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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: nadia.skylark on April 01, 2019, 01:17:01 PM
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Would Harry have called Lasciel's coin to keep her (or Michael) safe?
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No. Harry's proven several times that he would rather die than succumb to that power, and especially in Proven Guilty. Besides, if Dresden suddenly had to fight all the assembled White Council at the end of Proven Guilty, I'm not sure that even Lasciel would have been able to save anyone. Presumably, Lash knows this, which is why she doesn't use it as an opportunity.
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If he had, I doubt it would have worked.
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No. Harry's proven several times that he would rather die than succumb to that power, and especially in Proven Guilty.
He'd rather die, yes. But would he rather allow innocents to die? That's why he started working with Lasciel's shadow in the first place, after all--it was the only way to save innocent lives.
Besides, if Dresden suddenly had to fight all the assembled White Council at the end of Proven Guilty, I'm not sure that even Lasciel would have been able to save anyone.
If he had, I doubt it would have worked.
I don't believe it would be enough to let him win, no. But it might have been enough to, for example, shield him and Molly well enough to open a Way to the Nevernever and make a run for it, or create illusions of him and Molly good enough to fool the assembled wizards, veil them, and sneak out the back.
Presumably, Lash knows this, which is why she doesn't use it as an opportunity.
Personally, I think that Lash doesn't make that offer here because she's not particularly well integrated into the story in this book. Proven Guilty was supposed to be before Dead Beat, after all, and in my opinion the Lash storyline shows it. (Except for the end conversation with Michael. That was excellent.)
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No. Let's presume Harry could be persuaded that Lasciel's knowledge would enable him to save Molly and escape. What is life like after that? He's on the run from the White Council with an untrained apprentice. He would recognize is only chance of surviving long term would be to sign up with the Denarians. That means he would be joining the bad guys and bringing Molly over to the bad guys. He would not sacrifice Molly's soul in order to save her life.
The difference in Changes is that Maggie was being held by bad guys. Thus, Maggie wouldn't have to spend her life running from the good guys and wouldn't have to turn evil to stay alive. For Dresden, innocents' souls > innocents' lives > his soul > his life.
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No. Let's presume Harry could be persuaded that Lasciel's knowledge would enable him to save Molly and escape. What is life like after that? He's on the run from the White Council with an untrained apprentice. He would recognize is only chance of surviving long term would be to sign up with the Denarians. That means he would be joining the bad guys and bringing Molly over to the bad guys. He would not sacrifice Molly's soul in order to save her life.
He could also get out of there, then give Molly to Father Forthill/Michael to hide.
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He could also get out of there, then give Molly to Father Forthill/Michael to hide.
And leave an untrained magically active kid to learn on her own? Harry is wise enough to know that if she doesn't get proper training she is likely to become corrupted by the power - especially given that she had already started down a particular road that is paved with good intentions. Molly's only good chance was to be trained by Harry, Eb, or someone similar.
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He'd rather die, yes. But would he rather allow innocents to die? That's why he started working with Lasciel's shadow in the first place, after all--it was the only way to save innocent lives.
Yes. That's exactly why Harry doesn't take up the coin when Lash offers it before running Little Chicago. She poses the same exact dilemma you're doing now, and Harry refuses.
Personally, I think that Lash doesn't make that offer here because she's not particularly well integrated into the story in this book. Proven Guilty was supposed to be before Dead Beat, after all, and in my opinion the Lash storyline shows it. (Except for the end conversation with Michael. That was excellent.)
This is poor reasoning. You're saying that Jim left a huge gaping hole in his story because he was originally planning on a different order, and just didn't make the continuity work out. No. He clearly established why Harry wasn't using Lash to do any death-defying feats.
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And leave an untrained magically active kid to learn on her own? Harry is wise enough to know that if she doesn't get proper training she is likely to become corrupted by the power - especially given that she had already started down a particular road that is paved with good intentions. Molly's only good chance was to be trained by Harry, Eb, or someone similar.
Well, I agree it's not ideal, but neither is Molly having her head cut off.
Yes. That's exactly why Harry doesn't take up the coin when Lash offers it before running Little Chicago. She poses the same exact dilemma you're doing now, and Harry refuses.
Fair enough. I usually try to pretend that this scene doesn't exist, because it feels so OoC for Lash.
This is poor reasoning. You're saying that Jim left a huge gaping hole in his story because he was originally planning on a different order, and just didn't make the continuity work out. No. He clearly established why Harry wasn't using Lash to do any death-defying feats.
No, I'm saying that Jim left out a couple of sentences wherein Lash offers to help if needed and Harry refuses, but is left uneasy, wondering what he would do if the Council refused to listen. If he actually took up the coin, it would have been in the middle of the pitched battle that didn't happen. Lash would have done her slowing-down-subjective-time trick and hit Harry over the head with the fact that Molly was going to die, he promised he would do everything he could to save her, what was it going to do to Michael to come back and find his daughter dead, was Harry really going to fail him, etc. And it might not have worked, but it also might have, I think.
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Fair enough. I usually try to pretend that this scene doesn't exist, because it feels so OoC for Lash.
Why?
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Why?
It's just so sloppy. I mean, she lives inside his head. She must know that pain is not enough to stop him, and that he'd rather die than abandon an innocent person in danger.
What she ought to have done, if she was acting in a manner consistent with her characterization in other places, is point out the problem with using Molly's baby hair, and optionally offer to teach him how to examine Little Chicago for mistakes to make sure it wouldn't blow him up. This would encourage him to trust her and rely on her for advice, which is what she's been doing in nearly every other scene in which she appears.
Also, I take back what I said about Lash not being well-integrated into this book. She is, mostly. On attempting to enumerate all the scenes in which she appears in this book, I remembered all the really good scenes. It's just this scene and the one at the beginning that stand out to me as being problematic.
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I disagree with this "what Lash should have done" routine. If Harry was any other moral - ANY other mortal that Lasciel had seduced in the past - this would have been the knockout blow. Lasciel is presumably intelligent enough to have deduced where this trip is ending up. Running Little Chicago is possibly the least dangerous of all the things Harry is about to attempt, and it's going to get his head blown to pieces. Lash *knows* that she's not going to get anywhere with the "let me slowly guide you" routine - she NEEDS to offer him the coin. She does his best attempt, and he refuses - and by doing so, accepts that he may die by his decision. There's nothing else that she can offer.
If Harry didn't accept Lasciel when Molly was being tortured to death in Faerie, I don't see him suddenly changing his mind because everything's suddenly immediate. That would imply a decision that was only half-heartedly thought out. Harry is 100% behind his decision.
The situation you pose is if suddenly there was a battle that broke out in the middle, when the Merlin declared Molly guilty. Yet I don't see this as being any more hopeless of a situation than storming Arctus Tor, or fighting Eldest Fetch - in that they are completely hopeless, save for information that Harry doesn't have - that he has Summer Fire, or that all of Winter is away.
Lastly... I feel like you're completely forgetting about Harry's last gambit - that this is, in itself, a leap of faith. Harry places his faith in TWG, even if he isn't willing to really admit it to himself, that either he had the power to bring Molly back or that Michael was somehow involved and would appear. When every situation got grimmer - learning that the Merlin had all the votes, that his defense of Molly was over-reaching, that the Merlin pronounced Molly's death - he got more resilient and audacious.
I mean - there's absolutely NO reason AT ALL to demand that everyone must wait while the Gatekeeper makes his last vote. The chances against something suddenly changing in the few minutes it would take would be trillions to one. Yet Dresden DOES demand this, and they DO wait... not because this is the only option available to him, but because Dresden actually has faith that TWG will pull through.
To think that things might suddenly get a bit spicy, and look dire, and Lash might do her time slowy thing, and Dresden might think, "You know, screw it, this faith thing seemed like a good idea, but I might as well turn into a monster after all to rescue this kid who CERTAINLY will turn into a monster without proper guidance, which I can't provide anymore - THAT is contrary to his character. Because the more dire things look, the more certain Dresden is that those doors are going to burst open and salvation is on the other side.
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I disagree with this "what Lash should have done" routine. If Harry was any other moral - ANY other mortal that Lasciel had seduced in the past - this would have been the knockout blow. Lasciel is presumably intelligent enough to have deduced where this trip is ending up. Running Little Chicago is possibly the least dangerous of all the things Harry is about to attempt, and it's going to get his head blown to pieces. Lash *knows* that she's not going to get anywhere with the "let me slowly guide you" routine - she NEEDS to offer him the coin. She does his best attempt, and he refuses - and by doing so, accepts that he may die by his decision. There's nothing else that she can offer.
The issue isn't that she offers him the coin--it's that she thinks hurting him is going to get her anything.
The situation you pose is if suddenly there was a battle that broke out in the middle, when the Merlin declared Molly guilty. Yet I don't see this as being any more hopeless of a situation than storming Arctus Tor, or fighting Eldest Fetch - in that they are completely hopeless, save for information that Harry doesn't have - that he has Summer Fire, or that all of Winter is away.
I'm not sure if it would be more hopeless or not, but I think Harry does. Harry specifically thinks that he's got no chance if a fight breaks out when he's talking to Charity beforehand.
Lastly... I feel like you're completely forgetting about Harry's last gambit - that this is, in itself, a leap of faith. Harry places his faith in TWG, even if he isn't willing to really admit it to himself, that either he had the power to bring Molly back or that Michael was somehow involved and would appear. When every situation got grimmer - learning that the Merlin had all the votes, that his defense of Molly was over-reaching, that the Merlin pronounced Molly's death - he got more resilient and audacious.
I mean - there's absolutely NO reason AT ALL to demand that everyone must wait while the Gatekeeper makes his last vote. The chances against something suddenly changing in the few minutes it would take would be trillions to one. Yet Dresden DOES demand this, and they DO wait... not because this is the only option available to him, but because Dresden actually has faith that TWG will pull through.
To think that things might suddenly get a bit spicy, and look dire, and Lash might do her time slowy thing, and Dresden might think, "You know, screw it, this faith thing seemed like a good idea, but I might as well turn into a monster after all to rescue this kid who CERTAINLY will turn into a monster without proper guidance, which I can't provide anymore - THAT is contrary to his character. Because the more dire things look, the more certain Dresden is that those doors are going to burst open and salvation is on the other side.
You mean, like it was contrary to Harry's character in Dead Beat, where he explicitly said he was going to do the faith thing when he was being tortured by Cassius, only to turn around the moment he was freed and agree to work with Lasciel's shadow for the first time ever because he couldn't stand by while innocents were killed?
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The issue isn't that she offers him the coin--it's that she thinks hurting him is going to get her anything.
My point is that I don't think there's any tactic Lash could take at this point that would result any differently - either being a source of aid or a source of danger.
I'm not sure if it would be more hopeless or not, but I think Harry does. Harry specifically thinks that he's got no chance if a fight breaks out when he's talking to Charity beforehand.
Yup. Completely hopeless. That's kind of the idea. The greater the odds are stacked against, the more likely that TWG would be stepping in.
You mean, like it was contrary to Harry's character in Dead Beat, where he explicitly said he was going to do the faith thing when he was being tortured by Cassius, only to turn around the moment he was freed and agree to work with Lasciel's shadow for the first time ever because he couldn't stand by while innocents were killed?
Yup. Because here, he's taking Michael's leap, by proxy. He's rules-lawyered himself into believing that the Almighty will interject, not on his behalf, but on Molly and Michael's.
And... he's not wrong. That's exactly what happens. Lash knows it, too. Lash typically doesn't interact when she knows that rescue is just around the corner (for example, she could have done the exact same thing when Morgan was going to kill Harry in Dead Beat, and Harry decided to die.) So the only way your proposition would work is if TWG is on vacation or something, and NO help is coming. Even then, no dice - because even at the height of her influence at the end of White Night, Harry was fine being destroyed and letting his loved ones die rather than take up the coin.
The only reason it's even an option in Changes - and not an option he ever chose - is not because it's just "an innocent." It's because it's his daughter. His hurt, scared, vulnerable daughter, and he swore to himself that he would never, ever, EVER let any child of his suffer. Half-warlock darkling path teen Molly who would turn herself into a monster anyways doesn't get that same consideration. Not by a long shot.
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My point is that I don't think there's any tactic Lash could take at this point that would result any differently - either being a source of aid or a source of danger.
I agree--I just still think that she was OoC.
Yup. Completely hopeless. That's kind of the idea. The greater the odds are stacked against, the more likely that TWG would be stepping in.
But given that my premise is essentially "but what if He didn't step in" this isn't really relevant.
Yup. Because here, he's taking Michael's leap, by proxy. He's rules-lawyered himself into believing that the Almighty will interject, not on his behalf, but on Molly and Michael's.
And... he's not wrong. That's exactly what happens. Lash knows it, too. Lash typically doesn't interact when she knows that rescue is just around the corner (for example, she could have done the exact same thing when Morgan was going to kill Harry in Dead Beat, and Harry decided to die.) So the only way your proposition would work is if TWG is on vacation or something, and NO help is coming.
So your actual argument is not that Harry would never pick up a coin in the circumstances stated in my premise--it is that my premise is ludicrous and invalid.
Even then, no dice - because even at the height of her influence at the end of White Night, Harry was fine being destroyed and letting his loved ones die rather than take up the coin.
Well, all the people he cared about had already escaped, and also he thought he did have a way out if he could convince Lash to take it.
The only reason it's even an option in Changes - and not an option he ever chose - is not because it's just "an innocent." It's because it's his daughter. His hurt, scared, vulnerable daughter, and he swore to himself that he would never, ever, EVER let any child of his suffer. Half-warlock darkling path teen Molly who would turn herself into a monster anyways doesn't get that same consideration. Not by a long shot.
Point, although I wonder how much Harry might be influenced by not failing Michael--though that's admittedly a two-edged sword.
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But given that my premise is essentially "but what if He didn't step in" this isn't really relevant.
So your actual argument is not that Harry would never pick up a coin in the circumstances stated in my premise--it is that my premise is ludicrous and invalid.
It seemed to me that your premise wasn't that Michael wasn't coming (after all, you mentioned Michael); it was that there was a delay and there was an actual fight that broke out, and the heat got turned up. My actual argument IS that Harry wouldn't pick up the coin in those circumstances - I pretty much made that my closing statement. I stand by that.
If you want to argue "What would happen if TWG wasn't going to save Harry or Molly at all," that's a completely different argument, because in Proven Guilty, Dresden's second-guessed TWG's plan perfectly. That implies that TWG's personality and motives are different.
If TWG was actually fundamentally different than he is portrayed in The Dresden Files, that would then mean Dresden is fundamentally wrong in his estimation of TWG's motives. That would mean that Lasciel would be aware that Dresden is incorrect, as she knows TWG far better than most mortals. That would mean that she would be far better able to argue, convince, and manipulate Harry, arguing from a correct standpoint rather than an incorrect standpoint. That would mean that, whether Harry would have accepted the coin or not, it would have been based upon a hypothetical situation in a hypothetical universe that does not in any way reflect how the series is actually portrayed.
I try not to get involved in discussions like that. Starting your premise being "what if X character was different than how he/she is portrayed" is relevant for fan fiction, but not so much for logical discussion. And yeah, I guess, if that's your posed hypothetical statement then I'm going to have to bow out - not because "it's ludicrous and invalid," but just because my only valid contribution is, "Well, that wouldn't happen, because it didn't happen."
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It seemed to me that your premise wasn't that Michael wasn't coming (after all, you mentioned Michael); it was that there was a delay and there was an actual fight that broke out, and the heat got turned up. My actual argument IS that Harry wouldn't pick up the coin in those circumstances - I pretty much made that my closing statement. I stand by that.
If you want to argue "What would happen if TWG wasn't going to save Harry or Molly at all," that's a completely different argument, because in Proven Guilty, Dresden's second-guessed TWG's plan perfectly. That implies that TWG's personality and motives are different.
Ah. I think this is my fault. I was reading an older thread about this topic, and when I posted this thread I forgot to include the context.
What I was thinking about when I wrote was is a debate about whether, if Michael showed up either in the middle of the Harry vs. White Council fight or after Molly had been executed, he would be able to wield Amorrachius against the White Council without it breaking, because he would be fighting out of vengeance. I tend to think that in this situation, the Sword would at the very least not be operating at full capacity, and might very well break.
Thus, the context in which Harry might pick up the coin would be that either Michael has shown up and is losing (possibly with Amorrachius broken) or TWG's contrived coincidence thing was interfered with by other free-willed people and as such He arranged for Michael not to show up in the middle of that fight because He knew it would end badly for team good guys.
Does that make more sense?
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Harry has a rather low opinion of himself, I think. In Dead Beat, he works with Lash after he abandons hope, because he doesn't believe that TWG would think he was worth saving. The glimmer of faith he had was only because there was an ex-Denarian there. Harry never thought that TWG would care about him, only that He would naturally want a Denarian stopped. He doesn't think of himself as a good person.
In Proven Guilty, the person Harry respects most—and what Harry probably considers to be the pinnacle of human goodness—has his family at risk. Because he's such a good person, and because he's pretty much seen that TWG does like Michael, Harry has faith that TWG wouldn't let Michael suffer. That's part of the reason he's so furious in Small Favor, I think.
Then in Changes, Harry no longer cares about temptation, really. He's gone full Winchester-in-the-seasons-when-Supernatural-wasn't-awful, ready to do whatever it takes to protect his family. He'd still prefer a less mustache-twirly option, which is why he goes to Winter, but he'd do it if he had to. In fact, I'm kinda surprised he didn't go for the Coin, too. Winter Knight=strong. Winter Denarian=Stronger.
Hell, having Lasciel back in his head might be helping keep back the Winter Knight's baser instincts right now. Lasciel was more articulate, and I doubt she'd have stood for some of the more primal urges the Mantle pushes on Harry.
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Harry has a rather low opinion of himself, I think. In Dead Beat, he works with Lash after he abandons hope, because he doesn't believe that TWG would think he was worth saving. The glimmer of faith he had was only because there was an ex-Denarian there. Harry never thought that TWG would care about him, only that He would naturally want a Denarian stopped. He doesn't think of himself as a good person.
In Proven Guilty, the person Harry respects most—and what Harry probably considers to be the pinnacle of human goodness—has his family at risk. Because he's such a good person, and because he's pretty much seen that TWG does like Michael, Harry has faith that TWG wouldn't let Michael suffer. That's part of the reason he's so furious in Small Favor, I think.
Good point. I hadn't thought about it that way.
Then in Changes, Harry no longer cares about temptation, really. He's gone full Winchester-in-the-seasons-when-Supernatural-wasn't-awful, ready to do whatever it takes to protect his family. He'd still prefer a less mustache-twirly option, which is why he goes to Winter, but he'd do it if he had to. In fact, I'm kinda surprised he didn't go for the Coin, too. Winter Knight=strong. Winter Denarian=Stronger.
Hell, having Lasciel back in his head might be helping keep back the Winter Knight's baser instincts right now. Lasciel was more articulate, and I doubt she'd have stood for some of the more primal urges the Mantle pushes on Harry.
Definitely--or even only calling Lasciel's coin. I always thought that Lasciel or whoever the whisperer was messed that up--I believe that if Harry wanted to live through rescuing Maggie, he would have gone for Lasciel's coin because he knew there was an exit strategy. It was only after he was pushed into being suicidal that Mab started looking like the better option.
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Two possibilities arise. Michael arrives before Molly is executed or he arrives after.
If the first, Michael is traveling with half the Senior Council and they are followed close on by whoever was chasing them. It's hard to see how a fight would evolve out of the chaos of his arrival in this situation.
If the second, then Harry is dead and there will be no fight involving Michael. Harry has sworn to protect her with his life.
In a close quarters fight Harry and Molly would have died quickly. That seems to be established. Harry wouldn't have had time to take advantage of whatever Lasciel could have offered. Reason demands that Harry would have had to make the decision to use either the coin or Mab's offer before entering the circle. And he didn't.
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If the first, Michael is traveling with half the Senior Council and they are followed close on by whoever was chasing them. It's hard to see how a fight would evolve out of the chaos of his arrival in this situation.
The idea here is that the fight would have already started, and that he would be arriving in the middle of it.
In a close quarters fight Harry and Molly would have died quickly. That seems to be established. Harry wouldn't have had time to take advantage of whatever Lasciel could have offered. Reason demands that Harry would have had to make the decision to use either the coin or Mab's offer before entering the circle. And he didn't.
You're forgetting Lash's time-slowing trick. So long as Harry can last a few seconds, there is time for him to call the coin to him.
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No I haven't forgotten it. But Lasciel isn't Superwoman. Harry defeats her fairly easily in Skin Game. And Harry would have been up against Morgans sword which is designed to cleave magic and against the Merlin, who by Jim's word is the most powerful living wizard.
Everyone was locked out with the wards the wardens put on the meeting place, Michael couldn't have gotten in until the fight was over. Unless the Gatekeeper was prepared to open the door once the fight had started. Jim set the stage fairly well.I looked wildly around the room for someone, anyone to help, for some way to stop this madness. I felt a sudden pressure against my spine, and I looked over my shoulder.
My eyes fell on the Gatekeeper.
“True,” the Gatekeeper replied, very gently, the faintest shade of rebuke in his voice. “But that does not change my moral obligation to make this decision with care.”
The Merlin took a deep breath and then said, forced calm in his voice, “I suppose a few moments for thought are not unreasonable.”
“Thank you,” the Gatekeeper said gravely.
Five minutes went by like five thousand years. Molly sagged against me, so frightened she could barely stand.
“Enough,” the Merlin said, finally. “This travesty needs to end.”
“On that point,” the Gatekeeper said, “we agree.” And then he stepped forward to the circle marked on the floor, and smudged it with his boot, breaking the circle. He flicked a gloved hand, and the lock on the chained door sprang open and fell away, followed closely by the chains.
Every event in the building was a play for time, each actor taking a round extending the event until Michael and the others could escape to Chicago. The Gatekeeper was watching Michael run with the others, letting Harry extend the string until he ran out at which point the Gatekeeper intervened to run out the clock on the Merlin.
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(https://68.media.tumblr.com/c4bcb445e2f660c6fa487e0fdd149ed2/tumblr_ng5042CDiv1tbsjlbo1_400.gif)
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No I haven't forgotten it. But Lasciel isn't Superwoman. Harry defeats her fairly easily in Skin Game. And Harry would have been up against Morgans sword which is designed to cleave magic and against the Merlin, who by Jim's word is the most powerful living wizard.
That's why what Lasciel would do is help him escape.
Everyone was locked out with the wards the wardens put on the meeting place, Michael couldn't have gotten in until the fight was over.
The wards can't be that strong--there's no threshold. And if they were that strong I would expect Harry to have commented on it, if only in the same way he always comments on it when he's reminded of how strong the Merlin really is.
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What is your point? What does this scenario accomplish? If Michael broke the sword he would no longer be a Knight, he would have broken with his faith. Harry and Molly would be outlaws under a sentence of death assuming that they escaped.
In terms of how powerful a ward can be I offer this."If Senior Council members McCoy and Liberty had not come to our aid, we might have all died there. Even with them, we managed to hold them only long enough for the Gatekeeper and the Merlin to raise a ward behind us, to give us time to escape."
"A ward?" I blurted. "Are you telling me that they stonewalled an entire army of vampires and demons? With one ward?"
"You don't get to be Merlin of the White Council by collecting bottle caps," Ramirez said, his voice dry.
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What is your point? What does this scenario accomplish? If Michael broke the sword he would no longer be a Knight, he would have broken with his faith. Harry and Molly would be outlaws under a sentence of death assuming that they escaped.
I'm confused. This thread is about whether Harry would take up Lasciel's coin in the hypothetical scenarios postulated here (Michael arrives in the middle of the fight and is losing; Michael does not arrive at all). I think it could go either way. What do you mean "what does this scenario accomplish?"
In terms of how powerful a ward can be I offer this.
That's why I included this in my response:
And if they were that strong I would expect Harry to have commented on it, if only in the same way he always comments on it when he's reminded of how strong the Merlin really is.
We've seen several situations where the Merlin does something impossibly difficult, and every time Harry's narration notes it specifically and comments on it. As such, I assume if the Merlin had put up one of his impossible wards on the warehouse, Harry's narration would have commented on it (I know Harry's bad at sensing magic, but I don't think even he could miss a super-ward when he was walking through it).
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Eh, the true power of that meeting's defence was a circle on the ground; it'd keep in in, and out out, but any halfwit human could have broken it by smudging it (as the Gatekeeper did, though he is no halfwit).
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As to would Harry take up the coin. The question is asked and answered in White Knight. He refuses to do so even to save the thralls or his allies including his brother. When I ask you what is the point, I'm asking you, in effect, how is the plot served?
Eh, the true power of that meeting's defence was a circle on the ground; it'd keep in in, and out out, but any halfwit human could have broken it by smudging it (as the Gatekeeper did, though he is no halfwit).
Of course there were the two halfwits outside and the chain on the door. And the walls of the warehouse to keep the halfwits from doing it from the outside. And yet Eb seemed to feel it was safer in the warehouse that outside on the porch. :)
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As to would Harry take up the coin. The question is asked and answered in White Knight. He refuses to do so even to save the thralls or his allies including his brother.
I had thought that everyone but Harry and Lara had escaped by that point. Am I misremembering?
When I ask you what is the point, I'm asking you, in effect, how is the plot served?
Some possibilities, in no particular order (not all of these are compatible with each other):
-Molly's plot line would be completely different.
-The Paranet would never have been formed--or maybe it would have been formed partially to work against the White Council? It would depend on how much contact Thomas had with Harry.
-Harry might try to find Elaine and get some advice about hiding from the Council, or he might go to South America since the war would make it much harder for the White Council to track him and Molly down there and find out about Maggie sooner. Maybe he ends up teaching both Molly and Hannah?
-His magic would almost certainly end up an order of magnitude better, between having Lasciel as a teacher and what he'd need to learn to hide from the White Council.
-Chicago would have to cope with losing its protector years earlier, and it wouldn't even have Marcone as a freeholding lord to help--but on the other hand, they wouldn't have the Fomor causing trouble there for years, so they might be in better shape when that happens.
-Nicodemus would know that Harry wasn't in Chicago any more, so the whole "kidnap the Archive" plan wouldn't happen.
-No idea what would happen with the plot of Turn Coat, but probably things turn out a lot worse for the Council--maybe Morgan decides that since there's no one he can go to for help, he might as well go out in a blaze of glory, heads to South America to attack the Red Court, and meets Harry there?
-That's not even getting into the thing with Harry and Lasciel. Maybe instead of actually redeeming Lash, Lasciel pretends that Harry's changing her and Harry has to realize that she's faking it?
-Maybe Harry still bonds with Demonreach because he needs to be in Chicago to stop the White Court killing practitioners, and Lasciel suggests bonding with the island so that he can use it to hide (her motive, of course, is that the Fallen like apocalypses and the island can cause a big one).
-Harry still ends up killing Maeve, but as his second favor to Mab rather than because he's her Knight--maybe in the process he finds out about the war at the Outer Gates and decides to bargain a certain number of favors to Mab in exchange for her stopping the Council from hunting him down, with the understanding that she'll use them for protecting the world from Outsiders.
-Someone who isn't Molly probably ends up winter lady--maybe instead of killing Maeve immediately, Harry traps her on Demonreach for a year while Mab prepares a vessel.
-Chichen Itza is going to be viewed very differently if Harry is working with Lasciel when it happens, given the level of destruction that Harry ends up causing there.
-Michael is going to have some conflict dealing with the fact that Harry picked up Lasciel's coin to save his daughter.
-Harry still screws Nicodemus over in Skin Game, but the entire thing looks like an internal conflict, so Marcone doesn't end up looking good because of it and Mab is still plotting her revenge on Nic. Maybe Harry ends up representing the Denarians in Peace Talks, if only Nic was no longer part of the Accords?
-Maybe Harry ends up learning white necromancy to fight the Red Court, raising the ghosts of their victims against them (Jim has said that Lasciel would be Harry's black magic teacher, and has called what Harry did at the end of Grave Peril "white necromancy"). He would also learn things like Kumori's life-saving trick, and we could watch him slowly slip into using more standard necromancy until someone calls him on it (this could be parallel to Murphy calling Harry on his temper problems in White Night, and could help him realize what Lasciel is doing to him).
-Maybe Harry ends up working for Lily on a semi-regular basis, helping to launch offensives against the Red Court when the rest of Summer is tied up (he already has the Oak Leaf, and he's clearly done at least one job for Lily before. Titania might agree not to interfere on the basis that it would make it more likely for Harry to be killed or captured by the Red Court). If so, he could notice that Maeve could lie much earlier.
Honestly, I just really like Lash even when she was still just a copy of Lasciel, so by extension I figure I would really like getting to see Lasciel and Harry work together (I wasn't fond of Lasciel in Skin Game, but that was when she was working with Hannah).
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You are misrembering.
I didn't ask you how the plot would change, I asked you how the plot was served. The plot was a quest to save Molly. Here was the promise to Charity.I walked across the floor and lowered myself to one knee before Charity. “I don’t know anything about that. But for whatever it is worth, I promise you,” I said very quietly. “I will bring your daughter back from the Council safe and well. They’ll have to kill me to stop me.”
Molly forever a fugitive and almost certainly a warlock seems to not fulfill that promise.
Probably the greatest loss plot wise, though I won't argue it, is that Bonea never comes alive.
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You are misrembering.
You're right. My bad.
I didn't ask you how the plot would change, I asked you how the plot was served. The plot was a quest to save Molly. Here was the promise to Charity. Molly forever a fugitive and almost certainly a warlock seems to not fulfill that promise.
I'll be honest here, I don't get what you're saying. Are you saying that the plot only works if Harry succeeds unproblematically? In my scenario, Harry makes an objectively awful choice in order to attempt to fulfill his promise to Charity. This spurs character development, conflict, and new directions for the plot to go, all of which I gave examples of. I'm not sure what you mean by "serving the plot" if it isn't that.
Also, I'm not sure why you think that Molly would "almost certainly [be] a warlock." Harry certainly wouldn't decide to just throw out the laws of magic just because the Council is trying to kill them, and he's probably still her teacher.
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Personally I feel like if Harry had gotten desperate he'd most likely have tossed Lily his shiny new pin and been like "Favour: get us out of here!"
Then Lily Nevernever's him and Molly to, I dunno, China or something and they go on the run.
Now, might he have called on Lasciel if he were cornered and it came down to a fight? Perhaps. He's been tempted before. But I don't think so. It would take a lot to make him that desperate, and as much as he wanted to save Molly (and if possible himself) I don't know that he'd go that far just yet.
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Personally I feel like if Harry had gotten desperate he'd most likely have tossed Lily his shiny new pin and been like "Favour: get us out of here!"
Then Lily Nevernever's him and Molly to, I dunno, China or something and they go on the run.
That's a good point!
Now, might he have called on Lasciel if he were cornered and it came down to a fight? Perhaps. He's been tempted before. But I don't think so. It would take a lot to make him that desperate, and as much as he wanted to save Molly (and if possible himself) I don't know that he'd go that far just yet.
Yeah, I figure the odds of him doing it are something like 30-40% at most. I just really want to read a longer story where Harry takes up Lasciel's coin, and I think this is a better starting place for it than White Night (by that point, picking up a coin would mean killing Lash (who Harry seems to care about)).
Seriously, I can only remember three fanfics that have Harry picking up Lasciel's coin, and while they're excellent, one is a fairly short one-shot, one appears to have been abandoned, and one seems to update super-slowly (if it's not abandoned too) and Harry only picked up the coin at the end of what's posted.
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You're right. My bad.
I'll be honest here, I don't get what you're saying. Are you saying that the plot only works if Harry succeeds unproblematically? In my scenario, Harry makes an objectively awful choice in order to attempt to fulfill his promise to Charity. This spurs character development, conflict, and new directions for the plot to go, all of which I gave examples of. I'm not sure what you mean by "serving the plot" if it isn't that.
Also, I'm not sure why you think that Molly would "almost certainly [be] a warlock." Harry certainly wouldn't decide to just throw out the laws of magic just because the Council is trying to kill them, and he's probably still her teacher.
The plot as stated was to keep Molly from being Proven Guilty. Serving that plot would be a change that achieves the same endpoint.
If you want to write a book called Harry goes on the Lamb with Molly, that's well and good. In your book he would lose both sources of his income, his business and his warden paycheck. Making Harry and Molly homeless, not to mention under a sentence of death. Not a good place to be in for a teacher or a student. I assume Murphy would take his pets and clean out his apartment. Harry has so much junk at the hacienda. Swords, skulls and LC. At least his landlady won't get burned out.
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The plot as stated was to keep Molly from being Proven Guilty. Serving that plot would be a change that achieves the same endpoint.
So what you're saying is that the plot is only served if the good guys win. I disagree with this.
If you want to write a book called Harry goes on the Lamb with Molly, that's well and good. In your book he would lose both sources of his income, his business and his warden paycheck. Making Harry and Molly homeless, not to mention under a sentence of death. Not a good place to be in for a teacher or a student. I assume Murphy would take his pets and clean out his apartment. Harry has so much junk at the hacienda. Swords, skulls and LC. At least his landlady won't get burned out.
Actually, one's been written: Fight and Flight by TheRedPoet. You can find it at Archive of our Own. You should read it. It's really good! I just wish it had more Lasciel in it (the premise is that Harry does a runner when he realizes that the Merlin has 6 votes, rather than my suggestion of him picking up Lasciel's coin). Things work out fairly well for Molly, actually--Harry doesn't have a job, so with nothing to distract him he notices how much of a problem her sensitivity is an works out how to train her how to deal with it.
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So what you're saying is that the plot is only served if the good guys win. I disagree with this.
No. I'm saying that in any reasonable world, you don't change the last act without changing what came before. Proven Guilty moves to the end after multiple chapters of setup. The book sets up the conclusion so that Molly can return home to her family and reconcile with her mother. The book is a puzzle and you've introduced a piece that doesn't fit.
There can be a story where your idea works, but not Proven Guilty. Or at least not without a significant rewrite.
Chapter one sets up the final confrontation with the White Council. It mirrors what Molly will face at the end. The warlock that is executed contrasts with Molly directly, and it is this outcome that sickens Harry and motivates Harry to act for Molly. Running with Molly wastes that setup, it remains unresolved.
Rashid's note is the next part. It tells us at least two things. That Rashid has a mechanism for finding acts of Black Magic in Chicago, and that he finds it important enough to warn Harry. The point is to give Harry a chance to save Molly rather then turn her into a fugitive. It also advances the ongoing backstory.
The last part I will note is Harry's interaction with Michael. Part of the hazard that Molly faces is the loss of support from her family. And Harry has allowed the coin to estrange him from his friend. Michael's willingness to put his family in Harry's hands and trust in him to try and repair Molly's relationship with her mother despite his knowledge of the shadow, ends that estrangement, and shows Michael's faith in both TWG and Harry.
Your scenario offers no payoff. It turns the book into a cliffhanger and basically wastes all that setup. Molly doesn't die, but neither is she free. Rashid's warning is wasted, and things are now worse for Michael's family rather than better.
As a general rule I refuse to read fan fiction. There isn't anything wrong with it. But for me it destroys the flow of the books. In the case of the Dresden Files I am more interested in the ongoing backstory. Why the characters act the way they do. And what happens off the page. So while you want to see more Lasciel, I want to see why Jim created Bonea.
You soldier on and I'll torment someone else for a while.
Personally I feel like if Harry had gotten desperate he'd most likely have tossed Lily his shiny new pin and been like "Favour: get us out of here!"
That would seem to violate the rules of hospitality.
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The book as written also foreshadows when Harry will confront the Council in a future book. Echoed by what Rashid tells him in Turncoat. It proves that Harry can go head to head with the Merlin verbally, intellectually, and win, even if in this case without a little help he was going to lose anyway because the Merlin had his thumb on the scale of justice.
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No. I'm saying that in any reasonable world, you don't change the last act without changing what came before. Proven Guilty moves to the end after multiple chapters of setup. The book sets up the conclusion so that Molly can return home to her family and reconcile with her mother. The book is a puzzle and you've introduced a piece that doesn't fit.
There can be a story where your idea works, but not Proven Guilty. Or at least not without a significant rewrite.
Yeah, I'm sorry, but I just don't see this. Maybe it's just because I'm not looking at the books as discrete entities so much as chapters in an ongoing story, but to me this seems like a natural extension of the "problems with the Council" thread that's been running through the books. I do agree, however, that changing some things earlier in the book would make it flow more smoothly. For example, if I was going to write this story, I would have Lasciel, in her first appearance right after the warlock is executed, say something like "I wonder, my host, if the black magic is coming from an actual threat or a child that knows no better--not that the Council would care, of course" and have Harry spend a few minutes trying and mostly failing to deny it. Then I would move the conversation where Harry tells Michael about Lasciel to before Michael leaves, when he says he trusts Harry to protect his family, and have Harry add a line about how it's hard to justify ignoring Lash completely when drawing on her is occasionally the only way to save innocent lives. I'd also have Harry put more stress on the fact that when he and Rawlings (sp?) are captured, he can't let Rawlings get killed. I'd also move Harry's conversation with Ebenezer about the Black Council to the beginning of the book.
...On second thought, I do see what you mean. I'm just so used to reading fanfiction and coming up with my own ideas for it (even if I never write them) that I rewrote some stuff in my head. That said, I don't think there would need to be any particularly major changes for this to work.
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I agree with morriswalters that the end of the book can't change unless the preceding fortysomething chapters were overhauled; at the very least, Arctis Tor and onward would need to be altered fundamentally. If Molly goes on the run with Harry, then Charity should die getting her away from Eldest Fetch, for instance, and both the Council and Lasciel would need to have a much more significant presence in the book. I mean, without, for example, Harry witnessing Charity sacrifice her life (or something equally troubling) to preserve Molly's life, do you think he'd actually use a Denarian's power to save Michael's daughter? He already feels too ashamed of himself to even speak to Michael, and that's just from having a Shadow. I think that the way things were written, Harry taking Molly as his apprentice while remaining with the Council is the only ending that really makes sense, otherwise it'd just be drama for drama's sake.
All of this aside, it's something that could have happened at one point or another in the story, but I don't think it would've been better. Denarian Harry just wouldn't be terribly interesting to me. The only ongoing element that I'd like to see from that perspective is a deeper look into Nicodemus's plan (when taking Denarian Harry down its logical plot). But that would necessarily eliminate or reduce the importance of the other ongoing plots—the Red Court war, the Black Council and White Council politics, Harry's relationship with Thomas, the Alphas, Murphy... if Harry's on the run, Chicago isn't really a viable setting anymore, and that would be too big of a change, I think.
That said, nadia.skylark, if that's the kind of plot you're into, then check out the Alex Verus series by Benedict Jacka, if you haven't already. He's one of a handful of urban fantasy writers who I read regularly; though he does take some cues from Jim Butcher (and gives him a hat tip in Book One), it's very much its own tone, style, and cast, with a lead protagonist that's simultaneously outmatched and completely overpowered.
And there's nothing wrong with fan fiction. I never wrote or read much of it myself, but it's a way for a lot of writers to learn how to write. It's like disassembling someone's Lego set to build something yourself, which can be very helpful.
Though it did give us *shudder* Fifty Shades of Grey, for which I will never forgive the FanFic community.
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at the very least, Arctis Tor and onward would need to be altered fundamentally. If Molly goes on the run with Harry, then Charity should die getting her away from Eldest Fetch, for instance, and both the Council and Lasciel would need to have a much more significant presence in the book. I mean, without, for example, Harry witnessing Charity sacrifice her life (or something equally troubling) to preserve Molly's life, do you think he'd actually use a Denarian's power to save Michael's daughter? He already feels too ashamed of himself to even speak to Michael, and that's just from having a Shadow.
This would be a great addition!
Denarian Harry just wouldn't be terribly interesting to me. The only ongoing element that I'd like to see from that perspective is a deeper look into Nicodemus's plan (when taking Denarian Harry down its logical plot). But that would necessarily eliminate or reduce the importance of the other ongoing plots—the Red Court war, the Black Council and White Council politics, Harry's relationship with Thomas, the Alphas, Murphy... if Harry's on the run, Chicago isn't really a viable setting anymore, and that would be too big of a change, I think.
Not necessarily. I believe I proposed two theories where Harry gets a lot more involved with the war with the Red Court, either by hiding in South America and working with the Fellowship or by making a bargain with Lily and contributing to the war that way. In either case, you could have covert Council interaction through his allies, and then have Harry brought back into dealing with Black Council infiltration via Morgan (either Morgan decides to die by blowing up as much of the Red Court as he can manage and runs into Harry that way, or he runs into Harry when he goes to cash in his favor from Summer). In addition, I proposed a theory where Thomas still has sporadic contact with Harry, and Harry goes back to Chicago to deal with the plot of White Night and ends up bonding with Demonreach much earlier, at which point he can live there at least part time. It would put Harry somewhat in the same position Molly was in Ghost Story, where Carlos knows he's there but pretends not to, so you could explore more of the way the Council is fragmenting. It would also involve moving a lot of the post-Changes character development and interaction earlier, which I think works well--having all of it happening when it does in the books means we don't get to see it explored as much as I would like, because so much else is happening. Harry could also get more involved with Red Court and Black Council things purely through the Denarian angle, since Nicodemus has indicated that he's against both.
That said, nadia.skylark, if that's the kind of plot you're into, then check out the Alex Verus series by Benedict Jacka, if you haven't already. He's one of a handful of urban fantasy writers who I read regularly; though he does take some cues from Jim Butcher (and gives him a hat tip in Book One), it's very much its own tone, style, and cast, with a lead protagonist that's simultaneously outmatched and completely overpowered.
I've read it, and it's awesome!