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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: vultur on July 07, 2018, 05:15:00 AM

Title: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 07, 2018, 05:15:00 AM
Molly used mind magic to break drug addiction. The side effects were pretty terrible, but Molly was also totally untrained (and with Rosie, who Molly wasn't angry at, I think it was still a net gain in the long run). I'd think that an experienced mind-mage could at least do somewhat better ... certainly get a result that was better than having your head chopped off.

I always figured the reason the White Council didn't do this to remove black-magic addiction/corruption was because it would corrupt the person trying it (and because the Third and Fourth Laws mean that Council members don't develop the skills needed anyway).

But... with the Blackstaff, breaking the Laws doesn't corrupt you...

Now, Eb himself might not have the right talents for this sort of thing (his magic seems more oriented toward "really big explosions... although, Harry's is too, and from Ghost Story it seems he was able to get some basic competence in mind magic in like a year or two of practice...). But is it possible?
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: groinkick on July 07, 2018, 05:35:43 AM
From what I saw it protects the wizard when casting dark magic.  I don't think it would work retroactively
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: peregrine on July 07, 2018, 05:47:44 AM
Yeah.  From what we saw it seems to be a prophylactic, not a cure.

That said, it could possibly help someone else avoid the magical side effects if they were to force the "cure" on you.  Though there's still other side effects to consider besides a black magic taint.  Note that Molly's psychological damage to her friends was unrelated to the black magic and more because she didn't know what she was doing when she did it.

And using it to cure yourself is probably right out.  After all, you have to believe in what you're doing to use magic, and how many people can realize that what they believed in was the wrong thing all along, and decide to change themselves at a fairly basic level?  Which also means that any outside force trying to do magical therapy would likely be against the wishes of the recipient.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 07, 2018, 06:59:01 AM
That said, it could possibly help someone else avoid the magical side effects if they were to force the "cure" on you.

Yeah, that's what I meant - that instead of executing warlocks, the Council could ask Eb to go into their minds and undo the black-magic corruption.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Fcrate on July 07, 2018, 07:53:39 AM
Why bother? Off with their heads, the council says.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 07, 2018, 08:34:42 AM
Why bother? Off with their heads, the council says.

Well, it would be good for the Council as a whole if it became the standard policy. You're not killing off potential members - and slow recruitment was one of the Council's disadvantages vs the Red Court. And not killing warlocks means Wardens are less feared by Paranet types, thus better information & more chances of catching potential warlocks early.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Fcrate on July 07, 2018, 10:06:22 AM
Well, it would be good for the Council as a whole if it became the standard policy. You're not killing off potential members - and slow recruitment was one of the Council's disadvantages vs the Red Court. And not killing warlocks means Wardens are less feared by Paranet types, thus better information & more chances of catching potential warlocks early.
All valid points, and I've said as much in a different thread. However, the number of warlocks is increasing to an unprecedented degree. Such a process will surely be lengthy and draining on the wizard's energy (And mental health) there's only one black staff, and a shortage of people capable of wielding it correctly, even if you thought to pass it around, which is ill advised. Add that to the wizard's normal duties, and the special duties of the black staff, you'll reach the conclusion that even if it were possible, it would be counter productive.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: forumghost on July 07, 2018, 01:23:03 PM
Yeah, that's what I meant - that instead of executing warlocks, the Council could ask Eb to go into their minds and undo the black-magic corruption.

I mean the issue with that is that if you start meddling with peoples brain-meats to 'cure' them they wind up like Molly's friends as their subconscious tries to overcome the brainwashing, likely driving this hypothetical Warlock even more insane then the Black Magic would have done.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: peregrine on July 07, 2018, 03:41:12 PM
Possibly, but there's some difference.  Namely undoing the taint, if done right, would be more like restoring to factory settings than fundamentally changing their personality, like Molly did.  Also, Molly didn't know what she was doing when she did it, and subconsciously wanted to hurt the guy.

That assumes all you'd be doing is undoing the taint.  In which case, you aren't doing anything to change the part of their personality that got tainted in the first place.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on July 07, 2018, 07:47:36 PM
Yeah, that's what I meant - that instead of executing warlocks, the Council could ask Eb to go into their minds and undo the black-magic corruption.
Why doesn't the council employ foo dogs? Or trust Harry since they know what they are for... I presume atl...
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: groinkick on July 07, 2018, 07:57:16 PM
Or trust Harry since they know what they are for

Why should they?  Isn't he supposed to be the manifestation of HHWB as you said?
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on July 07, 2018, 08:06:26 PM
Why should they?  Isn't he supposed to be the manifestation of HHWB as you said?
Yep. now you wanna uselessly cross over arguments here or what huh? don't like my idea? isn't that a shame....
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 07, 2018, 08:06:57 PM
the main reason would be that you want to have some plausible alternative to the death penalty. if the only thing a warlock can expect is to get killed you have nothing to negotiate with, the warlock has no reason to surrender and every reason to take as many with him as possible. It makes them into cornered animals.

Possibly, but there's some difference.  Namely undoing the taint, if done right, would be more like restoring to factory settings than fundamentally changing their personality, like Molly did.  Also, Molly didn't know what she was doing when she did it, and subconsciously wanted to hurt the guy.

That assumes all you'd be doing is undoing the taint.  In which case, you aren't doing anything to change the part of their personality that got tainted in the first place.
You can meddle as much with someones brain as you want as long as you get the persons permission, it is just a form of healing after all. Give us permission to cure your black magic or we cut your head of probably counts.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: forumghost on July 07, 2018, 11:03:16 PM
Why doesn't the council employ foo dogs? Or trust Harry since they know what they are for... I presume atl...

I mean as we know evil/corrupted Foo Dogs are a thing, so Harry having one isn't necessarily an endorsement.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: peregrine on July 08, 2018, 01:28:33 AM
You can meddle as much with someones brain as you want as long as you get the persons permission, it is just a form of healing after all. Give us permission to cure your black magic or we cut your head of probably counts.
Eh....  Permission under duress might make it legal under the Laws of Magic.  But I don't know that, if you know that it's under duress, you wouldn't get the taint.  And giving permission under duress doesn't mean that the warlock wouldn't be trying to resist it all the same, getting that conflict and psychological trauma anyways.

Now, if for some reason a warlock did seriously repent and want help, and thus cooperate and consent to that, things would probably go easier for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: groinkick on July 08, 2018, 05:21:31 AM
Yep. now you wanna uselessly cross over arguments here or what huh? don't like my idea? isn't that a shame....

Yeah that was kinda rude.  Sorry bout that.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 08, 2018, 08:06:48 AM
Eh....  Permission under duress might make it legal under the Laws of Magic. 
Knowing the white council it is probably a grey area you can get away with if you have the right connections but strictly speaking if the alternative is chopping your head off it is always under duress.
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But I don't know that, if you know that it's under duress, you wouldn't get the taint. 
The taint and the laws are different things. There is some correlation but that is all.

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And giving permission under duress doesn't mean that the warlock wouldn't be trying to resist it all the same, getting that conflict and psychological trauma anyways.

Now, if for some reason a warlock did seriously repent and want help, and thus cooperate and consent to that, things would probably go easier for everyone involved.
I think there are several seperate things here that interact and influence each other but are not identical.

The taint will pressure the warlock to do more things that produce even more taint so removing that will make healing possible but the psychological damage will still be there just like killing people with the blackstaff will not give you the taint but can still result in normal psychological damage. Just removing the taint would not damage someone. Replacing it with positive energy might even help someone but that is outside the capabilities of the white council as well. Mouse can do it.



Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on July 08, 2018, 08:53:59 AM
Yeah that was kinda rude.  Sorry bout that.
apology accepted.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 09, 2018, 07:06:46 AM
Such a process will surely be lengthy and draining on the wizard's energy (And mental health)

I doubt it, once the Blackstaff learned how to do it. Mind magic doesn't seem to be inherently super slow or exhausting - the Corpsetaker could do it against Harry pretty quickly in DB, the big mental battle in GS didn't take that much real-world time, etc.

There are a lot of warlocks compared to the number of Wardens, but there's only like 300 Wardens worldwide at best. I don't think the number is really that large in absolute terms.

And you wouldn't necessarily have to do it every time. They could still execute the really scary (eg Kemmlerites) and/or overtly malicious (eg Victor Sells) types. Just having the option for people who did black magic without knowing about the Laws and for not-obviously-evil purposes (like Molly in PG) would probably help the Wardens' relations with the less-powerful practitioners (and thus access to information) a ton.

I mean the issue with that is that if you start meddling with peoples brain-meats to 'cure' them they wind up like Molly's friends as their subconscious tries to overcome the brainwashing, likely driving this hypothetical Warlock even more insane then the Black Magic would have done.

I doubt it. It doesn't seem like mind magic has to inherently drive its targets crazy, Molly just didn't know what she was doing.

I mean Mab is willing to do it to Harry in Small Favor, and she definitely expects to recruit Harry as Winter Knight at that point (she says flat out something like "you will kneel at my feet and ask for the mantle"). So if she expected the results to be long-term incapacitating, she wouldn't do it.

OK, that was short-term, but Peabody was manipulating the Senior Council and Wardens for years (and with malicious intent, unlike the Mab example) and they didn't all go nuts -- in fact, there weren't any obvious symptoms. If they started showing mind-magic symptoms, the whole plot would have been exposed way sooner.

Harry does say something in PG implying that mind magic inherently works that way, yeah, but we know from GS (and DB) that at that point Harry didn't really know anything about mind magic. And anyway, at that point he's worried about convincing Molly that this is A Really Bad Idea.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Quantus on July 09, 2018, 12:48:53 PM
To the OP:  There are two possibilities, and Im not sure how much either of them are proven.

1) The act of Performing the psychic surgery on a person might itself be Black Magic, so trying to cure it would be Tainting. I think this would only be a danger if they were trying it on an unwilling Warlock, as opposed to surgery on a willing target (like the Council had to do a bunch after TC). Same way the Mental Break-in training they started was not tainting the whole Council, because they were never truly breaking into an unwilling target.

2)The Blackstaff item itself can Cure a Warlock.  This is very possible, but only if the Blackstaff is actually sucking out the taint (as it appeared to me in Changes) rather than blocking it's initial infecting.  After that the question is whether the blackstaff can turn that power to another target or if it only works on the Bonded wielder. 
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 09, 2018, 04:44:21 PM


    The way I understand it the purpose of the blackstaff is to protect the wielder from the black magic he or she is performing.. In other words it prevents the user from becoming a warlock..  In a way it is a bit of a "cheat" enabling the use of black magic, it also levels the playing field against a warlock or sorcerer by enabling the use of black magic..   That is why the wielder is selected with such great care, integrity is everything because of the temptation this posses for the wielder..  So can it cure a warlock?  No, unless you call killing one a cure...
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Kindler on July 09, 2018, 05:37:33 PM
I don't think the black magic taint is the only thing that pushes warlocks over the edge; as others have pointed out, there's a psychological component. I haven't had a cigarette in ten years, but I still want one right now, and there is no physical component to that addiction.

It would require much, much more beyond removing the taint. They would have to fundamentally change who they are as a person, becoming someone who isn't willing to use magic to bend others to their will (or kill them, or whatever), and not just by realizing that it's wrong. Molly hasn't used black magic for years, but she still comes awful close to hitting Luccio in Turn Coat, saying something like "I wanted to make her understand." Molly knows it's wrong (morally and legally) to do that, but she still feels the urge, though she thankfully recognized it and stopped it.

Now imagine some good-intentioned talent went on a Fixing Spree to clean up the drug problem in a rehabilitation clinic. They go from room to room and screw with everyone's heads to remove their psychological dependencies. They keep doing that for a month straight before they're caught by the White Council—say they clear two hundred addicts of their addictions. Removing the taint from this do-gooder goes well, but they still want to help, right? To circumvent that, they either need to voluntarily not use magic in that way, through some kind of extended support group, psychological help, or whatever. Or, someone has to go into their head and mess around until they no longer want to use magic for that purpose. How could they do that without attacking their initial motivation, which was the desire to help those less fortunate? Wouldn't that make them a fundamentally worse person?

I mean, to me, it's like cheat codes or game exploits. You know the option is always there, somewhere in the back of your head, and when faced with extreme difficulty, it starts to look a bit more tempting.

The way I see it, the only way to reform a warlock is for them to set aside their magic after removing the taint.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 09, 2018, 05:44:34 PM

    The way I understand it the purpose of the blackstaff is to protect the wielder from the black magic he or she is performing.. In other words it prevents the user from becoming a warlock..  In a way it is a bit of a "cheat" enabling the use of black magic, it also levels the playing field against a warlock or sorcerer by enabling the use of black magic..   That is why the wielder is selected with such great care, integrity is everything because of the temptation this posses for the wielder..  So can it cure a warlock?  No, unless you call killing one a cure...
Of course you can cure a warlock just as you cure a denarian. At the end it is just a matter of free will however difficult.

But at the end it is not very likely most of the time so the wardens just assume that it is not possible or too dangerous and as a working hypothesis it works even if they kill a few curable warlocks.

The knights always try to cure the denarians even when that is dangerous but they are more idealistic and maybe less practical than the white council.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: forumghost on July 09, 2018, 07:20:59 PM
Of course you can cure a warlock just as you cure a denarian. At the end it is just a matter of free will however difficult.

But at the end it is not very likely most of the time so the wardens just assume that it is not possible or too dangerous and as a working hypothesis it works even if they kill a few curable warlocks.

The knights always try to cure the denarians even when that is dangerous but they are more idealistic and maybe less practical than the white council.

The main difference there is if the Knights talk you into setting down the Coin you don't still have the Shadow sitting in your head whispering sweet nothings in your ear, you need to physically pick up another Coin.

If you decide to go cold turkey on the Black Magic you still have the niggling voice in the back of your mind going "Surely a little peak into her head wouldn't hurt" or "Fuck all y'all, Imma burn down this entire building, IDGAF"

I mean don't get me wrong, the WC are assholes. But... yeah they kinda have a point. Both our examples of 'reformed' Warlocks (Harry and Molly) have fallen off the wagon repeatedly.

They just got smart enough to not get caught.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 09, 2018, 07:55:02 PM
Of course you can cure a warlock just as you cure a denarian. At the end it is just a matter of free will however difficult.

But at the end it is not very likely most of the time so the wardens just assume that it is not possible or too dangerous and as a working hypothesis it works even if they kill a few curable warlocks.

The knights always try to cure the denarians even when that is dangerous but they are more idealistic and maybe less practical than the white council.

I believe the Merlin explained it, that once past a certain point, the cure rate is next to zero...  Harry was caught in time, though he has struggled with using the black and has been called a warlock even now...  Molly, I fear would in the end have lost her head because she had a bad habit of slipping back into messing with other people's brains..  So Mab did both her and Harry a favor preparing her to become Winter Lady, it saved her.   Waving the black staff at a warlock isn't an instant cure or a cure at all.. 
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 09, 2018, 08:29:32 PM
The main difference there is if the Knights talk you into setting down the Coin you don't still have the Shadow sitting in your head whispering sweet nothings in your ear, you need to physically pick up another Coin.
Sanya was surely cured and he did it himself. Cassius however was not even after he lost his coin. Centuries of whispering are not erased that easily either.
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If you decide to go cold turkey on the Black Magic you still have the niggling voice in the back of your mind going "Surely a little peak into her head wouldn't hurt" or "Fuck all y'all, Imma burn down this entire building, IDGAF"
Actually Harry does quite well even with the winter mantle adding to it with a similar voice. And Molly did quite well as well even with the war trauma and the white ciuncil hunting her.

It suggests that if you get them early and they really want you certainly can have an effect.
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I mean don't get me wrong, the WC are assholes. But... yeah they kinda have a point. Both our examples of 'reformed' Warlocks (Harry and Molly) have fallen off the wagon repeatedly.

They just got smart enough to not get caught.
All of those falling of the wagon incidents have been discussed here and none of them have been conclusive. They were all open for discussion. And given the stress they are both under I think that is quite remarkable.

And nobody said it was easy but to deny it is possible in principle is denying free will in the dresdenverse.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: morriswalters on July 10, 2018, 12:09:49 AM
My read of the Black Staff was that it was attempting to corrupt the user while it was being used.  Almost as if the staff had it's own existence.  I don't think it wants to cure anyone of anything.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: peregrine on July 10, 2018, 02:02:38 AM
While Harry certainly thinks the staff has its own sentience, Jim has specifically said that it protects the user from the inherent corruption of Black Magic.

The Council would definitely not give the power to kill with magic to someone who holds a tool that makes them want to kill more people with magic.

I suppose it might not work for someone trying to cure someone because it doesn't want to do that.  But it's very specifically not actively corrupting anyone.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on July 10, 2018, 02:36:55 AM
While Harry certainly thinks the staff has its own sentience, Jim has specifically said that it protects the user from the inherent corruption of Black Magic.

The Council would definitely not give the power to kill with magic to someone who holds a tool that makes them want to kill more people with magic.

I suppose it might not work for someone trying to cure someone because it doesn't want to do that.  But it's very specifically not actively corrupting anyone.
citation on that, Harry has made no monologues as to the nature of the Blackstaff.
They don't want to kill more btw, the tool does. It's been described specifically as an insulation against using the cosmic powers it's connected to. Same wording used by the Hexxenwolf belts, that connect to powers inherent in the spirit's of rage. It can be non sentient but connect to a form of such easily.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: peregrine on July 10, 2018, 02:55:32 AM
Changes Chapter 46

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The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 10, 2018, 03:13:47 AM
Molly hasn't used black magic for years, but she still comes awful close to hitting Luccio in Turn Coat, saying something like "I wanted to make her understand." Molly knows it's wrong (morally and legally) to do that, but she still feels the urge, though she thankfully recognized it and stopped it.

I think that is the same thing as the taint.

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Removing the taint from this do-gooder goes well, but they still want to help, right? To circumvent that, they either need to voluntarily not use magic in that way, through some kind of extended support group, psychological help, or whatever. Or, someone has to go into their head and mess around until they no longer want to use magic for that purpose. How could they do that without attacking their initial motivation, which was the desire to help those less fortunate? Wouldn't that make them a fundamentally worse person?

I don't think so. With the taint removed, if you explained to them that doing that did more harm than good, if their real motivation was to do good then they wouldn't do it any more.*

But even if not, a clever Blackstaff could get around that... You wouldn't have to attack their motivations at all, just make them not think of using magic in that particular way (exactly like what Mab did to Harry).

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The way I see it, the only way to reform a warlock is for them to set aside their magic after removing the taint.

Well, it seems to have worked for Harry... the Winter Mantle temptations have nothing to do with black-magic corruption. He really hasn't shown any signs of that since he got rid of Lasciel's coin, arguably not since well before that (all the anger stuff in PG-WN might have been pure Lasciel influence; I'm not sure anything since GP is confidently attributable to black-magic effects).


It suggests that if you get them early and they really want you certainly can have an effect. All of those falling of the wagon incidents have been discussed here and none of them have been conclusive. They were all open for discussion. And given the stress they are both under I think that is quite remarkable.

Also, every time Molly uses mind magic after PG it seems pretty justifiable, even if technically against the Council's laws (confirming manipulation on Harry in SmF and Luccio in TC*), and Harry was willing in Changes so I don't think that even counts as against the Laws.

*The Council not allowing you to check for that is flat out suicidal on an organizational level in a world with White Court and a Black Council. Hopefully they've softened on that after TC... If checks for influence were standard for the Senior Council and the Wardens, Peabody could never have done all that damage.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on July 10, 2018, 04:31:17 AM
Changes Chapter 46
indeed the tool itself wants to kill, not the wielder.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 10, 2018, 11:52:24 AM
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Sanya was surely cured and he did it himself. Cassius however was not even after he lost his coin. Centuries of whispering are not erased that easily either.

You can call it a "cure" I guess, but Sanya gave up the coin of his own free will, and redeemed himself of his own free will.. The coin had nothing to do with that , comparing the coins to the blackstaff is apple and oranges... 

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Also, every time Molly uses mind magic after PG it seems pretty justifiable, even if technically against the Council's laws (confirming manipulation on Harry in SmF and Luccio in TC*), and Harry was willing in Changes so I don't think that even counts as against the Laws.

No, it is not, go back and read Turn Coat the warning Harry gives her is pretty stern that her head was on the line along with his..  He made if very clear that she was violating the Laws no matter what her motivation was.
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Changes Chapter 46

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    The Blackstaff itself pulsed and shimmered with shadowy power, and I got the sudden sense that the thing was alive, that it knew its purpose and wanted nothing more than to be used, as often and as spectacularly as possible.


Yeah, and I believe that Eb told Harry at some point that it leaves it's mark on the wielder but at the moment the exact quote escapes me.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 10, 2018, 01:12:28 PM
You can call it a "cure" I guess, but Sanya gave up the coin of his own free will, and redeemed himself of his own free will.. The coin had nothing to do with that , comparing the coins to the blackstaff is apple and oranges... 
No comparison is 100% correct because then things would be identical but it is about how a comparison can help us. Some people can cure themselves and that is exactly what Sanya started when he threw away the coin.

He was helped by the insight he got when he heard the other denarians talk about him. A beginning warlock might get insights in other ways. Part of the problem is that young wizards have little or no knowledge about the dangers.

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No, it is not, go back and read Turn Coat the warning Harry gives her is pretty stern that her head was on the line along with his..  He made if very clear that she was violating the Laws no matter what her motivation was.
Sure it is but Harry's interpretation is pretty stern and he was trying to keep Molly safe. Molly did something similar when she looked at Harry in small favor and Luccio, who is sometimes somewhat more relaxed, did not say a thing. This is again a gray area.

Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 10, 2018, 01:56:57 PM
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Sure it is but Harry's interpretation is pretty stern and he was trying to keep Molly safe. Molly did something similar when she looked at Harry in small favor and Luccio, who is sometimes somewhat more relaxed, did not say a thing. This is again a gray area.

No, not a gray area, whatever her motive, she broke the Law... 

Turn Coat page256
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"You broke the Laws of Magic, Molly.  Willfully.  Even though you knew it could cost you your life.  Even though you knew that it could also cost mine. 

Not a gray area at all, it could have cost them both their heads... Highlighted by Morgan's dying words to Harry about Molly...

page 394 Turn Coat
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"I didn't tell them about Molly.  What she tried to do to Ana.  I. . . I didn't tell.

A couple of things going on, he is telling Harry in his own way that he was sorry for being such a hard ass with him.  He is telling him that he has hope that it will work out for Molly, that basically she is a good person..  However it doesn't change the fact that if he had turned her in, she would have lost her head, and along with it Harry would have lost his head.  She did break the Law of Magic,  and would have paid the price if Morgan had turned her in.

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No comparison is 100% correct because then things would be identical but it is about how a comparison can help us. Some people can cure themselves and that is exactly what Sanya started when he threw away the coin.

He was helped by the insight he got when he heard the other denarians talk about him. A beginning warlock might get insights in other ways. Part of the problem is that young wizards have little or no knowledge about the dangers.

Except that isn't how the blackstaff works,  there is only one, and the wielder is assigned the office to wield it...  Yes, free will to accept the office, also the blackstaff isn't constantly in Eb's head, unlike the Fallen of the Coins..  True, young wizards have little knowledge when their talents awake without guidance from a mentor, but again this has nothing to do with the blackstaff...  If it were so simple that a young would be warlock could be so easily cured, why isn't Eb busily waving it at would be warlocks instead of them getting their heads lopped off?
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 10, 2018, 02:06:18 PM
No, not a gray area, whatever her motive, she broke the Law... 

Turn Coat page256
Not a gray area at all, it could have cost them both their heads... Highlighted by Morgan's dying words to Harry about Molly...

page 394 Turn Coat
A couple of things going on, he is telling Harry in his own way that he was sorry for being such a hard ass with him.  He is telling him that he has hope that it will work out for Molly, that basically she is a good person..  However it doesn't change the fact that if he had turned her in, she would have lost her head, and along with it Harry would have lost his head.  She did break the Law of Magic,  and would have paid the price if Morgan had turned her in.
I know about turn coat but Harry and Morgan both have their reasons to interpret the laws as strict as possible, Luccio's silence in proven guilty still indicates that other interpretations are possible. No quotation from Turn Coat can change that.

And Molly was still under the doom so any act that looked a little bit gray could be dangerous for her especially if Harry stopped supporting her.

Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: peregrine on July 10, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
indeed the tool itself wants to kill, not the wielder.
Yes.  But I was responding to the comment that it wanted to corrupt the user.  The part about it having its own sentience is unrelated to the fact that Jim has said it protects from corruption, not that it causes it.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on July 10, 2018, 03:42:12 PM
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The Council would definitely not give the power to kill with magic to someone who holds a tool that makes them want to kill more people with magic.
Conjecture.... and slightly oxymoronic lol.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 10, 2018, 06:36:25 PM
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I know about turn coat but Harry and Morgan both have their reasons to interpret the laws as strict as possible, Luccio's silence in proven guilty still indicates that other interpretations are possible. No quotation from Turn Coat can change that.

And Molly was still under the doom so any act that looked a little bit gray could be dangerous for her especially if Harry stopped supporting her

 Luccio had already been brain raped by Peabody and under the influence, which influenced her involvement with Harry.   She may not have even been aware at the time that Molly entered her brain that she had because of what already had been done to her, her involvement with Harry may also have been a factor.   Or because the damage done to her by Peabody was severe, she may not remember it..  There is also the desire for a cover up on the whole matter, so Molly may have dodged a bullet in this case..  However in no way is going into another's mind without permission a gray area, it is breaking the Laws of Magic pure and simple...
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 10, 2018, 07:19:51 PM
Luccio had already been brain raped by Peabody and under the influence, which influenced her involvement with Harry.   She may not have even been aware at the time that Molly entered her brain that she had because of what already had been done to her, her involvement with Harry may also have been a factor.   Or because the damage done to her by Peabody was severe, she may not remember it..  There is also the desire for a cover up on the whole matter, so Molly may have dodged a bullet in this case..  However in no way is going into another's mind without permission a gray area, it is breaking the Laws of Magic pure and simple...
The laws are a fundamental part of Luccio's soul, she could not use magic to kill LaFortier even when completely under Peabodies control. Besides of she was not enthralled to such an extend that she could not function as captain of the wardens.

And in dead beat she did react differently to Sue than Morgan did.

Having a quick look to see if someone is tampered with may very well be a gray area.

Jim made it deliberately murky just to get more tension

Even more murky if you read Morgan's last words:

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“I didn’t tell anyone about Molly. What she tried to do to Ana. I . . . I didn’t tell.”

Trying is not breaking the law. You only break the law if you succeed. Morgan's word is just not enough to confirm law breaking.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Quantus on July 10, 2018, 07:22:36 PM
Luccio had already been brain raped by Peabody and under the influence, which influenced her involvement with Harry.   She may not have even been aware at the time that Molly entered her brain that she had because of what already had been done to her, her involvement with Harry may also have been a factor.   Or because the damage done to her by Peabody was severe, she may not remember it..  There is also the desire for a cover up on the whole matter, so Molly may have dodged a bullet in this case..  However in no way is going into another's mind without permission a gray area, it is breaking the Laws of Magic pure and simple...
Agreed on that, with the qualifier that the Act itself can be arguably Dark Grey rather than black. For example, it may have been the case when they were having to inspect and De-Program the entire council membership post-Peabody, we're talking about /mandatory/ psychic examination and 'treatment' by one of the top two most creepy Senior Council Members; or that time Molly "Examined" Harry to discover Mab's meddling and he sorta kinda maybe subconsciously gave her permission, but both Michael and Luccio did not object.   
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 11, 2018, 12:36:50 AM
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Trying is not breaking the law. You only break the law if you succeed. Morgan's word is just not enough to confirm law breaking.

However attempting to murder someone is also a violation of the law...  Molly knew what she was doing, she deliberately tried to get into her head, whether she succeeded or not is beside the point, the mere act is a violation.
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that time Molly "Examined" Harry to discover Mab's meddling and he sorta kinda maybe subconsciously gave her permission, but both Michael and Luccio did not object.   
Did he?  I doubt it, it was so important to Michael and a Holy Knight to know whether or not Lasiel still had a hold over Harry that he was willing to risk his daughter.. Not just immediately, as if caught she would lose her head, but sending her down the slippery slope to warlockhood, if it could be justified then what was to stop her in the future... As in later in Turn Coat she thought she was justified in going into Luccio's head then, as she thought the first time she did it.. As for Luccio, she was under Peabody's influence back when Molly went into Harry's head, so her actions on the matter are not really her own...
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: groinkick on July 11, 2018, 02:03:04 AM
However attempting to murder someone is also a violation of the law... 

If you're under the Doom this may be the case.  Not so with the laws of magic.  As I posted in another topic, the laws are not like our laws in the criminal justice system.  They are not about morality.  They are about magical corruption, warlocks, Outsiders, and time travel.  Attempting to kill someone with magic isn't the same as doing it.  It doesn't cause the same taint, at least from what I can tell.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 11, 2018, 04:52:53 AM
If you're under the Doom this may be the case.  Not so with the laws of magic.  As I posted in another topic, the laws are not like our laws in the criminal justice system.  They are not about morality.  They are about magical corruption, warlocks, Outsiders, and time travel.  Attempting to kill someone with magic isn't the same as doing it.  It doesn't cause the same taint, at least from what I can tell.

But they are about morality,  why is there a law about going into someone's mind without their permission?   If you attempt to kill someone with magic once, just because you don't succeed that doesn't mean you won't try again and succeed... What is there to prevent you trying again... Yes, it does cause some staining
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 11, 2018, 05:23:28 AM
But they are about morality,  why is there a law about going into someone's mind without their permission?   If you attempt to kill someone with magic once, just because you don't succeed that doesn't mean you won't try again and succeed... What is there to prevent you trying again... Yes, it does cause some staining
No they are not. The laws of magic are about restricting the use of magic, not about morality. Luccio explains this somewhere and there is also woj. Harry’s mother could not accept that either but that is what it is.

And with the laws of magic results are everything and intentions are nothing. There is also woj about that. If you by accident break the laws you are guilty. If you try however hard to break the laws but you don’t succeed you are not.

The white council can not kill every hack who wants to kill someone with magic but does not have the power or skill to succeed.

Molly’s situation was more complicated because she was already convicted, we do not know the exact implications of that but we know about Morgan and baby bunnies so don’t take his actions or words as what every warden would do.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: groinkick on July 11, 2018, 05:36:58 AM
No they are not. The laws of magic are about restricting the use of magic, not about morality. Luccio explains this somewhere and there is also woj. Harry’s mother could not accept that either but that is what it is.

And with the laws of magic results are everything and intentions are nothing. There is also woj about that. If you by accident break the laws you are guilty. If you try however hard to break the laws but you don’t succeed you are not.

The white council can not kill every hack who wants to kill someone with magic but does not have the power or skill to succeed.

Molly’s situation was more complicated because she was already convicted, we do not know the exact implications of that but we know about Morgan and baby bunnies so don’t take his actions or words as what every warden would do.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/IoQBWXhpwsd0c/giphy.gif)


My personal theory is that because magic comes from creation itself, black magic comes from the Outside which is why the wizard goes crazy.  So again its not about morality but to keep the wizard from going Outsider insane.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on July 11, 2018, 09:13:47 AM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/IoQBWXhpwsd0c/giphy.gif)


My personal theory is that because magic comes from creation itself, black magic comes from the Outside which is why the wizard goes crazy.  So again its not about morality but to keep the wizard from going Outsider insane.
Precisely my good Doctor Holmes(sorry, I get to be Sherlock :) )
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Fcrate on July 11, 2018, 10:36:15 AM
Don't you mean Watson? Lol
Actually, groinkick, your personal theory suggests that we're not inherently capable of evil. I disagree. From my understanding, black magic isn't much different from white, both come from inside of you, you believe in both of them, it's just a matter of circumstance which one comes forth. Like healing a distraught mind attack victim instead of twisting him or her further to your own purposes. Like setting a whole party on fire, killing a few innocents to help yourself and your friends escape. Knowledge of the fact that there were innocents and  still choosing to kill them is black magic.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: wardenferry419 on July 11, 2018, 10:44:06 AM
Precisely my good Doctor Holmes(sorry, I get to be Sherlock :) )
Out of curiousity. What movie is that gif from?
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Fcrate on July 11, 2018, 11:18:16 AM
Out of curiousity. What movie is that gif from?
Lol, I have exactly the same question, however, you quoted the wrong poster.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Wizard Sibelis on July 11, 2018, 12:39:54 PM
Don't you mean Watson? Lol
Face palm all day lol..
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Actually, groinkick, your personal theory suggests that we're not inherently capable of evil. I disagree. From my understanding, black magic isn't much different from white, both come from inside of you, you believe in both of them, it's just a matter of circumstance which one comes forth. Like healing a distraught mind attack victim instead of twisting him or her further to your own purposes. Like setting a whole party on fire, killing a few innocents to help yourself and your friends escape. Knowledge of the fact that there were innocents and  still choosing to kill them is black magic.
I don't disagree that humans already possess that same alloy, but that doesn't make it inherently their nature. The yin-yang symbol is a great metaphor here, Yang is always yang even though it possesses yin, but what if it started acting more and more 'yin' over it's nature of yang? Would it not conform to a new identity? (I like to, btw, liken DR to that dot within the other, that balance of the two poles by containing at it's core the other)
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 11, 2018, 01:55:23 PM
No, it is not, go back and read Turn Coat the warning Harry gives her is pretty stern that her head was on the line along with his..  He made if very clear that she was violating the Laws no matter what her motivation was.

In Turn Coat, checking Luccio for corruption was definitely against the Law (as enforced by the Council, whether or not it would be corrupting). I think it was still justifiable, though.

In Changes, editing Harry's memory probably wasn't against the Law, since he asked her to. I think it was more morally questionable, though (not in the "black magic corruption" sense, just the regular human sense).

Like setting a whole party on fire, killing a few innocents to help yourself and your friends escape. Knowledge of the fact that there were innocents and  still choosing to kill them is black magic.

The bit in Grave Peril is a bit more questionable, IMO, because he didn't do it to help them escape, he did it to destroy the vampires. If he were consciously sacrificing innocents, sure, that would definitely be black magic. But the way it's written it doesn't seem like he was really aware that some of them were still alive, and he was at least partly avenging their deaths; it looks like he realized later (after he woke up with Michael), reviewing his memory of the events, that they weren't all dead.

Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Kindler on July 11, 2018, 03:04:00 PM
I think that is the same thing as the taint.
Personally, I think it's more that Molly keeps looking to magic to solve problems.
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I don't think so. With the taint removed, if you explained to them that doing that did more harm than good, if their real motivation was to do good then they wouldn't do it any more.*

But even if not, a clever Blackstaff could get around that... You wouldn't have to attack their motivations at all, just make them not think of using magic in that particular way (exactly like what Mab did to Harry).

Well, both of these rely on each other, so first I'll point out that what Mab did to Harry was stupid, dangerous, and necessary. When Harry realized what had been done to him, he had a total freaking meltdown in Michael's shed. He literally did not understand the words "blasting rod."

That was after a day. Imagine what it would do to a person if it came apart after a month, or a year—suddenly realizing that you were not who you thought you were for an extended time. I think you'd have some fundamentally fractured psyches.

As far as the first, I disagree. I think you'll get some who will understand the damage they're doing, but there will be others who will see a problem that is too difficult to solve without magic, and they'll fall back on it, even if their intentions are good. I honestly think that the only way to make sure they don't do it again is if they set aside their magic, which brings me to my next point:
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Well, it seems to have worked for Harry... the Winter Mantle temptations have nothing to do with black-magic corruption. He really hasn't shown any signs of that since he got rid of Lasciel's coin, arguably not since well before that (all the anger stuff in PG-WN might have been pure Lasciel influence; I'm not sure anything since GP is confidently attributable to black-magic effects).
Yeah, I know it's the Winter Mantle. I don't think Harry was ever tainted to begin with. I just think that he spent his childhood getting pushed around, then his teenage years getting abused, until he finally was strong enough to stand up for himself. Occasionally, he feels like using that strength to curbstomp his enemies. That's entirely normal; I get that feeling on occasion too.

But Molly certainly IS tainted.
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Also, every time Molly uses mind magic after PG it seems pretty justifiable, even if technically against the Council's laws (confirming manipulation on Harry in SmF and Luccio in TC*), and Harry was willing in Changes so I don't think that even counts as against the Laws.
Yeah, and she's been entirely stable since Changes, right? What about all of the murders she committed as the Rag Lady? She has a meltdown explaining how easy it is to kill crooked cops with magic, and it's pretty obvious she's messed up, and not just from screwing with Harry's head.

I don't particularly care about the Laws, as I think that they're unnecessarily byzantine, but there really is no way to reform warlocks after a certain point, regardless of their motives. I mean, Molly was protecting Chicago, but still outright killing people with her magic, even though there were A) other options available, and B) she knew it would screw her up further.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: groinkick on July 11, 2018, 04:39:55 PM
Precisely my good Doctor Holmes(sorry, I get to be Sherlock :) )

lol
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 11, 2018, 07:40:09 PM
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In Turn Coat, checking Luccio for corruption was definitely against the Law (as enforced by the Council, whether or not it would be corrupting). I think it was still justifiable, though.


  Agreed, however for someone already under the Doom, I seriously doubt the Senior Council would give her another bite of the apple...  What Harry's point was that it is very dangerous for Molly to decide when it is or isn't justified to break the Law..  Remember that is what got her into trouble in the first place, not breaking a law she didn't know existed but thinking she could go into her friend's mind without thinking through the consequences... She hadn't learned her lesson is what he was saying.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: morriswalters on July 11, 2018, 10:23:19 PM
I mean, Molly was protecting Chicago, but still outright killing people with her magic, even though there were A) other options available, and B) she knew it would screw her up further.
This struck me as not quite right, so I looked it up.  It's an interesting point.  She kills no one.  She simply presents an opportunity for people to see what they fear they might see.  The victims killed each other.

It's a little spooky ethically speaking.  Think going into a grocery store and handing the cashier typing paper that is made to look like money.  Immoral, but no laws broken.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Fcrate on July 11, 2018, 10:53:20 PM
This struck me as not quite right, so I looked it up.  It's an interesting point.  She kills no one.  She simply presents an opportunity for people to see what they fear they might see.  The victims killed each other.

It's a little spooky ethically speaking.  Think going into a grocery store and handing the cashier typing paper that is made to look like money.  Immoral, but no laws broken.
Which brings up the point: Why the heck was she starving? lack of imagination?
I say morriswalters is a villian in the making. FBI watchers, please take note and black bag him.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 11, 2018, 11:18:34 PM
This struck me as not quite right, so I looked it up.  It's an interesting point.  She kills no one.  She simply presents an opportunity for people to see what they fear they might see.  The victims killed each other.

It's a little spooky ethically speaking.  Think going into a grocery store and handing the cashier typing paper that is made to look like money.  Immoral, but no laws broken.

However her first victims, her friends that she thought she was helping were seriously harmed by her entering their minds and trying to change their perception of things..  Yeah, the Law was broken, one isn't allowed to enter the mind of another... It is so strict that most members of the White Council have only the merest and ineffective defenses against an attack on their minds, they fear it that much... Molly and Harry were in violation to some degree by practicing on each other.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 12, 2018, 02:47:51 AM
However her first victims, her friends that she thought she was helping were seriously harmed by her entering their minds and trying to change their perception of things..  Yeah, the Law was broken, one isn't allowed to enter the mind of another... It is so strict that most members of the White Council have only the merest and ineffective defenses against an attack on their minds, they fear it that much... Molly and Harry were in violation to some degree by practicing on each other.
No they were not. They gave each other permission, they were invited. It was not an invasion. The whole word invade becomes meaningless if every entering is an invasion and a lot of obviously legal things become impossible like the gatekeeper healing people in turncoat.

Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Mira on July 12, 2018, 04:37:55 AM
No they were not. They gave each other permission, they were invited. It was not an invasion. The whole word invade becomes meaningless if every entering is an invasion and a lot of obviously legal things become impossible like the gatekeeper healing people in turncoat.

Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted..   To their credit Harry and Molly both thought this was stupid and trained each other, however they did it in secret because it would have gotten them into a lot of trouble...  Enemies on the Council may even have gone so far as to declare it an infraction of the Law.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 12, 2018, 04:46:16 AM
Well, both of these rely on each other, so first I'll point out that what Mab did to Harry was stupid, dangerous, and necessary. When Harry realized what had been done to him, he had a total freaking meltdown in Michael's shed. He literally did not understand the words "blasting rod."

That was after a day. Imagine what it would do to a person if it came apart after a month, or a year—suddenly realizing that you were not who you thought you were for an extended time. I think you'd have some fundamentally fractured psyches.

Oh, the realization itself would be really unpleasant -- but I don't think there'd necessarily be lasting damage.

I mean, we see the Merlin and Luccio in Changes after they were mind-warped for years by Peabody and they don't act messed up. Luccio even got body-swapped by the Corpsetaker, and she's still quite functional (it did give her nightmares -- but she was way less affected than Rosie and Nelson, from a way more fundamental attack, and one that was malicious rather than well-intentioned).

For that matter, Harry got his mind invaded by the Corpsetaker in DB and Molly and Butters got possessed by the Corpsetaker in GS. They don't show aftereffects like Molly's victims.

The evidence seems to show, IMO, that those kind of aftereffects only happened because Molly had no idea what she was doing -- the only other times we see serious, lasting effects are from actually having big chunks of your spirit eaten (Murphy and the Nightmare in GP, and Justine and Thomas in BR).

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I don't think Harry was ever tainted to begin with.

Sure he was - Ulsharavas (early in DM) can detect the taint on him.

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Yeah, and she's been entirely stable since Changes, right? What about all of the murders she committed as the Rag Lady? She has a meltdown explaining how easy it is to kill crooked cops with magic, and it's pretty obvious she's messed up, and not just from screwing with Harry's head.
Molly is crazy, sure, but there's a bunch of other factors playing into that -- her guilt for Harry's death and her need to fill his role would be quite enough to severely mess up a lot of people, and there's also her heightened emotional sensitivity and the psychic-shock aftereffects of Chichen Itza.

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I mean, Molly was protecting Chicago, but still outright killing people with her magic
We actually don't know that, it's pretty ambiguous, since:
- some of the Rag Lady stuff was Lea
- the turtlenecks are indistinguishable from normal humans once they die, since the Fomor implants turn into ectoplasm
- Molly's talents aren't particularly conducive to killing directly with magic - being under a veil and stabbing someone doesn't break the First Law, and I don't think the illusion-of-a-gun thing that led to getting someone shot would either. An Alpha-style werewolf killing in wolf form or a Warden binding someone with a spell and then killing with an enchanted sword don't break the First Law.

Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted.. 

Yes. According to Harry in GS, that was later changed (probably in response to Peabody's mind-warping the Senior Council and Wardens, although maybe it started earlier -- maybe Luccio lobbied for it after her experience with the Corpsetaker).
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: peregrine on July 12, 2018, 04:59:26 AM
Re: an Alpha killing someone in wolf form, have we seen them actually kill any pure humans, in which they might run afoul of the Council?
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 12, 2018, 05:07:41 AM
Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted..   To their credit Harry and Molly both thought this was stupid and trained each other, however they did it in secret because it would have gotten them into a lot of trouble...  Enemies on the Council may even have gone so far as to declare it an infraction of the Law.
The type of training Harry and Molly did requires a high level of trust between the participants, that can not be standard council routine if only for that reason.

But the weak training against mental attack? That was just because the council let it slide, maybe even under Peabodies influence. The older wizards knew how to do it and did set up some training after turncoat, both were impossible if it was really breaking the laws.

The council policy surely changed but the laws itself don’t change as easily as the councils policies.

Though I can buy Harry or Molly breaking the laws under immediate pressure of some emergency seeing no other way out, there is no undisputed example in the books since proven guilty but I can....

A scheduled weekly appointment as part of the apprentice training? Every Thursday afternoon law breaking at 16:30? Really?

Harry simply can not do such a thing.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 12, 2018, 05:46:51 AM
Re: an Alpha killing someone in wolf form, have we seen them actually kill any pure humans, in which they might run afoul of the Council?

Seen, no, but I think it's mentioned that they've dealt with mundane criminals as well as supernatural predators. Maybe they all survived, but that's not the impression I got.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 12, 2018, 06:14:05 AM
Seen, no, but I think it's mentioned that they've dealt with mundane criminals as well as supernatural predators. Maybe they all survived, but that's not the impression I got.
Just killed with normal claws by a normal wolf. Not even a magic wolf. Not like the wolf used a magic sword or something like that. I see no problems.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: morriswalters on July 12, 2018, 11:04:43 AM
Which brings up the point: Why the heck was she starving? lack of imagination?
Maybe because she's honest?  And being a villain is tiring, I prefer to be lazy.
Molly and Harry were in violation to some degree by practicing on each other.
I wouldn't think so.  The council actually teaches the defenses.  And after the events of Turn Coat, it seems obvious that they must have practitioners that can help those who have been tampered with.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: groinkick on July 12, 2018, 05:20:01 PM
Yes, but remember when Harry would have died from his first encounter with the Corpsetaker but for Gard's intervention?  The reason he almost died was because of lack of proper training against mental attacks..  The reason for his lack of training weren't the usual ones, i.e. Harry's own laziness or lack of exposure to it because of Justin, but because the Council feared and prohibited any form of this magical training beyond the minimal defensive type.   So the Council prohibited it even if permission from the two parties was granted..   To their credit Harry and Molly both thought this was stupid and trained each other, however they did it in secret because it would have gotten them into a lot of trouble...  Enemies on the Council may even have gone so far as to declare it an infraction of the Law.

Well as Jim said he sees the Council like the government.  Good intentions that mess everything up.
Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: Arjan on July 12, 2018, 06:11:13 PM
Peabody would certainly try to sabotage such training and use his influence to do so but I do not think he could change everyone’s idea about how the laws were meant to be implemented.

If the old guard knew how to do the training and the training was set up without any protests about its legality it had always been legal. Apart from the obvious reading of the laws that tells us it is legal.

Title: Re: Could the Blackstaff Cure a Warlock of Corruption?
Post by: vultur on July 13, 2018, 01:23:54 AM
Peabody would certainly try to sabotage such training and use his influence to do so but I do not think he could change everyone’s idea about how the laws were meant to be implemented.

If the old guard knew how to do the training and the training was set up without any protests about its legality it had always been legal. Apart from the obvious reading of the laws that tells us it is legal.

The implication seems to be that training that way was in disuse for a really, really long time though (centuries, since only a few wizards remembered how to do it). Probably from way before Black Council/Circle activity.

There's enough sway in the Wardens' enforcement of the Laws that I don't think it's as simple as 'if it's legal now it always was'. (I think under different circumstances Harry could have been executed for animating Sue the T-Rex.)

More likely, though, cooperative willing mind-magic training was never flat out the-Wardens-will-kill-you illegal, but it was Not Done because the Council considered mind magic in general way too dangerous an area, until Peabody and/or Corpsetaker demonstrated just how suicidally stupid that idea was.