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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Salusen on January 21, 2019, 07:22:59 PM
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First time poster here!
I've been a fan of Jim Butcher and the Dresden files since I first read Small Favor back in 2010.
I've been wondering lately if Mac wasn't Fae after all. Could he possibly be of the angelic variety? A grigori? Or maybe the scion of a grigori and a human (or Fae!): nephilim? I mean if Kincaid's the scion of a demon and a human, shouldn't there be an angelic version? I don't know if this makes a lot of sense. Hahahah. But Mab respects him (and she doesn't respect lightly) and he seems to be older than he really is. Stronger than a normal human, and very knowledgeable of anything supernatural.
Also, Harry's mentioned several times in the books that Mac's brews are heavenly. Could this be a clue? Am I grasping at straws here? Hahaha.
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First time poster here!
I've been a fan of Jim Butcher and the Dresden files since I first read Small Favor back in 2010.
I've been wondering lately if Mac wasn't Fae after all. Could he possibly be of the angelic variety? A grigori? Or maybe the scion of a grigori and a human (or Fae!): nephilim? I mean if Kincaid's the scion of a demon and a human, shouldn't there be an angelic version? I don't know if this makes a lot of sense. Hahahah. But Mab respects him (and she doesn't respect lightly) and he seems to be older than he really is. Stronger than a normal human, and very knowledgeable of anything supernatural.
Also, Harry's mentioned several times in the books that Mac's brews are heavenly. Could this be a clue? Am I grasping at straws here? Hahaha.
Welcome! Glad to see a new poster on here. You aren't grasping at straws. There are many theories in line with what you have proposed. Jim has said that "Mac hasn't done anything a mortal can't do", however I do think he could be fooling us. For example Vadderung does not work for Mab, while his Mantle, Kringle does. Jim also said he's given misinformation a couple of times lol.
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Jim has said that "Mac hasn't done anything a mortal can't do", however I do think he could be fooling us
Cold Days pg 515
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Cold Days pg 515
? there is a storm coming? What's this got to do with Mac, or my quote?
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Oh okay. Yeah I know he couldn't heal himself until after Mab pulled out the bullet. Which was iron. So he could have fae blood. And I do remember that Kringle once said that none of them now were what they were before. So does that apply to Mac? I'm still gunning for the half angel theory. Maybe half fae and half angel?
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My only problem with the half-angel would be that just like the naagaloshi(sp?) angels weren't created to reproduce.
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My only problem with the half-angel would be that just like the naagaloshi(sp?) angels weren't created to reproduce.
That depends on what kind of angel you're talking about. The Nephilim were the offsprings of "the sons of God and the daughters of men."
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That depends on what kind of angel you're talking about. The Nephilim were the offsprings of "the sons of God and the daughters of men."
Truth. Had to do a little internet surfing there, but there aren't a lot of material on him.
Here's another theory: What if Mac is Oberon? Hahaha
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My only problem with the half-angel would be that just like the naagaloshi(sp?) angels weren't created to reproduce.
I'm fairly certain Jim said Grey was the offspring of a Naagloshii, so ...
Mac has healed faster than humans can several times while unconscious, see Cold Days with the rope burns he didn't have and the gun shot. He did something humans can do, but he did it in a shorter time frame?
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I'm fairly certain Jim said Grey was the offspring of a Naagloshii, so ...
Mac has healed faster than humans can several times while unconscious, see Cold Days with the rope burns he didn't have and the gun shot. He did something humans can do, but he did it in a shorter time frame?
So maybe he's some kind of superhuman. But I've been going through the internet looking for clues about a Watcher. And lately, I checked the "Flatterer" too. So I've got new theories (hahaha!): that Mac is either the great flatterer of the ghosts, Hanaaumoe, in Hawaiian mythology (this might actually be baseless) or an actual watcher - and storyteller.. Aesop himself.
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It just occurred to me that NOBODY ever mentioned who the third walker was. Is it Mac?
Oh the possibilities!
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I haven't heard that one. Interesting.
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Mac is out.
Mac watches things occassionally.
Mac brews.
These seem to be his 3 main traits. Nr 1 points at him being 'more' at some point, but I don't think we can just toss 2 and 3 overboard. Especially number 3 suggests he must be connected to brewing somehow. Oddly, none of the Grigori/Watchers have an obvious connection to brewing, so far as I can tell (even though this is usually included in ancient lists of 'crafts').
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I still like the theory that Mac is Odin's missing eye. He's a "watcher". He says he's "out".
Or the theory that he was something important and made a deal to stay out of matters in order to keep something else out. This may be part of the trigger for the BAT. Mac is forced to get involved and whatever he made the deal with gets set free.
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Former Gatekeeper? Something happened a thousand years ago that got the Sidhe put on gate duty. Who were the prior guardians of the gate?
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@morris
Former Gatekeeper? Something happened a thousand years ago that got the Sidhe put on gate duty. Who were the prior guardians of the gate?
Common theory is the Viking pantheon and the Einherjaren defended the gates. While the Greek pantheon took care of the seasons like the Fae do now. The rise of Christianity and the Battle of Hastings caused the changeover
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Yes and another says the Jotun abandoned their duty at the Gate, to go fight in the Battle of Hastings. I figure Mac to be a Jotun who got betrayed by his fellow giants when they bailed. Or something to that effect.
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@morris
Common theory is the Viking pantheon and the Einherjaren defended the gates. While the Greek pantheon took care of the seasons like the Fae do now. The rise of Christianity and the Battle of Hastings caused the changeover
The timing seems off for that to be happening at the same time, though - the Norse pantheon was a ging concern way past the Greek.
So I can certainly imagine the changing of the guard at the Gates happening circa Hastings, but the Fae took over the seasons (and the Greeks turned less relevant) before that.
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I haven't heard that one. Interesting.
There was a reddit subpost just a few days after I posted this reply that asked if Mac was probably the Walker known as He Who Walks Beside. Which hasn't ever been mentioned in the Dresden Files as far as I remember. But given that the other two walkers are named He Who Walks Before and He Who Walks Behind...
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I had heard that name before, but not that it was Mac.
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Mac is out.
Mac watches things occassionally.
Mac brews.
These seem to be his 3 main traits. Nr 1 points at him being 'more' at some point, but I don't think we can just toss 2 and 3 overboard. Especially number 3 suggests he must be connected to brewing somehow. Oddly, none of the Grigori/Watchers have an obvious connection to brewing, so far as I can tell (even though this is usually included in ancient lists of 'crafts').
I agree with those 3 things being major Mac things. So I've been back reading the Dresden Files (because I'm bored and I reread all my books if I am and I super randomly decided to start the Dresden files), and I realized that Jim has never mentioned the Egyptian pantheon at all. There is a figure in folklore named Gambrinus, King of Lager Beer. He's supposed to have invented beer and learned the art of brewing from Osiris and Isis. According to some sources, he might have been a giant who was descendant of Noah and was the first mortal to brew beer (which probably explains why makes it sooo good).
Some Bible myths say giants are offspring of angels and humans. So maybe Mac is half-angel and is the actual king of beer?
BTW, Harry's never soulgazed Mac right?
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So maybe Mac is half-angel and is the actual king of beer?
Then his name would be Bud instead of Mac.
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Then his name would be Bud instead of Mac.
I think you were joking and I get it. But I also think you were being sarcastic, so I briefly debated ignoring you.
But here I am, replying. Damn.
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You are correct that Harry hasn't soulgazed Mac. (Or he has and Jim has never mentioned on or off page).
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That makes me think of Morgan, in Dead Beat, making a very conscious effort to NOT look at Mac when he is scanning the bar with his sight.
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That makes me think of Morgan, in Dead Beat, making a very conscious effort to NOT look at Mac when he is scanning the bar with his sight.
Which means Morgan knew who and what Mac was. Is.
Do you suppose the Blackstaff also knows Mac? Or at least the being that's posing as Mac?
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It seems that most people that encounter Mac in Harry's presence seem to give him a measure of respect or courtesy. Much more so than they would a normal.
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It seems that most people that encounter Mac in Harry's presence seem to give him a measure of respect or courtesy. Much more so than they would a normal.
True. At first, I used to think that they respected Mac because he was the only vanilla mortal who got his place accorded neutral grounds. But then it occurred to me that you'd have to be at least as powerful as Marcone to be recognized by the Sidhe.
So, neutral grounds. Watcher. Beer brewer. Dangerous. I'm still leaning towards scion of a human and an angel who learned how to brew beer and who has been alive for at least 1000 years. Enough for the Outsiders to know him, and enough for Mab and Odin to respect him.
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I think Mac is King Arthur.
I read somewhere that Butcher was a fan of Tim Powers who wrote Drawing of the Dark. The theme is old gods wandering the earth in different forms. Similar to how the older gods exist in different forms in Dresdenverse. The story revolves around a magical beer “the dark” that can only be brewed every few hundred years.
In the book, Arthur is the protagonist, not the brewer. But ever since Small Favor where Harry faced down the Gruff and Mac brought out the dark beer, I’ve been convinced of this. Plus, if Merlin and Excalibur exist in the Dresdenverse then King Arthur obviously exists too.
Prove me wrong. ;-)
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I think Mac is King Arthur.
I read somewhere that Butcher was a fan of Tim Powers who wrote Drawing of the Dark. The theme is old gods wandering the earth in different forms. Similar to how the older gods exist in different forms in Dresdenverse. The story revolves around a magical beer “the dark” that can only be brewed every few hundred years.
In the book, Arthur is the protagonist, not the brewer. But ever since Small Favor where Harry faced down the Gruff and Mac brought out the dark beer, I’ve been convinced of this. Plus, if Merlin and Excalibur exist in the Dresdenverse then King Arthur obviously exists too.
Prove me wrong. ;-)
Ohhh, that's a very interesting theory! Which story was that about the beer though??
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(Mac)Arthur: "I'll shall return!"
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(Mac)Arthur: "I'll shall return!"
This cracked me up. Hahahah!
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You're welcome.
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> Which story was that about the beer though??
The story is an entire book, Drawing of the Dark by Tim Powers. It was published in 1979, right around the time JB was sick with strep throat as a child. It’s a great book and stuck with me for a long time.
This would fulfill all the WoJ requirements for Mac. “Plain vanilla mortal”, “dangerous”. Also an easy explanation for why he knows Mab and other high-level characters.
It explains why Harry hasn’t been able to get rid of Excalibur, we’re waiting for book 20 or the trilogy when he hands it back to Arthur. I wonder if Harry ever had the Swords in MacAnnallys, I don’t think so. Were there 13 knights of the round table, like 13 tables? I may be misremembering that.
To speculate on how he came to his current situation, maybe he was one of the signatories of the Accords, and agreeing to be “out” was a tradeoff for MacAnnallys accorded neutral ground. The Denarians wouldn’t sign unless Mac agreed to retire or something. When the outsiders call him “watcher” they are mocking him because they know he can’t do anything without violating the agreement. That’s also why he wasn’t tied up in Cold Days. Incidentally in Cold Days he is familiar with Sidhe bargaining.
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Wasn't Mac tied up but not bruised?
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> Which story was that about the beer though??
The story is an entire book, Drawing of the Dark by Tim Powers. It was published in 1979, right around the time JB was sick with strep throat as a child. It’s a great book and stuck with me for a long time.
This would fulfill all the WoJ requirements for Mac. “Plain vanilla mortal”, “dangerous”. Also an easy explanation for why he knows Mab and other high-level characters.
It explains why Harry hasn’t been able to get rid of Excalibur, we’re waiting for book 20 or the trilogy when he hands it back to Arthur. I wonder if Harry ever had the Swords in MacAnnallys, I don’t think so. Were there 13 knights of the round table, like 13 tables? I may be misremembering that.
To speculate on how he came to his current situation, maybe he was one of the signatories of the Accords, and agreeing to be “out” was a tradeoff for MacAnnallys accorded neutral ground. The Denarians wouldn’t sign unless Mac agreed to retire or something. When the outsiders call him “watcher” they are mocking him because they know he can’t do anything without violating the agreement. That’s also why he wasn’t tied up in Cold Days. Incidentally in Cold Days he is familiar with Sidhe bargaining.
I remember that there were 25 knights of the round table, based on general folklore pulled on the internet. But I've always thought the the significance of the 13 in Mac's pub was so that magic and bad vibes wouldn't mess his place up. At least that's how Harry explained it in the book. Forgot which one. I think it was Storm Front.
Mac as Arthur FITS. And I'll read that book, thanks for recommending it!
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It's explained that the bar is set up the way it is to protect against the effect practitioners have on tech in several books. I always took it to mean that 13 was part of it.
Wikipedia's round table page says that the number of knights is anywhere from 12 to "150 or more," which you gotta love for vagueness. In some stories, the table was built because the barons were arguing over matters of precedence, so that table would have as many seats as there were barons. If there were only 12 knights of the round table, the table would have 13 or 14 seats because I don't think Merlin and Arthur would count as "knights," but Arthur definitely would have a seat at the table and I imagine Merlin would to. (I've never been able to get into an Arthur book, so I'm probably not the best guy to get specifics from).
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Gregori / Nephilim / former Angel makes sense for several reasons. He's called "Watcher," specifically, and there are few "watchers" who are also 'out', in the supernatural/religious sense. Jim Butcher has stated that he's already told us what Mac is, but that you have to be a bit nerdy to really know, and so I'm assuming religious nerd counts. Being one of those myself, I think that this is pretty on the ball.
Furthermore, it's worth mentioning, in a meta sense, that Jim's described in detail his method of characterization, and especially how he describes characters. He chooses a bunch of different words and phrases that not only describe the character, but put in your mind a sense of who they are. Kind of like how Karrin is described as "someone's favorite aunt" a bunch of times, or how words describing Thomas routinely have a slightly more sensual tone.
Mac's descriptive language is often heavenly in nature - or, at least, how Mac's ale is often described. God is often referenced when Mac is described for the first time. He's always described as a man of unknown age, bald, wearing "spotless" white. He shows deference to Mouse, who is "little brother" to Uriel, and in all ways acts honestly, respectfully, and with integrity.
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Here's one: Nicholas Flamel, mortal alchemist who discovered the secret to immortality. It gives him regenerative immortality, which kicks in every night when he goes to sleep. Since becoming immortal, he got involved with a whole lot of stuff on the spooky side, eventually helping out against the Outsiders. As a mortal, there was little he could do to fight the Outsiders, instead keeping an immortal "Watch" against their attack. After decades or centuries of witnessing horror after horror, "Mac" had enough, and settled down in Chicago to ply his alchemical trade brewing awesome beer instead of concoctions against the enemies of reality.
See, there you go. You can make so many existing fictional characters (though Nicholas Flamel was real) fit that the suspect pool is too wide and deep to be much functional use.
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All I know is this...
When I first saw Mac and the bar, and since, I was immediately reminded of Callahan's Crosstime Saloon. It also has such an enigmatic bartender, who has influence all out of proportion to what he actually does.
If it is based on that, and you want to know who, or even what, Mac is, all I gotta say is, get used to disappointment.
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I think he might be Archangel Chamuel. Mac is in the name, and he is the angel of peaceful relationships and a comforter. Neutrual grounds and bartender?
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If he's an angel, I think he'd be Zephron or Ithuriel, the two angels who guarded Eden as described in Paradise Lost. The caught Satan the first time he tried to do his whisper thing, and failed the second time.
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Hmm, another point on the Arthur theory. Mac shows magical healing ability. The scabbard of Excalibur has magical healing abilities. In DV, the sword's magic is actually linked to the nail. If the scabbard's magic is also linked to a component (like a jewel), Mac could be carrying that around and using that to heal.
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As far as I remember, Excalibur's scabbard either prevented blood loss (as in you wouldn't bleed if you were cut), or death from blood loss, not exactly healing. Unless Jim's interpreting it completely differently in the DV, which is totally possible.
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It just occurred to me that NOBODY ever mentioned who the third walker was. Is it Mac?
Oh the possibilities!
Sorry to necro this post, but I just found it...
Isn't "He Who Walks Besides" actually Nemesis?