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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: a3dfiend on October 10, 2018, 11:18:27 PM
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I was listening to Even Hand the other day, and the bit about getting a special bullet to scribe the rune to kill Mag(or Dresden) got me thinking that it would be a great opportunity for Marcone to drag the lake for the bullet used to kill Dresden the 1st time. The "men of his caliber" line is a bad pun I think, but still. What better ammunition to kill Dresden than the same freaking bullet used again? Just an observation, nothing new here...
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Washed out of blood by now, if they could even find it. They can't find dead bodies there, I hardly think they'll be able to find a bullet.
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Nor did it kill Dresden, evidenced by the two books after Changes. A head shot would have been certain, since a Wizard without a brain is a crippling handicap.
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Nor did it kill Dresden, evidenced by the two books after Changes. A head shot would have been certain, since a Wizard without a brain is a crippling handicap.
And yet, Harry manages nonetheless 8)
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Didn't the bullet hit the boat? I thought Harry heard the crack of the round hitting the wood... It could be lodged there.
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Good memory, Groinkick, had to be a through the body shot.
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Yes, it went through Dresden, through the boat, and right out of the boat again to fall in the lake. It was explained in Aftermath.
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Nor did it kill Dresden, evidenced by the two books after Changes. A head shot would have been certain, since a Wizard without a brain is a crippling handicap.
But it did.
Just because he came back doesn't mean he didn't die.
Particularly not in a universe with Magic, Souls, Ghosts, and multiple afterlives
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Murphy and the police couldnt find it, but that doesnt mean he couldnt get supernatural help to do so. Just like Mab found his Amulet. I was just saying that it could be possible, not likely. And I dont think it has to do with his blood being on it either. I think it is just a connection or significance with how influential the person it happened to kill was. And even Odin told Dresden that he had been dead and came back again. I think if Jim wanted to use it as a device the logic would hold up, however, if he did it might protect Dresden in the end just because it was his own killing bullet...
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If anyone found it, it probably was Mab.
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If anyone found it, it probably was Mab.
Agreed. She might even have an use for such an item.
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But it did.
Just because he came back doesn't mean he didn't die.
Particularly not in a universe with Magic, Souls, Ghosts, and multiple afterlives
Neither does that mean he did. JB has played with the idea about the fluidity of the line between death and life throughout the series. Even Harry isn't sure. And I'm swiftly moving to the position of everyone in the book being an unreliable narrator.
A head shot would have removed all doubt. Picture Harry, as Scare Crow singing, "If I only had a Brain". ;)
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Neither does that mean he did. JB has played with the idea about the fluidity of the line between death and life throughout the series. Even Harry isn't sure. And I'm swiftly moving to the position of everyone in the book being an unreliable narrator.
A head shot would have removed all doubt. Picture Harry, as Scare Crow singing, "If I only had a Brain". ;)
Harry fell into ice cold water, in Mab's arms yet... The ice cold water is what contributed to his living, slowed down his body functions enough to keep him from bleeding out... A head shot isn't a sure thing either, depends on the pathway and the caliber of the bullet.. Near freezing water could have saved him there too, unless of course his brains were completely blown out.
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Neither does that mean he did. JB has played with the idea about the fluidity of the line between death and life throughout the series. Even Harry isn't sure. And I'm swiftly moving to the position of everyone in the book being an unreliable narrator.
A head shot would have removed all doubt. Picture Harry, as Scare Crow singing, "If I only had a Brain". ;)
Considering that Bob, Vadderung, Lea, Mab, and Uriel say he did, I'd say he did. Remember Dead=/=Gone in the Dresdenverse. Of course you've already admitted that you're on the "Literally everything anyone says to Harry is a lie" train, so I guess there's no point in discussing this further.
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An argument in one quote.
And Mab again in Ghost Story
"Death is a spectrum, not a line. And you my knight, had not yet vanished into the utter darkness."
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Sounds like a confirmation to me "Death is a spectrum, not a line" ie: You were dead, but dead doesn't work how you thought so you could come back.
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I agree that, in the Dresdenverse, Death is a spectrum. Curious question, what would represent the polar ends? As in, what is most alive and what is most dead?
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Sounds like a confirmation to me "Death is a spectrum, not a line" ie: You were dead, but dead doesn't work how you thought so you could come back.
The way I understood that quote was that "We all lie somewhere on the spectrum of death. Dresden came close to the end, but not close enough that Mab couldn't bring him back to the norm." i.e: He didn't really die.
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There is no internally consistent answer to that in the Dresdenverse. Other than to say that your dead when JB says you are. JB is selling the idea that what makes you, you, is separate from the body. So are we talking about the death of the body or the death of the soul?
For Harry, obviously his body didn't decompose, which is an indicator that it didn't die. And in point of fact it was healed. That is, he no longer has a chest wound, when he awakes in the well. And if you believe the timeline he didn't leave his body until it was healed. How much time elapsed before he woke in Chicago over Chicago?
I'll grant you that is a long time to heal, but JB needed that time. It might have been more fun if JB had played with an alternate timeline where Harry's death was final. Kinda like Scrooges ghost.
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His soul separated from his body. His body would have decomposed if three extremely powerful supernatural forces hadn't kept it alive in only the most technical, purely mechanical sense.
He was shot and his body stopped functioning. He lost the ability to continue functioning. His heart stopped. He had no brain activity, otherwise he wouldn't have needed Mab, Demonreach and Bonnie to do it manually for him.
He was dead. His soul just didn't move on yet and definitely could have if he'd wanted to.
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He was dead. His soul just didn't move on yet and definitely could have if he'd wanted to.
Where was his soul during the six months?
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Where was his soul during the six months?
Who knows and, well, what does it matter? Time gets screwy in the Nevernever, so it probably goes screwy in the places between life and the afterlives.
The books and several characters in the know say he was dead. His body ceased to function and his soul wasn't in it.
That's basically the definition of dead.
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Who knows and, well, what does it matter? Time gets screwy in the Nevernever, so it probably goes screwy in the places between life and the afterlives.
The books and several characters in the know say he was dead. His body ceased to function and his soul wasn't in it.
That's basically the definition of dead.
I got the impression he was in a coma, but so deep in a coma it was almost death. I mean in real life people "die", and are brought back. Sometimes for extended periods of time. What Mab and the others did was the same as what humans do, albeit at a more advanced level. Didn't Mab say if he'd gone completely even she couldn't have gotten him back? He might have died shortly, but I think that for the 6 months he was comatose. They kept him alive enough for his wizard healing to take over. There is also the Uriel thing going on. We saw what Harry did directly, but there may have been more subtle things going on that we won't realize until future books.
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Who knows and, well, what does it matter? Time gets screwy in the Nevernever, so it probably goes screwy in the places between life and the afterlives.
The books and several characters in the know say he was dead. His body ceased to function and his soul wasn't in it.
That's basically the definition of dead.
Mab in Ghost Story"Long have this old thing and I have labored to keep your form alive, my knight," Mab said. "Long have we kept flesh and bone knit together and stirring, waiting for your spirits return."
Harry in Ghost Story"I think you don't have the time or the energy to spare to fight your own knight. I think you need me, or you wouldn't have gone through all the trouble of keeping me alive for this long, of taxing your strength this much to get it done."
Vadderung in Cold Days"Well, well, well," he said. "Rumors of your death, et cetera."
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I got the impression he was in a coma, but so deep in a coma it was almost death. I mean in real life people "die", and are brought back. Sometimes for extended periods of time. What Mab and the others did was the same as what humans do, albeit at a more advanced level. Didn't Mab say if he'd gone completely even she couldn't have gotten him back? He might have died shortly, but I think that for the 6 months he was comatose. They kept him alive enough for his wizard healing to take over. There is also the Uriel thing going on. We saw what Harry did directly, but there may have been more subtle things going on that we won't realize until future books.
Also we had both Bob and Mort saying that Harry was in danger because he really wasn't a ghost, as in what is left behind when someone is ALL dead.
Mab
Quote
And Mab again in Ghost Story
"Death is a spectrum, not a line. And you my knight, had not yet vanished into the utter darkness."
Last part of that line being the most important.... Harry had not yet vanished.. Meaning
he may have been mostly dead, but not all dead....
To quote Miracle Max, paraphrasing, all dead verses mostly dead... " mostly dead means slightly alive, now with all dead there is nothing left to do but go through his pockets and look for loose change."
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Nice quote. I like it.
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I agree, yet forumghost rightly could cite this.
Vadderung to Dresden in Cold Days"Wizard...you have been dead and returned. It has marked you."
And why I mark everyone as unreliable narrators. A thing which I believe that JB has done purposely. He's all over the place.
A couple of questions. If Maeve and Sarissa were Mab's daughters, who was the father? And if they were in fact her children could there be another little Harry or Harrietta crawling around somewhere at Arctis Tor?
Is Gatekeeper the first mortal Gatekeeper? And if he is, is Mac a fey and perhaps the previous Watcher at the gate. Which would make him who? If I can believe what I've read, the gate might predate wizardry.
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Maeve and Sarissa's dad was a composer in the 1600s or so, give or take. Austrian I think.
As for Mab getting a baby off of Harry, I doubt it, just because Jim's gone to that well once already.
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TBH this is probably the most important one:
"Told me . . . I was dead," I muttered.
"Dead is a grey word," Mab hissed. "Mortals fear it, and so they wish it to be black—and they have but few words to contain its reality. It escapes from such constraints. Death is a spectrum, not a line. And you, my knight, had not yet vanished into the utter darkness."
Everyone else that's quoted this line here seems to have missed the most relevant half of it. People are too determined that "He came back, so he wasn't really dead". They're doing exactly what Mab says here- trying to turn Death into a yes/no question rather then a gradient.
Harry was dead enough to be considered dead by gods, and spirits. Dead enough that his Soul was gone from his body and he only came back because multiple powerful entities were manually pumping his lungs and heart for 6 months. Dead enough that he very nearly caught the South Bound Train at the start of the Story. Dead enough that Mr Sunshine was able to offer him a Job in Ghost Chicago.
He was very dead. Just apparently not dead enough. Not unlike the Corpsetaker (Well, she didn't have anyone preserving her Body for her, so she was probably one or two shades more dead then Harry).
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Everyone else that's quoted this line here seems to have missed the most relevant half of it. People are too determined that "He came back, so he wasn't really dead". They're doing exactly what Mab says here- trying to turn Death into a yes/no question rather then a gradient.
No, more Miracle Max.... Even Mab says beyond a certain point there is no coming back.. Harry never reached that point on the spectrum, close, but no cigar.. He was only mostly dead, but slightly alive, it is perfectly right to say he came back from the dead, but it is also right to say he was never all dead.
The plainest evidence that Harry was never totally dead and gone is what is explained to him when he wakes up, Mab explains how she, Alfred, and the parasite kept his body functions going while his soul did it's walk about... This means his body was alive, perhaps close to the threshold that one doesn't return from, but alive.. If he was all dead, all Mab could do was bury the body..
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I mean Corpsetaker though. She was all dead (bullet to the back of the Skull) but she wasn't dead enough that she couldn't come back from it.
Death is really fuzzy in the Dresdenverse. The way I see it, Harry was dead alright... but as Bob put it, Dead=/=Gone.
Basically, Miracle Max has it wrong here. Mostly Dead? Easy Fix. All dead? Harder, but still doable. Very dead? Getting tricky but sure. Super Dead? Kiiiinnda pushing the boundary here. DED Dead? Okay yeah, now there's nothing left to do but go through their pockets for change.
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Kind of dead isn't really a meaningful statement. Neither is almost dead, or dead enough to fool gods and whoever else. And had JB not wanted this confusion he should have picked another mythology other than the Christian one. Christian(Catholic) mythology would say that (assisted) suicide is a mortal sin and condemns the soul to hell. And thus, I assume, the imbalance that Urial was addressing.
While the point at which you die finally die isn't clear, there is a point where you are dead. Which is what Mab's quote is about. JB is channeling biologists. Maeve and Sarissa's dad was a composer in the 1600s or so, give or take. Austrian I think.
As for Mab getting a baby off of Harry, I doubt it, just because Jim's gone to that well once already.
Twice. And do you have a citation for the Austrian? The WOJ database defies my search capabilities.
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Maeve and Sarissa's dad was a composer in the 1600s or so, give or take. Austrian I think.
As for Mab getting a baby off of Harry, I doubt it, just because Jim's gone to that well once already.
Also, consider Mab's state at the end of Ghost Story -- she's decrepit and emaciated from spending the previous months keeping Harry's body alive. While there may well be significant differences between Faerie and Human physiology, it seems to me that she couldn't have been carrying a child and using up all her strength and wasting away saving Harry at the same time.
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Also, consider Mab's state at the end of Ghost Story -- she's decrepit and emaciated from spending the previous months keeping Harry's body alive. While there may well be significant differences between Faerie and Human physiology, it seems to me that she couldn't have been carrying a child and using up all her strength and wasting away saving Harry at the same time.
Makes me wonder if during this time of weakness it allowed enemies to move about, gaining ground.
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Makes me wonder if during this time of weakness it allowed enemies to move about, gaining ground.
Probably! After all, she wasn't attending to her normal duties, and while she does have Lea, she may not have been able to cover all her bases.
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I mean Corpsetaker though. She was all dead (bullet to the back of the Skull) but she wasn't dead enough that she couldn't come back from it.
Death is really fuzzy in the Dresdenverse. The way I see it, Harry was dead alright... but as Bob put it, Dead=/=Gone.
Basically, Miracle Max has it wrong here. Mostly Dead? Easy Fix. All dead? Harder, but still doable. Very dead? Getting tricky but sure. Super Dead? Kiiiinnda pushing the boundary here. DED Dead? Okay yeah, now there's nothing left to do but go through their pockets for change.
No, it is the spectrum that Mab spoke of.. Harry was in a very deep coma, without Team Mab keeping his vitals going he soon expire or pass over that horizon that no one returns...
I disagree about what Miracle Max said, if Harry had been completely dead when he fell into her arms, Mab would have simply let him go or buried him... You are also leaving out the bit that both Mort and Bob said, Harry was in danger because he wasn't really a ghost, as in what is left behind after one dies and is, all dead...
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Harry didn't buy a house in Deadville; but, he was definitely renting an apartment.
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Harry didn't buy a house in Deadville; but, he was definitely renting an apartment.
More importantly, he had the option of moving there indefinitely (Uriel's Job offer). If you're dead enough to have an option of permanent residency in a Literal Ghost Town, you're dead enough to be labelled as "Dead" IMHO.
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Harry didn't buy a house in Deadville; but, he was definitely renting an apartment.
:)
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More importantly, he had the option of moving there indefinitely (Uriel's Job offer). If you're dead enough to have an option of permanent residency in a Literal Ghost Town, you're dead enough to be labelled as "Dead" IMHO.
Uriel also said that Harry wasn't a ghost... When Uriel gave Harry the job offer it was part of a choice don't think truly dead get a choice of jobs.. Then he sent Harry back..
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At the risk of confusing the discussion...
Uriel also said Harry IS a soul and HAS a body. As such whether or not his body was alive might not be so critical; his soul was certainly was acting like it had no body anymore. But his Soul had not vanished into the utter dark, so in that sense his Soul wasn't dead yet.
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At the risk of confusing the discussion...
Uriel also said Harry IS a soul and HAS a body. As such whether or not his body was alive might not be so critical; his soul was certainly was acting like it had no body anymore. But his Soul had not vanished into the utter dark, so in that sense his Soul wasn't dead yet.
The soul doesn't die, it moves on from the mortal realm or is destroyed by a person's choices.
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The soul doesn't die, it moves on from the mortal realm or is destroyed by a person's choices.
If the soul moves on, I'd call that death.