The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.
Hmm once the Knight's have offered redemption and been accepted or turned down they don't have much say in what happens to them. Michael and Sanya didn't seem to mind Harry kneecapping Cassius, so I don't see how they'd have a problem with imprisonment.
The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.The bearer can't repent if they're dead either, but the Knights don't have a huge problem with using the Swords with lethal intent.
The bearer can't repent if they're dead either, but the Knights don't have a huge problem with using the Swords with lethal intent.
Exactly, they give the coin holder a goodly chance at surrendering, giving it up to be free to redeem themselves or not with the life remaining to them.. If not, no problem at all giving the chop or stab and retrieving the coin that way...
Also, the Knights can't just hunt down Denarians and demand that they repent or die--they have to wait until they run into them by "coincidence" or the Denarian(s) is/are doing something actively objectionable.Given what Forthill said about Michael needing a babysitter for his family, and (I think?) we saw Michael heading to the airport, plus Sanya and Shiro coming to Chicago, that "coincidence" can include things like "Got on a plane and tracked them down."
Given what Forthill said about Michael needing a babysitter for his family, and (I think?) we saw Michael heading to the airport, plus Sanya and Shiro coming to Chicago, that "coincidence" can include things like "Got on a plane and tracked them down."
...would the KotC try to break them out?One might think the prison guard would have a plan for a breakout, like the Banefire for example.
I believe you misremember Michael's objections in Small Favor.
Wait, why is the host a factor in this? By far the easiest way for Fallen to end up in Demonreach is for Harry to chuck the next few coins he retrieves off of dead Denarians into the back of one of the tunnels. A live host is going to be putting up one hell of a fight, but scooping pocket change off a corpse is comparatively easy.
Wrap them in whatever blessed container it takes to prevent other Denarians summoning their comrades' coins back, leave a sign "Future Wardens: Do Not Touch", and basically forget about them. Whether they're meant to be in circulation or not, that's a free-willed mortal's choice to put them well beyond reach of anyone else.
Wait, why is the host a factor in this? By far the easiest way for Fallen to end up in Demonreach is for Harry to chuck the next few coins he retrieves off of dead Denarians into the back of one of the tunnels. A live host is going to be putting up one hell of a fight, but scooping pocket change off a corpse is comparatively easy.
Wrap them in whatever blessed container it takes to prevent other Denarians summoning their comrades' coins back, leave a sign "Future Wardens: Do Not Touch", and basically forget about them. Whether they're meant to be in circulation or not, that's a free-willed mortal's choice to put them well beyond reach of anyone else.
Given what Forthill said about Michael needing a babysitter for his family, and (I think?) we saw Michael heading to the airport, plus Sanya and Shiro coming to Chicago, that "coincidence" can include things like "Got on a plane and tracked them down."
Also Knights just don't let coin holders go...
As for Michael thinking Harry had taken up the coin, he thought that Harry still had the Shadow, not that he'd gone full on Denarian.
Accepting someone's claim of repentance or giving someone the chance at repentance is significantly different than ensuring someone perpetual freedom so that they could exercise their will to repent.
I don't see the Knights thinking "The Fallen must be free in case they change their minds!"
Or is it the coinholders, technically... either way... the Knights would be working to free the Naagloshii and everything else already there... there's probably at least one denizen of Hell in there already. As to the coins finding a way out... I presume that's accomplished via a link and something "exercising" power to make it happen... which might draw Alfred's attention.
Conflict between Alfred and the powers below might put the prison at risk and that is the one reason I'd worry - but then again... there are already things in there that have friends who are probably just as big and bad and its stood the test so far.
Also, while we can always take what Nic says with a grain of salt, he still said that Murphy may have been able to actually get away with executing him had she not judged. He was, after all, in the middle of some evil deeds, coin holder or not.
That what their job is, they both explained, to give Cassius a chance
If they aren't doing anything then the Knight's can't, or are not required to, act. This is Michael's argument, more of less, in Small Favor.
But the better example is Cassius, Harry argued that he was playing Michael and Sanya, that he would never reform, that he should be snuffed... Both Michael and Sanya said it wasn't their place to judge him, he gave up the coin thus gave himself a chance at redemption... That what their job is, they both explained, to give Cassius a chance, what he does with it is up to him and none of their business.Yeah, but at that time, Cassius was defanged. He was no longer a threat, he was effectively harmless. Nic was in the middle of a little bit of attempted murder.
Yeah, but at that time, Cassius was defanged. He was no longer a threat, he was effectively harmless. Nic was in the middle of a little bit of attempted murder.
All of which is I think getting away from the original argument that the Knights just hang around and wait for a bit of Denarian evil to fall in their laps. They can be proactive.
"No, I'm not, Harry," Michael said. "The purpose of the Knights is not to destroy those who serve evil."
"No," Michael said. "But that doesn't change my purpose. He has surrendered his coin, and the influence of it. The rest is not for Sanya or me to decide. It is Cassius's choice."All the while Harry was arguing that they shouldn't let him go because his is a murderous bastard, and would do it again.. And Cassius was gleefully agreeing with him.. It is because of that as much as anything Harry took a baseball bat to his ankles.
In Small Favor Michael's objection is to attacking the Denarian's without warning. Which is what Michael and Harry quarrel about.
All of which is I think getting away from the original argument that the Knights just hang around and wait for a bit of Denarian evil to fall in their laps. They can be proactive.
That can't possibly be the issue. In the same book, Harry notes that Michael has no problem killing enemies from behind when needed.They travel around the world to do their job. They may not have a hit list they're working through, but it's not like it's a coincidence Shiro and Sanya show up to do Knightly things despite not living in Chicago. Or hell, Susan and Murphy went out explicitly to fight some bad guys in Mexico, and the Swords didn't sulk about it. The point is, they don't just have to wait for the Denarians to come to them.
I don't have my copy of the book right now, but I'll have access to it later tonight and will post a quote of the section under discussion (if someone wants to post it earlier, that would be awesome).
When do we ever see them be proactive?
They travel around the world to do their job. They may not have a hit list they're working through, but it's not like it's a coincidence Shiro and Sanya show up to do Knightly things despite not living in Chicago. Or hell, Susan and Murphy went out explicitly to fight some bad guys in Mexico, and the Swords didn't sulk about it. The point is, they don't just have to wait for the Denarians to come to them.
That can't possibly be the issue. In the same book, Harry notes that Michael has no problem killing enemies from behind when needed.This is Michael's objection to Harry's plan. In terms of how and when the Knight's act it is often communicated to them in some fashion. This is discussed over and over again in the books. Michael and the other Knight's are where they need to be when they are needed. They work for a god.
“This isn’t a democracy, Harry. We serve a King.”You need to make a distinction between killing by surprise in combat and killing without warning. In the initial introduction to Shiro, Michael attacks by surprise from a fire escape.
Sanya frowned for a moment, glancing at me. But then he settled back in his chair, a silent statement of support for Michael.
“You want to talk to them?” I asked Michael. “You’ve got to be kidding me.”
“I didn’t say that,” Michael replied. “But I will not set out to simply murder them and have done. It’s a solution, Harry. But it isn’t good enough.”
"So it ends, Knight," purred the smooth, demon-voice of Ursiel.
"Hai," the old man agreed quietly. He looked up above him, at a fire escape platform ten feet off the ground.
A shadowed figure dropped over the rail of the platform, steel rasping as it did. There was a low thrum of power, a flash of silver, and the hiss of a blade cutting the air. The shadowy figure landed in a crouch beside the creature.
The demon Ursiel jerked once, body stiffening. There was a thump.
Then its body toppled slowly over to one side, leaving its monstrous head lying on the alley floor. The light died from its four eyes.
The third Knight rose away from the demon's corpse. Tall and broad-shouldered, his close-cut hair dark and feathered with silver, Michael Carpenter snapped the blade of his broad sword, Amoracchius, to one side, clearing droplets of blood from it. He put it back into its sheath, staring down at the fallen demon, and shook his head.
This is Michael's objection to Harry's plan. In terms of how and when the Knight's act it is often communicated to them in some fashion. This is discussed over and over again in the books. Michael and the other Knight's are where they need to be when they are needed. They work for a god.
Another way to think about it is Alfred might have rules about who can be locked up on the island and who can't, and under what circumstances the island is allowed to lock up a supernatural entity. For a variety of reasons the Denarians, or just the Fallen trapped in the coin, might not apply. We know the island has a lot of dangerous supernatural prisoners, but we don't know how they earned their prison sentence.
Nobody realizes that the Archive was the target until after the Shedd was closed in the magic circle. And nobody knew there were at least thirteen Denarian's in town. With two notable exceptions. Mab and Uriel. And they weren't talking for whatever reasons. Can you see why Michael wasn't instructed by TWG to attack?
Nobody forgot Marcone. He was the key which started the game clock.
Without Harry's help the Knight's didn't have a chance in hell of doing anything, they aren't suicidal. See where there were 13 Denarian's in town.
Michael's suspicion of Harry was from Harry acting out of character in not using fire spells.
Marcone was bait
and a payoff to Titania.
The Archive was the target and as such Uriel was on the playing field in the Shedd.
The rules of the game kept Michael out of the Shedd, had he been there the Denarian's wouldn't have been.
Everything played out in the way you would expect. The Hobs were the first cutout, designed to kill Ivy, the second cutout was Uriel in the Shedd to help Harry if things went sideways. With all the pieces in place the assault happened in the safest place, on Demonreach Island where all the participants could go all out.
No. Not unless TWG wanted Ivy to be tortured, because if Michael had been proactive when Harry asked him to, then Ivy would never have even been in Chicago.Michael's first appearance in the book is after Titania's hitters attack Harry at Michael's house. The Denarian's don't show up until Harry finds Gard at the safe house. At that point no one knows were the Denarian's are. Contact is made through Ivy after the Accords protocol is invoked.
If nobody forgot him, then why was the fact that he was being tortured not brought up as an argument for why Michael and Sanya should hunt down the Denarians in town?At that point there is nobody to search for other than Marcone.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember it, between the time Mab took away Harry's blasting rod and the time Harry asked Michael to hat up and go Denarian hunting, there had been no reason for Harry to use fire magic around Michael because all Harry had done in Michael's presence was drive up to his house and talk to him in his kitchen.Michael's suspicions come into play after the events at the Shedd. Nic uses them to play on Harry's mind. And Harry did not use fire magic at the Train Station while with Michael.
What? Why does Titania care about Marcone?Read the book. Had you, you would know that she did.
“When one Court moves, the other perforce moves with it,” Mab said.The why is speculative. She hates Harry. The most obvious reason might be that she took revenge on Marcone for saving Harry behind Bock's Books. Gard warns Marcone then. As a bonus she knows Harry will be appointed Emissary for Mab, which gives her a reason to strike at Harry.
I croaked, “Titania wants Marcone dead?”
“Put simply,” she replied. “And her Emissary will continue to seek your death. Only by finding and saving the Baron’s life will you preserve your own.”
I'm not talking about the Shedd; I'm talking about before Harry even calls the White Council over the Accords breach.Again at no time is anyone aware of the location of the Denarian's until Ivy arrives.
But why couldn't everyone have tried to find the Denarians at Demonreach before Ivy was kidnapped?Demonreach is first introduced in Small Favor. Why would they look there?
Michael's first appearance in the book is after Titania's hitters attack Harry at Michael's house. The Denarian's don't show up until Harry finds Gard at the safe house. At that point no one knows were the Denarian's are. Contact is made through Ivy after the Accords protocol is invoked.
At that point there is nobody to search for other than Marcone.
Michael's suspicions come into play after the events at the Shedd. Nic uses them to play on Harry's mind. And Harry did not use fire magic at the Train Station while with Michael.
"So," I said, "I think we've got to move fast, and get Marcone away from them before he's forced to join up."
Michael frowned and folded his broad, work-scarred hands on the table before him. "What makes you think he's going to tell them no?"
"Marcone's scum," I said. "But he's his own scum. He doesn't work for anyone."
...
"Guys," I said, "I know that your first instincts tend to be to stand watch against the night, turning the other cheek, and so on. But he's here with maybe twice the demon-power he had on his last visit. If we wait for him to come to us, he'll tear us apart."
"Agreed," Sanya said firmly. "Take the initiative. Find him and hit the snake before he can coil to strike."
Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen."
...
Michael smiled, but it was brief and strained. "My point is that we can undertake such an aggressive move in only the direst of circumstances."
"Faerie stands poised on the brink of an internal war," I said. "Which would probably reignite the war between the Council and the Vampire Courts--and in the bad guys' favor, I might add. One of the most dangerous men I've ever known is about to have involuntary access to the knowledge and power of a Fallen angel, which would give the Denarians access to major influence within the United States. Not to mention the serious personal consequences for me if they succeed in making it happen." I looked back and forth between the two Knights, and held up one hand straight over my head. "I vote dire. All in favor?"
Michael caught Sanya's hand on the way up, and pushed it gently back down to the table. "This isn't a democracy, Harry. We serve a King."
"That's the real reason you didn't want to hat up and go gunning for the Denarians right at first, the way I wanted to. You were worried I was leading you into a trap."
"I didn't lie to you, Harry." Michael said. "But I'd be lying right now if I didn't admit that, yes, the thought had crossed my mind."
Read the book. Had you, you would know that she did.
The why is speculative. She hates Harry. The most obvious reason might be that she took revenge on Marcone for saving Harry behind Bock's Books. Gard warns Marcone then. As a bonus she knows Harry will be appointed Emissary for Mab, which gives her a reason to strike at Harry.
Again at no time is anyone aware of the location of the Denarian's until Ivy arrives.
Demonreach is first introduced in Small Favor. Why would they look there?
You don't seem to understand the timeline of events. For instance they hold a council of war after dropping Gard off and discuss how to find the Nickleheads. And are attacked on the way back to Michael's house by Torelli's people. At which point they go to the Train Station.
In so far as the text indicates no one has been put into stasis since Demonreach was built and originally inhabited.
There is no good reason to put a fallen inside the fence. Why would you take the chance?
And if you did, a Knight attempting a breakout would trigger the fail safe.
I gave you a direct quote from Mab about Titania. I really don't know how to make it clearer.
I didn't say that Titania knew of the events in the alley. I qualified the why as speculative. Since the why was speculative I didn't bother with the how. However possibly by the same mechanism that Mab employed on the attack on Marcone's panic room. Your guess is as good as mine.
I'll repeat, Harry said he couldn't track them.
Had TWG given Michael the heads up I fairly certain that Michael wouldn't have needed Harry or that Michael would have ignored the call, so I guess TWG was hanging back. Uriel was hanging at the Shedd giving out keys to soulfire. And we never see Toot after the first call. Who knows why?
One sign of trust is when you listen to your heart instead of the little seed of doubt, so I guess in my mind that it was the third act after the Shedd that the seedling burst from its husk.
Certainly Michael followed Harry's lead at the Shedd and raked in the coins. You are welcome to differ.
Are we sure about this? I mean, it's one thing if the Denarians are actively doing something horrible, but if the Knights ran into one of them on vacation or something, would they be permitted to try to kill the Denarian even if he/she refused to give up the Coin? I mean, Michael spent 3-ish years thinking that Harry had taken up Lasciel's coin, but didn't do anything about it until Harry actively approached him.IMO that falls under the prime directive (IF possible, save coin holders), where Michael was undoubtedly subtly trying to influence Harry into taking the right path. While Harry wasn't doing any bad things, Harry was out of the crosshairs for a fight. But for those coin holders who have clearly gone off the reservation, I think the Knights could confront them even in their off hours - they would still not open with a random stab to the heart, but they could go 'Hey Nic, fancy meeting you here. Please give up your coin!' and things would devolve from there.
But for those coin holders who have clearly gone off the reservation, I think the Knights could confront them even in their off hours - they would still not open with a random stab to the heart, but they could go 'Hey Nic, fancy meeting you here. Please give up your coin!' and things would devolve from there.
Though (and again, this is taking Nic at his word) they get MOST of their coins back via corruption in the Church, but not all. We don't know how the other ones get out, it's possible that, like their ability to roll a bit on their own, to encourage people to pick a coin up, they might be able to somehow move themselves. Otherwise dropping it in a box, covering the box with concrete and anti-summoning magic, and then tossing it in the ocean would be enough.
It also occurs to me that DemonReach is not a perfect prison. Energy can leak out, the prisoners are at least somewhat aware and somewhat able to reach out of their cells, since they can communicate. A coin in DR plus a prisoner of DR could lead to some very bad things. Like taking advantage of the security of a max security prison by also using it to store nuclear weapons.
I'd like to know why. That's one of the things about this that makes me so uncomfortable--why would TWG help arrange for Ivy to get tortured? (Obviously, free will was involved in a lot of this, but Harry also made the free willed decision to ask the Knights for help tracking down the Denarians without involving others--he only chose to make it an Accords issue when the Knights refused.)The obvious answer is that it serves the narrative. However I assume you want it from inside the story. TWG didn't arrange to torture Ivy. Nicodemus and his cohorts did. The Knight's themselves can't quit being Knights because it is painful and inconvenient. And at the point of the conversation Ivy was not yet at hazard and no one was aware she was the target. You know the outcome but in the book they don't. Michael chose not to confront the Denarian's without the ability to give them a choice. Harry gave that to him and allowed Michael to hold his moral ground.
The obvious answer is that it serves the narrative. However I assume you want it from inside the story.
TWG didn't arrange to torture Ivy. Nicodemus and his cohorts did.
The Knight's themselves can't quit being Knights because it is painful and inconvenient.
And at the point of the conversation Ivy was not yet at hazard and no one was aware she was the target. You know the outcome but in the book they don't.
Michael chose not to confront the Denarian's without the ability to give them a choice.
Harry gave that to him and allowed Michael to hold his moral ground.
The timeline makes you keep track of not only what happened when, but when the protagonists knew what they could know.
So it is only after the Shedd that everyone is aware of Ivy and her hazard.
Yeah, but he didn't arrange anything to stop her being tortured either, and you would think that it would be part of the Knights' job to interfere with stuff like that.This is pointless. We've covered this ground multiple times. I'm done.
This is pointless. We've covered this ground multiple times. I'm done.
I assume I am missing something here, because this seems inexplicable to me. I had hoped that discussion would allow me to realize what I was missing, but I'm apparently also missing something in your posts...I have no idea. I just know that I don't have the answers you're seeking.
I am under the impression that the Knights' job is to "rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen" in Michael's words. I also believe that their secondary purpose is to protect the innocent as directed to by TWG, as evidenced by the many times we see them do that.
No, it is not, they do protect the innocent when they can and when it coincides with what their mission. That is why they walked away after Cassius gave up his coin even though Harry argued he was still a murderous bastard with Cassius gleefully agreeing that he was until Harry took a baseball bat to him.. That is why Murphy told Harry she could never be a Knight save for the one Knight she was one... Using her own judgement she couldn't let the Denarians just walk away after they had given up a coin and surrendered... She judged, not the Almighty, that is why she broke the Sword when she tried to kill Nic with is after he gave up his goodies.
Did you notice the word "secondary"? I'm not saying that they will do so at the expense of their primary mission, which is saving Denarians. I'm saying that they do protect the innocent in situations unrelated to Denarians, and attempt to protect the innocent from Denarians. This is why Michael helps SI kill a demon and arrest a sorcerer, why Michael works with Harry to stop harmful ghosts, why all three Knights work to stop Nicodemus from unleashing the plague curse, why Shiro rescues Harry from Nicodemus, why all three Knights help to rescue Maggie from the Red Court...I'm sure you get the idea.
So what? That doesn't mean they lock up coin holding Denarians on Demonreach.. That seems to be the point of the thread.. The answer is they don't.... Do they help sometimes in going after other "enemies" of the Almighty? Yes, but that still doesn't prove that they lock up Denarians on Demonreach... Or deposit the coins there, if that were true, they would have handed over the lot the collected when they helped Harry rescue Ivy to Alfred, who failed to come forward... More to the point the Denarians wouldn't have been allowed on Demonreach in the first place after they kidnapped Ivy... Or even more to the point if they knew there were fellow coin holders in lock up, don't you think they would have freed them?
Sorry. I thought you were responding to my post saying one of their jobs was to protect the innocent.So I looked up the relevant passage, and I think Michael is a bit more nuanced than we are discussing, his only SPECIFIC explanation is (SF chapter 15):
That said, I think you somewhat misunderstood the topic of this thread. It is not claiming that the Knights lock Denarians up in Demonreach currently; it is proposing a hypothetical where the Warden might lock up Denarians in Demonreach in the future, and wondering if that would be a problem for the Knights. It also contains a detour dealing with why the Knights weren't willing to hat up and rescue Marcone at the beginning of Small Favor, given that it appears to be within their job parameters and it would have saved a lot of trouble.
So I looked up the relevant passage, and I think Michael is a bit more nuanced than we are discussing, his only SPECIFIC explanation is (SF chapter 15):
"You want to talk to them?" I asked Michael. "You've got to be kidding me."
"I didn't say that," Michael replied. "But I will not set out to simply murder them and have done. It's a solution, Harry. But it isn't good enough."
Seems to me he doesn't reject hunting them so much as the apparent subtext of setting out to kill them.
Seems to me he doesn't reject hunting them so much as the apparent subtext of setting out to kill them.
“They’ve already blown up a building, tried to murder me, and set off a situation that nearly got your own children burned down in the cross fire. In what way has it not come to that?”
Instead of answering, Michael shook his head, took up Amoracchius, and walked further into the house.
I scowled after him for a minute and muttered darkly under my breath.
“You confused him,” Sanya rumbled.
I glanced at the dark-skinned Knight. “What?”
“You confused him,” Sanya repeated. “Because of what you did.”
“What? Lying to the Council? I don’t see that I had much choice.”
“But you did,” Sanya said placidly. He reached into the gym bag on the floor next to him and drew out a long saber, an old cavalry weapon—Esperacchius. A nail worked into the hilt declared it a brother of Michael’s sword. He started inspecting the blade. “You could have simply moved to attack them.”
“By myself? I’m bad, but I’m not that bad.”
“He’s your friend. He would have come with you. You know that.”
I shook my head. “He’s my friend. Period. You don’t do that to your friends.”
“Precisely,” Sanya said. “So instead you have placed your own life in jeopardy in order to protect his beliefs. You risk your body to preserve his heart.” He brought out a smooth sharpening stone and began stropping the saber’s blade. “I suppose he considers it a particularly messianic act.”
“That’s not why I did it,” I said.
“Of course it isn’t. He knows that. It isn’t easy for him. Usually he’s the one protecting another, willing to pay the price if he must.”
I exhaled and glanced after Michael. “I don’t know what else I could have done.”
“Da,” Sanya agreed. “But he is still afraid for you.” He fell quiet for a moment, while his stone slid along the sword’s blade.
“It’s okay to be mad at God about it, son. It ain’t His fault, what happened, but He understands.”
“You gotta think that maybe there’s a matter of balance, here,” he said. “Maybe one archangel invested his strength in this situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand.”
My right hand erupted into pins and needles again.
I sucked in a swift breath and rose, spinning around.
“Why?” I demanded. “Why did you want the Denarians stopped? Why send the hobs to kill the Archive? Why recruit me to save the Archive and Marcone in the event that the hobs failed?”
Mab paused, turned, casually showing off the gorgeous curves of her calves, and tilted her head at me. “Nicodemus and his ilk were clearly in violation of my Accords, and obviously planning to abuse them to further his ambition. That was reason enough to see his designs disrupted. And among the Fallen was one with much to answer for to me, personally, for its attack upon my home.”
“The Black Council attack on Arctis Tor,” I said. “One of them used Hellfire.”
Mab showed me her snow-white teeth. “The Watchman and I,” Grimalkin mewled for her, “had a common enemy this day. The enemy could not be allowed to gain the power represented by the child Archive.”
I frowned and thought of the silver hand that had batted the fallen angel and his master sorcerer around as if he’d been a stuffed practice dummy. “Thorned Namshiel.”
One additional thing to keep in mind it is always possible TWG allowed this to happen even if normally TWG would have had the Knights prevent it. The archive has always been neutral. Ivy now most likely hates the Denarians and likes Harry even more. She might now be more likely to do something to oppose the Denarians in the future that would push the boundaries of being neutral. Allowing her to be taken but making sure she was rescued before taking a coin could have just been using the Denarians plan against them. The Knights themselves would never do that because they do not know the future but a being who does might see that letting her be taking was the better long term plan.
Yeah, but he didn't arrange anything to stop her being tortured either, and you would think that it would be part of the Knights' job to interfere with stuff like that.
...would the KotC try to break them out? I've heard a theory that the way to trap the Coins in Demonreach is to trap their bearers with them, thus subverting the "meant to be in circulation" issue--they are in circulation, it's just that their hosts can't do anything. The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.
No, for a couple reasons:
1. The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.
2. The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them. They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them. If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices.
The Coin wouldn't be locked up there anyways. The power of a Fallen Archangel would guarantee that didn't happen.
The difference for Marcone and Ivy is that they chose to act with their free will. And as such they are victims to their choices. TWG can't interfere.
No, for a couple reasons:
1. The Knight's themselves have attempted to lock the Coin's away from people.
2. The Knights don't seek out Coin holders to save them. They show up to stop them, and then attempt to get them to repent before fighting them. If one of them got locked up on Demonreach they got there by their own Choices.
No, the job of the Knights is explicitly to save the Denarians--stopping them from hurting people is what they do when they fail to save them.No..... If this were the case killing them would not be an option, and it is. Michael wasn't out there searching for Denarian's to save. He went out there by TWG's directive and fought baddies of all kinds. When he faced Denarian's he gave them the option to repent.
Also, they picked up the coin by their own choices, so we know that "they made a choice" is not necessarily going to release the Knights from their responsibility to help them.
I agree more or less with your points except the last one, because it is hinted at that there are beings and or monsters just as powerful locked away on Demonreach.. Harry may be mistaken
but he seems to feel that the artifacts are safe locked away on Demonreach.. He wouldn'd do that if he thought a Fallen Archangel could get to them.. Then again the artifacts though powerful are not possessed by a fallen angel, that might make a difference, or not depending on where the coins were deposited.
I don't believe there is anything locked up even remotely as powerful as an Archangel. A dark god for example is what Cowl would have become from a Darkhollow. That's nothing compared to an Archangel.
No..... If this were the case killing them would not be an option, and it is. Michael wasn't out there searching for Denarian's to save. He went out there by TWG's directive and fought baddies of all kinds. When he faced Denarian's he gave them the option to repent.
If the job of the Knight was to save the Denarian's he would have been out a lot more trying to save them when in fact the majority of the time he wasn't even fighting them but other things. Outsiders, vampires, demon's, ghosts, and a Dragon are just some examples of his missions.
Again, they don't seek them out to help them. I don't recall a single time that a Knight's only objective was to locate a Denarian for the sole purpose of saving them. In every case I can remember it was because the Denarian was doing something bad, and the Knight showed up to #1 stop them from doing it, #2 save the person if possible. The first objective has always been to stop the Denarian.
Michael shook his head. "Brother, you forget our purpose. We are not given our power so that we can strike down our enemies, no matter how much they might deserve it. Our purpose is to rescue the poor souls trapped by the Fallen."
Um...no, actually, you're wrong. Michael says so.Michael says so, Sanya doesn't seem to be entirely in agreement. Who do we trust?
Small Favor:
Michael says so, Sanya doesn't seem to be entirely in agreement. Who do we trust?
The Knight's job is to balance the coins and their holders. If the Denarians act then so must the Knight's. The Rescue Rangers get a ding a ling and there they go. :) They can use the Swords to battle any number of other evils as long as that purpose isn't selfish. So the Swords can go to Chichen Itza, but the Swords don't exist to pull Harry's chestnuts from the fire. It appears to be sufficient to say that if the Denarian's kill thousands then the Swords can save other thousands to balance the scales. If you happen to take a head or three, well good.
However they won't parachute in half a world away to stop a massacre if Denarians aren't involved.Yes.
It is all about balance, bad stuff happens, the Knights are not here to stop all of it.. The thing with the Denarians is they often put their thumb on the scale and upset the balance..
I'm not saying that a Denarian could escape Demonreach. I'm saying that Lucifer would keep them out, or get them out (the Coin, not the person holding it).
Or the coin would just abandon it's holder and escape before the holder was imprisoned.
Can they do that? Given the importance of free will, I would think that the holder would have to choose to release the coin for that to happen.
The importance of free will is the moral choice. A coin holder has to abandon the coin as a condition of repenting. That doesn't mean failing to repent is a guarantee you get to keep the coin.
I'm not sure about that. I'm pretty sure that free will is about more than just moral choices--in the books it's stated to be a separate thing that only mortals have. Also, given that we've never seen anyone lose a coin who didn't either choose to give it up or die first, I don't think we can just assume that the coins have One Ring-like powers of escaping their hosts whenever it's convenient. Otherwise, they'd be forever falling out of people's pockets when people tried to contain them, and we've seen that they don't do that.Crassus lost his coin, granted he lost it due to free-willed mortals so you could dodge into that corner, but he absolutely lost it without dying.
Crassus didn't lose the coin, he gave it up, like the post says.
If you are going to use the One Ring analogy understand what the One ring was trying to do. Bilbo's ring was trying to return to Sauron, its master. It was dropped when Sauron was killed.
The analogy isn't perfect but it is what it is. The Denarians are Sauron. The Church is Gollum. So it isn't a case of the coin abandoning its holder, the case is the church not being able to hold on to the coins.
Um...no, actually, you're wrong. Michael says so.
Michael was saying that in the context of Sonja wanting to use the power of the Swords to punish the Fallen. If the main purpose of the Swords was to save those possessed by the Fallen, it wouldn't be a weapon that's only function is to destroy. Unless anyone can point to an example of one of the Swords doing anything other than destroy whatever enemy that's in the way? This goes to my previous comment which the Swords primary role is to smite those who wish to do evil.
Michael was saying that in the context of Sonja wanting to use the power of the Swords to punish the Fallen. If the main purpose of the Swords was to save those possessed by the Fallen, it wouldn't be a weapon that's only function is to destroy.
Unless anyone can point to an example of one of the Swords doing anything other than destroy whatever enemy that's in the way?
...would the KotC try to break them out? I've heard a theory that the way to trap the Coins in Demonreach is to trap their bearers with them, thus subverting the "meant to be in circulation" issue--they are in circulation, it's just that their hosts can't do anything. The problem with this is that a coinbearer trapped in stasis on Demonreach couldn't repent (I don't think), so it seems like something the Knights would have a problem with.
I think the idea that Demonreach can't simply lock up the coins without a bearer is laughable. The church can't hold the coins because it puts the coins in the hands of free-willed humans. It's like hiding a steak in a dog kennel. Demonreach is not a free-willed mortal. He imprisons things that are WAY more powerful than some pathetic ex-angels, and can't be influenced by puny nickleheads that can't even manifest outside their coins.
I think the idea that Demonreach can't simply lock up the coins without a bearer is laughable. The church can't hold the coins because it puts the coins in the hands of free-willed humans. It's like hiding a steak in a dog kennel. Demonreach is not a free-willed mortal. He imprisons things that are WAY more powerful than some pathetic ex-angels, and can't be influenced by puny nickleheads that can't even manifest outside their coins.