4. It takes approx 10 weeks for the legion to march from the Elinarch to Mastings in a straight line without fury crafted roads.
It just seems like the Elinarch is farther away from Foundersport then the map shows. If I move Mastings etc. closer to Vaucusguard then it shouldn't take ten weeks for the legion to march to Mastings unless Elinarch is farther away. Am I making any sense?
When Kalarus took hostages, who did he take (I don't have my books right now)? Because he needed to do so to stop two High Lords from interfereing, meaning that they would have been of strategic help to Ceres, if IRC.
I reread CaF for the 5th or 6th time. Right at the end, after Bernard and Amara are flying home to the Calderon Valley, the first stop is a stay at an inn in Attica, which is one days flight from Kalare (or what used to be Kalare).
So I've moved Attica to the west of the capitol.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/2101250610/ Map of Alera BW CaF'd
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/2089370713/ Map of Alera original
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/2090156276/ Map of Carna
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/2089368743/ Map of Calderon
Mikey
I haven't been paying much attention to this thread, so when I just dropped in and saw how much work had been done since I last saw the "original"... I'm blown away! With no disrespect to the original, I'm so impressed at how it's actually looking like a real map now. The geek in me (okay, what part of me *isn't* the geek?) is feeling particular glee at how the coast of the Canim bloodlands fits suspiciously well into the Carna's coast bordering the Sea of Ice. It makes me think of how well South America fits into Africa, and the science of plate tectonics.
Everyone involved in this project deserves a pat on the back! I'm stickying this topic. Belgarion, you might want to keep the first post in this thread updated with links to the latest version of the maps for easy access, like we do for the Timeline threads.
I could be wrong here but wouldnt garados(sp) and the pine barren's be west of bernarholdt? since the marat didnt come through the sea of ice to get to the pine barrens? maybe I need a reread but jus looking at the maps I dont see the why the pine barrens would be important for a marat invasion at the current position you have on your map tell me if im wrong here :)
I've been putting the links in each of my posts. How do I keep the first post updated with the links? I'll be glad to do it, no problem.
Mikey
Just click the "Modify" button on that first post and paste 'em in!
In the Calderon map, the causeway is supposed to lead to Garrison. In FoC, it says, "The rear gates of Garrison stood open, and the causeway wound across the Valley and up to them."
When Tavi emerged from the barrens onto the causeway in FoC, he was "several miles west of the lane to Bernardholt." Currently, you have the barrens northeast of Bernardholt. Also, I got the impression that the barrens weren't between Garados and Bernardholt. When Tavi went to Amara's aid, Garados was close enough for Amara to suggest they seek shelter on Garados (apparently closer than the Princeps' Memorium which was about a mile away).
Possibly, the causeway "circles" the Valley on the way to Garrison with only spur lanes (roads) leading to the various holts.
Quote from: Kathleen Dante on Today at 06:06:06 AM
In the Calderon map, the causeway is supposed to lead to Garrison. In FoC, it says, "The rear gates of Garrison stood open, and the causeway wound across the Valley and up to them."
When Tavi emerged from the barrens onto the causeway in FoC, he was "several miles west of the lane to Bernardholt." Currently, you have the barrens northeast of Bernardholt. Also, I got the impression that the barrens weren't between Garados and Bernardholt. When Tavi went to Amara's aid, Garados was close enough for Amara to suggest they seek shelter on Garados (apparently closer than the Princeps' Memorium which was about a mile away).
Possibly, the causeway "circles" the Valley on the way to Garrison with only spur lanes (roads) leading to the various holts.
Mikey
On page 38, Bernard and Tavi are standing on the bridge talking to Isana through Rill, and Tavi " shot an uneasy glance to the northeast, where the towering mountain of Garados sat glowering down on the inhabitants of the Calderon valley"
eg. Garados is Northeast of Bernardholt.
I'm trying to square all this in the map. It's definitely confusing, at least to me.
I'm going to continue to look at it. Maybe a light bulb will come on.
A couple more details to add to the pot:
The north bridge over the Rill where Bernard and Tavi talk to Isana is a footbridge for the lane heading north that connects Bernardholt to the causeway. It isn't a part of the causeway.
On p.33, they're on a winding lane
On p.35, Tavi follows Bernard "on down the road ... toward the causeway".
On p.46, Isana in the kitchen at Bernardholt crosses to the northern window and eyes the mountain peak to the north.
On p.62, the cry of the second herdbane comes from the trees to the west of them, up the slope (of Garados). The pine barrens apparently run from the causeway to part of the way up the slopes of Garados and east of the mountain.
It's possible that the lane first runs on a northwesterly route from Bernard's steadholt to the Rill, then northeast from the north bridge to where it connects with the causeway somewhere near the pine barrens and some miles east of Garados.
Of course there's another way in. Mountain ranges don't form an impenetrable wall.
And instead of flicker, may I suggest tinypic? tinypic.com It's very simple.
shouldn't Garison be on the other side of the valley didn't the Marrat march through the steadholts to reach Garison. and Kord holt should be west of Garados because in AF pg. 56 Aric says "somethings been hunting on the eastern steadholt"
Aquitaine should be farther north, and Kalare should be farther south.
How did you guys come to the conclusion that Parcia is south of Kalare? I thought they sailed north.
I still think Aricholt/Kordholt should be closest to Garados. They intended to use it as a base of operations against the Vord.
I still think Aricholt/Kordholt should be closest to Garados. They intended to use it as a base of operations against the Vord.
shouldn't Garison be on the other side of the valley didn't the Marrat march through the steadholts to reach Garison. and Kord holt should be west of Garados because in AF pg. 56 Aric says "somethings been hunting on the eastern steadholt"
The footpath that connects Bernardholt to the causeway is the one that crosses the Rillwater. I don't remember any reference to the causeway crossing the Rillwater. Basically, I think the pine barrens, Bernardholt, the forest near Bernardholt, and the Princeps Memorium, and the X marks for Amara and second herdbane should be farther east relative to Garados. Also, the causeway leads to Garrison.
so Tavi, Fade, and Amara headed from Benardholt to Garrison yet they encountered the Rill water I don't see any sensible way for that to happen using this map
I've found a few problems here.
Aldoholt should be the closest to Garados. When they're fighting the Vord, they go to Aldoholt, planning to use it as a base or something (but they're all gooone!)
And Aquitaine should be in the north. It states quite a few times that it is, and that Aquitaine had northern support and Kalare had southern support.
Also, I don't remember it ever saying that Parcia and all those other nations were south of Kalare. How did you arrive at that conclusion?
I need to see some page numbers to justify moving Aquitaine to the north.
I'll be glad to do it, if I can read it.
M
We already found out in FoC that Aquitaine is a neighbour of Rhodes, so there's no way it's far in the north. Also the northern High Lords are Gaius' strongest remaining supporters not Aquitaine's.
that looks about right but I allways imagined the whole city set out in concentic circles with trades men lane being a complite circle and inside it was craftsmens lane and master craftsmens lane and citzens lane and garden lane and the palace
The "southern" cities are Kalare, Attica, Ceres, Forcia, Parcia and Rhodes.
I just happened to be re-reading CuF. On p.162, Amara says, "If Kalarus's forces take Ceres, there will be nothing to stand between them and the capital." And on p.163, Gaius says, "I'm dispatching Third Imperian to your aid, but they cannot reach you before Kalare's forces. The Crown Legion, however, was on maneuvers south of the capital, and I ordered them to your aid within an hour of the attack. They've been force-marching through the night, and Sir Miles should be arriving with his men within hours. . . . I have already asked High Lords Placidus and Atticus to send relief forces to link up with Third Imperian."
Based on the above, I think Alera Imperia should be where Placida is currently positioned in your map. Currently, the map doesn't support Amara's statement since Kalare would have to go through Atticus to get to Alera Imperia, and the Crown Legion maneuvering in the south of the capital would have a rapid response advantage since it would have to march through Atticus to get to Ceres.
Why are we assuming that there's water south of the Calderon valley?
Its stated that if Ceres was defeated Kalare could attack Alera Imperia directly. Aquitaine at the moment is between Ceres and Alera Imperia.
I can confirm that Kalare is on the southwest coast of Alera.
Muchas gracias. ;D
Is this the death of my theory or do I just have to think less rectangularly?
Why are we assuming that there's water south of the Calderon valley?
Hi,
I best start my 2 cents here with the confession that I'm geographically challenged. So my suggestion might be completely off.
Looking at the maps you came up with so far (great work btw!), I was wondering why you'd put Kalare somewhere with a west coast. I can't remember a passage in the books where this is implied and I think that some of the problems you're running into might be solved if you switch Kalare to the south coast. The westernmost states would then be:
1. Antillus (north)
2. Placida (middle on the north-south axis, but clearly west, north of the Tiber)
3. Ceres (south, south of the Tiber, kind of a large west-east span, but not a lot of north-south)
4. Forcia
I'd put Kalare east of Forcia, with a south-coast only. Ceres would then be on the north of both Forcia and Kalare, those two states being longer on the north-south axis than the other way round.
The Blackhills could be a mountain range that divides the western southern states from the eastern ones, with just a couple of passes between them. I think that the Tiber river could have its source in the Blackhills, because the Tiber seems to be the border between Ceres and Placida, and the southern tip of Placida's lands - where the First Aleran was first stationed - was in the Blackhills as well, probably the northern tip of that mountain range.
With such an arrangement, you can more easily put the city of Ceres on the marching route between Kalare and Alera Imperia, with no other big obstacles between them - assuming that the Tiber isn't that large farther east and nearer its source. It'd also better explain how the First Aleran moved away from the theater of the war when they were ordered to guard the Elinarch and why Kalare would invite the Canim in the first place: his own lands would be far away from the threat and the Cane would only be a problem for his enemies Ceres and Placida.
If there's a reason Kalare has to be on the west coast, you can just ignore the stuff I've written. :)
Hi,Hm, yeah. I think I found another one: In the prologue of CaF, the conversation between Miles and Amara, where Miles said that the Canim protect Kalare's northern flank, while Kalare protects their southern. And that they could attack Kalare from two sides if the Canim were out of the equation.
Priscellie is correct. Kalare is on the west coast.
I'll look in the books and find the references which led us to placing him there.
One was in the last book CaF where Amara flew east from Kalare into Attica where she and Bernard stopped to clean up.
Another were the families involved in Kalare's kidnapping victims in CuF. Placida, Ceres, and Atticus.
I'm still looking through the comment file but those two stand out.
M.
Hm, yeah. I think I found another one: In the prologue of CaF, the conversation between Miles and Amara, where Miles said that the Canim protect Kalare's northern flank, while Kalare protects their southern. And that they could attack Kalare from two sides if the Canim were out of the equation.
There's another theory of mine being flushed out down the toilet. :)
I guess the forces Miles and Aquitaine were commanding must be attacking Kalare from the east, from Attican and/or Placidan territory. And if Kalare's on the south-west coast, both the southern and the western flanks are protected by the sea. But there's the problem imho: Where on Carna is Forcia? None of the characters mentioned anything about Forcian legions or about what Lord Forcia was doing. ???
I'd suggest it's the territory the Canim have occupied if the holder who was fleeing from the Canim raiders that Tavi first met hadn't been expecting Ceresian military. (p. 252, hardback ed. CuF, ch. 31) It's theoretically possible that the Canim occupy both Forcia and a part of Ceres, but that begs the question why the Forcian legions aren't fighting them.
Another theoretical possibility would be that Forcia is north of the Tiber, where the First Aleran are stationed, and that Placida is further north. But that would also mean that the Forcian legions had every reason to help fight the Canim, yet they don't. Not to mention that it'd be rather unlikely that so many Placidan ex-Legionares settled around the Elinarch if Placida was very far away.
If Forcia's a peninsula south of Kalare, like you had on your first draft, the Kalaran swamps wouldn't really be the southernmost part of Alera, like it's said somewhere, iirc. And there's the problem that Kalare could be attacked from the south, so they would already have the option to open a second front on him. Except if Lord Forcia is neutral for some obscure reason or if he's secretly joined the rebellion (but nobody mentioned it so far, or could prove it ???). That would at least explain Kalare's 7 legions: 3 Kalaran, 3 Forcian and 1 rogue, but that doesn't sound right imo.
I'm tempted to put Forcia on an island west of Kalare. And the Canim didn't try to settle there cause Sarl thought they'd still need their ships if they had to defend that place, so he couldn't burn them. :-\
I just looked at your most recent map of Calderon and I am wondering where the woods are that Tavi and Fade escaped into after the fight at the Rill water.
We will have the first 6 preview chapters of Princep's Fury next week, thanks to Jim and Priscellie. I'll start working on PF maps then.
Mikey
The chapters will be posted over the next month. As in, the prologue was posted today, chapter one will be posted on the 30th, chapter 2 on the 7th, etc., up to chapter 5 on October 28th.
it seems to me that it should flare back out towards the Aleran coast. The way I see it is that Alera exists solely in the nothern hemsphire and the bloodlands in both north and south. Also I expect that the continets sort of fit together just like ours.
I've updated the Princeps Fury Map somewhat. Now that we know that the name the cannim give to their homeland is Canea:
http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/2920992753/
Mikey
I still don't see how Forcia can be below Kalare. In the civil war Forcia would of been in perfect position to beat down Kalare had they been there.
I really love these maps. You guys did a great job. The only thing I could see wrong is that I thought that the Feverthorn Jungle and Kalare's swamps were in the "southermost part" of Alera. So shouldn't Forcia be a little less long to let Kalare be more in the south? maybe i'm wrong, but i was trying to remember all the geography things in the books. :-\ otherwise, GREAT JOB!!!
Here's one more for your consideration.
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn211/amadeus_rex/AleraPoliticalBasic.jpg
It's just a basic politcal map of Alera showing the locations of the cities as I see it. I also drew in the river Gaul. There are no boundries yet, as it seems that most are due to geographic features. Here's a question, does Alera Imperia have its own territory like the other Cities or is it (as I think) more akin to Washington DC with it being sperate from all the "States?" and having no real outlying areas of it's own?.
PS sorry I cut of the southern tip of Forica (but not by much)
Belgarion
Wasn't trying to take over anything. These are just ones I've been working on independently for a while. I made these maps for my own reference and decided to share them to show how I have seen things. I have read the .pdf file and this thread. Your general Alera map is very similar to how I've pictured it, and much more detailed (Some of the cities on mine are placed very generally). I really haven't had the time to put alot of work into the political map. The real difference here is that I see the Caldreon Valley different, based on the 4 or 5 times I've read the books. Unfortunately, alot of the directions and locals in the books are very general. Until Jim himself chooses to step in give a definative answer on anything, most of this is pure speculation and up for interpretation.
I wasn't looking to have you remove your maps. I guess I thought everyone was entitled to an opinion on a public forum. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to spare on this that others might, or I might have been posting more often and added my 2 cents worth sooner. I'll just continue my work for my own benefit and leave you to yours.
BTW, I use AutoRealm.
Concerning your question about the Icement and the Marat. I suppose the Sea of Ice could be an inland sea but I've never gotten that impression. I'm not so sure that the Marat don't have aquatic transport, since Kitai didn't get sick on the voyages like Tavi did. That doesn't prove or disprove anything, just a thought. Sorry about the double negatives. And yep, Kitai did use ropes made of Icemen hair. It's never been said whether they were acquired in trade or otherwise.
Mikey
3) There is no *evidence* the Marat are a seafaring people. The only thing Kitai's lack of mentioned seasickness can really give reasonable evidence towards is the fact that Kitai continues to be "awesome".
The continent next door is linked to the one Alera is on via a land bridge which is where you find the Calderon Valley--
Also, there is a line in FoC where Amara flies over the Sea of Ice to get to the Calderon Valley from in-country. That's part of the reason that the Valley's shape looks like it is
The continent next door is linked to the one Alera is on via a land bridge which is where you find the Calderon Valley--
Is there any issue with me switching the position of Phyridgia and Antillus? It would make certain things in PF easier to visualize if Antillus is the Shieldwall realm closest to both the Icemen AND the Marat...however the Marat and the Icemen manage to interact.
"Younger sister," Bernard said. "She and Isana were real close. I was off on my first tour with the Rivan Legions. We were way up by the Shieldwall, working with Phrygias troops against the icemen. Our parents had died a few years before, and when Isana went into service in the Legion camps, Alia went with her."
Max pursed his lips, then shrugged. "Wasn't me. There are a lot of Phrygians hereabouts. They hate slavers. Crows, plenty of folk do. I hear that Ceres has a whole big gang of men in masks who roam around at night and hang any slaver they can get their hands on. They have to employ a whole army of personal guards to stay safe. Gotta love a town like Ceres."
"So I'm Ehren," Max said, "with an unknown number of unknowns following me. Where do I go?" Max frowned. "Wait. What the crows am I doing all the way out here in the first place? I thought Ehren got sent to Phrygia."
"Did you notice that he packed those peppermints he kept around?" Tavi asked.
"Yes. I thought he liked peppermints."
"No. He gets seasick."
Max frowned. "But Phrygia's thousands of miles from the sea and—oh."
[P.S. I hope posting the images is cool. I used the img code and it seemed to be activated, so I figured it was ok. Its externally hosted, so there shouldn't be bandwidth issues as I understand it, but if this is a problem, just let me know and Ill edit them to links only]
Both the Phrygians and the Ceresians are violently anti-slavery, and geographic proximity might contribute to that. And if Phrygia is closer to Ceres, it might explain why there's something of an abundance of them at the Elinarch, even though the Elinarch is to the extreme south of Ceres.
Well, Princeps' Fury makes it fairly clear that Ceres is the the southeast of Alera Imperia. Jim even lists it among the southern cities here (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,840.msg161008.html#msg161008). We might also have to move Aquitaine a little more northerly, as that doesn't make the list.Theres very few ways I can envision to make Phrydgia and Ceres adjacent if that is true, and still satisfy all the other juggling that has to be done in that area, but I haven't sat down and tried to work it out on paper yet.
That's true of the existing map, but doesn't that need to be examined in light of what you said here:
If Ceres in in the Southeast, it screws all that up...not to mention confusing the entire issue of the Canim continent, since that's where they approach from.
Furthermore, if Ceres in in the Southeast, and coastal, I don't see how the Elinarch can be in the southern portion of it, as Cyril talks about moving west to the Elinarch in CuF, and how the Elinarch is on the only bridge on the entire *western leg* of the Tiber.
Unless those remarks are all relative, and not absolute.
*Sigh*, I give up. Somebody just make a map, and I'll paint it. ;)
Edit: OH. That idiot was ME. I meant that PF makes it clear Ceres is southwest of Alera Imperia. Yes, I have no concept of basic directions.
Max frowned. "But Phrygia's thousands of miles from the sea and—oh."
Revised the BW map:
http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3197405232/
1) This is what I was speaking about in my previous post. If Phyrigia is indeed "thousands of miles from the sea" ( I really have trouble reconciling this...maybe Max was exaggerating, but we have no way of knowing), we're going to have to significantly alter our image of the Aleran/ Iceman boundary and shieldwall. One way to push Phrydgia further inland would be to move Placida up and out as a buffer between the coast and Phrydgia.
Regardless, it forces us to define the shieldwall as something that does *not* run coast to coast, as otherwise, if there are only two shieldwall cities, then both of them would *have* to be adjacent to water. Perhaps the shieldwall is an earthcrafted barrier bookended by one or two naturally impassable mountain ranges.
2) Ceres evidently needs to be in the Southwest, and its still slightly north of Alera Imperia right now. In fact, I think all the "southern" cities need to shuffle counter clockwise a bit, and Alera Imperia need to move further north a bit in order to make the "southern" region easier to define. Theres another reason to move Alera Imperia a tad bit north as well, as Ill note in #3.
3.) I think Alera Imperia needs to get bumped up slightly north for a couple reasons. One, if you move Placida over a bit, it can move up and take over some of that vacated space. Two, it would make it easier to define Ceres as a southern/southwestern city. Three, the whole issue of Amara's flight... I still think Riva/Calderon need to come down a bit to make it possible for Amara to have flown over the sea of ice.
But check this out. I read the passage you cited in AF about how Amara flew over the Sea of Ice to get to Calderon/Garrison. But it says she flew along the *coastline* to the Sea of Ice, not necessarily across the water. Since she was serving as a liason between the Crown and Bernard, her most probable origin point was the Capitol. This is easier to reconcile...basically, as long as the Sea of Ice coast is more or less level with Alera Imperia, or maybe a little lower, its easy to see this flight.
4)Aquataine didnt make Jim's list of Southern Cities, so I think it has to come up to at least even with Alera Imperia, or a little north, and Rhodes moved a little west and up to ensure it stays adjacent to Aquataine at some point. It might require a little fidgeting with Riva.
5) In FoC, Amara describes Calderon as being the valley *beyond* the isthmus/ landbridge into the marat territory, not *on* it. More of a frontier. This might be your intention, but the way the land gets skinny again after Calderon confuses the issue a bit.
Originally, of course we had Phyrigia and Antillus reversed which could put Phyrigia a thousand miles from the sea (Max doesn't state which sea), I also had both the cities much closer together toward the center of the two states.
Thing is the land does get skinny again at the end of the valley. The Garrision blocks the Marat from coming into the valley and is situated at the opening between two mountain ranges. That's why the garrison is effective. We can reshape things a little but it's still a land bridge according to Jim. The valley is contained in the land bridge. The valley is west of the garrison not east of it.
I'll just rebut a couple quick points, and defer to you on the rest.
Yes, but its a remark concerning another characters seasickness, and how its possible for him to get seasick. So he's not referring to a specific sea so much, as suggesting Phrygia is "thousand of miles" from *water*. This suggests that no matter where we put Antillus, east or west, Phrygia has to be more centrally located, and "landlocked", which is a little tougher to visualize.
I'm afraid this is just an area where we would differ if I were drawing the map. Theres no reason it has to get skinny again...a "valley" is a U shaped depression in between mountains, so Garrison can still block the entrance fine if its situated between two mountain masses that are wider on either side. Calderon valley is simply the only path *through" those mountains.
If the valley, though, is *beyond* the isthmus, it means its west of Garrison, but "after" the skinniest point. If it gets skinny again after Calderon, it suggests that the isthmus is continuing beyond Calderon. It can still be a "land Bridge" between the 2 landmasses, without tapering it again after the isthmus.
A minor point to be sure. Thanks for taking the time to respond!
Yes, but its a remark concerning another characters seasickness, and how its possible for him to get seasick. So he's not referring to a specific sea so much, as suggesting Phrygia is "thousand of miles" from *water*. This suggests that no matter where we put Antillus, east or west, Phrygia has to be more centrally located, and "landlocked", which is a little tougher to visualize.( If Phrygia is touching a coastline, it *cannot* be "thousands of miles" from the sea...it cannot be a single mile from the sea).
The only I way I can see to make this true, is if Antillus is east, to bring Placida up as a buffer between the coast and Phrygia, and if Antillus is west, to stretch Riva up as a buffer. In either case, that would make one of those two cites touch the Icemen Border, but we know theyre not a shieldwall city. In that case, they probably need to bump up against some sort of impassable mountains that are not the shieldwall proper.
Have we ever had any indication that people sail on the Sea of Ice? I'm fairly certain that Max was referring to the sea to the west of Carna.
There is a difference between the cities themselves and the land around them. "Riva" can either refer to the city of Riva or the whole region that is politically represented by Lord Riva. Sure, Tavi is Rivan, but he doesn't live in the city of Riva. When Ehren told Max and Tavi that he was being sent to Phrygia, one would guess that he was being sent to the city of Phrygia, which I suppose could be thousands of miles from the ocean, without negating the possibility that there could be Phrygian land touching ocean.
...You know what? I think Jim screwed up that detail. I think we should just throw this clue out, frankly.
"Are you familiar with the significance of the Calderon Valley?"
Amara nodded once. "It lies just over the isthmus between Alera and the plains beyond."
Here's a modified version:
http://flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3199689044/
I moved Imperia a bit north, as well as Aquitaine and Riva, same for Placida, although I still think the way we originally had the two northern lords placed was more correct based on Max's comments.
Mikey
Hey, looking great! I, like Priscelle, think that is best if we just sort of set aside Max's comment for the time being. If we accept the premise that Max is speaking about Phyridgia the shieldwall city, and not Phyridgia the Realm, then Phridgia can be to the west of Antillus, and *still* be thousands of miles from the sea (either one), depending on how you draw your geography. And though there is nothing definitive, placing Antillus to the east makes PF slightly easier to visualize.
We can only guess at this stuff though, and you are, of course, free to draw your map any way you choose ;).
My only lingering nitpicks would be Priscelle's comment that Ceres is supposed to be southwestern. I think there must be some way to draw out the topography so that this is true, but your concerns about kalare are also addressed. Also, I'd still like to get Aquataine out of the south, since it didnt make Jim's list of southern cities.
Right now Im still designing the map's graphical elements, but when I'm done with that, I think we're close to having something I feel good about putting down on paper. When I do, I'll be sure to give you layout credit :)
Ok, some thoughts on the last Map.
I think Attica has to bee farther east.
- The Way its positioned right now, to get to Ceres Kalarus would have had to eiter a) move very close past Attica, or b) cross the Tiber at the Elinarch. Both of wich are highly unlikely.
As i understand it, the Elinarch should be on Ceresian territory.
- The holders Tavi meets, when first riding out to scout out the Canim, were expecting ceresian Legions.
I always pictured the Tiber running North of Ceres. (don't exactly know why, but thats the picture i had in Mind)
Placidian territory needs to reach further south, especially closer to Ceres.
- The Blackhills are at the southernmost end of placidian territory. Plus it only took the placidian Legions one day to get from the edge of placidian territory to Ceres.
What i dont get with the Blackhills, is how Aquitanes Legions cold be the ones to "crush the Legions holding the passes coming down from the Blackhills" as mentioned by Bernhard at the end of CuF.
Now while i write this, i get confused...
By assaulting the western foothills of Parcia, and diverting the Gaul to the Floodplain, One of K.'s legions managed to take control of the Blackhill Passes.(See CuF) Meaning that the Blackhills need to be near Parcia. That in addition would mean that Placidian territory needs to reach as far south as well, since the Blackhills are at the southern tip of Placidian territory.
Somehow the whole sections about the troop movements are kind of confusing to me. My main problem being that we don't have any hints as to where Attica actually is. Is it south or north of Parcia... The whole thing gets simpler if its south of Parcia, but that doesn't make sense in several other instances.
Ok, now my head hurts... i'll have to think all this over again. Hope i'm not to confusing to anyone else *g*
Found something to support my Tiber-in-the-north-of-Ceres Theory.
In CuF, Cyril says the following: "If they take the Elinarch, they'll run right through Placidas heartlands on the north side, and with the river protecting their flank, they'll be able to lay waste to Ceres' lands on the south."
This indicates to me that the Tiber hast to be at least in the northern part of ceresian lands, if not form the border between Ceres and Placida.
As i see it, the Canim wanted to control the Elinarch because the Alerans otherwise could deploy forces in their back, not because the want to get to Alera Imperia.
That's indicated by Ehren saying "... It's obvious that they must control the Elinarch, or risk being attacked from several directions."
iirc the way to the capital being free for Kalares Legions is connected to taking Ceres. The Elinarch isn't mentioned in that case. So it could well be north of Ceres.
I totaly agree that atticas lands have to reach close in to Kalare, but that does not necessarily mean that the City of Attica itself needs to be so close.
The Blackhills... well it's a mystery :-)
Ok. I'm looking. I just wish we had a chat room where we could all get together and hash this thing out. Everytime we look at the map, there are several different ideas about the locations of Ceres, Atticus, Kalare, Elinarch, Alera Imperia, etc.
Darn
Mikey
One Chatroom, coming up.
Join via Web Interface (http://www.musterpuffer.de/alera/chat.html)
For those who wish to use their own IRC client, connect to irc.newnet.net and join #alera
Why is Cannea still so small? I might be completely wrong, but isn't it suppose to dwarf Alera?
One Chatroom, coming up.
Join via Web Interface (http://www.musterpuffer.de/alera/chat.html)
For those who wish to use their own IRC client, connect to irc.newnet.net and join #alera
Instead of making the Sea of Ice a giant lake, why not just make the Sea of Ice thinner? It's called Sea of Ice for a reason, especially with the ability of the Icemen isn't it rather likelythat both sides can just walk across it up north close to the polar region? There might even be settlements of the Icemen on the other side.
it's supposed to take place some day in the last two weeks of February, starting at around 3pm Eastern US time (hey, we europeans want to participate as well ;) )
Those who want to join, please mark your available dates here: http://www.doodle.com/bvki5848gi7fk2uf (http://www.doodle.com/bvki5848gi7fk2uf)
I agree. I think the Sea of Ice can be much smaller, more along the lines of Lake Superior, to facilitate Icemen-Marat interaction. If you consider the itsy bit dividing Lake Superior and Michigan/Huron, you have an isthmus like what connects Alera to the Marat lands.
Kath
Is there any way to change an entry? I looked at the dates, but didn't check the time. :-[ Can't make 3pm EST.
Is there any way to change an entry? I looked at the dates, but didn't check the time. :-[ Can't make 3pm EST.
That answers my question! Yeah, 3pm EST would probably be ideal.I'm in the Philippines, so 3pm EST is 4am here. Since Kokolores and Tsunami probably have more value-add, I'll just bow out.
I'm in the Philippines, so 3pm EST is 4am here. Since Kokolores and Tsunami probably have more value-add, I'll just bow out.
Kath
Darn. Wish there was a way to get this figured out. I'll see if I can figure out how to log the session so we have a transcript to be able to send you.
Thanks, I'd appreciate it. A transcript would be good in any case, so you'll have something to refer to when tweaking the map.
Kath
No clue if someone's said this before, but, in the books, it was mentioned that Canea was several times larger than alera (or some similar thing ;D) so, shouldn't it appear bigger on the map? Just a thought.
Word from Jim: Antillus is indeed in the northwest, and Riva is toward the northeast. I think Tsunami has the right idea about the two cities. I'll take a closer look at this new proposal when I get home from work. What are your green lines meant to signify, Tsunami?
Ok, seems like i had a lot of spare time... well, not really, wich is why i passed my exams just barely this semester. :-)
On the other hand, i used the spare time i didn't actually have to dabble in the dark arts of Map-Making
I made a version of Alera with AutoRealm, and incorporated my ideas in it. I find it much easier to show my point if anyone can see what I'm talking about, so here it goes.
(Everything is of course still subject to change due to the Map Discussion Chat)
http://www.musterpuffer.de/JB/codex/alera.jpg
- Kalare attacks the "Foothills of Parcia" - so Parcia now touches Karale
- Atticus goes Accros the Floodplain to get to Kalares Legions - Floodplain moved accordingly (green arrows indicationg troop movements in CuF)
- Blackhills moved to southern Placida
- The Tiber now more or less forms the Border between Ceres and Placida
- To get all this done i moved the bordersin the western part around a little.
Plus:
I moved Calderon more to the North, it just feels like beeing more northerly. Following that i moved borders a bit for Aquitane and Riva.
Known issue:
Position of the Blackhills, and how Aquitane could be the one to take them back in CuF
Ok, seems like i had a lot of spare time... well, not really, wich is why i passed my exams just barely this semester. :-)
Oh and congrats on passing the exams. That's a big step :>). High fives Tsunami.Thanks, passing it was really all that mattered, since nobody will ever ask about the grade in this particular exam ever again. :D
Any idea whether kokolores passed hers?No idea.
Nice job.Thanks
I like it, although I have to go through the text in detail now. I've got some thoughts, just haven't been able to sit down at the puter for very long due to a stomach virus. I've lost 10 pounds in about 5 days of this thing.Eager to hear them, and get well soon.
First thought is to label the isthmus between Alera and Calderon. Oh, and the black hills should be labeled (at least I think they are the black hills) but those are nits.Yeah, still working on the nits ;)
Its something about the positioning of Ceres and Founderport and the Tiber.Yupp, thats the only real major change i made in the Map, the rest is mostly cosmetics.
Anyway, give me a couple of days to look and do searches.Sure, take your time, no rush.
I've been thinking about the further development of the Map, and aside from all the discussion about what should be where, i think we need to look at the scale of the Map.
For Example: Calderon Valley.
In FoC i get the impression that the holders of calderon expected to get word to Riva in a manner of days by sending out riders.
That leads to me picturing Calderon Valley as being somewhere between 100 and 200 miles long.
The relative Dimensions we have right now would then put the width of Alera as a whole at about three times that distance, but we've seen plenty of indication that it is much bigger (i.e. Antillus being thousands of miles from the sea)
Yet, we cannot simply make the scale of the Map bigger, because that would lead to Calderon being more than a thousand miles long, and thats far to big for my taste. Especially when you take into consideration that most people in FoC traveled without the use of Furycraft for the better part of the time.
Sadly, distances are usualy only vaguely described in the Books, off the top of my head i can only think of a few instances:I bet there are more, but i don't remember them right now.
- Founderport being about 20 miles from the Elinarch.
- The First Aleran being the only Legion in a 800 mile Radius, wich leads me to believe that Ceres should be about that far away from the Elinarch, since i see it as the closest big city.
- Gaius/Amara/Bernard starting their trek at about 300 miles southwest of Kalare.
most other times Distance is referenced as Time-Travelled, wich is a bit difficult to put into a map.
Ok, whats the point of all this?
I guess to show that we need to take a look at distances in general in this World, and that i think that Calderon is to big right now :-)
I'm not sure if this is the place to request this, but would someone be able to show me on one of the maps how much of Alera is under Vord control?
We don't know exactly. At the end of PF we learn that its perhaps a quarter of the realm.
"He gestured at the sand table. Isana came over to it and saw a map of the entire Realm laid out
in the sand.
A quarter of it, perhaps more, was colored in croach green."
We know the Vord have taken what has been Kalare and overrun Ceres. They assaulted Alera Imperia, but without spreading the croach that far.
So, here is my guess at what terriories the Vord have taken so far.
http://www.musterpuffer.de/JB/codex/alera-vord.jpg
And it really is nothing more than a guess at this point.
I've added in more detail from PF. Additional cities and corrected the name of Mount Kalarus to Mount Kalus.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/3206669383/
M
We don't know exactly. At the end of PF we learn that its perhaps a quarter of the realm.
"He gestured at the sand table. Isana came over to it and saw a map of the entire Realm laid out
in the sand.
A quarter of it, perhaps more, was colored in croach green."
We know the Vord have taken what has been Kalare and overrun Ceres. They assaulted Alera Imperia, but without spreading the croach that far.
So, here is my guess at what terriories the Vord have taken so far.
http://www.musterpuffer.de/JB/codex/alera-vord.jpg
And it really is nothing more than a guess at this point.
Cute fish :~)
So, are we thinking the map chat will be on Saturday the 28th?
That seems to be the day that all of us are available including Priscellie.
Anyone else interested, is definitely welcome. The more the merrier.
Mikey
/*puts on his cartographer's hat */
I'll have to spoil that plan... :(
There will be a LARP meeting i'll be going to on the 28th... sorry about that, it just came up yesterday.
I changed my availability in the Doodle-poll to avoid further confusion.
But there are other Days that are still possible, the 27th has the same availability for example. At least according to doodle.
If that doesn't work, well there will be more than one session i presume.
*steals Mikey's hat* hey, i always wanted one of those ;D
Darn. I was trying to keep the chat on the weekend so Priscellie can moderate and keep us all playing nice. That's the basic problem.I suppose we could do Friday the 27th, I just don't know what time she gets home from work. If we start the chat like around 6:00 or 6:30 Eastern US time, what time is it for you and Koko?
I'm assuming LARP is Live Action Role Playing ? And who was scheduled first? Hmmmm.
Mikey
/* Puts on his Master cartographers hat, not the apprentice one Tsunami borrowed */
I get off of work at 7 EST and don't get home until 7:40, which I know is way too late for those overseas. Go ahead and plan for the 27th at 3pm EST or whatever is most convenient for everyone, and I'll peek my head in occasionally and shout silly things from the sidelines. :D
Darn. I was trying to keep the chat on the weekend so Priscellie can moderate and keep us all playing nice. That's the basic problem.I suppose we could do Friday the 27th, I just don't know what time she gets home from work. If we start the chat like around 6:00 or 6:30 Eastern US time, what time is it for you and Koko?We are at GMT+1 wich puts us 6 hours before EST, so 6:00 would be Midnight for us. We can probably shedule a session for a time like thin sometime, but on the 27th it would be impractical, at least for me, due to the aforementioned LARP meeting.
I'm assuming LARP is Live Action Role Playing ? And who was scheduled first? Hmmmm.You assume correctly. And actually the LARP was scheduled long before, since its every month. ;)
MikeyHey... no fair... *g* Ah well... Honor where honor is due
/* Puts on his Master cartographers hat, not the apprentice one Tsunami borrowed */
We are at GMT+1 wich puts us 6 hours before EST, so 6:00 would be Midnight for us. We can probably shedule a session for a time like thin sometime, but on the 27th it would be impractical, at least for me, due to the aforementioned LARP meeting.You assume correctly. And actually the LARP was scheduled long before, since its every month. ;)Hey... no fair... *g* Ah well... Honor where honor is due
*salutes the Master-hat*
Oh and congrats on passing the exams. That's a big step :>). High fives Tsunami.
Any idea whether kokolores passed hers?
Mikey
Yeah I did. Thanks for asking. Although I've only gotten the results of one, I'm sure I've passed the other four as well. By the way I'm a guy.
Kokolores is a german slang which can mean something like senseless blather or stupid jokes. Neither of those is really accurate it's pretty much impossible to translate it.
I'm free until mid of march. So whenever is fine with me I can arrange my planning as long as I know of it beforehand.
By the way I like that new map.
Riva is Red and Gold.
No love on Ceres.
Jupp, it's a know issue, we've already decided to make it smaller during our Map-Chat session.
I just haven't gotten around to incorporating these changes yet. I hope to find the time this weekend.
Plus:
Ahhhh... SCALE !! AAAHHHHAAHHHH *runs away screaming in panic*
;D
Ok, it took a while, but here is the Updated version of the map.
http://www.musterpuffer.de/JB/codex/alera.jpg
@Fellow Map chat participants: If i missed anything, please let me know. (I bet i did, i always do :-) )
Its a basic version, no occupations and or major destructions have been included. I will post individual Maps for those.
So there will be a map for CuF and CaF showing Canim territory, and there will be one for PF showing croach spread.
Once i have finished them *g*
Thanks. When the First Lord's Fury comes out in November, we'll be able to finish up the maps (I hope) and add in all the little details that pop up, like the colors.
Mikey
I doubt the Vord have overrun quite so much. They've pretty much concentrated their forces to overwhelm the Aleran legions so they shouldn't have expanded all that much in the other directions. They have Kalare's former territories and a long thin corridor from Ceres to Alera Imperia.
He gestured at the sand table. Isana came over to it and saw a map of the entire Realm laid out
in the sand.
A quarter of it, perhaps more, was colored in croach green.
Would it be cheating to ask him to put a detailed map in the next book?
nice. I'd love to see how many of our ideas will actually end up being used.
Some notes on the map, mostly two parts I'm not 100% about. Probably already been approached.
On the map Phrygia borders the sea of ice, yet Max states 'Phrygia's thousands of miles form the sea' ... and I just noticed he was probably referencing the city, not the territory.
The second thing I just an assumption I've always had which conflicts with this map. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/2089370713/) and a few others. The Marat use rope made from the hair of the icemen. So I always assumed the marat territory shared a border with the icemen's territory, on the other side of the sea of ice.
Also, I would think that the cites of Antillus and Phrygia should be closer to the shieldwall to make it easier for the high lords to stay on the Shieldwall most of the time, but that's my opinion. I don't have any references or anything. What do you all think?
Hi everyone, I am new here, and I wanted to let you all know that I really appreciate what you have done so far. I use your maps whenever I am reading the series. One thing I wanted to mention to help out, on page 381 of Princep's Fury, it is said that
Amara asked where the survivors of the battle would go, and Bernard said that they would take the causeway north into the redhill heights, and then east toward Aquitaine or northeast toward Riva.
based on some of the maps, I think that
Aquitaine and Riva should be further north. Just the cities, not the territories.
Also, I would think that the cites of Antillus and Phrygia should be closer to the shieldwall to make it easier for the high lords to stay on the Shieldwall most of the time, but that's my opinion. I don't have any references or anything. What do you all think?
Well in all three of those maps Aquitaine(territory and city) should be further north. The actual city of Riva should be more to the north as well, I don't believe that the city is situated directly in front of Calderon.
How far can three legions force march over a causeway in one day?
Totaly unrelated:
Just to note something down i saw while rereading AF before i forget it again: Mountains west of the Capital, mentioned during the party at Kalares townhouse.
That's something that bugs me a little with the maps. It's the Calderon Valley, so it should have mountains on almost every side of it, not the ocean to the south that gets shown.
My opinion is that there's something called the edit button, well it's modify button on this forum
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21582563@N03/2113120395/ Map of Calderon Valley
2. CuF: www.musterpuffer.de/JB/codex/alera-CuF.jpg
Still doesn't sit right, that the Valley is surrounded by water but not mountains. Isana states that she had never swum in anything larger then a lake or a river, but according to the map Bernardholt/isanaholt is pretty close to the sea of ice, closer then it is to other holts. How come there are only a few mountains shown in the area.
Still doesn't sit right, that the Valley is surrounded by water but not mountains. Isana states that she had never swum in anything larger then a lake or a river, but according to the map Bernardholt/isanaholt is pretty close to the sea of ice, closer then it is to other holts. How come there are only a few mountains shown in the area.
*Wishes he had anything close to talent to sketch a rough map and show what he means*
Actually, I had lots of mountains in one of my original Calderon Valley map, but we had a number of comments that said there were too many and that they were too high. I had the mountains both to the North, South and East. I left the West relatively open.
3. The Vord (Alera & Canea): www.musterpuffer.de/JB/codex/alera-vord.jpg
Yup. Aquitaine should be almost directly east, whereas Riva is more to the northeast of Alera Imperia. I quite like the concept of how the isthmus between the two continents and the mountain range surrounding Calderon relate, though.
Didn't Tavi have to go through a river, and over a forest to get to Garrison in the first book?
What i never understood is where the idea came from, that the causeway is running in a circle through the valley.
Can someone give me quote from the books on that ? Just so i can catch on.
Aye, it was Rillwater. There's also a lake or two around there, too, lol
No quote. It just seemed to fit the textual descriptions. If you have a better idea, I'm all for it.I always pictured Calderon Valley as being rather narrow, compared to its length, with the causeway running through it from west to east, linking Garrison to Riva. Thats the picture i have in mind. Wich makes sense to me, because the roads main purpose is to move troops quickly between important positions.
I took a look at the Roman roads both in Britain and in Italy, they seemed to go in a circular path around the country linking the major cities.Makes sense, but right now the Causeway seems to link the Steadholds. I just cant picture that in Alera.
Mikey
I always pictured Calderon Valley as being rather narrow, compared to its length, with the causeway running through it from west to east, linking Garrison to Riva. Thats the picture i have in mind. Wich makes sense to me, because the roads main purpose is to move troops quickly between important positions.Makes sense, but right now the Causeway seems to link the Steadholds. I just cant picture that in Alera.
Picture a citizen: "You want to build a very expensive road so that some lowly steadholders can visit each other more easily??... i don't think so."
More likely the causeway came first, after Garrison was established, and the steadholds settled along the causeway. Wich again is an argument for the causeway leading straight to Garrison. Why build a circular causeway if you just want a quick way to Garrison?
I understand what you're saying but it just didn't appear to me like that. We could experiment by making a straight line causeway and then have individual lanes running to each steadholt. I'd have to see if that matches up to the textual descriptions.
Mikey
whoever was responsible for map of Alera did an amazing job...just brilliant
Actually, there are a lot of people who have worked on the map here. Tsunami and I were just the ones who put together the electronic versions.
We have map threads going back a couple of years. I can't wait to see the map that is coming in the final Alera volume.
Mikey
Seconded, I'm very interested to see how much of our input made its way into Priscellie's creation.
where is the map now?
can't find it anywhere! or where was the announcement! any link plz!
The fan-made map is in the first post of this thread. My map won't be revealed until the book comes out on November 24th.
I am a terrible person. :D
(http://theninemuses.net/pics/tease.jpg)
I am a terrible person. :DYes you are! Well done! ;)
I am a terrible person. :D
(http://theninemuses.net/pics/tease.jpg)
*griiiiiins* How did I know someone would try to analyze the image, and how did I guess it would be you?
I'm so excited for you to see it, Mikey. The whole map project owes you a huge debt of gratitude.
Awwwwe, shucks mam. /* blushes rubbing the toe of his shoe in the virtual dirt. */
I think the three of us, Tsunami, and Kokolores have been at it from the beginning. One of the fun things I do in retirement. heeee.
Awwwwe, shucks mam. /* blushes rubbing the toe of his shoe in the virtual dirt. */
I think the three of us, Tsunami, and Kokolores have been at it from the beginning. One of the fun things I do in retirement. heeee.
......(click to show/hide)
... I bet two weeks of forum abstinence that they are(click to show/hide)(click to show/hide)
I can stay, I can stay !! Hooray ;D
All, I've been looking at our maps as a precursor to the "book" one, and comparing it to the chapters so far. I think we need to move Antillus much closer to the West coast, like on it.
"If he'd been landing in Canea with the last survivors of all Alera, he wouldn't have debarked them on open ground only five miles from the most warlike city on the continent, either."
The first several or so paragraphs in FLF Ch 4 are a pretty good description of their lz.
Mikey
I'm going to see if I can badger Jim into letting me post the map this Tuesday, rather than on the 24th. :D
Bows down to her worshipness.
Let me know and I can pop it in the first entry in the thread.
We have now hit slightly over 34000 views of the map threads, 1st and 2nd included.
Mikey
That's insane! Bravo!
Woohoo, Jim gave me the go-ahead! The map will be posted midnight MST on Tuesday the 17th, like the sample chapters have been.Can't remember, did you say you did it in color?
I like B&W, I still take a lot of pictures that way. Can't figure out my fascination with it.It's good for parties. You don't get the alcohol induced 'redface' if there isn't red in the pictures!
I like B&W, I still take a lot of pictures that way. Can't figure out my fascination with it.The word "clean" comes to mind.
Woohoo, Jim gave me the go-ahead! The map will be posted midnight MST on Tuesday the 17th, like the sample chapters have been.
Woohoo, Jim gave me the go-ahead! The map will be posted midnight MST on Tuesday the 17th, like the sample chapters have been.
Nope, it's in B&W.
What about 3-D?
Somehow the Leviathan just made me think: What's Great A'Tuin doing on Carna ?? ;D
Ok, above all things, let me say:
I love It !!
General style... great
We get to see Canim and Marat... great
Its totally Alera centered... great
The Leviathan is just way too cute... great :-)
Calderon Valley is quite different from how I pictured it, but that does in no way diminish the greatness of the Map.
Wonderful work Priscellie.
A'Froin?Ok, this is either a reference I don't know, or wordplay to obscure for my knowledge of English.
Ok, this is either a reference I don't know, or wordplay to obscure for my knowledge of English.
Or I'm just to stupid.
I don't get it ???
A'Tuin and A'Froin. A to-ing and a fro-ing. (http://dictionary.weather.net/dictionary/to-ing%20and%20fro-ing)And the Obscure Wordplay Award goes to...
*crickets chirp*
And the Obscure Wordplay Award goes to...
;D
Will the map become availible as some sort of printed poster or something like that from the Jim Butcher store?
The Official Map is here!
I've since spotted that the Redhill Heights are on the wrong side of Alera Imperia, and I neglected to label the Rillwater, but I'm still feeling fine! I'll let you discover the Easter Eggs for yourselves. :D
Keep looking, Mikey. Keep looking midway between Rhodes and Aquitaine. :D
Keep looking, Mikey. Keep looking midway between Rhodes and Aquitaine. :DHELFSTEIN!
HELFSTEIN!
That's new right? We'll be sailing again then?!
Actually the map traced pretty good in Illustrator given enough tweaking. I still have to find the right fonts to pull it off but still...
Whoa! There are two Marsfords'. eeek.
Will the map become availible as some sort of printed poster or something like that from the Jim Butcher store?
High Fives Tsu and Koko !!!!! Woohoo!!!
"Shout-outs go to forum members Belgarion, Kokolores, and Tsunami for their exceptional work on the fan-made map, which served as a great reference point for the project."
Mikey
To be fair, I'm pretty sure that the name "A'Tuin" comes from "A to-ing," as he goes a to-ing and a fro-ing around the universe. Why won't you back me up, Annotated Pratchett File? *shakes fist*This merits an additional "Obscure Reference/Trivia Award" :D
:o Whoa... totally missed that over the download frenzy I was in.
High Five indeed !!
*swells with pride* :)
Man, did Tavi grow up in the ass-end of nowhere.
Yep he pretty much did. As far as nowhere that you could get in Alera.
Well, Bernardholt is the westernmost steadholt in the Calderon Valley. He could have grown up in Kordholt or Garrison!
Very cool! Much studying to follow!
Am I seeing correctly that even the borders represent the different fury types?
What is the bird-looking thing with the marat?
Awesome Map!!!! ;D
Great Job, Priscellie!!! ;D
Excellent Work, to all the fan mappers!!! I have enjoyed watching the maps mature in this thread!!
I wish I had that much artistic talent.
Siincerely,
Bryan
Wow the shield wall covers a lot of real estate.
First off, Awsom map Pris, However, I do have a question, I thought just from reading the book that the feaverthorn Jungle was nearer Caldron, like somewhere near Bernard holt. Or was that a different set of woods that only Bernard could travel through? Also Isn't Appia where the first aleran were fighting in captians fury, or was that a different set of ruins?
First off, Awsom map Pris, However, I do have a question, I thought just from reading the book that the feaverthorn Jungle was nearer Caldron, like somewhere near Bernard holt. Or was that a different set of woods that only Bernard could travel through? Also Isn't Appia where the first aleran were fighting in captians fury, or was that a different set of ruins?
Most cities of the appropriate Earth era are either coastal or on a major navigable river that has uninterrupted access to the sea.
Excepting Appia. There is no mention of it being on a major river or water source. I'm still searching the text for this.
Might be why it was eventually abandoned or possibly it wasn't defensible.
Mikey
I put Appia on a river because a proto-Aleran city would have needed a water source. Just because there's no mention of a nearby water source in the text doesn't mean there isn't one. :D
oh right! What's a cubit?
Excepting Appia. There is no mention of it being on a major river or water source. I'm still searching the text for this.
Might be why it was eventually abandoned or possibly it wasn't defensible.
Mikey
oh right! What's a cubit?
Sorta why I said "most". ;D
1 cubit = 45.72 centimeters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit
Why is the Princep's Memorum on the west side of the Garrison? If the Marat showed up in FOC wouldn't it be more to the east? I doubt that the Marat could of crossed the Garrison and all those steadholts unnoticed without attacking anyone or being seen. I Always thought the Garrison would be to the west and the steadholts were on its eastern side.
On a loosely related note.
What strikes me as odd is the fact that Kordholt (later Aricholt) is so far from Garados. They used it as base to hunt the Vord on Garados... makes no sense for it to be so far away.
But like I said before, the whole of Calderon deviates from how I pictured it myself.
I bet Jim did this on purpose... he wants to confuse us. :-)
They went to Aricholt because Aric came and said "I haz problems, helps plzthnks" and then they found it abandoned and vord-infested. After which they decided to press on, not because that was the best base but because it would take too long to go elsewhere. Necessity, rather than convenience.
My question is, why did the Vord, in setting up on Garados, ignore the 2 or 3 steadholts they had to go right past to GET to Aricholt in AF...
What strikes me as odd is the fact that Kordholt (later Aricholt) is so far from Garados. They used it as base to hunt the Vord on Garados... makes no sense for it to be so far away.
But like I said before, the whole of Calderon deviates from how I pictured it myself.
I bet Jim did this on purpose... he wants to confuse us. :-)
FRAK. Aricholt should be Aldoholt on my map.
As for why the vord chose to attack Aricholt in the first place, simple. It's the most isolated. The Queen is nothing if not opportunistic. Perhaps she considered it a test run. Then, with her forces swollen with a new army of Taken, she picked a more central location as her base of power, from which she could be poised to attack any other steadholt with ease.
As for why the vord chose to attack Aricholt in the first place, simple. It's the most isolated. The Queen is nothing if not opportunistic. Perhaps she considered it a test run. Then, with her forces swollen with a new army of Taken, she picked a more central location as her base of power, from which she could be poised to attack any other steadholt with ease.That's logical, and makes a lot of sense.
That's logical, and makes a lot of sense.
So here comes my however. (i was gonna write "my but" first, but rejected it as... aehm ok, where was i...)
They way it is now, it's not the most isolated. In fact of all the stedholts it's closest to Garrison... not an ideal target for a silent infiltration.
Ok now... Self! Stop nitpicking!
Self: No, i don't want to !!
Yes!! No Yes No Yes
In case i can't control myself in the future, let me repeat it once more.
The Map is great.
I'm a Casual-Perfectionist... sometimes... and the map has me hooked in that regard.
i especially liked the Marat and Canim figures. Hope iceman wont see this map. They are excluded :D
Thanks! Not sure why Jim didn't want me to draw one of the Icemen. Poor dears. :D
I'm convinced they're up there, we just can't see them in all the snow.
Either that, or they're chillin with those bunnies...
Oh geez, the bunnies have made it to the map thread! I thought we had avoided the bunnies attention.
All that water crafting is making the ice people (gotta be politically correct) invisible. Or it's the tears in my eyes.
Well, Jim DID say that FLF was going to be all about bunnies. Not his fault if we can't see them. :D
Wight! Takes out a bunny wabbit gun! Where are dem wabbits?Don't even bother - they multiply too fast. As soon as I whacked the head off one fluffy intruder with my slipper, two of his friend were already at my feet trying to nibble my toes off.
Love the map, it's pretty fraking amazing, a few things though... Whats the sickly yellow smudge in the feverthorn jungle? and on that note, the placement of the feverthorn jungle makes it look like it would be in Aquitaine's domain... but we know its in Rhodes...
Last nit picky thing.... the placement of Phrygia bugs me... I always pictured it a bit closer to Antillus than that. If for no other reason that to make it easier to respond to major attacks in the middle of the Wall...
But over all, amazing work. Thank you everyone who helped make it possible
in response to the last point... could the Wall also be crafted like the Elinarch or the Causeways? It makes sense when you think about it... lol And i understood that the jungle was between the two, it just seems like it should have been slightly closer to Rhodes that Aquitaine.
Ah, I see where you would get that idea! The Sea of Ice isn't sailed on, though. It actually freezes up to five or six miles from shore during the winter.
And I love the nitpicks. It's fun to be on the opposite side of the detail interrogation for once! :D
Well then I must ask, Did you Order the Code Red!?
It's more a matter of terrain than pure proximity. Much of Aquitaine is heavily mountained. The area surrounding the Feverthorn Jungle is more typical of Rhodes, which is comparatively flatter. It's notable for its orchards and fruit production, and so also for its wines.
Does peppermint help against seasickness? And if Tavi knows about this, what possible reason could he have for not packing some himself during Princep's Fury?
Code Red?Quoting a Few Good men with Tom Cruise when he was grilling Jack Nicholson. "Did you order the code red?"
Quoting a Few Good men with Tom Cruise when he was grilling Jack Nicholson. "Did you order the code red?"
Kind of degressing, buuut, While I don't want the series to end, I hope that it goes out in a bang. Like maybe since the two groups are pretty much cut off from each other the Canim, Free Aleran, and First Aleran fight down through the vale into the Wastes south of Kalare, and possibly put up a brave and heroic last push, while everyone else pretty much does a reenactment of the Alamo at Garrison. I just think that everyone dieing and ending out the story that way would be the best way. lol
I'm a HEA guy. I want the bad guys/gals to get iced and the good guys/gals to go on..
I don't want to see everyone die.(click to show/hide)
Edit: I'd rather keep details from spoilery reviews behind a spoiler-block. Some folks are sensitive about those kinds of details. --Priscellie
You don't know that.(click to show/hide)
Here's the real final paragraph:(click to show/hide)
;D
Here's the real final paragraph:(click to show/hide)
;D
why would they speak english? Anglish as it was called back then was a barbarian tounge. No self respecting Roman would speak it.
Psh, thats only cause of some type of universal translator device. But as I have yet to see a Babel Fish in the series, (my personal favorite such device), I still hold that they do not speak English, Or latin. Personally I think they speak Aleran, a mongrel mix of Latin, French, German, Greek, and English. Because remember, these boys aren't from Rome per se.... they are just a Legion who got picked up and deposited in the back end of no where.
Well, sure; even Latin as given by the HRC church evolved over the centuries. Didn't say it wouldn't change, but remember that true outside influences in Alera were at zero and that such evolution would be entirely internal... i.e., within the Latin itself.
Yes, but again, without truly external influences (i.e., a lot of contact with entire NATIONS that speak a different language, not a few people inside a Legion who will be speaking Latin by default as explained), the evolution will be internal and therefore slower and less pronounced. And finally, please remember that I said "Latin", not "entirely unchanged over two millennia Latin".
Wait, what about Cannim and the Marat? Aren't they external, or are they too different to make a difference?
There would definitely be some departure from the Latin we know. At the very least, I expect a few words from other languages spoken by the troops and camp followers would have snuck in where no Latin word existed, and new words had to be coined over the centuries (like, y'know, "furycraft").
i love the twist this has taken....
There would definitely be some departure from the Latin we know. At the very least, I expect a few words from other languages spoken by the troops and camp followers would have snuck in where no Latin word existed, and new words had to be coined over the centuries (like, y'know, "furycraft").
Here's the real final paragraph:(click to show/hide)
;D
(click to show/hide)
Blame Jim. I used to be a sweet and gentle soul... until he got me hooked on used writer's crack.Your not alone there!
*stumbles blearily around beta site, jonesing for another hit*Isn't he getting close to his deadline for "Changes"?
*stumbles blearily around beta site, jonesing for another hit*
I don't drink coffee. Or any form of caffeine, for that matter, save what can be found in hot chocolate. :D
...I love you?
*guzzles*
Isn't he getting close to his deadline for "Changes"?
You're a funny one. Jim laughs at deadlines.Seems to me I recall him saying something along those lines in an interview or such.
... well, it's nervous and slightly hysterical laughter, but laughter nonetheless. :D
Seems to me I recall him saying something along those lines in an interview or such.
All I know as a beta is that the man's a frickin' writing machine when deadlines are trying to jump on his head.
I expect I missed it somewhere in the 42 pages of posts, but what program did you use to make the maps?
although this is possibly not the correct place to say this I just thought i would pop in and I noticed the map on the main page, its beautiful, a true work of art and congrats and thanks to everyone involved, i know personally it will make reading CA far more enjoyable being able to visualise the locations etc of the events as they unfold and will be a godsend for getting more of my friends into the series ;D
I use a combination of Adobe Photoshop, Corel Painter, Google Earth, and the Mac grab application. And of course use my wacom tablet.
Actually, this is the second incarnation of the map thread. The first incarnation got so large that it became unmanageable.
Tsu uses a different Windows based program for his contributions. At the moment I'm having a difficult time putting my hand on his post about what program he uses. I know it's not Profantasy.
Found it, he uses AutoREALM.
I find it funny - I have an easier time with both Campaign Cartographer & Fractal Mapper than I do with AutoREALM.Oh, AutoREALM manages to make me scream here and there, but it has one major advantage over CC & FM... it's Free-Software. :-)
Then again, I'm a draftsman by trade, so maybe using both AutoCad & Revit constantly has something to do with my preferences.
Thanks for the info.
Oh, AutoREALM manages to make me scream here and there, but it has one major advantage over CC & FM... it's Free-Software. :-)
although this is possibly not the correct place to say this I just thought i would pop in and I noticed the map on the main page, its beautiful, a true work of art and congrats and thanks to everyone involved, i know personally it will make reading CA far more enjoyable being able to visualise the locations etc of the events as they unfold and will be a godsend for getting more of my friends into the series ;D
TSU! Have you heard from Koko at all? He should be basking in the glory also ;)Nope, nothing. His Profile marks him as being last active on November 19th... so he should have had his share of glory.
Mikey
I have already mentioned it in other locations, but WOW.
The map is wonderful and I don't think it would have happened if *some* people weren't obsessed fans! :P
Though I don't remember Helfstein in the book.... ;)
Still have it up as my wallpaper at home and at work; my work computer, a Mac, has the capacity to switch the wallpaper periodically, so it's cycling between the map and the cover.
Ah, someone else who's almost obsessed as me :) I have all Alera series covers cycling, and have now included the map.
Mikey
*gives Craig a cookie*
*accepts cookie, makes happy sea lion noises*
You think I would have noticed that sooner, considering I saw the map in advance, and we'd discussed it ad nauseum.
In fact, does this mean I'm thick, and am only just getting it now ???
Nooooo, that wasn't meant to come off as insulting! I was teasing. And when I go into mapquee mode, I tend to make people's eyes glaze over a bit. I don't expect you to recall every last detail of my madness. :D
First, let me say that this series ranks way high on my list of most favorite scifantasy stories. I love the good guys, the bad guys, the dance of intention/information, wow! Everytime a new book comes out, I reread several of the older ones. But darn it, the map doesn't rank anywhere near the story.
Okay, the map is really pretty, I like the shading, font & illustrations of Marat & Canem. It is very visually pleasing at first glance. I also really like having it, I had everything pictured backwards (the west is always the frontier to me, but jeez, that's because I grew up in the West!) But speaking as a geologist, it always surprises me how many authors/illustrators make dumb maps. Honestly, pick up a real map & then do some splicing or have the map checked by someone who thinks about stuff like gravity & glaciation & plate techtonics!
Most of the time they do bad things with water. That is this map's problem. Rivers start in topography, not in the flats. They can bisect topography (ie canyon) but that's hard to do realistically at this scale. Rivers that come from mountains have speed, they don't tend to build the Mississippi style delta that you see coming out of Kalare. Those tend to happen with lower relief, bigger drainage rivers like, well, the Mississippi (maybe the Gaul could have ended that way, or the Tiber). Lakes are also pretty rare in real geography--think about it, they are either in the mountains (glaciation) or they are reservoirs (man made). Okay, the Great Lakes of North America aren't in a very mountainous region, but they are glacier made. Unless a lake is important to the story, I'd say skip it, as they are really hard to get right.
The Calderon valley looks weird in the big map, although they put in a bunch of hill/mountain symbols in the blow up. That makes it better but it would have been even better to have the Redhill Heights range trend that way.
Sorry to be so picky, but when you soak in all the great attention to detail in the words & plot line, it wrenches to see lack of detail in the map.
First, let me say that this series ranks way high on my list of most favorite scifantasy stories. I love the good guys, the bad guys, the dance of intention/information, wow! Everytime a new book comes out, I reread several of the older ones. But darn it, the map doesn't rank anywhere near the story.
Okay, the map is really pretty, I like the shading, font & illustrations of Marat & Canem. It is very visually pleasing at first glance. I also really like having it, I had everything pictured backwards (the west is always the frontier to me, but jeez, that's because I grew up in the West!) But speaking as a geologist, it always surprises me how many authors/illustrators make dumb maps. Honestly, pick up a real map & then do some splicing or have the map checked by someone who thinks about stuff like gravity & glaciation & plate techtonics!
Most of the time they do bad things with water. That is this map's problem. Rivers start in topography, not in the flats. They can bisect topography (ie canyon) but that's hard to do realistically at this scale. Rivers that come from mountains have speed, they don't tend to build the Mississippi style delta that you see coming out of Kalare. Those tend to happen with lower relief, bigger drainage rivers like, well, the Mississippi (maybe the Gaul could have ended that way, or the Tiber). Lakes are also pretty rare in real geography--think about it, they are either in the mountains (glaciation) or they are reservoirs (man made). Okay, the Great Lakes of North America aren't in a very mountainous region, but they are glacier made. Unless a lake is important to the story, I'd say skip it, as they are really hard to get right.
The Calderon valley looks weird in the big map, although they put in a bunch of hill/mountain symbols in the blow up. That makes it better but it would have been even better to have the Redhill Heights range trend that way.
Sorry to be so picky, but when you soak in all the great attention to detail in the words & plot line, it wrenches to see lack of detail in the map.
ok lets be serious, are we really worried about, gravity & glaciation & plate techtonics.(click to show/hide)
ok lets be serious, are we really worried about, gravity & glaciation & plate techtonics.(click to show/hide)
ok lets be seriousWay to cut right to the heart of the matter. Nicely done, sir!, are we really worried about, gravity & glaciation & plate techtonics.(click to show/hide)
Interesting POV, I hadn't really thought about whether physics should be a rule. Furies are not in our physics, after all. But the Aleran sky is blue & grass is green and north is cold & south is hot, so I automatically assumed that water runs down hill and went right on from there. Funny how your worldview gets brought along for the ride...
If you want to look at a map that REALLY gets me twisted, go look at the one for Eragon (shudder).
I wonder if bits of Earth could be cobbled together to put the right scene elements in the right places AND still have the right physics. Google maps & Photoshop, what fun!
I should mention that a 13"x19" print of the Codex Alera map, signed by myself and Jim Butcher, is currently up for auction, with proceeds going to the Avon Walk for Breast Cancer. Check it out and see what other awesome books are up for auction at Books For Boobs (http://bit.ly/b4boobs).
Hells frickin Bells...
or as i should rather say:
Bloody Crows and Great Furies !!
It's by far the most expensive item among them... 465 bucks at the moment... leading by about 300... <<<<< That's because we'all did good work on this one :~) Mikey
That's what you get for one-of-a-kind items... and why i could never afford them... *g*
Hee, thanks for the signal boost!
Hard to get to?!?!
Yeah, but you're a leaf on the Wind. ;D
Unfortunately they have needles not leaves. And not the fun kind of needles like pine trees.
I just recently re-read the books. Looking at the map in FLF, makes me wonder a bit about the events of CuF. Did Jim just forget about Forcia? Tavi mentioned that the Canim sacked both Parcia and Rhodes, yet Forcia is closer to the Canim. Furthermore, two of Kalare's legions held the Blackhills to prevent a response from Parcia and the eastern legions. Forcia was in an ideal position behind all of Kalare's legions. They could of easily went on the offensive and taken the city in both CuF and CaF.First off, congrats on a major resurrection of a zombie thread (almost 2 years!).