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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Jack of Hearts on May 24, 2018, 01:27:06 AM
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My apologies if this has been discussed before but I was curious if it has been established that a death curse has to be cast on the person who is responsible for the wizards death? The reason I ask this is because if this isn't the case then could a wizard's death be used in positive way instead of cursing someone? By this I mean instead of harming the person who is killing you you instead use the power of your death to boost the power of another magic user. Or maybe something less permanent like using your death to power or boost the effect of a spell being performed by another. We have seen rituals being powered by human sacrifice which wouldn't be much different.
I think it would be cool to see an important magic user character know they are about to die and use their death to boost or give power to a spell or ritual that Harry attempting to perform. Or give Harry another boost in power when he needs it. I love me a good willingly heroic sacrifice in stories and if this is possible I think it would make a good way for certain characters to go out with a bang....
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Yes, you could use a Death Blessing. When Harry thought he was about to die, I think in Dead Beat when Morgan was gonna execute him, he made plans to use it for something to help Morgan and Luccio stop the necromancers, rather than use it against Morgan.
The main thing is that when you're a wizard who is about to die, you're most likely going to be focused on revenge against the person who did it. So that's the most common use.
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Yes, you could use a Death Blessing. When Harry thought he was about to die, I think in Dead Beat when Morgan was gonna execute him, he made plans to use it for something to help Morgan and Luccio stop the necromancers, rather than use it against Morgan.
The main thing is that when you're a wizard who is about to die, you're most likely going to be focused on revenge against the person who did it. So that's the most common use.
He planned to use it to destroy or at least cripple the necromancers. Not boost the power of, say Carlos or to heal Luccio.
I think Jack of Hearts meant something along the lines of Traitor Son Cycles, where the Saint -I forgot her name, the b**ch- used her ascension/death to boost the magical reserves of her allies.
For DF however, I don't think that's likely; as a death curse is cast by a dying wizard, it would be primarily destructive. To perform magic you have to believe in it, and it's tough to believe in peace and love or anything constructive while your throat is being slit, or so I believe.
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I think Jack of Hearts meant something along the lines of Traitor Son Cycles, where the Saint -I forgot her name, the b**ch- used her ascension/death to boost the magical reserves of her allies.
For DF however, I don't think that's likely; as a death curse is cast by a dying wizard, it would be primarily destructive. To perform magic you have to believe in it, and it's tough to believe in peace and love or anything constructive while your throat is being slit, or so I believe.
Yes this is pretty much what I meant. I can understand why most death curses are used in destructive ways because of the natural human reaction to dying and wanting to lash out at the person or thing responsible for your death.
Lets take it a step further. What if a magic user is dying of natural causes or old age? They would be more likely to know when its their time to go compared to a mortal. Could they pass down their power or a portion of their power to another? Perhaps this is how some wizards got to be so powerful? I know this a stretch but it got me thinking. It could even be a mantle of sorts if it was continuously passed down....
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Interesting thought, I'm not sure if it's possible, but if it happened like you think it would, we'd have "bloodlines" of wizards getting more powerful every generation.
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okay the funny point is how many outsider cults use blood magic to summon a outsider use the freaking dead curse as destructive final f you you guys think? nearly every sacrifice using blood magic willing sacrifice uses their dead curse to get the demon appear in material world instead of taking revenge on the guy who does the final act.
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The main thing is that when you're a wizard who is about to die, you're most likely going to be focused on revenge against the person who did it.
That was basically what Jim said, so you got the jist of it. But yes, you can. You just aren't going to typically have good intentions, feeling etc when you are dying so your death likely will result in a curse rather than a blessing.
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Harry does, at some point, question what happens when he lays down a death curse backed by Soulfire. He meant it reference to what happens to his soul if it's burned up in a death curse, but Soulfire is a creative force, not a destructive one. Maybe a Soulfire Death Curse could be used in a purely creative fashion, rather than a purely destructive one.
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Didn't Jesus cast a "Death Blessing"?
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I wouldn't work too hard in trying to fit religious figures like Jesus into the Dresden Files. I'd suggest treat it as an anomaly, then we aren't discussing too touchy subjects and trying to fit real world religious thought into fictitious magical theory.
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I wouldn't work too hard in trying to fit religious figures like Jesus into the Dresden Files. I'd suggest treat it as an anomaly, then we aren't discussing too touchy subjects and trying to fit real world religious thought into fictitious magical theory.
Good notion. But for the sake of argument...
Didn't Jesus cast a "Death Blessing"?
...I would say that is more of a massive Dispel directed at a universe-wide curse.
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Could you prepare a specialise foci to channel and focus your death curse for a specific purpose? So that when you can cast the death curse at a time and place of their choosing
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Could you prepare a specialise foci to channel and focus your death curse for a specific purpose? So that when you can cast the death curse at a time and place of their choosing
Interesting. I didn't even consider that. It would go back to my thought of it being rare for your death to be planned which doesn't usually happen but if a wizard did die of old age and knew when it was going to happen. Why not capitalize on it and use it to do something good or powerful with the use of a ritual or foci?....
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Just my opinion but one needs to strongly believe in what they are doing to use magic. A "death curse" may require that much more belief because of the sheer power being used. So it may be difficult to do things other than pure revenge, OR using it to save or protect someone much like what Harry's mom did.
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Just my opinion but one needs to strongly believe in what they are doing to use magic. A "death curse" may require that much more belief because of the sheer power being used. So it may be difficult to do things other than pure revenge, OR using it to save or protect someone much like what Harry's mom did.
Harry's Mom didn't do it to protect or save anyone though. She did it to get back at Raith.
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Harry's Mom didn't do it to protect or save anyone though. She did it to get back at Raith.
She did more than just that. She sandbagged the entire White Court according to Jim. So Raith's pain was a bonus but I get the impression it was also a tactical move. I don't remember everything Jim said but it seemed like she did have a purpose larger than just Raith when she did what she did.
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Interesting thought, I'm not sure if it's possible, but if it happened like you think it would, we'd have "bloodlines" of wizards getting more powerful every generation.
We don't hear about family lines of wizards in the DF. (Maybe this should be part of another thread.) Harry is the exception in the series, so far. He knows his mother was a powerful wizard and he knows one grandfather, who is on the Senior Council. Long lived wizards can outlive their progeny; especially those who are born as vanilla mortals, and some wizards; like those who become wardens, have a more dangerous lifestyle than a wizard who spends most of their time doing magical research. So the wizard doing research could still outlive his higher risk taking, though magically gifted children. Add to this the secretive nature of being a wizard and you have a lot of people who don't communicate well with others, including members of their own families.
Of course we can put down our lack of knowledge of other wizard families to Harry's general isolation from the White Council for most of his life, but we do know a little about one other wizard. In Turn Coat Harry asked Luccio if she had family. She replied "Yes. Technically." ... "The men and women I grew up with...They've been dead for generations." OK, so maybe these people weren't her brothers and sisters, maybe she's talking about cousins, but it seems a bit cold to me. Perhaps that would be a natural adaptation to outliving so the people you grew up with, and many others you met along the way who aged and died while you kept rolling along, but it suggests that many wizards live somewhat dysfunctional lives by normal standards. Most of them must have a hard time getting close to others after they have been around for a while and gone through this cycle a couple of times.
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I understand their coldness towards vanilla blood family, but that's not what I meant. The OP question is about a positive death curse to transfer power to an ally. What I meant by "bloodlines" wasn't literal blood relations, but say from master to a former apprentice who's moral code is just like his or her master, and they being closer to the master than blood family ever could be. And so on down the generations, with mortal wizards becoming more powerful with every one.
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Your right, my post didn't address the OP at all, so this one will. Who would make this kind of life enhancing sacrifice, if it's possible to do so? It's not going to be the Merlin, I'm fairly confident in making that prediction. He might lay down a huge death curse to help Harry; though he would probably see it as helping the White Council. This is probably true of most of the important wizards on the Council. I think the only person who would make the kind of sacrifice you suggest is Ebenezer, because he has a personal family relationship with Harry. It might even be this type of closeness which would make such a thing possible.
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Your right, my post didn't address the OP at all, so this one will. Who would make this kind of life enhancing sacrifice, if it's possible to do so? It's not going to be the Merlin, I'm fairly confident in making that prediction. He might lay down a huge death curse to help Harry; though he would probably see it as helping the White Council. This is probably true of most of the important wizards on the Council. I think the only person who would make the kind of sacrifice you suggest is Ebenezer, because he has a personal family relationship with Harry. It might even be this type of closeness which would make such a thing possible.
This is what I was thinking as well. If any of this is possible I could see Ebenezer doing something like this in order to save Harry's life or give him another boost in power at a time when he needs it. Also you made me think of another question to ask but I will save that for a separate post.
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Yes, a death 'curse' could be used to do something good for somebody, if the Wizard wanted to do it. Harry actually contemplates that, in fact, in Fool Moon, when he thought he was about to be killed. One to the options he considered was using his death curse to cure MacFinn and break the loup garou curse on the bloodline.
I would call that a 'death blessing'.
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Yes, a death 'curse' could be used to do something good for somebody, if the Wizard wanted to do it. Harry actually contemplates that, in fact, in Fool Moon, when he thought he was about to be killed. One to the options he considered was using his death curse to cure MacFinn and break the loup garou curse on the bloodline.
I would call that a 'death blessing'.
Good catch, assuming Harry could have pulled it off.
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I wouldn't work too hard in trying to fit religious figures like Jesus into the Dresden Files. I'd suggest treat it as an anomaly, then we aren't discussing too touchy subjects and trying to fit real world religious thought into fictitious magical theory.
I wouldn't either. But Jesus has been confirmed to be a real figure in the Dresden Files, and Mab even mentioned his suffering on the cross in "Changes."
Even just based on what the Dresden Files say about the White Christ, I think it's fair to ask whether he had cast a Death Blessing or not.
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Good catch, assuming Harry could have pulled it off.
There's no way to know, but my guess is that Harry is strong enough to at least free MacFinn himself for the rest of his life, if not the overall bloodline. If Harry's spell could block the curse from drawing energy from the victims, then the curse would fade away even if it was too strong for Harry to directly erase.
Like JB said once, a Wizard's death curse/blessing is only as powerful as the Wizard's cleverness and imagination and magical skill.
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Maggie neutering Raith with her death curse is an interesting case, as she anchored the spell to her family line. As long as one of her descendants lives, he can't feed.
Would it be possible to put a different spin on that, and create a lasting, net positive effect anchored to a bloodline?
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Maggie neutering Raith with her death curse is an interesting case, as she anchored the spell to her family line. As long as one of her descendants lives, he can't feed.
We don't really know this, there was a bunch of guess work involved in it. Remember, she was no where near Thomas when she died. How does she have the ability to tie a spell like that to him without his agreement? Things like that are unclear. It seems likely she could have done something like that with her newborn son who was right there, though. The spell may very well have been linked to just Harry. Also, unbeknownst at the time, her father was still alive. If she could tie it to anyone related, maybe she tied it to him too? We don't really have proof of how that all worked, just guesswork.
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We don't really know this, there was a bunch of guess work involved in it. Remember, she was no where near Thomas when she died. How does she have the ability to tie a spell like that to him without his agreement? Things like that are unclear. It seems likely she could have done something like that with her newborn son who was right there, though. The spell may very well have been linked to just Harry. Also, unbeknownst at the time, her father was still alive. If she could tie it to anyone related, maybe she tied it to him too? We don't really have proof of how that all worked, just guesswork.
She share's Thomas's blood which is most likely how she designed the spell. No agreement is required. Curses used to kill people via their blood doesn't require permission. Sidhe need to strike deals with people, wizards do not. Well the guess work was done by both Lord Raith, and Harry Dresden. Could be wrong but between the two of them it's most likely accurate.