal slower, and extra stress boxes + making consequences heal slower. I suppose adding extra consequences might work?
-
Alright, here's a list of existing approaches. Off the top of my head, so probably not complete.
1. A character Aspect.
2. A temporary Aspect, created through a spell or a mundane maneuver.
3. Extra consequences from a stunt like No Pain No Gain.
4. Less harmful consequences from a stunt like Unshakable.
5. The Feel No Pain custom Power.
6. A stunt letting you use Conviction or Discipline for your physical stress track.
7. Inhuman Toughness with an appropriate Catch.
-
1. A character Aspect.
2. A temporary Aspect, created through a spell or a mundane maneuver.
I'm trying to come up with something that doesn't require you to spend a load of fate points, so aspects are out.
3. Extra consequences from a stunt like No Pain No Gain.
Good idea. What kind of extra consequences (as in mild/moderate/severe, and should there be multiples)
4. Less harmful consequences from a stunt like Unshakable.
I don't think I've seen this stunt. Would you be able to either post it here or direct me to where I can find it?
5. The Feel No Pain custom Power.
This power explicitly says you "suffer no stress from attacks based on pain." This seemed overpowered to me, since most of the damage that I understand stress to represent (bruises, minor cuts) would, in my opinion, qualify as attacks based on pain. After all, if they're not hurting, they rarely interfere with your actions. Also, what "attacks based on pain" means is fairly unclear to me. I tend to think of it as "inflicting damage that only affects you if it hurts" but I'm not confident about that.
It also offers an additional minor physical consequence, which is a good idea.
6. A stunt letting you use Conviction or Discipline for your physical stress track.
This would be a cool idea, but it's not what this power is narratively. This seems more like what the Winter Knight mantle allows you to do.
7. Inhuman Toughness with an appropriate Catch.
It really specifically isn't this. Every time Harry uses it, he says that it puts him at risk, because not feeling pain is dangerous. Inhuman toughness isn't this at all.
-
I'm trying to come up with something that doesn't require you to spend a load of fate points, so aspects are out.
You don't need FP to use maneuvers.
Good idea. What kind of extra consequences (as in mild/moderate/severe, and should there be multiples)
One mild for anything you want, or two with some kind of usage limitation.
I don't think I've seen this stunt. Would you be able to either post it here or direct me to where I can find it?
Your Story page 151.
This power explicitly says you "suffer no stress from attacks based on pain." This seemed overpowered to me, since most of the damage that I understand stress to represent (bruises, minor cuts) would, in my opinion, qualify as attacks based on pain. After all, if they're not hurting, they rarely interfere with your actions. Also, what "attacks based on pain" means is fairly unclear to me. I tend to think of it as "inflicting damage that only affects you if it hurts" but I'm not confident about that.
Attacks based on pain refers to magical pain infliction, mental attacks based on torture, and the like. A punch isn't an attack based on pain even if pain is the main thing it ends up inflicting.
This would be a cool idea, but it's not what this power is narratively. This seems more like what the Winter Knight mantle allows you to do.
Not sure I see the difference.
It really specifically isn't this. Every time Harry uses it, he says that it puts him at risk, because not feeling pain is dangerous. Inhuman toughness isn't this at all.
That's mostly just narration, and maybe the occasional Compel. The Catch can cover anything else that needs covering.
-
You don't need FP to use maneuvers.
You do if you want to invoke an aspect more than once.
One mild for anything you want, or two with some kind of usage limitation.
What counts as a usage limitation? Does a time limit for when you can use them count?
Your Story page 151.
Thanks! I'm doing something similar by saying that you can't have physical consequences invoked against you, I think.
Attacks based on pain refers to magical pain infliction, mental attacks based on torture, and the like. A punch isn't an attack based on pain even if pain is the main thing it ends up inflicting.
Thanks.
Probably won't be using this, though, since the pain-block is specifically something that can be broken if you hurt the person enough.
Not sure I see the difference.
Narratively, it reads completely different. Mechanically, the pain-block is supposed to help people even when they have high endurance, and swapping one high skill for another doesn't help much.
That's mostly just narration, and maybe the occasional Compel. The Catch can cover anything else that needs covering.
I guess. I was trying to replicate the effect by making physical stress and consequences heal slower if you used the pain-block.
-
You do if you want to invoke an aspect more than once.
Aspects are true even when they're not invoked, though. I don't think it's a problem if the pain-block only provides a mechanical bonus once per use.
What counts as a usage limitation? Does a time limit for when you can use them count?
I think just about anything can work. The actual rules are on Your Story page 148 if you'd prefer to consult them directly.
-
Here's the new version:
[-2] A Block Against Pain: You have mental discipline to block out pain, preventing it from effecting you. You do this by rolling your discipline skill, and gain the following effects for a number of scenes equal to half your roll (rounded up): You automatically succeed on any roll meant to ignore or endure your own suffering, and nobody gets a free tag for inflicting a physical consequence on you. In addition, you gain an additional two mild physical consequences. However, any consequences you have while this block is up heal as if they were one step more severe.
-
2 Refresh and reverse Recovery in exchange for immunity to pain, untaggable consequences, and no two milds seems fair. At least at a glance.
I don't think the Discipline roll is doing anything good, though. Since there's no cost to roll, it doesn't really matter how long it lasts; you can always just put it up again when it ends.
-
In keeping with the description in the novels (dangerous to use, easy to over-use) what about the idea of /unlimited/ Mild Physical Consequences?
You can shunt all the ordinary pains off until you get overwhelmed (or have time to deal with them).
The danger comes if you get hit with enough pain to overwhelm the Stunt... and then all of it comes home to roost at once. If you've been relying on it -- have absorbed too many Consequences -- you probably go straight to Taken Out.
If you come out of the conflict still standing, you go to the doctor and get stitched up, bones set, whatever, go home and take your heavy-duty painkillers, and go to bed... the Stunt wears off overnight, you wake up facing all the pain... Just not when you needed to be up & fighting.
-
In keeping with the description in the novels (dangerous to use, easy to over-use) what about the idea of /unlimited/ Mild Physical Consequences?
You can shunt all the ordinary pains off until you get overwhelmed (or have time to deal with them).
The danger comes if you get hit with enough pain to overwhelm the Stunt... and then all of it comes home to roost at once. If you've been relying on it -- have absorbed too many Consequences -- you probably go straight to Taken Out.
If you come out of the conflict still standing, you go to the doctor and get stitched up, bones set, whatever, go home and take your heavy-duty painkillers, and go to bed... the Stunt wears off overnight, you wake up facing all the pain... Just not when you needed to be up & fighting.
This would be a great idea! Do you have any ideas for how to represent "enough pain to overwhelm the stunt"? Right now there's nothing to overwhelm; you just get a bunch of effects.
-
This would be a great idea! Do you have any ideas for how to represent "enough pain to overwhelm the stunt"? Right now there's nothing to overwhelm; you just get a bunch of effects.
Off the top of my head, it'd be "enough boxes of damage in 1 hit to fill the track, if you didn't shuffle them off to Consequences." Any hit that big overwhelms the stunt, and then You're In Trouble.
No idea how to cost it out in Refresh, though! :( Sorry!
-
Unlimited consequences is basically invincibility, so that could very easily be broken. But of course it depends on the limitations, and the bypass methods.
Limiting the unlimited milds to one per attack would help keep the thing in check. At that point it's basically just armour 2 that gives you an aspect and your opponent a tag. Not very scary.
-
Unlimited consequences is basically invincibility, so that could very easily be broken. But of course it depends on the limitations, and the bypass methods.
Limiting the unlimited milds to one per attack would help keep the thing in check. At that point it's basically just armour 2 that gives you an aspect and your opponent a tag. Not very scary.
What about two mild, two moderate, and two severe consequences (and this power specifically stops your opponent from getting tags on them, but on the other hand they heal slower)? And if your opponent hits you with an attack that's higher than your initial discipline roll, they can choose to use the shifts that go over it to erode your ability to use this power (when it is reduced to zero, it is disabled, and your opponent gets a tag on all your consequences) instead of inflicting them as damage to you?
-
I don't know what you mean by "erode your ability to use this Power".
And honestly, the whole things sounds overcomplicated and fiddly.
-
I don't know what you mean by "erode your ability to use this Power".
I was thinking something sort of like a contest, only with just one person. If you roll discipline for +6, then your opponent(s) have to devote 6 stress to breaking down the pain-block, at which point you lose access to the power's benefits, and need a round of quiet focus to put it back up (during which any attack against you is considered an ambush, similar to if you're trying to cast a thaumaturgy spell in the middle of a fight).
And honestly, the whole things sounds overcomplicated and fiddly.
Yeah, but after having devoted this much time to it, I want to get it right.
-
If you want to do it right, you should probably do it simply. Complexity is generally bad.