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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kbrizzle on November 19, 2018, 02:04:45 AM
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Using the knowledge gleaned in the later books, I re-visited this one to understand what was really going on.
From what I can tell, the Black Council's goal was to waylay Mab's future plans involving Marcone & weaken the Unseelie Accords. However I find the reasons why Nicodemus & Titania want to be involved in this book puzzling.
Why does Nic go along with this plan?
I understand that he feels that he needs to get back at Marcone for the "insult" given to him in Death Masks, & I'm sure having a Signatory to the Accords under his influence are important to him, but are these really enough for him to work with Tessa again, and go to "corporate" for support with the greater circle? We know that Nic hasn't worked with Tessa for nearly 700 years, is this really important enough for that?
I find it hard to believe that the plan to capture Marcone was expressly set up to capture the Archive - I believe this was opportunistic. The Denarians had no way of knowing that (a) Mab would use Harry in this case (likely since it was in Chicago, but Nic/ Anduriel would know that Harry hates Marcone) or (b) Even if Mab involves Harry, that he would reach out to Ivy instead of the White Council to mediate this dispute. Even if Harry doesn't trust the Council, he trusts Ebenezer, Rashid & probably Injun Joe & Luccio as well. Its possible that Nic & Anduriel had been spying on Harry enough to conjecture that he would call on Ivy, but the question becomes, why now? Why not go after Ivy when she was even younger & less able to defend herself?
The only explanation I can come up with is that Nic wants to know if Mab is Nfected, insane or weak. In Skin Game we see that Nic has a cause he is seemingly devoted to (perhaps fighting Nemesis in his own way) - if knows the true purpose of the Winter Court (guard the Gates), and he is hearing on the supernatural grapevine that Mab may be crazy, perhaps he cares enough to invest some real effort in finding this out. I wouldn't be surprised if this is what Tessa used to convince him to join.
Why does Titania oppose Mab in this instance?
From what I can understand, the Summer Court exists to keep the Winter Court in check - i.e. make sure they are not distracted by matters not pertinent to guarding the Gates & in doing so, sparing most of the world from Winter's cruelty. By sending Harry to rescue Marcone, Mab is simply trying to enforce her own Accords, which I'm assuming Summer is also a Signatory of - so why would Titania send the Gruffs to stop Harry from being able to do this?
In the only hint of an explanation we see is in Cold Days where Titania is shown to be ridiculously angry with Harry - she says that without Eldest Gruff's counsel (whom Harry met at the very end of the book), she would not have moved on at all. So perhaps this was her focusing her wrath upon Harry before Eldest Gruff is able to calm her down.
The Black Council's plan is a little easier to fathom -
- Kidnap Marcone - ruin Mab's future plans
- The Black Council/ Maeve learn that Mab has big plans for the newly created Baron of Chicago & use their allies in the Denarians to abduct him, putting extreme effort into bypassing Marcone's security. I would not be surprised if the Denarians' plan was to give the captured Marcone an Nfected coin, or just kill him to remove him from play
- As we see in Skin Game, Mab has plotted for years to find a way to get the weapons in Hades' vault. The way she chooses is to support Marcone's bank for the supernatural, which accomplishes 2 goals - it severely punishes Nic for screwing with the Accords & it gains her entry into Hades' vault so Harry can retrieve the 5 artifacts/ weapons. Marcone is crucial to this plan working.
- Kidnap Marcone - weaken the Unseelie Accords
- The overarching plot of the series so far is that Nemesis is attempting to take over by breaking the supernatural alliances that keep the various powers from fighting each other in self-destructive wars. The way it chooses to do so is by weakening the Unseelie Accords, which were sponsored by the Winter Court - meaning that unless Winter is able to enforce the terms of the Accords, why should anyone obey?
- The seeming inability of Mab to go after the Red Court for violating her own passages is the plot of Proven Guilty - this signals to all the other powers that Mab may not be as strong as she was when the Accords were signed. We see that by White Night even the likes of Lara Raith are testing the Unseelie Accords (Harry points out that Lara had kidnapped a bunch of little folk to deliberately give the Winter Court a minor insult to see what they would do - which is nothing, since Mab has more important things to worry about)
- The Black Council uses its agents in the Denarians to convince them to kidnap Marcone. As I mentioned above, I believe Ivy's involvement was simply a bonus. If Mab is unable to stop 1 Signatory from simply grabbing another, it would signal to the rest of the supernatural world that the Accords were no longer in being adhered to, & with the White Council fighting an expensive war of attrition, everyone was fair play.
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The Denarians did a lot of work to hold Ivy at Demonreach. That couldn't have been done on the fly, it had to take some time wouldn't you think? And if you kill or corrupt the archive the Oblivion War would be lost.
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Personally, I think if Harry had tried to bring in the White Council, Nic would have rejected the idea. Then he could have insisted on a neutral third party, and eventually suggested the Archive if Harry didn't.
I think he worked with Tessa and her crew to find out if she was their "own Judas." And working with her brought him the opportunity to influence or dominate the Archive.
I think a better question about Summer is this: how did they know that Harry was Winter's Emissary several hours before Mab went to him? The Gruffs hit the Carpenter house right away, and it's not till the wee hours of the morning that Harry runs into Mab on the way back from Marcone's blown-up hideout. Not only that, but there wasn't even a breach of the Unseelie Accords until after the first Gruff attack, which seems entirely unprovoked, now that I think about it: Marcone hadn't been taken yet, unless I remember things wrong.
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(b) Even if Mab involves Harry, that he would reach out to Ivy instead of the White Council to mediate this dispute.
The White Council couldn't mediate, Harry is a member. And the only neutral party that Harry is knows of is the archive. Only a signatory nation can lodge the protest. The only two other signatories in town at the time were Marcone and the Denarians. If you don't count Summer.
I think a better question about Summer is this: how did they know that Harry was Winter's Emissary several hours before Mab went to him?
Titania wanted Harry dead But that debt lay at Mab's feet since Harry was acting for Winter. Snatching Marcone was meant to get Mab to do just what she did. Enlist a mortal champion. Being how she was in the middle of a torture session with the current Knight. Who you gonna call? Harry is where he always is, the last to know. Everybody was using somebody. Marcone was Titania, the Archive was Nic. Harry was everybody's chew toy. Titania's appoints Nic her emissary, and has him breech the Accords by snatching Marcone. Mab goes to her Knight in waiting. Harry is now fair game. This starts the shot clock. This suits Nic since it will bring the Archive out of cover to where she can be taken. He brings in everybody because he expects the Archive to be unhappy. Thirteen dead Nickleheads later, he is proven correct.
Harry sending Eldest Gruff to Chicago for a doughnut ran out the shot clock and ended the mayhem. Leaving nobody happy. Eldest Gruff calms down the Summer Queen in time and Mab burns Nick in Skin Game. I don't know that's what went down but it's good enough for me. :) Nic actually got forked twice counting Tessa's early departure.
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My own perspective
1) Nic recruits only the best agents (aka - quality). Recruiting Marcone would be a coup for Nic, although obviously it would be very difficult as the coin must be picked up willingly. Then again, Nic tortured Harry and waved the coin as a way to escape the torture when he tried to recruit Harry. It is possible that Nic was playing the same game with Marcone.
2) Nic clearly wanted Harry involved. He thought Harry was resisting Lasciel and needed another push. Nic clearly wanted Harry to commit to the Fallen side.
3) IF Harry was involved, it is logical that the Archive would also be involved. Harry sticks close to the people he knows and Nic has spent centuries learning how to study his enemies and use their habits against them.
The big question in my mind is the archive. On one hand, corrupting the archive would be a huge coup. Because every archive from that point on would have the memories of a corrupted archive tempting them to also take up a coin. Especially when the archive first passes on, that might be a lot of temptation. It would also give a great deal of power to the fallen. The Archive has information that could accelerate Armageddon tremendously and Nic is clearly playing the Armageddon game.
However, the true purpose of the Archive is as a defense against ancient and dark gods. Compromising that defense would potentially introduce a bunch of competitors to the Armageddon game. I doubt Nic benefits much from somebody else winning the Armageddon game.
My guess is that Nic is playing the odds. Either the attempt will fail and his ex-wife gets a big enemy or it fails when the archive goes insane or it fails and the the dark gods come back. Or it succeeds. I can totally see him seeing that the odds of success are decent and the odds of a really bad outcome failure low. That sounds like a gamble he is willing to make.
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@morriswalters & dspringer
My big issue with the Denarians basing their entire plan on Mab choosing Harry as her emissary, and then Harry choosing the Archive as the arbiter is that so much can wrong. Mab more or less offers Harry an out at the very beginning - if he takes up the mantle of Winter Knight, she will pick another to be her representative in this matter. How does Nic know that Harry will refuse (after all, he takes Mab up a couple of books later) - enough to base a complex plan involving Hell & his wife on this?
Also the Archive is an objectively bad choice for mediator here if you think about it. You essentially have 2 smaller powers fighting each other - the best arbiter would be a larger power with the means to enforce their judgement - there is no way Ivy + Kincaid could take on all the Denarians united. The situation was reversed during the duel between Harry & Ortega, where 2 of the largest powers needed a smaller matter mediated - also Ivy + Kincaid could take on Ortega & his vassals if need it (and they did).
@dspringer
I do think it is significant that both times we see Ivy in person are during the first 2 Denarian-related case files (Death Masks & Small Favor). Her absence in Skin Game is interesting though.
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Also the Archive is an objectively bad choice for mediator here if you think about it. You essentially have 2 smaller powers fighting each other - the best arbiter would be a larger power with the means to enforce their judgement - there is no way Ivy + Kincaid could take on all the Denarians united.
I think the Shedd scene pretty clearly established that they were only able to take her because the pentagram trap and the gas were a cleverly laid trap. Now, it helped Ivy that Harry crippled one of their top sorcerors and delayed Nicodemus sufficiently to keep Anduriel from coming into play against her in his shadow form - but it's hardly fair to say she was a stupid choice because nobody anticipated the Denarians would be able to cut her off from using power freely.
Hell, if she'd thought to bring her zippy ball of mordite to the party, she probably could have slaughtered them all before the gas got to her, even on a limited power budget - it's an extraordinarily energy efficient way to kill. Tessa is the only one with much capability at all to protect herself from being touched by something like that - get a successful sucker punch on her from behind a veil, and the rest are pretty much fish in a barrel. It might even be a mortal danger to Nicodemus, if straight death magic gets around the noose' ability to heal wounds.
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Keep in mind that, hey, if the Archive doesn't show up, Nic still gets his talons in a signatory of the Accords as well as all the relevant power Nic has (probably he'd stop getting his calls answered by Monoc though).
Also, I may be misremembering, but where does the Black Council come in?
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You essentially have 2 smaller powers fighting each other - the best arbiter would be a larger power with the means to enforce their judgement - there is no way Ivy + Kincaid could take on all the Denarians united.
Mab enforces the Accords. The struggle between Duke Ortega and Harry was a duel. And Mab makes Nick pay for for violating her Accords in Skin Game, it apparently was the whole point.
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@Snark Knight
Well think about it this way, when Ortega cheats in the duel in Death Masks, he is able to get away from Martin/ Susan, Harry as well as Ivy & Kincaid trying to attack him. If it weren’t for Ebenezer dropping asteroid Dresden on Ortega’s stronghold in Central America, what could the Archive have realistically done to bring him to justice? Fight the entire Red Court?
When the Denarians have taken Ivy prisoner in SmF, it is the White Council & the Knights who end up saving her, since she is effectively a 2 person organization (albeit extremely powerful). If Harry & Luccio failed, I’m sure the White Council would send other wardens after the Nickelheads.
@morriswalters
My theory is that Nic suspects that Mab is not currently strong enough to enforce the Accords. At the point of SmF, she is operating without a Knight or a Lady (Nfected Maeve); She doesn’t retaliate against the Reds for encroaching on her territory; she doesn’t do anything to Lara Raith for insulting her by imprisoning little folk. So Nic wants to see how far he can stretch it by taking Marcone - my theory is that while the Nickelheads had a suspicion that Harry would call for the Archive, they were prepared to several different outcomes.
By kidnapping Marcone, not only would Nic gain the Signatory of the Accords on his side, as per peregrine’s post, he would also test how strong Mab really is.
@peregrine
Hmm, while the Black Council is not outwardly operating, they have been involved in every book so far (subtly & not so subtly). We know by SmF that one of the Denarians was involved in the attack on Arctis Tor - Thorned Namshiel - as confirmed by Mab after in the book. Tessa’s crew’s suspiciously early departure from the fight at Demonreach have led many (including myself) to suspect that she or someone in her crew is Nfected.
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I think any explanation that involves not aiming for the Archive doesn't explain the Denarians well. Remember, they broke the Rules to such an extent that Uriel got to empower an extra mortal champion (i.e. Harry) with Soulfire - where the Archangels usually have only 3 empowered champions they now have 4.
All that for one extra Denarian human? A capable human, maybe, but at significant risk of damage due to the very process used to get him to take up a coin (i.e. attack him while he's together with his top lieutenants, then torture him).
But getting their hands on all the knowledge of the Archive... to know every word their foes ever write down or wrote down? To know which old forgotten Gods might be brought out to their side (and which absolutely never to release)? That could be worth it.
So I think Nic was in there for the Archive, as his trump card for the coming Apocalypse. He failed, and shifted to the weapons of the Crucifixion (but if he'd gotten the Archive he probably would have aimed for those too). But definitely the Archive was what lured him in.
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@kbrizzle
My theory is that Nic suspects that Mab is not currently strong enough to enforce the Accords. At the point of SmF, she is operating without a Knight or a Lady (Nfected Maeve); She doesn’t retaliate against the Reds for encroaching on her territory; she doesn’t do anything to Lara Raith for insulting her by imprisoning little folk. So Nic wants to see how far he can stretch it by taking Marcone - my theory is that while the Nickelheads had a suspicion that Harry would call for the Archive, they were prepared to several different outcomes.
There is always tomorrow. Mess with Mab today and look over your shoulder forever, or until she's dead. Would seem to be a trifle short sighted of Nic given the events of Skin Game. It most certainly didn't work out well for the Reds either, in the long term.
In any case rereading just a bit, Mab pretty much lays it out. But the kicker is why Eldest Gruff getting the doughnut ends the game. With Marcone free the Accords have been satisfied and Summer no longer has a get out of jail free card for attacking Harry. And it keeps Mab from raining pain down on Nic. I think this hearkens back to Dead Beat. Remember this quote? Upon saving Harry in the alley Gard says, "He didn't," said Gard. "I did." She looked over her shoulder at Marcone and frowned. "This is a mistake. It was his fate to die in that alley."
"What is the point of having free will if one cannot occasionally spit in the eye of destiny?" Marcone asked.
"There will be consequences," she insisted.
What do you think? Coincidence?
However my research did catch something I missed previously. Mab admitted setting the Hobs on the Archive. But she gives her reason, better the Archive dead than the Archive turned. A preemptive strike.
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@kbrizzle
[Crossing Mab] most certainly didn't work out well for [Nic and the Reds], in the long term.
Considering Mab has been in her position since 1066, she is probably the youngest head of the three organizations (Reds, Denarians, and Winter). Therefore, I'd say it didn't work out in the short term from their point of view.
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My theory is that Nic suspects that Mab is not currently strong enough to enforce the Accords.
Mab is a serious player in the supernatural community, but there are many serious players. And there are many individuals (Hades, Mothers, other old hoary gods, archangels) that are significantly more powerful. Nobody plays power games at the level Nic players without taking risks and making enemies. Successful players are good at this type of gambling.
Whatever action Mab does to punish a breaker of the accords must be somewhat comparable to the deed that was done. So at best Nic risks a specific (and painful) disruption of his plans once or twice. Breaking the accords does not make Mab a lifetime enemy after all. They may even ally again in the future as they did in the past.
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Keep in mind that Nic didn't break the accords until he kidnapped the neutral arbiter (i.e. the Archive). He had a two step plan.
1. Take marcone. valuable in his own right and doesn't negatively impact Nic
2. If, and only if, the archive is invoked, then break the accords to get the Archive. This would have been worth it, in his opinion. Keep in mind, he thought he had Lasciel as a hole card corrupting Harry. We now also know that taking the Archive wouldn't just have gotten him all the knowledge of the archive, but also the true ventori who fight the oblivion war at the Archives direction. He would have been able to give them orders they would have believed would be necessary for the oblivion war, but that really could have just served his own ends.
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Keep in mind that Nic didn't break the accords until he kidnapped the neutral arbiter (i.e. the Archive). He had a two step plan.
1. Take marcone. valuable in his own right and doesn't negatively impact Nic
2. If, and only if, the archive is invoked, then break the accords to get the Archive. This would have been worth it, in his opinion. Keep in mind, he thought he had Lasciel as a hole card corrupting Harry. We now also know that taking the Archive wouldn't just have gotten him all the knowledge of the archive, but also the true ventori who fight the oblivion war at the Archives direction. He would have been able to give them orders they would have believed would be necessary for the oblivion war, but that really could have just served his own ends.
He didn't break the Accords, but he already invoked Lucifer thereby breaking the Rules. To me it seems that Nic and Anduriel would find the Rules (eternally bound up in the conflict of Heaven and Hell) much mor important than the Accords (ephemereal product of the current strength of Mab and the other rules-lawyering parts of the supernatural community).
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Breaking those rules has different (and less immediately dangerous) consequences to breaking the accords.
Loosey Goose giving them a supply of Hellfire only lets Mr Sunshine give a supply of Soulfire to someone in response- which is not something that has a great deal of impact on the Denarians really.
Heck the only thing Harry does with it in that book is beat up Namshiel, which had very limited effect all told, seeing as how Nick got the Archive anyway.
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Breaking those rules has different (and less immediately dangerous) consequences to breaking the accords.
Loosey Goose giving them a supply of Hellfire only lets Mr Sunshine give a supply of Soulfire to someone in response- which is not something that has a great deal of impact on the Denarians really.
Heck the only thing Harry does with it in that book is beat up Namshiel, which had very limited effect all told, seeing as how Nick got the Archive anyway.
As Harry and Uriel did indeed discuss, Uriel took a longer view. Nic proved penny-wise pound-foolish in his breach of the Rules. Which is unlike him, given he plays the long game.
So what I suggest is the Archive was always the target. Trading Harry-with-Soulfire for Archive-Denarian is a good long-term deal. Trading Harry-with-Soulfire for Marcone-Denarian is a poor trade.
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But he was not thinking about soulfire Harry, he was still counting on denarian Harry. Nicodemus strategy was based on it and it nearly got him killed.
Correcting autocorrupt,
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Exactly, it's hardly fair to discount Nick not knowing that Harry would do what nobody has ever done before and corrupt the shadow of a fallen angel instead of the other way around.
You need to remember that Nick doesn't really go for a single objective. He's smarter then that. Instead he has a 'main objective', a 'good enough' and a/several 'bonus points'
Nicks plan was to target Marcone because he was vulnerable, but also important enough that he knew Mab would need to respond. So:
In the unlikely even that Mab doesn't get Harry involved in this mess, Nick still gets Marcone (small win, but he'll take it)
In the far more probable event that Harry gets dragged in, Ivy will get pulled along as a Neutral Arbiter and he can grab her (His actual Goal)
And ff possible, he can drag Harry onto his side (His Bonus Goal)
Things only went wrong for him because:
A) He got greedy and overextended when Harry threw Fid on the table.
B) He didn't expect that Harry would have found a way around his safety net by turning Lash on her Creator (and subsequently dying).
To Compare, look at Skin Game:
Nicks 'Small Win' was to grab the Grail (Which he did)
His 'Big Win' was the other Artifacts (Which he missed on)
And his Bonus objectives were Harry Dying and Destroying the Swords.
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As Harry and Uriel did indeed discuss, Uriel took a longer view. Nic proved penny-wise pound-foolish in his breach of the Rules.
Satan, Lucifer himself, proved penny-wise pound-foolish in his breach of the Rules. It was Lucifer who fueled the "Signs" that were used to capture Marcone and Ivy.
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In the unlikely even that Mab doesn't get Harry involved in this mess, Nick still gets Marcone (small win, but he'll take it)
I croaked, “Titania wants Marcone dead?”
“Put simply,” she replied. “And her Emissary will continue to seek your death. Only by finding and saving the Baron’s life will you preserve your own.”
It seems pretty clear. Which is not to say that Nic didn't have his own agenda, but apparently Marcone's destination was a slab. The only reason he didn't die at his safe house was that Summer wanted the time to pot shoot at Harry. And since Marcone has never run up against Titania there only seems to be one possible reason she would want him dead.
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But he was not thinking about soulfire Harry, he was still counting on denarian Harry. Nicodemus strategy was based on it and it nearly got him killed.
Correcting autocorrupt,
Sure, he didn't think specifically 'Uriel will respond by giving Harry something which I cannot counter' but he still gave Uriel the chance to intervene in a major way. I am not sure what equivalents Uriel could have deployed instead to compensate if Harry was still vulnerable to Lash's shadow, but probably quite serious too.
So to go over the below (not sure how multi-quote works here):
In the unlikely even that Mab doesn't get Harry involved in this mess, Nick still gets Marcone (small win, but he'll take it)
In the far more probable event that Harry gets dragged in, Ivy will get pulled along as a Neutral Arbiter and he can grab her (His actual Goal)
And ff possible, he can drag Harry onto his side (His Bonus Goal)
In the unlikely event that Mab doesn't get Harry involved in this mess, Uriel still gets to smack down hard in exchange for at best getting Marcone (high risk low reward).
In the far more probable event, he expects to get Ivy in too (His actual goal, but still risky because Uriel still gets to strike back - high risk, high reward, included Harry bonus goal).
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I disagree with a couple of assumptions in this thread:
- How are we so sure that by giving the Archive a Coin, Nic would be able to subvert the Archive’s nature? The coin would only affect the human Ivy, not the limitations put by the magic of the Archive. Not to mention that the millennia of knowledge & personalities inhabiting the Archive would be able to deal with the Shadow more effectively than Harry. This is why Nemesis is so powerful - it is able to subvert such limitations. Now I suspect that whatever Coin Ivy would have received would be Nfected (unbeknown to Nic)
- How are we so sure that Harry got Soulfire as a result of the attack on Marcone? I’d always read it as Harry got Soulfire for successfully refusing Lash’s offer for 3-4 years - it was a reward for not Falling to temptation.
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Uriel can not just hand out rewards l, that would be against the rules. The opposition breaking the rules made it possible for Uriel to do something compensating. Resisting Lasciel made Harry a proper target for Uriels action.
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Also the Archive is an objectively bad choice for mediator here if you think about it. You essentially have 2 smaller powers fighting each other - the best arbiter would be a larger power with the means to enforce their judgement - there is no way Ivy + Kincaid could take on all the Denarians united. The situation was reversed during the duel between Harry & Ortega, where 2 of the largest powers needed a smaller matter mediated - also Ivy + Kincaid could take on Ortega & his vassals if need it (and they did).
I think you are misunderstanding the role of the arbiter. Their role is to be a neutral party to resolve the issue of the accords. They must be a significant power (as they are a member of the accords) and presumably neutral in the specific conflict. The arbiter would certainly act to enforce the rules of the duel, but is not some supernatural police force. Their role is primarily to witness the duel, make a good faith effort to enforce the rules of the duel -- and (a clearly lesser priority) punish any who break the rules. The threat she made at the beginning with the mordite was to discourage rule breaking, not eliminate the possibility.
Once Ortega got away, she communicated to the accord members the results of the duel, including Ortega's breaking of the rules. It is up to the accord members to enforce the rules - which Ebenezer did by killing Ortega. The Archive's role was not complete.
Not if she feels Ortega's actions shamed her in some way, the archive might choose to get revenge. But revenge (or justice) is not a expected duty of the mediator.
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How are we so sure that Harry got Soulfire as a result of the attack on Marcone? I’d always read it as Harry got Soulfire for successfully refusing Lash’s offer for 3-4 years - it was a reward for not Falling to temptation.
I was talking about this with my brother. My guess is that Harry has access to soulfire because he had access to hellfire. As Bob says, soulfire and hellfire are essentially the same thing. (Chapter 46). Harry just didn't know he had access to it. Uriel "nudged" Harry, showing him he had access to soulfire.
Small Favor, Chapter 30, Harry describing what happened to him that resulted in the use of soulfire:It felt something like that-A tiny but critically timed nudge just as I threw my will into a last futile effort of defiance."
We do know that Uriel did something with Harry to allow him to use soulfire, and that it was likely because in reaction to what Lucifer did. Conversation with "Jake" in Chapter 46:"You gotta think that maybe there's a matter of balance, here," [Jake] said. "Maybe one archangel invested his strength in this situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand."
My right hand erupted into pins and needles again.
We also know that it had something to do with resisting Lash. About five of paragraphs later:"'The burned hand teaches best,'" I read aloud. ... "What the hell is that supposed to mean?"
[Mab via Grimalkin]: "That your experience with resisting the shadow of the Fallen One has garnered the respect of the Watchman, my Emissary."
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So, correct me if I'm wrong but itnt mentioned in passing that Lucifer himself worked on some of MARCONI more complex bindings? Not that I think that Lucifer or the White God will be on screen players til the BAT, but it is worth noting.
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Keep in mind, there may have been fall back plans in case abducting Marcone failed to get Harry involved that just never got realized because Harry fell for plan 1. Heck after converting Marcone, if Harry still wasn't involved Marcone (or Nick) could have just directly challenged Harry to a duel like Ortega did and necessitate an arbiter again to draw in the Archive. And then probably a fall back plan if that doesn't work. I mean, you do not work to get literally every Denarian in the world together in one place and cooperating and then go, "whoops, I guess that didn't work, everyone go home, chaos cancelled." Something big was going to happen no matter what Harry did.
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So, correct me if I'm wrong but itnt mentioned in passing that Lucifer himself worked on some of MARCONI more complex bindings? Not that I think that Lucifer or the White God will be on screen players til the BAT, but it is worth noting.
Lucifer powered both of the "Signs." One that trapped Marcone and one that trapped Ivy.
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Keep in mind, there may have been fall back plans in case abducting Marcone failed to get Harry involved that just never got realized because Harry fell for plan 1. Heck after converting Marcone, if Harry still wasn't involved Marcone (or Nick) could have just directly challenged Harry to a duel like Ortega did and necessitate an arbiter again to draw in the Archive. And then probably a fall back plan if that doesn't work. I mean, you do not work to get literally every Denarian in the world together in one place and cooperating and then go, "whoops, I guess that didn't work, everyone go home, chaos cancelled." Something big was going to happen no matter what Harry did.
However Harry knew full well what Nic's plan was to begin with.. 1] Break a Holy Sword.. Harry
was willing to risk it because saving Ivy was more important to him, and he had a good back up crew. 2] To complete the takeover of Harry by Lasciel... What Nic didn't know was Harry had transferred the Shadow into Lash, and that she had already sacrificed herself for him and was gone..
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I don't think you can force someone to be an arbiter. Ivy could just refuse if Nic challenged Harry.
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Titania wanted Harry dead But that debt lay at Mab's feet since Harry was acting for Winter. Snatching Marcone was meant to get Mab to do just what she did. Enlist a mortal champion. Being how she was in the middle of a torture session with the current Knight. Who you gonna call? Harry is where he always is, the last to know.
Yes, but I thought that happened after the Gruff's first attempt to kill Harry. You see the problem. Titania went after Harry before the domino's you describe, started to fall. Even if Titania knew Marcone was going to be kidnapped and reasoned that Mab would enlist Harry as her emissary; that is not countering Winter, that's being proactive. There's something else going on here.
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@morriswalters & KurtinStGeorge
One of my WAGs in the PG thread is that the reason Winter sends all their spare troops to the Summer border instead of attacking the Ramps for trespassing on their territory is that the Nfected Maeve convinced Mab that Lily was the one who was Nfected (probably saying that Nemesis fled from Aurora into her after the former’s death). As a result, Mab starts preparing Molly to become the new Summer Lady (throwaway line at the end of CD about Mher considering Molly a better candidate for Summer).
Perhaps Titania got wind of Mab’s dislike for Lily, and knowing how the Sidhe love symmetry, figured that Harry would be put on the job to remove Lily. As a result, she tries to attack him when justifiable - even if it is proactive perhaps.
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Or maybe Summer is more pro-active than it likes to come across. Who do we have that say Summer is reactive to Winter? Fix, Mother Summer, Lily.
I wonder if any of those have an interest in convincing Harry that Summer is the good guys?
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Just because harry didn't have any idea of what was going on doesn't mean anything. That's SOP for Harry. Harry owes Mab. If I read JB's setup correctly, as long as that debt existed, anything that put the Queens in contention makes Harry fair game. Poor Harry.
Mab not warning Harry is just part of Mab's ongoing effort to get Harry trained up. Else she could have reached him prior to the first attack. She only warns him about Summer after she mind f**ks him and removes his memory of fire magic. Oh yeah, and it adds an element of coercion to her offer for him to act for her. His only out to stop the attacks was to fix Mab's problem.
@kbrizzle
Mab says that she had some other purpose for Molly in mind. It wouldn't be within her purview to select the successor to the Summer Lady. So I took it to mean something else.