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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: pyromapes on November 28, 2018, 01:14:07 AM
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This has bugged me for ages.
Dresden killed Susan. She had just killed someone and was becoming a vampire when she died.
Dresden, shortly after, died himself. Via the train he learned there were different places people ended up.
He met ghosts, he met angels.
He never asked what happened to Susan. He was bothered that he'd killed her, but he never sought any knowledge on where she'd gone after he killed her. Logically, the guilt would be eating him up, we even see that it's the case in a later book.
But he never asked if this woman, the mother of his child, one of the true loves of his life, who had just commited murder and was losing her humanity as she was killed, by him, went to whatever counts as heaven, or hell. He never got what I would have thought of as a massive piece of closure and it never even crossed his mind in the book to ask.
This is one plot point that just bugs the heck out of me and it still isn't resolved.
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He never knows what happens to the dead. And only his father has spoken to him from beyond. His father tells him that death is a door one person wide.
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He didn't ask about Kim Delaney, Justin, the people he burned at Bianca's place, or anyone else, either.
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True, but he never even asked for a hint.
I don't really expect he'd get an answer, the main thing that bugs me is it doesn't seem like a part of the whole thing that bugs him.
I mean, don't red court vampires lose their soul when they turn, and she was turning when he killed her. Wouldn't he at least be curious if her soul got though at all? I reckon he'd get an answer for that at least.
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Interesting points, but I think we can cut Harry a little slack here for not asking, because face it, being dead is a huge adjustment, even for Harry.
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He probably didn't ask because he's scared of the answer.
If I were Harry, I'd be horrified to learn that I sent the woman I loved to Hell. If that's even a possible answer, I could see him not asking to avoid hearing that kind of truth.
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Doubt she'd end up in Hell anyway, one murder (Is it murder when he's holding a knife to your throat?) can't overshadow a life of doing good, and that she did, in spades.
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He probably did not ask because he knew he would not get an answer anyway.
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Doubt she'd end up in Hell anyway, one murder (Is it murder when he's holding a knife to your throat?) can't overshadow a life of doing good, and that she did, in spades.
A lot of her doing good involved killing people, after she joined the Fellowship. They were basically a terrorist organization and vampires aren't the only things they killed or blew up.
Who knows how the cosmology really shakes out -- Dresden does a lot of good, but he was on the tracks for the southbound train.
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A lot of her doing good involved killing people, after she joined the Fellowship. They were basically a terrorist organization and vampires aren't the only things they killed or blew up.
Who knows how the cosmology really shakes out -- Dresden does a lot of good, but he was on the tracks for the southbound train.
It is not just about what you did but ultimately about what sort of person you are when you die. Your choices make what you are but until you die that can be changed, that is why Michael still asks Nicodemus to give up the coin and start his road to redemption.
The problem with Harry was his let the world burn mentality that got Molly burned. Lasciel's lie robbed him of the chance to repent for that and change himself for the better. Uriel compensated by helping him to do exactly that.
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He probably didn't ask because he's scared of the answer.
If I were Harry, I'd be horrified to learn that I sent the woman I loved to Hell. If that's even a possible answer, I could see him not asking to avoid hearing that kind of truth.
That's my thought. I also agree with your point about not knowing how these things are determined in the DF. I recall something about how Hades gets most of its new souls from the Bloodgate nowadays. I don't recall if that was from Hades himself or a WoJ.
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He could assume, based upon what he learned from Uriel in Ghost Story, at least that she was "somewhere" - but the first question is what happened to her soul when she turned.
Dresden may persecute himself for "murdering Susan Rodriquez" - but he didn't actually do that. If he had, the Bloodline Curse wouldn't have wiped out the Red Court. "Susan" was gone already when he killed the vampire she'd become. So - does the transformation obliterate or otherwise consume a person's soul, or do they get cast out and replaced by the demonic spirit that controls the flesh?
"You ARE a soul. You HAVE a body."
It seems most logical to say that in the case of a vampiric transformation, you lose the body. But, I don't recall what Dresden lore has to say on the subject.
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Actually I think Susan went to Heaven, because in the end she did sacrifice herself for her child.
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Actually I think Susan went to Heaven, because in the end she did sacrifice herself for her child.
That was certainly Michael's interpretation in skin game.
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Actually I think Susan went to Heaven, because in the end she did sacrifice herself for her child.
Not just HER child. I think that's the key factor why Heaven is a given (rather than a possible depending on the rest of what she did in her life).
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Dresden may persecute himself for "murdering Susan Rodriquez" - but he didn't actually do that. If he had, the Bloodline Curse wouldn't have wiped out the Red Court. "Susan" was gone already when he killed the vampire she'd become.
If "Susan was already gone" were true, would a vampire really have laid down on the alter to willingly die as a weapon against all the other vampires? That was pretty clearly still Susan making the choice.
I doubt Uriel could or would have told Harry what happened to her afterward, though. Not being allowed to know for sure seems like another one of the Rules.
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If "Susan was already gone" were true, would a vampire really have laid down on the alter to willingly die as a weapon against all the other vampires? That was pretty clearly still Susan making the choice.
I doubt Uriel could or would have told Harry what happened to her afterward, though. Not being allowed to know for sure seems like another one of the Rules.
She did make a choice. Remember? So did Harry. He knew full well or figured that when he
revealed Martin's treachery, she'd go postal and kill him.. It was still her choice to go postal knowing the consequences if she did kill. When she laid herself down the change wasn't quite
complete, but was when Harry cut her throat.. If it hadn't been the reversal of the generation
spell wouldn't have worked. So she wasn't human when she died, now an exception might have
been made for her. It could be that she works for Uriel or something like that, but he wouldn't tell
Harry because there are other plans for him, plans that are beyond even Uriel's pay grade.
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She did make a choice. Remember? So did Harry. He knew full well or figured that when he
revealed Martin's treachery, she'd go postal and kill him.. It was still her choice to go postal knowing the consequences if she did kill. When she laid herself down the change wasn't quite
complete, but was when Harry cut her throat.. If it hadn't been the reversal of the generation
spell wouldn't have worked. So she wasn't human when she died, now an exception might have
been made for her. It could be that she works for Uriel or something like that, but he wouldn't tell
Harry because there are other plans for him, plans that are beyond even Uriel's pay grade.
That is supposing the vampire looses the soul immediately after transformation but that does not have to be the case. It might take some time to loose it completely. (5 minutes would be enough :-) )
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If you believe in this type of thing then you might want to think that the totality of Susan's life will be what she is judged on, not the last moments. And JB uses this over and over. Where this not true then Thomas would be royally f**ked. And it isn't Harrry's business. He may well feel guilt over his own choices but can't assume agency for her. She was her own person.
He never asked what happened to Susan.
He may be of the mind that it is a little late for that particular question. Your assumption is that it turned out well. Would Harry really want to know if it hadn't. His choice sealed Susan's fate. For good or bad. She will never have the opportunity to add or remove to the totality of her life. All this assuming that the white god doesn't have a summer school with makeup dates for souls on the cusp.
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That is supposing the vampire looses the soul immediately after transformation but that does not have to be the case. It might take some time to loose it completely. (5 minutes would be enough :-) )
The RPG is kind of instructive here. It has mechanics for a character going over the edge from playable PC (i.e., with enough Refresh to have free will) to unplayable (taking so many powers that you are over the refresh limit, such as in the case of turning to a Red Court vampire, or a Changeling Choosing his or her fae side).
Basically, the player can cash in their chips and take on all the applicable powers, and remain playable for the duration of whatever immediate task caused them to take on those powers. Afterward, they're rendered NPCs.
So at least as far as game mechanics are concerned — and they're backed up by things like Susan and Meryl's final scenes — someone who fully turns retains some control over themselves in the first few minutes post-transformation.
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If you believe in this type of thing then you might want to think that the totality of Susan's life will be what she is judged on, not the last moments.
Or following the example of the Thief on the Cross, supposedly he was a bad man all of his
life and deserved to die. He said as much to his fellow criminal who was on the other cross adding that Jesus was innocent unlike them and didn't deserve to die.. Jesus then told him he would join Him in Heaven...
So it is possible that Susan is being judged on her final moments..
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God has to look into hearts. Anybody can ask for forgiveness, but not everybody deserves it. If the thief was forgiven, it was because his repentance on the cross was real. If Susan deserved redemption, god would know it. And why Harry couldn't. However JB's theology is a little warped so, kind of pseudo Christianity. YMMV