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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: CallSmith on August 08, 2018, 04:24:33 PM

Title: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: CallSmith on August 08, 2018, 04:24:33 PM
I've not doubt this topic has already been covered in pretty great detail somewhere, (seeing as the book came out eleven years ago) but on a binge reading through the series I noticed a plot hole between Proven Guilty and White Night.

In Proven Guilty, when Dresden is in an elevator with Murphy and she asks him how many kids he wants he thinks about how any kids he would have would inherit all kinds of problems through him. The way he discusses it could be taken as either meaning just his enemies, or it could mean his magic and his enemies, or some variation thereof. It's not explicitly stated that his children would not have magic.

In White Night when Harry is explaining magical inheritance to Murphy (In the Blue Beetle on the way to kill the Skavis, after nearly melting Molly's face off.) Murphy says that Harry said that magic is inherited, Harry says "Salic Law" to suggest matrilineal (Forum isn't recognizing this as a word, I know Harry says he's chauvinistic but that's a bit much lol) descent. He uses his inheriting his magic from his mother as an example, and looks at Molly to imply to remind the reader that Molly inherited hers from Charity. It is also a driving point of the villains' plan that killing off twenty+ weak practitioners would cripple magical growth in the Post-War world. Something that everyone's actions suggest would eventually be true.

Now I have not read past White Night, but I have an addiction to TvTropes that has spoiled some things for me so don't feel bad to show me how this gets fixed later if it does, but i feel like this is a pretty big plot hole in Harry's understanding of magic, which could be explained by that if he wasn't using logic a lot in this book.

The Plot hole is as follows

1.) Harry doesn't seem to have the consideration that any children he had with Murphy or Susan, or any other normal mortal would be a normal mortal.
2.) The White Council is an egalitarian organization that has had such connections throughout the world for at least 5 millennia (Judging from the Wiki's page on the Oblivion War.)
2a.) This includes a probably equal period of time interacting with the Sidhe Courts who are led by females of incredible power
2b.) That the Council is egalitarian and inclusive can be judged from the composition of the Senior Council at the time of Summer Night a Chinese Woman, a Middle-Eastern man, an African-American woman, a Great Lakes Native American man, a Russian of non-specified background man, and a French man who is said to speak for the minor nations and is later replaced by a Greek Man speaking for the same nations.
2c.) Just of the people on the Senior Council we have 3 different people that are part of or related to cultures that have practiced matrilineal or matrilocal social systems (Great Lakes Native Americans, Several minorities in China, and Greek)
3.) Despite magic apparently being passed from mother to child, and magic users having connections across the globe, and through realms for thousands of years the Senior Council at first appearance looks very much like one would expect given who created it, when it was created, and where it was a created. (Clarification it looks like a white male American created a 'diverse' ruling body. Since I am also all of those things I'm not critiquing it just pointing it out.)
4.) So despite magic apparently being passed through the mother, and it being common knowledge that this is so, the Council can't seem to keep track of young wizards who keep becoming warlocks because no one is there to teach them.
5.) Thomas can't use magic, maybe it's canceled out by WC Demon but it seems like something that should be explored. (Maybe the wizard whose talent was all things genealogy geek got taken out early because Outsiders.)
6.) Despite taking a pretty big ravaging in the past century, and apparently knowing for a long time that magic is passed through mother to child, the Senior Council and the White Council behave primarily like our modern American society does, white man is in charge, men are more common than women in power, but there is some movement to diversify and chauvinistic tendencies are going away.
7.) Despite transitioning from this patriarchal system, while losing a lot of population, there's no "Female magic users have a DUTY to have a ton of magic using kids" movement that we see.

I'm in no way criticizing Mr. Butcher or anything here. I'm just a guy, with a degree who really likes these books and enjoys over thinking and analyzing them if anyone else wants to join in.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Mr. Death on August 08, 2018, 04:41:52 PM
The thing is, there's already way too many wizard kids for the White Council to handle. They're not going to have some conceive-a-thon to make more when half the ones that are already out there end up at the wrong end of a Warden's sword because the Council couldn't get to them on time.

In White Night, the idea wasn't that killing 20-ish practitioners would cripple the magical world. It was that the actions in Chicago were a proof of concept that they could get away with it on a world-wide scale.

Magic being passed on through the mother is a tendency, not a hard and fast rule. Nowhere is it stated that a wizard mother will always have a wizard kid, nor is it stated that a wizard can only come from a magically talented mother.

(click to show/hide)
Sometimes it might skip a generation, or a parent with a small talent has a kid with a big talent (see AAAA Wizardry, where a woman who's a sensitive and nothing else has a daughter with a much stronger gift).

Sometimes it just happens out of nowhere.

Thomas can, in fact use magic -- he works up a tracking spell in "Backup" -- he just doesn't have the same kind of talent that Harry does.

This has been discussed before. Word of Jim has suggested that Molly has a talent while Daniel does not because Charity still had some of her magic while she was pregnant with the former, while it had faded almost entirely when she was carrying the latter.

The closest we've ever come to a real conclusion is the idea that it's not so much whether the mother is a wizard as it's whether she has exposure to magic while pregnant.

And, again, sometime it just happens.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Arjan on August 08, 2018, 05:40:10 PM
Thomas can use magic as shown in the short story Backup, he just is not as good as Harry and did not spend much effort training.

He can do a tracking spell though.

Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: wardenferry419 on August 08, 2018, 10:52:09 PM
Magic seems to be part genetics and part skill. People with the genetic tendency may chose to develop the skill part or not.
As for the diversity aspects, I am not touching that one. Mainly because I am a white male as well.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: morriswalters on August 09, 2018, 02:21:39 AM
Jim Butcher has a degree in English.  Not genetics.  The book isn't even close to being a model of the real world.  And he gives as many straight answers as do the Faries.

If the Dresdenverse reflects the real world, and given that we have basically bred ourselves to 7.5 billion in a little over a hundred years, the WC doesn't need to encourage anyone to breed.  There are certainly millions of little as yet discovered wizards, even assuming that the wizards are just the smallest percentage of the total population on Planet Dresden.

Sounds really cool until you run the numbers.  Kind of like the stain caused by Black Magic.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Mira on August 09, 2018, 02:35:50 PM
Thomas can use magic as shown in the short story Backup, he just is not as good as Harry and did not spend much effort training.

He can do a tracking spell though.

  Thomas can, but the magic he did employ didn't go too far beyond what most vanilla humans can do.. Butters under Harry's direction achieved pretty much the same in Dead Beat... However a little talent can go a long way if one chooses the dark path as we saw in Storm Front with Victor eventually becoming a sorcerer...
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Arjan on August 09, 2018, 02:43:58 PM
  Thomas can, but the magic he did employ didn't go too far beyond what most vanilla humans can do.. Butters under Harry's direction achieved pretty much the same in Dead Beat... However a little talent can go a long way if one chooses the dark path as we saw in Storm Front with Victor eventually becoming a sorcerer...
Thomas managed a fairly complicated tracking spell under tutelage of Bob but with his own power. It was a tracking spell more complicated than his own tracking spell. Butters only did a circle. The other things he did were not just done by Bob but also powered by Bob.

Thomas definitely inherited some of his mothers talent, he just didn't do that much with it.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Mira on August 09, 2018, 07:03:04 PM
Thomas managed a fairly complicated tracking spell under tutelage of Bob but with his own power. It was a tracking spell more complicated than his own tracking spell. Butters only did a circle. The other things he did were not just done by Bob but also powered by Bob.

Thomas definitely inherited some of his mothers talent, he just didn't do that much with it.

I seem to remember Thomas saying that a tracking spell isn't that difficult... 
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Arjan on August 09, 2018, 07:10:46 PM
I seem to remember Thomas saying that a tracking spell isn't that difficult...
It is a real spell not like a circle. His simple tracking spell did not work so Bob explained a more complicated one.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Snark Knight on August 12, 2018, 06:42:03 PM
(click to show/hide)
Sometimes it might skip a generation, or a parent with a small talent has a kid with a big talent (see AAAA Wizardry, where a woman who's a sensitive and nothing else has a daughter with a much stronger gift).

I think Maggie Sr. inheriting her magic from her father's side was even lampshaded in the book as an example that there are exceptions the the usual matrilineal inheritance.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Paviel on August 12, 2018, 07:07:53 PM
I think Maggie Sr. inheriting her magic from her father's side was even lampshaded in the book as an example that there are exceptions the the usual matrilineal inheritance.

If so, I would appreciate a quote from the books to that effect. I've been looking for one.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on August 12, 2018, 07:25:00 PM
If so, I would appreciate a quote from the books to that effect. I've been looking for one.
It's the controversy of the Woj Harry's grandma was mortal, and basically had nothing else worth noting on her. But idk man, a lot of things are mortal that are not normal... are wizards not mortal? Is Thomas not mortal enough to Mab? Mmmm...
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: morriswalters on August 12, 2018, 11:02:04 PM
Quote from: White Knight
"Salic law," I said. "Mostly through female lines. I got it from my mom."

Edit
Mostly means mostly.  And if Salic laws have anything to do with genetics I wish someone would give me a link.  Otherwise I see it as a male conspiracy to deprive women of the throne.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Paviel on August 12, 2018, 11:23:23 PM
White Knight? There is no such novel.

Do you perhaps means Summer Knight, or White Night?
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Dina on August 13, 2018, 01:05:00 AM
I don't understand what the OP is saying about the salic law, as this is not based on genetics (but in patriarchy!), but we know that magic is not a simple genetic trait. Environment plays an important part. I would add the biological concepts of penetrance and expressivity. You can search if you want but basically means that genotypes are not all what it is.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: morriswalters on August 13, 2018, 01:17:13 AM
 :-[ White Night, Chapter 30.
I don't understand what the OP is saying about the salic law, as this is not based on genetics (but in patriarchy!), but we know that magic is not a simple genetic trait. Environment plays an important part. I would add the biological concepts of penetrance and expressivity. You can search if you want but basically means that genotypes are not all what it is.
Unless you are a fiction author I don't know that I would make any statements about genetics as it relates to magic.  And if you were a fiction writer you should perhaps do more due diligence when using the term  Salic law.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Mr. Death on August 13, 2018, 01:23:45 AM
Edit
Mostly means mostly.  And if Salic laws have anything to do with genetics I wish someone would give me a link.  Otherwise I see it as a male conspiracy to deprive women of the throne.
I have no idea how it's a "male conspiracy to deprive women of the throne."

I think you're reading into this more sinister motives than is warranted.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Dina on August 13, 2018, 01:55:58 AM
I have no idea how it's a "male conspiracy to deprive women of the throne."

I think you're reading into this more sinister motives than is warranted.
Really? Not allowing a woman to be the ruler if she has a brother is not a conspiracy to deprive women of the throne? What could be clearer?
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Mr. Death on August 13, 2018, 02:44:58 AM
Really? Not allowing a woman to be the ruler if she has a brother is not a conspiracy to deprive women of the throne? What could be clearer?
I meant in the context of The Dresden Files. That doesn't seem to be how the term is applied in the novels.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Dina on August 13, 2018, 02:48:14 AM
Edit
Mostly means mostly.  And if Salic laws have anything to do with genetics I wish someone would give me a link.  Otherwise I see it as a male conspiracy to deprive women of the throne.
I think Morriswalters meant in general.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: morriswalters on August 13, 2018, 03:42:21 AM
I meant in the context of The Dresden Files. That doesn't seem to be how the term is applied in the novels.
I knew what he meant. Only in this context would I draw my dictionary from its scabbard. ;)
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on August 13, 2018, 05:28:25 AM
He also uses it do describe wereguild, blood money. So his usage is not linear too...
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: peregrine on August 14, 2018, 02:53:22 AM
I think Maggie Sr. inheriting her magic from her father's side was even lampshaded in the book as an example that there are exceptions the the usual matrilineal inheritance.
If it's about in utero magic exposure, even a purely mortal mother who spends a lot of time around a very powerful wizard would probably be enough to do it.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Avernite on August 14, 2018, 07:30:54 PM
He also uses it do describe wereguild, blood money. So his usage is not linear too...
That is because Salic Law has become famous because of the French throne (where the term Salic Law was used to refer to the fact that no land of the Salian Franks should be inherited by a woman, and hence, that the English king had no right to the French throne). But Salic Law in general is a broader concept, referring to the whole law of those Salian Franks.

Mind, I still don't know how Jim Butcher meant that law to refer to female-derived inheritance (even if weregild is perfectly logical), since it was primarily just generic relational, with a small male preference for property and a massive male preference for land.

An interesting factoid that I found on the avalon project is that it includes punishments short of death for nearly all cases; rape of a free woman in general, or being unable to cough up weregild for murder yourself or among your relatives, are a death sentence (and a handful if x, then y, then z cases).
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Kindler on August 30, 2018, 06:45:43 PM
OP: catch up with the series. There is information you do not have, and TV Tropes does not adequately cover all events.

Regardless, I don't see the plot hole. Are you saying that Harry's line about magic usually passing down the maternal line (and that it's apparently well-known) not prompting the White Council to promote a conceive-athon is a plot hole? Because there are tons of other lines of dialogue (including quite a bit in White Night, if I remember, or maybe that's Small Favor/Turn Coat) discussing that the White Council does not have the manpower to manage the wizard-level talents that are springing up as it is. Harry specifically mentions that the wizard population is undergoing a massive expansion (though it's still a fraction of the total population, as most subgroups are) at the moment.

Wizards are also extremely long-lived. They have more time to have children than vanilla mortals do. There is less of a need to rush. Couple that with, as Mr. Death pointed out, big talents can spring up from magical have-nots (the typical patrons of Mac's, for example), or even out of nowhere, and you try to manage that with a few hundred people. There are way, way, way more sensitives in the Dresden Files than there are wizards. Not only are there too many for monitoring all of them to be practical, there had never been an effort (or means, for that matter) to identify all of them. That might change with the
(click to show/hide)

Anyway, it's not a plot hole however you look at it, unless I'm completely missing your point.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: zetadog on August 31, 2018, 07:51:04 AM
The books indicate Harry's magic kicked in a lot younger for him than most humans.

Some of the White Court and Red Court are pretty good at magic beyond the usual vampire powers.  By default they already have some degree of psychic/mind magic.
Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: LordDresden2 on September 03, 2018, 04:45:32 AM
If it's about in utero magic exposure, even a purely mortal mother who spends a lot of time around a very powerful wizard would probably be enough to do it.

The upshot of what we've been told, and what's revealed in the books, is that magic is partly a genetically inherited trait, and partly a learned skill, and partly something else, all interacting together.

The genetic component can be inherited from either parent like most others, but whether that genetic potential will ever manifest itself depends to a considerable degree on environmental factors, again like many other inherited traits.  You can inherit a genetic predisposition toward getting addicted to a given drug, for ex, or catching a particular disease, but if you never encounter that drug or are never exposed to that pathogen, it won't matter and the effect won't happen.  You can inherit the genetic potential for better than 20/20 vision, but if something external damages your eyes, you may still be nearsighted.

You can inherit the magic potential from either parent, but it's a lot, a lot, more likely to manifest itself if you're exposed to magic a lot in the formative stages.  Which means the child of a magical mother is more likely to be magical than the offspring of a magical father, everything else being equal, because he or she is exposed to that magical activity during 9 months of pregnancy.  But as noted by peregrine, if dad is magical and mom is not, but dad is right there all the time slinging magic for some reason, it might improve the odds a lot.

But even then, it also depends on training and unknown factors too.  Harry and Molly, or Harry and Elaine, might have a kid, and that kid is getting high-power magic genes on both sides.  But if he never bothers to train and decides to spend his time becoming, say, an airline pilot or corporate lawyer, he'll never be a Council Wizard even though he almost certainly had the potential.

Magic also involves both the body and the soul.  For ex, when Luccio is transplanted to a new body, she still has all her skill and knowledge, she's still Wizard-level, but there are things she can't do as well because the other body has different potentials.  How the soul-side of it rises and passes on we don't really know.



Title: Re: Salic Law and Harry's Understanding of Magic Genetics
Post by: Dina on September 03, 2018, 05:01:18 AM
Very well said.