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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on February 25, 2019, 07:44:29 AM
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In "Changes," Harry tells Mab he will become the Winter Knight if she heals him so he can rescue his daughter and "give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love." So I'm not talking about that caveat in their agreement.
I want to know if anyone on the forum who has read about the mythology of the fae knows of something, anything the fae aren't allowed to do to, or ask of mortals, even if it isn't specifically about Mab or any of the fae with names that might signify Mab. I have this odd idea how Harry might get out of the Winter Knight gig.
When Harry agrees to be the Winter Knight Mab says to him, "Once you are my Knight, once this last quest of yours is complete, you are mine. You will destroy what I wish you to destroy. Kill whatsoever I wish you to kill. You will be mine, blood, bone, and breath. Do you understand this?" That sounds awfully complete, but the term "blood, bone, and breath" sounds more like a term of art; Mab bragging about being Harry's new boss, rather than an actual terms that he must fulfill. It seems to me the destroying and killing part are the crucial orders Harry has to carry out. Plus, I find it more than just odd that Harry doesn't automatically get to learn Winter Law or have an easily obtainable source; like a book or tutor, to learn it from. It's almost like Mab doesn't want Harry to know anymore about Winter Law than she needs him to know.
So I'm thinking, what if Mab really wants Harry to do something, but it's not something he's obligated to do as the Winter Knight. If Harry thinks he has to do Mab's bidding, it doesn't matter, he does the job, Mab is happy and (if he survives) Harry remains the Winter Knight. However, if Harry learns that Winter Law doesn't apply to this particular job, he could say, "I will do it as a favor Mab, if you ask me." Then; if Mab is forced to ask Harry to do this task as a favor, I think Harry's old deal with Mab supersedes the current one. As a reminder that deal goes like this; "From time to time, I will make a request of you. When you have fulfilled three requests, your obligation to me ceases." I don't think there was anything said when Harry became the Winter Knight that nullifies that.
I think many of us have had the thought that if Harry finds a way out of the Winter Knight job, Mab can still ask one more favor of him. That not only seems logical, it's something we can all predict will happen. If I'm right about why Harry doesn't have an easy way to learn Winter Law, then not only is the idea that Harry might be able to turn the tables on Mab a viable one, it's something Jim might want to do in order to subvert our expectations, but do so in a good way. (Not like we have seen in a once uber popular, now crippled, maybe dying movie franchise that I will not name.)
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I think there is a loop hole and while she can command him to do anything she cannot force him to do
everything she commands. I believe both Eb at the end of Changes and Uriel at the end of Ghost Story told him that but I need to go back and read the exact quotes.
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In Summer Knight Mab makes Harry stab himself in the hand to make a point. Should she choose to do so she can run him like a meat puppet.
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In Summer Knight Mab makes Harry stab himself in the hand to make a point. Should she choose to do so she can run him like a meat puppet.
However at that point Harry didn't have full understanding he believes that she can make him do anything. That is why he suicided in the first place with a little nudging from Lasciel..
But here is what Eb told him in Changes page426 hardback
"She might lean on you pretty hard. Try to put you in a box you don't want to be in. But don't let her. She cannot take away your will. Even if she can make it seem that way. He sighed again, but that's the one thing the dark beings and powers can't do. Take away your ability to choose. They can kill you. They can make you do things---but they can't make you chooseto do'em. They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
Here is what Uriel said in Ghost Story page 475 The famous seven words..
A voice---a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, "Lies, Mab cannot change who you are."
Further down on the same page Harry says to Mab;
"No," I said then, weakly. "No. Maybe I'm your knight. But I'm not yours."
So yeah, perhaps Mab can command Harry to do anything she wants, however she cannot force him to do any of it, it is still his choice. It seems to be a matter of will, and as we know Harry has few equals or superiors when it comes to that.. He defeated the shadow of one Fallen that way, is Mab stronger than a fallen angel?
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So yeah, perhaps Mab can command Harry to do anything she wants, however she cannot force him to do any of it, it is still his choice.
I think the issue is that Mab can force him to do things, but she can't force him to choose to do them, and it's the choice that is important. At least, that was what I understood from the end of Ghost Story.
Given Mab's limitations and the reason why the faerie Knights exist, however, I doubt that Mab could force Harry to kill a mortal unassociated with the Courts or outright lie. That might be a way for Harry to fulfill his third favor to Mab, but on the other hand I have a hard time thinking of a situation where Mab would need to force Harry to lie outright or where Harry would refuse to kill someone as Mab's Knight but would do so to fulfill a favor.
The answer may end up lying in Mab's promise not to order him to harm anyone he loves after all--if Elaine is infected with Nemesis, for instance, Mab would want her dead but could not command Harry to kill her.
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The answer may end up lying in Mab's promise not to order him to harm anyone he loves after all--if Elaine is infected with Nemesis, for instance, Mab would want her dead but could not command Harry to kill her.
However knowing the Enemy, Harry may choose to kill her if he cannot cure her.
Given Mab's limitations and the reason why the faerie Knights exist, however, I doubt that Mab could force Harry to kill a mortal unassociated with the Courts or outright lie.
Yes, she can. As Eb said
They can make you do things---but they can't make you choose to do'em. They almost always try to lie to you about that. Don't fall for it."
So yes, like she forced him to pierce his hand on the mail spike, she can force him to do anything.. However it is still Harry's choice whether or not to follow her orders, but there are consequences if he refuses... Mab actually respects that, it is a quality she hasn't had in her knight in a very very long time.. Not saying it makes her happy, or that she won't kill Harry for refusing or more likely make him wish he were dead for choosing not to follow her command, but she respects him for it.
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However knowing the Enemy, Harry may choose to kill her if he cannot cure her.
Exactly. It is something Harry would agree to if Mab made it her third favor, but not something she could order Harry to do as her knight.
Yes, she can.
I'm not convinced of that. While I agree that she can force him to do most things, I think forcing him to try and kill a mortal unaffiliated with the Courts might be like when Aurora's plant construct tried to attack Murphy--because Murphy was someone Aurora couldn't kill, her construct couldn't either. I'm reasonably convinced that Mab taking control of Harry's body like she did with the letter opener would be the same thing.
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The "blood, bone, and breath" statement, I think, is supposed to parallel, "mind, body, and soul," except it actually just means, "body, body, body." Harry's mind and soul are still his own, as shown in Ghost Story by a certain archangel (and, you know, Harry doing his thing on his own during his soul walkabout).
The lesson from Uriel, which Harry immediately chucks back into Mab's face, is that Mab would have to control his body physically if she wanted to control his every movement, which would obviate his will. That brings me to Cold Days, during which Harry begins to use raw willpower more directly than ever. For example, he broke Mother Winter's "shackles," which were wrought with her own will. I think, at the level Harry is playing now, Mab wouldn't be able to directly puppet Harry anymore, or at least not for long. I think it's one reason Mab went out of her way to manipulate Harry into cooperating with Nicodemus in Skin Game (isolating him, waiting until the last possible moment to tell him about the parasite, etc.) Essentially, Mab makes another deal with Harry to get him to do it (though it probably isn't a Deal in strict Fae terms).
Anyway, I'm not sure about the details of Winter Law and whether or not Harry could find a loophole in the agreement to fulfill the Third Service and weasel out of being the Winter Knight. The only stipulations Harry makes are that his body is restored to health, he's given enough time and power to rescue his daughter and get her to safety, and Mab never commands him to "lift [a] hand against those [he] loves." The exact word "command" might be tricky enough alone to weasel out of the deal. For example, if Mab commands Harry to kill Murphy in vengeance for her part in killing Maeve, Harry might be able to use that as a way out of the deal, even if he doesn't actually kill her.
Mab also might've dealt in bad faith from the start, depending upon the mechanism she used to heal Harry's back. Welching on Winter Law, for some reason, temporarily paralyzed him again; Harry's exact words were "before my service begins," which may mean before he accepts the Winter Knight's Mantle. So he should not need the Mantle to still use his legs. On the other hand, if Mab interpreted it as "before I give you your first command," or something, then it's still technically accurate enough for Fae purposes.
I'm not sure about what else Mab might order Harry to do. Traditionally, in Deal with the Devil tropes, someone will make a bargain in exchange for completing a task that's impossible, and use some alternate win condition to accomplish it.
Personally, I think Harry is just going to get strong enough to change "masks," as VaderrIngle puts it. Harry won't stop being the Winter Knight; he'll simply become something else. Lord of the Little Folk or something, maybe.
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Jim has explicitly said that the deal to become the Winter Knight supersedes the three favor deal. He said that same deal initially offered to Harry to become Winter Knight was the deal made in Changes.
However, the books do not say this. The deal Harry made in Changes has completely different consideration than the first Winter Knight deal. Mab never mentions the earlier deal. There is no "I'll throw in saving your daughter as a kicker." Harry says I'll be your Knight if you give me the power and knowledge to save my daughter, and I get to be me at least until it's done, and Mab will never order him to raise a hand against, or whatever the phrasing was, his loved ones. (Note it doesn't say anything about the Lady or Mother or even a different Queen).
If we were to apply the English common law or most modern contract law based on it, both the three favor and Changes Winter Knight deal would be in place.
Now, Mab would be smart to keep both deals in place. If Harry somehow gets out of being the Winter Knight, she still has a favor left. If she needs Harry to kill a loved one, as mentioned earlier, she has leverage. Remember, Harry has killed a loved one at least once, maybe twice. It's hard to say whether he still loved Justin.
Personally, I think Harry is just going to get strong enough to change "masks," as VaderrIngle puts it. Harry won't stop being the Winter Knight; he'll simply become something else. Lord of the Little Folk or something, maybe.
I think something like this is more likely than Harry somehow getting clear of being Winter Knight. Perhaps he picks up another mantle, so he can step out of one into the other, or he simply learns how to put the Winter Knight mantle on a shelf until needed.
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Jim has explicitly said that the deal to become the Winter Knight supersedes the three favor deal. He said that same deal initially offered to Harry to become Winter Knight was the deal made in Changes.
However, the books do not say this. The deal Harry made in Changes has completely different consideration than the first Winter Knight deal. Mab never mentions the earlier deal. There is no "I'll throw in saving your daughter as a kicker." Harry says I'll be your Knight if you give me the power and knowledge to save my daughter, and I get to be me at least until it's done, and Mab will never order him to raise a hand against, or whatever the phrasing was, his loved ones. (Note it doesn't say anything about the Lady or Mother or even a different Queen).
If we were to apply the English common law or most modern contract law based on it, both the three favor and Changes Winter Knight deal would be in place.
Here's the WoJ:
Now, prior to Cold Days Dresden still owes Mab one favour, does he still owe her that favour or did the events of Cold Days make up for his obligation?
Technically yeah, he still kind of owes her that one favour, but on the other hand, he also sort of owes her his complete loyalty, devotion and obedience so the extra favour is, you know, it’s like “yeah okay, he also does have a hand grenade in his hand while he’s sitting on top of a nuke that’s about to go off”, so you know, technically she could probably mess with that if he somehow got out of being the knight, But uh, generally speaking that didn’t just get wiped away, Mab keeps very good books and that’s not something that’s going to be, she does not let things slide, it does not happen.
So it sounds like both deals are still in effect, it's just that the Winter Knight deal is so much bigger that the three favors deal is mostly irrelevant (outside specific circumstances that we're discussing).
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Harry put Mab in her place in Cold Days by telling her that if she forced him, he would obey her. He stated that he would do exactly what she ordered and not one iota more. It turns out she didn't like this idea. Mab would be costing herself and ally in favor of just another servant.
She could make him do anything, physically. The question is whether she is willing to accept the consequences of doing so.
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Yeah, Mab has that last deal going on where if she requests something of him and he does it, that's it.
Of course, now that he's Winter Knight, she doesn't have to request anything of him, she can just outright command it.
Of course, once he inevitably gets out of Winter Knighthood, there's that third favor he still owes her.
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Of course, now that he's Winter Knight, she doesn't have to request anything of him, she can just outright command it.
Well, she can't command anything. We know she can't command him to harm those he loves, and I've theorized that there are commands that he can refuse without Mab even having the option to force him to obey (namely, killing people unaffiliated with the Courts and outright lying).
Does anyone else have ideas for things Mab can't command him to do, or things she can't try to force him to do if he refuses her command?
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I don't think she can command Harry to use wizard magic. I believe she can control his physical body, and use of Winter ice magic. Wizard magic requires real belief to do. So Harry would become no different than any other Winter Knight, losing his value to Mab.
There could be one thing that gives Harry more free will. The Fallen's words that lead to Harry becoming the Winter Knight, and having Kincaid shoot him, caused his lack of free will. To balance the scales, Uriel gave his free will back. Harry, unlike other Winter Knights may have a form of angelic protection from Mab's total control over him. But I'm not sure. Even Harry admitted that Mab could make him a meat puppet but it would make him virtually useless to her.
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Here's the WoJ:
So it sounds like both deals are still in effect, it's just that the Winter Knight deal is so much bigger that the three favors deal is mostly irrelevant (outside specific circumstances that we're discussing).
I was talking about a quote where Jim was talking about the third favor ending his obligation to Mab. I might be wrong, and that never happened, but Jim does contradict himself. For example, he said that Harry could perform the Darkhallow because he looked at Kemmler's book with his Sight. That's not what happened. Also, Jim has said he has lied. If he plans of Harry getting out of his deal by Mab asking a favor, someone asks him about it, then he might throw out some disinformation.
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Harry put Mab in her place in Cold Days by telling her that if she forced him, he would obey her. He stated that he would do exactly what she ordered and not one iota more. It turns out she didn't like this idea. Mab would be costing herself and ally in favor of just another servant.
She could make him do anything, physically. The question is whether she is willing to accept the consequences of doing so.
Yes, because she can force him to do as she orders him to do.. However that would get her the same kind of crappy knight she's had for the last thousand years or so... That isn't what she wants.
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I don't think she can command Harry to use wizard magic. I believe she can control his physical body, and use of Winter ice magic. Wizard magic requires real belief to do. So Harry would become no different than any other Winter Knight, losing his value to Mab.
This makes a lot of sense.
There could be one thing that gives Harry more free will. The Fallen's words that lead to Harry becoming the Winter Knight, and having Kincaid shoot him, caused his lack of free will. To balance the scales, Uriel gave his free will back. Harry, unlike other Winter Knights may have a form of angelic protection from Mab's total control over him. But I'm not sure. Even Harry admitted that Mab could make him a meat puppet but it would make him virtually useless to her.
I'm not sure...I think what Uriel did was tell Harry a bit of "cosmic" level truth, rather than giving him any particular power. Knowing he has free will will certainly help him keep it, but I think it's sort of like Lea's magic feather trick.
I was talking about a quote where Jim was talking about the third favor ending his obligation to Mab.
Do you think you could dig up the quote/source? I've never seen this one.
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Do you think you could dig up the quote/source? I've never seen this one.
No. I'm not very good at finding WoJ. Also, I might be remembering something that didn't happen. If you want a quote from a book, I'm usually pretty good at finding that.
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I'm not actually sure Mab agreed to the condition not to order him to kill any loved ones. She said the Knight's job is to kill who he's told to kill, and then they moved on to discussing other clauses without actually resolving that disagreement. I figure she just knows giving that order would be an immediate path into him turning into a deliberately useless mediocre knight, so she wouldn't go there unless she absolutely had to (e.g. if someone Harry cared about was Nemfected).
As for his paralysis returning when he disregarded winter law, that doesn't necessarily mean she welched on the promise to outright fix him. Even if she did grant him a 100% good-as-new, lasting fix, she also didn't promise not to paralyze him again later as a means of discipline.
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As for his paralysis returning when he disregarded winter law, that doesn't necessarily mean she welched on the promise to outright fix him. Even if she did grant him a 100% good-as-new, lasting fix, she also didn't promise not to paralyze him again later as a means of discipline.
Or make him think that he was paralyzed when he wasn't.
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You may want to think of the mantle as a supernatural exoskeleton. She didn't fix his back. Given sufficient time his back will heal itself. All the better to keep Harry in line.
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Maybe. But then, a crutch was not what was agreed upon. A fix was what was agreed upon.
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“That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”
She did precisely what she promised. The mantle to all intents and purposes made him healthy. It just didn't heal his back. Typical Mab. :)
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She did precisely what she promised. The mantle to all intents and purposes made him healthy. It just didn't heal his back. Typical Mab. :)
I don't think that is so clear.. Remember what Eb told Harry in Changes, it could well be that Mab did heal Harry's back, that was the bargain... However that doesn't exclude her from breaking it again when she wishes or making Harry believe that she did, she never promised that she wouldn't... In every Fae bargain there are loop holes.
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Someone asked Jim about how the mantle goes away when he has iron in him and about that scene where he breaks Winter Law. The question was something like, isn't that a contradiction. Jim replied with something like, it seems that way; doesn't it. I took it to mean that it was meant to look that way but wasn't. Intentionally ambiguous. I don't think that answers the question, but I think we should keep it in mind during the "is his back broken" debate.
I personally am on the "not broken" side.
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Someone asked Jim about how the mantle goes away when he has iron in him and about that scene where he breaks Winter Law. The question was something like, isn't that a contradiction. Jim replied with something like, it seems that way; doesn't it. I took it to mean that it was meant to look that way but wasn't. Intentionally ambiguous. I don't think that answers the question, but I think we should keep it in mind during the "is his back broken" debate.
I personally am on the "not broken" side.
I agree there; apart from Mab not welching on a specific agreement to heal Harry, the iron argument is even stronger to me - there can't be an ongoing crutch applied because iron would destroy any Mab-made crutch (even if temporarily), and it doesn't show.
And if Harry goes against Winter Law without getting out of the Knight business, Mab can and will punish him for it.
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And if Harry goes against Winter Law without getting out of the Knight business, Mab can and will punish him for it.
Very true. On a related note, does anyone have any theories for why Mab hasn't given Harry a way to know what Winter Law is before he breaks it?
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I agree there; apart from Mab not welching on a specific agreement to heal Harry, the iron argument is even stronger to me - there can't be an ongoing crutch applied because iron would destroy any Mab-made crutch (even if temporarily), and it doesn't show.
And if Harry goes against Winter Law without getting out of the Knight business, Mab can and will punish him for it.
No, she isn't welching, she agreed to heal him, and she did... However she didnt't agree to not break it again if she is displeased with him.... Nor did she agree to not make him think she broke it again... That's why one shouldn't bargain with the Fae..
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Very true. On a related note, does anyone have any theories for why Mab hasn't given Harry a way to know what Winter Law is before he breaks it?
Someone mentioned that Winter Law may have a way for Harry to get out of the mantel. He didn't agree to a term of service, so, in theory, the two or three years he's been the Winter Knight may have completely satisfied his end of the deal. Also, knowing all the rules could make it a lot easier for Harry to not do what Mab wants Harry to do.
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The effects of iron on the Mantle and the effects of breaking Winter Law are distinct and different. And Harry isn't surprised in Cold Days that his legs cease to work when he attempts to break Winter Law.. Remember that the only weasel in the room is Harry. Mab has been true to her word. I read his experience as a warning to Harry about the trying to weasel out yet again. Possibly the leg repair is an enchantment separate from the Mantle.
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The effects of iron on the Mantle and the effects of breaking Winter Law are distinct and different.
Yes. And why that is is an interesting question.
And Harry isn't surprised in Cold Days that his legs cease to work when he attempts to break Winter Law..
I read that as him being too busy panicking to be surprised.
Remember that the only weasel in the room is Harry. Mab has been true to her word.
Mab can be (and demonstrably is) a weasel despite techically always keeping her word. Remember the parasite thing?
I read his experience as a warning to Harry about the trying to weasel out yet again.
How is Harry trying to weasel out of anything? He never agreed to abide by Winter Law--he had only just found out that Winter Law was even a thing.
Possibly the leg repair is an enchantment separate from the Mantle.
Possibly. But if it is a non-permanent fae enchantment, the question remains: why wasn't it affected by iron?
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Someone mentioned that Winter Law may have a way for Harry to get out of the mantel. He didn't agree to a term of service, so, in theory, the two or three years he's been the Winter Knight may have completely satisfied his end of the deal.
It may have satisfied his deal, but that doesn't mean he can get out of it. There's still the issue of how one becomes an Ex-Winter Knight without dying in the process.
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You may want to think of the mantle as a supernatural exoskeleton. She didn't fix his back. Given sufficient time his back will heal itself. All the better to keep Harry in line.
Jim said she did fix his back. The deal was for his back to be healed, and she followed through on the deal. It's not the first time Mab has healed anyone. I do believe she healed Mac from a gunshot wound.
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Yes. And why that is is an interesting question.
Not really. Since we don't know how the Mantles work, period. It need be plausible, only in the sense that inflatable tanks were plausible in the run up to D-Day in France.
However the biggest difference is that one instance paralyzes Harry again and the other doesn't. Canon would suggest that Harry still carries the Mantle in both cases. Since the Mantle is quasi sentient it may well be in the case of the nail that the Mantle is hurting and in the case of Winter Law the Mantle knows the law even if Harry doesn't, and reminds him by removing whatever mechanism that keeps Harry functioning.I read that as him being too busy panicking to be surprised.
He correctly evaluates his mistake, which you can see from how his legs start working again. And look at my response to peregrine at the end. Mab can be (and demonstrably is) a weasel despite technically always keeping her word. Remember the parasite thing?
A weasel that keeps her word, which is more than you can say for Harry. Murphy tells him so. To answer your second question In the relevant exchange Toot tells Harry it's Winter law and Harry says he didn't sign on, at which point the Mantle shows him the error of his way. While Harry may not know Winter Law, the Mantle does.Possibly. But if it is a non-permanent fae enchantment, the question remains: why wasn't it affected by iron?
Just because the Mantle is having a bad day it doesn't mean that it just quit working, it means it just quits working well.Jim said she did fix his back. The deal was for his back to be healed, and she followed through on the deal. It's not the first time Mab has healed anyone. I do believe she healed Mac from a gunshot wound.
It turns out that the book doesn't support that position.That scared the hell out of me and confirmed one of my worst fears. When I'd consented to serve Mab, my back had been broken, my spine damaged. Taking up the mantle had covered what would have probably been a crippling and long terms injury. But without it, my body was only mortal. Better than most at recovering over time, but still human. Without the mantle, I wouldn't have legs, bladder or bowel control, or, most importantly, independence.
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Jim said she did fix his back. The deal was for his back to be healed, and she followed through on the deal. It's not the first time Mab has healed anyone. I do believe she healed Mac from a gunshot wound.
Exactly, she kept her part of the bargain, she also followed through on what she didn't promise.
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A weasel that keeps her word, which is more than you can say for Harry. Murphy tells him so.
He's broken one promise. Admittedly, he broke that multiple times, but so far as I can remember he hasn't broken a promise since Grave Peril. These days, I would say that he's more a weasel in Mab's style.
To answer your second question In the relevant exchange Toot tells Harry it's Winter law and Harry says he didn't sign on, at which point the Mantle shows him the error of his way. While Harry may not know Winter Law, the Mantle does.
This doesn't answer my second question. Harry doesn't know what Winter Law is. Sure, it sounds important, but for all he knows it is part of the bindings on Winter faeries and it's part of his purpose as Winter Knight that he is not bound by it. After all, Harry can still lie despite having signed on as Winter Knight and iron doesn't bother him unless he's stabbed with it, so there's no reason for him to assume that just because Toot subject to a restriction he would be as well.
Just because the Mantle is having a bad day it doesn't mean that it just quit working, it means it just quits working well.
...is there any evidence that the mantle is working apart from Harry's back being broken? Because I thought all the evidence pointed to the opposite.
It turns out that the book doesn't support that position.
There's a WoJ somewhere saying that this point is deliberately unclear, and Harry doesn't know everything about what's going on. As such, I feel fairly confident that Harry contradicting my does not prove my position wrong.
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It turns out that the book doesn't support that position.
The deal was that Mab would heal Harry if he became her Winter Knight. When Harry was going to break the laws of Winter, Mab reminded him of the deal. If he breaks his end of the bargain, Mab would return him to the state she found him in when they made their bargain.
Also Harry has been wrong in the books before. It wouldn't be unlike Mab to make him think that by giving up the Mantle he'd be paralyzed again. Just like Leah convinced Harry she gave him the ability to beat his former mentor when in reality she just gave his confidence a boost.
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He's broken one promise. Admittedly, he broke that multiple times, but so far as I can remember he hasn't broken a promise since Grave Peril. These days, I would say that he's more a weasel in Mab's style.
He lies in Changes. Which leads to Ghost Story.
This doesn't answer my second question. Harry doesn't know what Winter Law is. Sure, it sounds important, but for all he knows it is part of the bindings on Winter faeries and it's part of his purpose as Winter Knight that he is not bound by it. After all, Harry can still lie despite having signed on as Winter Knight and iron doesn't bother him unless he's stabbed with it, so there's no reason for him to assume that just because Toot subject to a restriction he would be as well.
Harry doesn't, the Mantle does. There is an existing legal mechanism in the real world which says ignorance of the law is no excuse. And in point of fact, this appears to be true in Winter. There is no Winter Law that says Harry can't lie.
...is there any evidence that the mantle is working apart from Harry's back being broken? Because I thought all the evidence pointed to the opposite.
So you want to ignore the broken back, because why? The text points to the Mantle being disrupted, which is different to it being broken. If you break your collar bone I'm pretty sure your whole day is gonna be shot, but your heart won't stop beating.
There's a WoJ somewhere saying that this point is deliberately unclear, and Harry doesn't know everything about what's going on. As such, I feel fairly confident that Harry contradicting my does not prove my position wrong.
Well maybe, I haven't seen it, but I acknowledge that it might exist. However it is pretty clear during the attack in the car Harry never loses his legs. And when Harry attempts to break Winter law by interrogating Lacuna his legs quit working.
@groinkick
Why would Mab heal Harry if she can use the Mantle to achieve the same results? By not healing him she retains leverage to manipulate him in the future as needed. She has a history of that kind of thing.
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Let's not forget that Harry outright and knowingly lied to Susan when talking about how the armor would protect her in Chichen Itza. He knew steel would go through fae enchantment like hot knife through butter, and was Winter Knight at that point.
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He lies in Changes. Which leads to Ghost Story.
Fair enough.
Harry doesn't, the Mantle does. There is an existing legal mechanism in the real world which says ignorance of the law is no excuse. And in point of fact, this appears to be true in Winter. There is no Winter Law that says Harry can't lie.
This is all completely true. None of it refutes my point that Harry is not trying to weasel out of anything in that scene.
So you want to ignore the broken back, because why?
Because I believe that Mab stuck an illusion in his head that it was broken, and that his back is separate from the mantle. If there is other evidence that the mantle is still active when Harry is stuck with iron, it would be evidence against this belief.
Why would Mab heal Harry if she can use the Mantle to achieve the same results?
Because her deal required her to heal Harry before he became her Knight.
Let's not forget that Harry outright and knowingly lied to Susan when talking about how the armor would protect her in Chichen Itza. He knew steel would go through fae enchantment like hot knife through butter, and was Winter Knight at that point.
Absolutely, but that wasn't breaking a promise.
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The deal was that Mab would heal Harry if he became her Winter Knight. When Harry was going to break the laws of Winter, Mab reminded him of the deal. If he breaks his end of the bargain, Mab would return him to the state she found him in when they made their bargain.
Also Harry has been wrong in the books before. It wouldn't be unlike Mab to make him think that by giving up the Mantle he'd be paralyzed again. Just like Leah convinced Harry she gave him the ability to beat his former mentor when in reality she just gave his confidence a boost.
Exactly, when you bargain with the Fae, especially with Mab you need an iron clad written contract and a electron microscope for reading the fine print and a bevy of lawyers and more than likely you'd still lose...
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Because her deal required her to heal Harry before he became her Knight.
No. I quoted the relevant passage before, the term was restore to health.“That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”
Being how he says in Cold Days that he can bench press 400 kg I'll call that in good health. This is Mab following the letter of her word. She has never asked Harry to do anything that she didn't have a way of coercing his cooperation.This is all completely true. None of it refutes my point that Harry is not trying to weasel out of anything in that scene.
I'll grant that. This is Harry doing what he always does, denying that any rules can bind him.Because I believe that Mab stuck an illusion in his head that it was broken, and that his back is separate from the mantle. If there is other evidence that the mantle is still active when Harry is stuck with iron, it would be evidence against this belief.
I give you evidence in the form of the books text and you tell me that other than that what else can I show you. I don't think it works that way.
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No. I quoted the relevant passage before, the term was restore to health.
It's debatable what "before my service begins" means. It could go either way.
I give you evidence in the form of the books text and you tell me that other than that what else can I show you. I don't think it works that way.
Normally I'd agree with you, but in this case I'm citing a WoJ which specifically says that the characters' perceptions are not reliable. (I'll try to find the exact wording when I'm not so busy--give me a day or two.)
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“That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love.”
He officially became Winter Knight after Slate's throat was cut and he had sex with Mab.. However just beforehe became her knight, his back was healed otherwise he could do neither. Then he asks permission to go and save his daughter since he'd then be her knight.
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Let's not forget that Harry outright and knowingly lied to Susan when talking about how the armor would protect her in Chichen Itza. He knew steel would go through fae enchantment like hot knife through butter, and was Winter Knight at that point.
Harry could lie his butt off as Winter Knight. What he couldn't do was break the laws of hospitality.
He officially became Winter Knight after Slate's throat was cut and he had sex with Mab.. However just beforehe became her knight, his back was healed otherwise he could do neither. Then he asks permission to go and save his daughter since he'd then be her knight.
Great point!
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Jim said she did fix his back. The deal was for his back to be healed, and she followed through on the deal. It's not the first time Mab has healed anyone. I do believe she healed Mac from a gunshot wound.
I read that as she dug the bullet out of him, and Mac being whatever Mac is was responsible for the fast healing.
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Harry could lie his butt off as Winter Knight. What he couldn't do was break the laws of hospitality.
Well, technically I think he could break the laws of hospitality, it's just that it would, per his words in Skin Game, be a spectacularly bad idea.
What does hospitality have to do with anything, anyway?
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Well, technically I think he could break the laws of hospitality, it's just that it would, per his words in Skin Game, be a spectacularly bad idea.
What does hospitality have to do with anything, anyway?
A lot, while it isn't quite what the neutral territory Mac's bar is, it is almost that.. Hostilities are suspended while the rules of hospitality are in force, to violate them is an act of war. Actually if I remember correctly in Grave Peril it is the rules of hospitality that Harry supposedly broke, that is why the RC wanted him so badly or go to war with the White Court.
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A lot, while it isn't quite what the neutral territory Mac's bar is, it is almost that.. Hostilities are suspended while the rules of hospitality are in force, to violate them is an act of war. Actually if I remember correctly in Grave Peril it is the rules of hospitality that Harry supposedly broke, that is why the RC wanted him so badly or go to war with the White Court.
Wait, what? I had thought hospitality came up in reference to a list of things that Harry could do but faeries couldn't, which was itself posted as an explanation for why Harry wouldn't necessarily assume that Winter Law applied to him (and so he wasn't trying to weasel out of his responsibilities as Mab's Knight when he broke it). I'm not sure how hospitality has to do with anything, unless the claim is that faeries are incapable of breaking it (which may be the case).
Also, I think there's a WoJ that the way neutral territory works is that everyone present is essentially Mab's guest.
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Very true. On a related note, does anyone have any theories for why Mab hasn't given Harry a way to know what Winter Law is before he breaks it?
I wish I had a good answer for you, but I only have another question which might lead to an answer. Do you remember the name Tam Lin? (According to Wikipedia, also a lot of other names.) Mab mentioned him after Harry flash froze a sidhe noble at his birthday party in Arctis Tor. Mab's exact words were: "No one has lifted a hand to them that way since the days of Tam Lin." This strongly suggests Tam Lin was the Winter Knight back in the day.
I've read a wiki article about Tam Lin. It mentions the fae were after him, I think they were going to sacrifice him. From what I read I pictured the Wild Hunt was after him. A mortal women hides Tam. There's a lot of shape shifting involved in keeping him hidden from the fae but eventually he escapes. I'm thinking that in one of the poems or stories about Tam Lin there might be a clue to the Winter Law Mab might want to keep hidden from Harry.
Looking over the wiki article, there are many people who have used the character of Tam Lin in their own stories and there was even a movie made in 1970 titled: Tam-Lin, also known as The Ballad of Tam-Lin, The Devil's Widow and The Devil's Woman. It was directed by Roddy McDowall and it took place in modern London of 1970. (Sort of an Austin Powers version of a spooky fairy tale.) From reading a review on IMDB, Ava Gardner played the Fairy Queen, though from looking at the movie poster, her character may have more in common with Lara Raith than Mab. The point I want to make is; for all we know Jim might have seen this movie on some late night cable channel and lifted an element from the movie to create a Winter Law or two. (I never even heard of this movie before I read the Wiki article.)
If anyone has read the original poem or song of Tam Lin, that might be a good place to look for clues.
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Wait, what? I had thought hospitality came up in reference to a list of things that Harry could do but faeries couldn't, which was itself posted as an explanation for why Harry wouldn't necessarily assume that Winter Law applied to him (and so he wasn't trying to weasel out of his responsibilities as Mab's Knight when he broke it). I'm not sure how hospitality has to do with anything, unless the claim is that faeries are incapable of breaking it (which may be the case).
Also, I think there's a WoJ that the way neutral territory works is that everyone present is essentially Mab's guest.
The Laws of Hospitality are an agreement between arcane groups, Winter Law is a property of Winter. Because of that, if Mab so chooses, the Laws of Hospitality become law for Winter. But Harry isn't Winter, he's human. His Mantle on the other hand is Winter. The Wiki describes Winter Law as emanating from Mab. Harry will know if he breaks Winter Law, the Mantle will tell him, kinda.
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The Laws of Hospitality are an agreement between arcane groups, Winter Law is a property of Winter. Because of that, if Mab so chooses, the Laws of Hospitality become law for Winter. But Harry isn't Winter, he's human. His Mantle on the other hand is Winter. The Wiki describes Winter Law as emanating from Mab. Harry will know if he breaks Winter Law, the Mantle will tell him, kinda.
But the Law of Hospitality applies to wizards as well, last time I checked, Harry is still a wizard.
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Yes, wizards are an arcane group. But Mab doesn't hold sway over them accepting by acts of violence. On the other hand Toot knows and obeys the way he breathes, automatically.
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But the Law of Hospitality applies to wizards as well, last time I checked, Harry is still a wizard.
I think in Skin Game Harry mentions that the consequences of breaking hospitality are that everyone tries to kill you and something about having super-bad luck from then on (it's the chapter where he meets Hades; I don't remember exactly what he says).
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I think in Skin Game Harry mentions that the consequences of breaking hospitality are that everyone tries to kill you and something about having super-bad luck from then on (it's the chapter where he meets Hades; I don't remember exactly what he says).
That has been true since Storm Front.