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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on January 31, 2019, 06:07:15 AM
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In Changes seven words were used to manipulate Dresden from one of the Fallen. In Ghost Story, Uriel balanced the scales with seven words. In Fool Moon seven words prevented Harry from murdering Denton while in Hexenwolf form.
I felt Denton's pulse beneath my tongue. Felt his whimpers vibrate into my mouth. So easy. One simple motion, and I would never have doubts, fears, questions. Never again. And, something inside of me said in a calm tone, you'll never be Harry Dresden again.
So a voice inside of Harry told him that he'd never be Harry Dresden again, using seven words. Coincidence? Maybe, but still curious to me.
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In Changes seven words were used to manipulate Dresden from one of the Fallen. In Ghost Story, Uriel balanced the scales with seven words. In Fool Moon seven words prevented Harry from murdering Denton while in Hexenwolf form.
I felt Denton's pulse beneath my tongue. Felt his whimpers vibrate into my mouth. So easy. One simple motion, and I would never have doubts, fears, questions. Never again. And, something inside of me said in a calm tone, you'll never be Harry Dresden again.
So a voice inside of Harry told him that he'd never be Harry Dresden again, using seven words. Coincidence? Maybe, but still curious to me.
The voice of his conscience speaking... Or even the alternate Harry that turns up in his fever dreams. Though that Harry may seem darker in a lot of respects, he speaks the truth.. It is the voice of free will, the choice was Harry's to make, the simple maybe even satisfying killing but for a price, he could never look at himself in the same way ever again..
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The voice of his conscience speaking... Or even the alternate Harry that turns up in his fever dreams. Though that Harry may seem darker in a lot of respects, he speaks the truth.. It is the voice of free will, the choice was Harry's to make, the simple maybe even satisfying killing but for a price, he could never look at himself in the same way ever again..
I agree. I also think it was too soon in the series for foreshadowing of that kind.
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The voice of his conscience speaking... Or even the alternate Harry that turns up in his fever dreams. Though that Harry may seem darker in a lot of respects, he speaks the truth.. It is the voice of free will, the choice was Harry's to make, the simple maybe even satisfying killing but for a price, he could never look at himself in the same way ever again..
When he was tempted by dark magic in Storm Front, and was on the verge of destroying Sells home but stopped short when his pentacle acted strangely, and he felt a hand holding his, was this also free will and his subconscious?
I'm in the camp that there are big players involved from the beginning, and won't be realized until later. Jim has hinted that we will learn of the big players working behind the scenes. I think he said in the wrestling book.
I agree. I also think it was too soon in the series for foreshadowing of that kind.
In the very next book we get: KoTC, Nemesis infection of Leah, Cowl, the beginning of the Red Court war, and as Cowl said "many things happened that night". We also know now that there are Fallen who are allied with the Outsiders... So if Nemesis has been involved since Book 1, it stands to reason there could be Angelic involvement since early books.
Jim has said that he has dropped things in books with the idea that people will pick up on things upon rereading them with knowledge from future books. Yeah I can be totally wrong, obviously. But still think that there are things that go all the way back to Storm Front that we won't understand until future books.
Also there was a strange shadow in Storm Front. Could it have been Sells as Shadowman? Possibly.... But I wouldn't be surprised if it's Nicodemus who showed up not too far down the line.
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I think the voice from Storm Front was his mother.
But still think that there are things that go all the way back to Storm Front that we won't understand until future books.
I always have to wonder how much was planned since it was written and how much is written and then linked back to because it works. And unless everything is spelled out plainly, I don't think we will ever really stop debating who did what.
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When he was tempted by dark magic in Storm Front, and was on the verge of destroying Sells home but stopped short when his pentacle acted strangely, and he felt a hand holding his, was this also free will and his subconscious?
I always felt that he felt the unseen spirit of his mother at that point, she after all left the pentacle for him. The pentacle is also the symbol of his magic, all that is good about it, things Eb taught him. So you can take it that the spirit of his mom stopped him, and touching it he remember all the things that Eb taught him about magic, his own belief in what magic stands for. He then made a choice of his own free will, not to use black magic to destroy the house and to kill.
had taught him
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I always felt that he felt the unseen spirit of his mother at that point, she after all left the pentacle for him. The pentacle is also the symbol of his magic, all that is good about it, things Eb taught him. So you can take it that the spirit of his mom stopped him, and touching it he remember all the things that Eb taught him about magic, his own belief in what magic stands for. He then made a choice of his own free will, not to use black magic to destroy the house and to kill.
had taught him
yeah, my theory is the seven words may have done that, given him his free will back. The result was that he removed the belt and was disgusted by what he almost became.
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In Changes seven words were used to manipulate Dresden from one of the Fallen. In Ghost Story, Uriel balanced the scales with seven words. In Fool Moon seven words prevented Harry from murdering Denton while in Hexenwolf form.
I felt Denton's pulse beneath my tongue. Felt his whimpers vibrate into my mouth. So easy. One simple motion, and I would never have doubts, fears, questions. Never again. And, something inside of me said in a calm tone, you'll never be Harry Dresden again.
So a voice inside of Harry told him that he'd never be Harry Dresden again, using seven words. Coincidence? Maybe, but still curious to me.
You could absolutely be right that the same entity whispered those words, but I don't think it was Uriel. In Ghost Story, Uriel inspired the 7 words, but he couldn't have actually been the entity speaking them, because the first word was "Lies." Mab wasn't lying, she was just wrong. She can't lie and Uriel knows that. Thus, for Uriel to say Mab was lying would make him a liar. I don't think he can lie either. That means some other entity must have spoken the actual words as the proxy of Uriel.
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You could absolutely be right that the same entity whispered those words, but I don't think it was Uriel. In Ghost Story, Uriel inspired the 7 words, but he couldn't have actually been the entity speaking them, because the first word was "Lies." Mab wasn't lying, she was just wrong. She can't lie and Uriel knows that. Thus, for Uriel to say Mab was lying would make him a liar. I don't think he can lie either. That means some other entity must have spoken the actual words as the proxy of Uriel.
Not necessarily. Here is the definition of "lie" I found:
lie
noun
1.an intentionally false statement.
"the whole thing is a pack of lies"
2.used with reference to a situation involving deception or founded on a mistaken impression.
"all their married life she had been living a lie"
If the seven words were using the second definition of "lie" then Uriel is in the clear to say them. We have a WoJ that Mab could say that she could change Harry because she believed it to be the case, given her past experience with Winter Knights. Thus, Uriel was just saying that her claim was founded on a mistaken impression, which indeed it was.
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You could absolutely be right that the same entity whispered those words, but I don't think it was Uriel. In Ghost Story, Uriel inspired the 7 words, but he couldn't have actually been the entity speaking them, because the first word was "Lies." Mab wasn't lying, she was just wrong. She can't lie and Uriel knows that. Thus, for Uriel to say Mab was lying would make him a liar. I don't think he can lie either. That means some other entity must have spoken the actual words as the proxy of Uriel.
Why wouldn't Uriel be able to lie? He's the spook, I think he CAN lie, just not in a way that compromises Free Will.
More importantly, he says lies. He doesn't say 'Mab lies' he says 'Mab's words are lies'. A semantic difference, but if Mab is wrong and doesn't know it, you could argue her words are still lies withou Mab lying.
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I'm not quite sure that an archangel would be bearing false witness, actually.
As for this suggestion... interesting. Not so much for it being seven, but just for the fact that it's a voice inside Harry.
My personal take? We already know that Harry's got his alter-ID sitting in the back of his mind, waiting for violence and lust and power. I have a feeling that in this case, the main narrator is mostly Id-Harry, and it's the Ego who's stating this, trying to pull back on the reigns. And the only reason why it appears as another voice is because Harry's just a kinda messed-up person who already personifies his splintered personality.
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Plausible, very plausible. I think it is highly likely there have been beings affecting events behind the scenes since the very beginning. In fact they pretty much had to have been, in cases like Uriel, because that it all they do all day long. They are always working. Just because Harry with his incredibly, hilariously limited perception is unaware is no bench mark for them NOT affecting events behind the scenes.
In terms of in the text, they are good possibilities but hard to prove. Just as easily, as some have pointed out, his conscience or sub-conscious etc. Jim doesn't tend to entirely let every act of choice be influenced, in fact he tends to highlight it massively when it does occur.
We should also not forget, that when Uriel in Ghost Story reveals the seven words whispered to him by the Fallen, that scene is different and that thought does not actually occur in the text during Changes. Even though we learn his memory was altered by Molly, that scene does not actually exist in the text of Changes.
And I do agree, just because Uriel called Mab a liar doesn't mean Mab though she was lying. She simply assumed what she said was truth. I don't think the fae have to tell objective truths, only believe that they do. Otherwise the fae would be WAY more powerful than they are. I think the only beings that might fall into that category are beings with Intellectus (funnily enough, like Archangels and the Mothers).
I don't believe Uriel can lie. Both as a limit of the universe/his being and his code of conduct. The Fallen are liars. That is one of their main point of difference. Whether Uriel can lie to immortals is another thing, but I suspect it would only be lies of omission etc rather than outright lies. It is a sin after all.
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The voice of his conscience speaking... Or even the alternate Harry that turns up in his fever dreams. Though that Harry may seem darker in a lot of respects, he speaks the truth.. It is the voice of free will, the choice was Harry's to make, the simple maybe even satisfying killing but for a price, he could never look at himself in the same way ever again..
Yeah, I read it as an internal dialog. It gives the reader the feeling of two voices, one urging Harry to kill, another, Harry's true self, reminding him of what he is and what he stands to lose. This presages the Winter Mantle. Mab's lie is a lie of omission. It's in the thing that she doesn't say.
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Not necessarily. Here is the definition of "lie" I found:
If the seven words were using the second definition of "lie" then Uriel is in the clear to say them. We have a WoJ that Mab could say that she could change Harry because she believed it to be the case, given her past experience with Winter Knights. Thus, Uriel was just saying that her claim was founded on a mistaken impression, which indeed it was.
The difference between a lie and a mere mistaken impression or falsehood is in the knowledge or intent. In the example you used, the married woman would be "living a lie" if, for example, she was pretending to love her husband when she knew that her feelings weren't real. Or maybe her spouse was a criminal and she was pretending her spouse was an upstanding citizen. Either way, it is about willful blindness. I don't think the Fae can do that - their subconscious would force them to confront the truth by preventing them from lying. Mab would have been physically unable to speak those words if she was merely hoping to live a lie by lying to herself.
Why wouldn't Uriel be able to lie? He's the spook, I think he CAN lie, just not in a way that compromises Free Will.
I think DonBugen handled this question quite well, but even assuming Uriel can bear false witness on some occasions, lying to somebody when you are telling them something it is extremely important for them to believe is not very smart. E.g., 2 + 2 = 3, trust me, Mab can't change who you are.
More importantly, he says lies. He doesn't say 'Mab lies' he says 'Mab's words are lies'. A semantic difference, but if Mab is wrong and doesn't know it, you could argue her words are still lies withou Mab lying.
Mab lied, Mab's words were lies, and Mab told a lie are all synonymous. The fact that you felt the need to specify that "you could argue" is a clear indicator that "semantics" is a poor justification for using the word Lies. Either JB made a poor word choice by using "Lies" over the equally available and more accurate choice of "Wrong," or JB chose the word lies because Uriel and was not the actual speaker and the word choice was tailored to the character speaking. JB isn't perfect, it's possible he just made a writing mistake, but in this case I don't think he did.
We should also not forget, that when Uriel in Ghost Story reveals the seven words whispered to him by the Fallen, that scene is different and that thought does not actually occur in the text during Changes. Even though we learn his memory was altered by Molly, that scene does not actually exist in the text of Changes.
Agreed, but why is that important other than that JB skipped the scene in Changes for story-telling purposes?
And I do agree, just because Uriel called Mab a liar doesn't mean Mab though she was lying. She simply assumed what she said was truth. I don't think the fae have to tell objective truths, only believe that they do. Otherwise the fae would be WAY more powerful than they are. I think the only beings that might fall into that category are beings with Intellectus (funnily enough, like Archangels and the Mothers).
If Mab didn't think she was lying, then Mab wasn't lying, she was simply wrong. Telling a lie requires knowledge of the falsity of the statement.
Mab's lie is a lie of omission.
That just doesn't fit. I don't think Mab was being clever and trying to mislead Harry into believing something that wasn't true, I think Mab believed what she said was true and she was simply wrong, because she doesn't truly understand free will.
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That just doesn't fit. I don't think Mab was being clever and trying to mislead Harry into believing something that wasn't true, I think Mab believed what she said was true and she was simply wrong, because she doesn't truly understand free will.
Mother Summer tells Harry that it is possible to master the mantle, that in fact, it had been done. And given that, Mab had to know.Mother Summer said. "Do you have a chance to remain yourself despite the tendency of the Mantle to mold your thoughts and desires? All Knights, Winter and Summer, have that chance. Most fail."
That quote is from Cold Days. It has two meanings. It tells Harry that he can remain himself and that Mab herself may yet retain some part of her humanity.
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The difference between a lie and a mere mistaken impression or falsehood is in the knowledge or intent. In the example you used, the married woman would be "living a lie" if, for example, she was pretending to love her husband when she knew that her feelings weren't real. Or maybe her spouse was a criminal and she was pretending her spouse was an upstanding citizen. Either way, it is about willful blindness.
No it isn't. If the woman had believed that her husband was John Smith, a banker, when he was actually Henry James, criminal and married to someone else, then she would be living a lie without any need for willful blindness, because the definition in this case for something being a lie isn't "willful blindness," it is "founded on a mistaken impression."
If Mab didn't think she was lying, then Mab wasn't lying, she was simply wrong. Telling a lie requires knowledge of the falsity of the statement.
Not necessarily, according to the definition I found. Seriously, I didn't make it up; it's the definition you get when you google "lie definition."
Mother Summer tells Harry that it is possible to master the mantle, that in fact, it had been done. And given that, Mab had to know.
Not necessarily. It could have happened before Mab's time. We already know that she wasn't the first Winter Queen.
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We already know that she wasn't the first Winter Queen.
We do?
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We do?
Here's the WoJ:
I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
Jim: No. Mab was not the first Mab. Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth. She was her sidekick and handmaiden. And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too. So she got to be much more powerful and awesome. But that was a while back. When that happened. And the same thing with Titania. The Winter Queens actually died. The last time things got awful in the wizard world. So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they’re a bit nervous. They’re a bit nervous about Dresden. Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden. Mab is keeping her enemies close.
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I had forgotten. Thank you. However it doesn't change anything. Cozarkian would have me believe that she is ignorant of the nature of her Knight. That's like owning a gun and not understanding the safety. Rereading the selection where he awakes in the cave reinforces my belief.
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However it doesn't change anything. Cozarkian would have me believe that she is ignorant of the nature of her Knight. That's like owning a gun and not understanding the safety. Rereading the selection where he awakes in the cave reinforces my belief.
Here's the WoJ:
Jim: As far as Mab is concerned, she’s telling the truth, because she’s telling the truth from her experience, as she knows it. Dresden, however, is getting an earful of truth on a more cosmic level.
(Note: this comes from a WoJ that deals with whether or not Mab was lying. However, since it was using "lie" in the sense of definition 1 I posted rather than definition 2, I have excluded that part for clarity.)
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Cozarkain - I get the conundrum you're talking about, but I think you might not be giving the idea that Mab's lie is a lie of omission a fair enough shake. Faeries cannot speak lies; however, they do nothing but lie through omission.
In addition, take into account the comment to which Uriel (because it is Uriel; he's not about to go and rope some lower being into lying for him, especially considering the circumstance with Collin Murphy) responds to:
"I have his oath, ancient one. What he has given is mine by right and you may not gainsay it. He is mine to shape as i please."
She's saying this for Harry to hear, but she's not saying it to Harry. From the perspective that the quote is being said, it is absolutely true. Demonreach cannot do anything to stop what she does; she has the right, not Harry, to work her will on him. The fact that she never says "As long as he doesn't put up an epic amount of will to counteract, which almost no Winter Knight has ever done" doesn't really need to be said, as Mab's statement is truthful to the letter of the word.
Yet Harry's understanding of Mab's words is not truthful. The Fae are deceitful, manipulative creatures, and Mab's omission here is critical. And while a lie of omission is permissible to the Fae, it is still a lie to an Archangel of the Lord. Therefore, Uriel is perfectly correct in stating "Lies," rather than "False" or something else.
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I think DonBugen and Nadia have pretty much covered what I was going to say in response, Cozarkian.
I can concede that it would have been perhaps neater to say "wrong" rather than "lies", as it leaves less room for ambiguity and I think you can see that Jim in his quote is covering that. Mab only knows what she thinks she knows, but beings like Uriel know absolute Truth. There is a significant difference. And that Mother Summer quote that Morriswalters found reinforces that. Beings with Intellectus (especially of their size of Intellectus) are on the Cosmic level. Also Angels don't lie unless they are Fallen - so even if Uriel wasn't speaking, it couldn't have been another Angel filing in. And it certainly wouldn't have been a Mortal/Soul from Purgatory - I suspect that would go against everything they are trying to do. Lying is a Sin - especially by Immortals (remember how angry Uriel gets when he discusses one of the Fallen lying?) It compromises Free Will.
As to why it was important that JB skipped that scene, I was highlighting that just because something happens explicitly in the books that could be a hint at interference by the Big Players, does not necessarily make it so. Mostly when something of that nature occurs, it happens off-screen or JB highlights it massively on screen. Which is not to say those instances of internal dialogue are not instances of the Big Players interfering, but I found it less likely because of such examples as the Ghost Story/Changes inconsistency.
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Harry to Mab on his sickbed in Demonreach in Ghost Story.
"You can't make me your monster," I slurred. "Doesn't work. And you know it."
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Back to the intervention of powers in Fool Moon. What does everyone think of Cowl being the wizard that gave the FBI their Hexenwulf pelts. He seems like the most likely suspect to me.
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Harry to Mab on his sickbed in Demonreach in Ghost Story.
Harry could be wrong.
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I had forgotten. Thank you. However it doesn't change anything. Cozarkian would have me believe that she is ignorant of the nature of her Knight. That's like owning a gun and not understanding the safety. Rereading the selection where he awakes in the cave reinforces my belief.
First, I was not asking you to believe that Mab doesn't understand her Knight. I was asking you to believe that Mab doesn't understand the full extent of the power of free will. Specifically, she doesn't understand that Harry giving his oath and accepting the Mantle by his own free will doesn't make him hers to mold. She doesn't understand that the Mantle can be conquered even while desiring a Knight that will fight it as long as possible.
On second thought, however, it is indisputable that Mab does not understand her Knight. I don't recall if it is text or WoJ, but we have definitive proof that Harry surprises Mab. She probably has a better understanding of Harry than he does of himself, but there are some things about him she doesn't understand.
I'm not sure the gun analogy is accurate, but if it was, I point you to the Molly short story. As Winter Lady, Molly is absolutely carrying around a full arsenal of weapons without understanding the safety features on most of them. Mab has a lot more experience than Molly and has learned the safety features for most of the Queen's weapons, but it is possible she still doesn't fully understand one or two.
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On second thought, however, it is indisputable that Mab does not understand her Knight. I don't recall if it is text or WoJ, but we have definitive proof that Harry surprises Mab. She probably has a better understanding of Harry than he does of himself, but there are some things about him she doesn't understand.
Here's the WoJ:
Jim:The thing is that Mab never really figures Dresden quite right. She never gets it right when she tries to predict what he will do.
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In addition, take into account the comment to which Uriel (because it is Uriel; he's not about to go and rope some lower being into lying for him, especially considering the circumstance with Collin Murphy) responds to:
I'm not suggesting he did. I'm suggesting he used a proxy and didn't have control over the precise seven words used, only that the speaker was limited to seven words and that those words should be used to deliver the message that Mab was incorrect. This would be similar to the TWG inspiring the Bible but not writing it. It's also similar to how Mab used proxies in the very same story. Unlike Demonreach, who appears to have literally spoke through his proxy, Mab merely gave her proxies (Leah and Inez) instructions/inspiration regarding what she wanted Harry to know. Mab's proxies actual words were their own.
Cozarkain - I get the conundrum you're talking about, but I think you might not be giving the idea that Mab's lie is a lie of omission a fair enough shake. Faeries cannot speak lies; however, they do nothing but lie through omission.
In the Mab quote you provided, the first sentence is true, the second is true, the third is false but Mab believes it to be true. The WOJ in the post above yours proves that Mab believes the third sentence to be true and is not merely lying by omission. Also, the question here isn't actually whether Mab was lying. She wasn't, because she can't. The issue is that the speaker called Mab a liar, which conflicts with our understanding that the Fae can't lie.
The first question is whether Uriel could have called Mab's words "Lies" without bearing false witness. In response, others have argued that the word lie has multiple definitions. I disagree that the other definitions apply. The DV, at least when talking about the Fae, uses strictly the traditional definition (lies of omission, by definition in the DV, are not lies). It is fact that the Fae cannot lie, period. The only definition applicable in the DV (at least when discussing the Fae) is the traditional definition. Switching to another definition is equivocating (an informal logical fallacy).
I simply do not believe Uriel, a being with cosmic truth with a perfect understanding of the lie-prohibition on the Fae, when speaking to Harry, a person Uriel knows to also understand the lie-prohibition against the Fae, would equivocate on the definition of lie. That is especially true given the circumstance that Uriel was not attempting to mislead Harry but rather was attempting to educate Harry on a very important truth - that Harry still has free will even after becoming the WK. It simply doesn't pass the smell test.
Therefore, in my opinion, it was either a very minor and isolated incident of bad writing, or it was a clue that Uriel was using a proxy in a story where proxies were an important theme.
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Harry could be wrong.
Also, Mab can learn. Mab could believed have believed that she could make Harry her monster in GS and then, when Harry defied her, she learned that she was wrong and obtained a better understanding of free will.
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Harry surprises her, but that isn't to say she doesn't understand how the Mantle works. Those are two separate issues. Uriel didn't say she was wrong, he said her words were lies. Jim doesn't leave a whole lot of room to maneuver in this instance. He says Mab can't lie. Uriel says her words are lies. And Harry tells her she knows it. Had Harry told her instead at that moment that she was wrong or mistaken I might feel differently about it, but he didn't.
From the Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie).Lying by omission, also known as a continuing misrepresentation or quote mining, occurs when an important fact is left out in order to foster a misconception. Lying by omission includes the failure to correct pre-existing misconceptions.
Just as an aside, the bit about the Mab being unable to lie, is a shortcut. More properly she can't speak a direct lie. Here is an example of a lie of omission from Summer Knight. It's a play on his expectations.Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart. It took my breath, and I felt my heart skip a beat, two, before it labored into rhythm again. I gasped and swayed, and only leaning against the door kept me from falling down completely.
"Dammit," I muttered, trying to keep my voice down. "We had a deal."
"I agreed not to punish you for refusing me, wizard. I agreed not to punish or harass you by proxy." Mab smiled. "I did that just for spite."
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From the Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie).Just as an aside, the bit about the Mab being unable to lie, is a shortcut. More properly she can't speak a direct lie. Here is an example of a lie of omission from Summer Knight. It's a play on his expectations.
GS does not have the structure of a lie by omission. Here is an example of a lie by omission: "If you enter this deal, I, Mab, promise I won't hurt you as punishment for rejecting my request for a favor (but I don't promise I won't hurt you just for spite)." Here is an example of a direct lie: "If you enter this deal, I, Mab, promise I won't hurt you as punishment for rejecting my request for a favor (unless I disagree with your reasons for doing so)."
The GS quote takes the form of the latter: "He is mine to shape as I please (unless he exercises free will)."
Also, again, it doesn't really matter how and why Mab was able to say what she said. What matters is that Uriel would not have said she her words were lies when he knows she can't lie and when he knows that Harry knows she can't lie. Here's the form of the seven words: <Factually questionable assertion that has to be justified by equivocation>, <very important truth>.
Here's the form that Uriel would have used: <Factually accurate assertion>, <very important truth>.
Here are examples of how that could have been done using only seven words:
Wrong, . . .
No, . . .
False, . . .
Incorrect, . . .
Exaggeration, . . .
Hyperbole, . . .
Deception, . . .
Deceiver, . . .
The speaker chose the worst possible word to use in the situation. Cosmic master minds of manipulation don't do that.
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"Because it doesn't have anything to do with balancing the scales of one of the Fallen lying to me," I said. "You haven't done any fortune-cookie whispers into my head have you?"
"No," he said. "Not Yet."
"Well that's what I mean," I said. "The scale still isn't balanced. And I don't think you send people back just for Kicks."
And then at Harry's awakening.And a voice_a very calm, very gentle, very rational voice whispered in my ear, "Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
7 words.
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It's possible that Uriel used the word "lies" because he knew that it would have a stronger effect on Harry, and the multiple definition of the word "lie" gave him the leeway to do so.
He could have used the word "lies" because Uriel views it as a lie, since it is an untruth that would work to subvert Harry's exercise of free will, even if it is not a lie by faerie definition. As has been made clear to me in another thread, people frequently see very different things as lies, and I don't see how being different species with completely different codes of conduct would do anything but increase that tendency.
It's also possible that he was trying to warn Harry that Mab was nemfected, but if so, she appears to be resisting well for the moment.
It seems extremely unlikely that Uriel did not have control over the specific words used, given that, as I remember it, in Ghost Story Uriel makes a point of saying that one of the Fallen used seven very specific words to undermine Harry's free will.
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And it was all your fault Harry.
"Lies. Mab cannot change who you are."
And just so the reader won't miss it, Jim has Harry count to seven after the second quote. Uriel balances the scale by undoing Mab's lie. I think it's why he uses the word. Mab may not be fully aware of the lie, it isn't clear. So my lie of omission may be incorrect, but the text is what it is.
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Jumping ahead of the conversation about lies, and back to the initial post, I do think it could be Uriel or one of his agents, and I think Harry’s father is one of them. Ghost story makes it clear that the only balance for “the other side” telling him 7 words was that Uriel got to also put 7 words in his head. The entire out of body experience was voluntary. There’s nothing in there that says there haven’t been other cases where something whispered things in his head to be balanced. I’m not sure if it’s been discussed, but to reference my earlier point about Malcolm, the reason I think he’s working for Uriel’s office is that he shows up right after Shiela does and says that it’s because the other side broke the rules.
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Uriel wouldn't have told Harry that seven-word truth in Fool Moon unless some other angelic being had told him a seven-word lie prior to then, and angelic beings were way out of Harry's league as of Fool Moon.
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... angelic beings were way out of Harry's league as of Fool Moon.
Harry was a Starborn wizard. He may not have achieved great power yet, but he was far ahead of the curve for most wizards his age. And the Angel-caliber entities will know he's Starborn, and will see his early power pointing to his upcoming puissance.
And we KNOW they play long-term and often subtle strategies...
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Faeries do lie.
They lie automatically, reflexively.
They lie as readily as they breathe, and with far more pleasure.
They just don't (knowingly) utter any literal falsehoods.
But they will present a suite of facts with implications designed to ensnare the attention and the emotions of the listener; imply risks that have no bearing and/or rewards that are not available (or at least, vanishingly-small chances of those risks/rewards); make the listener ACT on the hopes and fears that have been elicited, lying to the poor sod without ever actually saying anything false that "is a lie."
Substitute above "mislead" if you prefer.
I think Uriel would still call it a "lie," even if Mab (evidently) would not.
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Harry was a Starborn wizard. He may not have achieved great power yet, but he was far ahead of the curve for most wizards his age. And the Angel-caliber entities will know he's Starborn, and will see his early power pointing to his upcoming puissance.
And we KNOW they play long-term and often subtle strategies...
Did some Fallen Angel tell Harry a Lie in Storm Front or earlier in Fool Moon, though? It's not like Uriel to tell Harry a Truth for any other reason.
But then, Uriel isn't the only archangel, is he?
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Did some Fallen Angel tell Harry a Lie in Storm Front or earlier in Fool Moon, though?
We don't know. It's even possible that there was a lie from before or between the novels; something off-screen, or in a short or a comic.
It's not like Uriel to tell Harry a Truth for any other reason.
We don't actually know that, either. If he felt Harry had been actively deceived, it may not have needed an actual "lie" in words, for Uriel to feel justified in Setting Things Straight.