ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Rasins on March 02, 2018, 09:53:30 PM
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So, I'm listening to Cold Days, and Harry and Thomas are talking about how bad it's gotten with the Fomor.
He Thomas mentions that it's bad in cities without defenders, and he mentions Los Angeles. Rameriez is injured so he wasn't able to defend it.
We know the Fomor are taking those with power.
Since we didn't see or hear about Elaine in CD or SG, could the Fomor have taken her?
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Anything is possible. My opinion though is she's involved with some pretty bad ass people, and if not allied with the Fomor she's at least dangerous enough for them to leave her alone.
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How wild would it be if Elaine was a Grey Council member? For all we know, she was trained by Elder Gruff during her time in Summer. If Elder Gruff is a trusted Grey Council member, and he recommended Elaine to Eb, then she could have been at Chichen Itza as one of the wizards.
So, I'm listening to Cold Days, and Harry and Thomas are talking about how bad it's gotten with the Fomor.
He Thomas mentions that it's bad in cities without defenders, and he mentions Los Angeles. Rameriez is injured so he wasn't able to defend it.
We know the Fomor are taking those with power.
Since we didn't see or hear about Elaine in CD or SG, could the Fomor have taken her?
Seems unlikely to me. She's very efficient at staying out of trouble (assuming she's not Kumori). If she's making an active effort to stay ahead of the Council, she would constantly be vigilant. Not the kind of lifestyle that lends itself to her being caught off-guard by the Fomor.
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Anything is possible. My opinion though is she's involved with some pretty bad ass people, and if not allied with the Fomor she's at least dangerous enough for them to leave her alone.
Even if she's not actively working with them, I can totally see her selling Paranet member lists or something to be left alone. Elaine is very good at looking after herself.
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Even if she's not actively working with them, I can totally see her selling Paranet member lists or something to be left alone. Elaine is very good at looking after herself.
That seems harsh. She helped Harry numerous times in SK when doing so risked the wrath of a mad Lady, and she helped small time practitioners in WN that resulted in an empathy toward them that led her to helping found their organization.
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That seems harsh. She helped Harry numerous times in SK when doing so risked the wrath of a mad Lady, and she helped small time practitioners in WN that resulted in an empathy toward them that led her to helping found their organization.
Yea that's a bit evil, I've found her more just plain selfish in nature... Hidden evils? Maybe, but that still seems extreme for her character.
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That seems harsh. She helped Harry numerous times in SK when doing so risked the wrath of a mad Lady, and she helped small time practitioners in WN that resulted in an empathy toward them that led her to helping found their organization.
I wouldn't say 'numerous times' she helped once by deliberately using a shoddy paralysis spell, and once by holding the hedge open for him- neither of which can be reasonably traced to her.
And in WN she was involved because she was a potential target.
Rather than evil, I'd classify her as selfish/cowardly. She's willing to help, but only until she herself comes under fire- at which point she starts looking for people to throw under a bus in her place.
If the Formor approached her with a deal like "give us some names from these places and we'll leave you're town alone" I can see her taking it.
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by holding the hedge open for him- neither of which can be reasonably traced to her.
Lol? she choses to hold up a hedge and it can't be traced back to her own actions...?
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I wouldn't say 'numerous times' she helped once by deliberately using a shoddy paralysis spell, and once by holding the hedge open for him- neither of which can be reasonably traced to her.
And in WN she was involved because she was a potential target.
No, she was involved because she was hired to be, and it went from there. Remember, she's taken a leaf from Harry's book in advertising her magical services.
As for her being on the Grey Council, it's possible, but I doubt it. For one thing, she's made a long habit of avoiding the notice of and involvement with the White Council. The Grey Council is, at the end of the day, an extension of the White Council. It might be that not everyone in the Grey Council are official members of the White Council, but I'd bet the majority are, and she'd be hanging out very close to people who are at the heart of the Council.
Which is not to say she doesn't know some people on it (besides Harry) or hhasn't worked with them at some point.
Rather than evil, I'd classify her as selfish/cowardly. She's willing to help, but only until she herself comes under fire- at which point she starts looking for people to throw under a bus in her place.
That's too harsh, based on what we've seen. The first betrayal of Harry was, apparently, the result of mind control, and she ran to Summer and made deals there. Harry was captured by the Wardens and ended up with Ebenezar. In that respect, Harry was luckier, though it probably didn't look that way at the time. Events could have gone differently.
Elaine betrayed Harry to Aurora...but then betrayed Aurora to Harry, and that's risky. She kept faith throughout White Night, when it would have been easy to run, too.
It could be, of course, that everything we've seen is an act or a cover, and behind the scenes Elaine is the Big Bad or working for them knowingly. But there's no evidence for that.
My 'take' on Elaine is that she's borderline. She's scared to death, psychically scarred by Justin, and trying hard to decide who she and what she wants to be. Also, and I think this would shock Harry to his core...I think she's trying to live up to Harry's moral example. She's seen what he made of his life after Justin's betrayal, and I think she's impressed on some level. She does seem to be patterning herself after him in some ways.
Harry thinks of himself as a shady kind of guy, trying to do his best but deeply distrusting himself. On some level, he tries to live up to Michael Carpenter's expectations, I think. It's probably just as well, for him, that he doesn't realize that several people he knows consider him someone setting a standard they try to live up to.
If the Formor approached her with a deal like "give us some names from these places and we'll leave you're town alone" I can see her taking it.
So can I. I can also see her frying the Fomor to a crisp it its own grease, too. She's that close to the borderline and could end up going either way.
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Lol? she choses to hold up a hedge and it can't be traced back to her own actions...?
Well yes, because the only one that knows she dod it was Harry.
So either A) Harry pulls a miracle out his butt and kills Aurora and she's in the clear or B) Aurora kills Harry, the only one that knows she helped, and she's in the clear.
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I wouldn't say 'numerous times' she helped once by deliberately using a shoddy paralysis spell, and once by holding the hedge open for him- neither of which can be reasonably traced to her.
And in WN she was involved because she was a potential target.
Rather than evil, I'd classify her as selfish/cowardly. She's willing to help, but only until she herself comes under fire- at which point she starts looking for people to throw under a bus in her place.
If the Formor approached her with a deal like "give us some names from these places and we'll leave you're town alone" I can see her taking it.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. She left the vulnerability in the spell she used, made sure to tell Harry so he wouldn't miss it, didn't attack at the battle, and helped him enter the hedge. She betrayed a Sidhe she was in debt to in order to help him twice, either of which would have gotten her killed if Aurora had survived.
Sure, she lied, and endangered Harry and the world by helping Aurora, but we've seen how a debt owed to the Sidhe can be dangerous. Harry owed Mab three favors, but she could puppet him, make him hurt himself, and get what she wanted even when he wanted to refuse. Elaine had built up years of debt, so there's no reason to believe she could refuse without getting herself killed.
She effectively did the same thing Harry does. She grins and bears it while she has to, but doesn't hurt a loved one, and does the right thing in the end.
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I'm not sure what you're talking about. She left the vulnerability in the spell she used, made sure to tell Harry so he wouldn't miss it, didn't attack at the battle, and helped him enter the hedge. She betrayed a Sidhe she was in debt to in order to help him twice, either of which would have gotten her killed if Aurora had survived.
Sure, she lied, and endangered Harry and the world by helping Aurora, but we've seen how a debt owed to the Sidhe can be dangerous. Harry owed Mab three favors, but she could puppet him, make him hurt himself, and get what she wanted even when he wanted to refuse. Elaine had built up years of debt, so there's no reason to believe she could refuse without getting herself killed.
She effectively did the same thing Harry does. She grins and bears it while she has to, but doesn't hurt a loved one, and does the right thing in the end.
Perhaps.... I still think she could be a deep cover enemy... She helps Harry short term but it's for a longer term goal that isn't good.
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Perhaps.... I still think she could be a deep cover enemy... She helps Harry short term but it's for a longer term goal that isn't good.
I agree. I still think it's a fifty-fifty shot she's Kumori. She could be a reluctant thrall, or a misguided recruit, or a willing participant, or a sinister mastermind. I'm not saying she's *good*.
I'm just saying her actions, as Elaine, have not been overtly selfish and cold-hearted. She might be both those things, but she hasn't appeared like that.
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I agree. I still think it's a fifty-fifty shot she's Kumori. She could be a reluctant thrall, or a misguided recruit, or a willing participant, or a sinister mastermind. I'm not saying she's *good*.
I'm just saying her actions, as Elaine, have not been overtly selfish and cold-hearted. She might be both those things, but she hasn't appeared like that.
Do you consider it strange from a writers point of view that such a significant person from Harry's past has played such a small role in the series? It's his first love who he thought he'd killed who comes back and then....... gone? It's odd to me. Word had to have made the rounds that Dresden had been killed, and then even more waves must have been made upon his return. She never even dropped by to see if the rumors were true.
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Do you consider it strange from a writers point of view that such a significant person from Harry's past has played such a small role in the series? It's his first love who he thought he'd killed who comes back and then....... gone? It's odd to me. Word had to have made the rounds that Dresden had been killed, and then even more waves must have been made upon his return. She never even dropped by to see if the rumors were true.
Not particularly. She's got to stay away because the Council might get suspicious if a "worked together once" acquaintance dropped everything twice to come to Chicago for a guy she "barely knows". Especially since there was never a big funeral or a welcome back party (other than Mab's).
And remember, they knew each other for maybe four years, and that was 22 years ago (or so) for them. They've seen each other a handful of times since then, and maybe talked on the phone about the Paranet once or twice.
Combine their distant relationship, awkward history, and prying eyes, and there's plenty of reason for her to stay away.
But she'll be back.
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Elaine is trying to stay as low-profile and under-the-radar as possible; that is really hard to do if you are hanging around someone as infamous as Harry. Besides, her feelings for Harry are more like a memory of what was and not anything that she is currently feeling.
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Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think that Elaine is Somewhere Between Good and Neutral on the scale of Good and Evil. Most of her actions that may be viewed negatively feel like the result of being betrayed by pretty much everyone she's ever met, except Harry. It's enough to make anyone twitchy and distrusting. Most of the things Elaine does seem like part of an ongoing effort to cobble together some kind of life for herself after the devastation Justin left behind.
Plus, you know—mind control. Murphy spent years after Grave Peril totally screwed up, and that was a single attack; she'd never been turned into a thrall. What happened to Elaine may have been significantly worse, and the damage might be permanent. I'd imagine it's something like picking up several phobias, neuroses, and tics all at once.
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Maybe I'm in the minority, but I think that Elaine is Somewhere Between Good and Neutral on the scale of Good and Evil. Most of her actions that may be viewed negatively feel like the result of being betrayed by pretty much everyone she's ever met, except Harry. It's enough to make anyone twitchy and distrusting. Most of the things Elaine does seem like part of an ongoing effort to cobble together some kind of life for herself after the devastation Justin left behind.
Most of this would perfectly apply to Harry as well.
Plus, you know—mind control. Murphy spent years after Grave Peril totally screwed up, and that was a single attack; she'd never been turned into a thrall. What happened to Elaine may have been significantly worse, and the damage might be permanent. I'd imagine it's something like picking up several phobias, neuroses, and tics all at once.
What's more, she was (presumably) betrayed by her adoptive father at a particularly formative age; that alone makes it potentially quite a bit more damaging that what Murphy faced.
For better or worse, there really are only two camps when if comes to Elaine: Either you believe her initial assertion that she was not complicit with Justin's attack on Harry, at which point everything that follows can make perfect sense given her trauma, trust-issues, and stated life-goals. Or you think she was a willing accomplice with Justin's Black Magic, and what little we've seen her say and do since then is all potentially just part of a Long Con and is 100% lies and manipulation.
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there really are only two camps when if comes to Elaine:
Nothing about her originally being a victim precludes her continuity as a villainous fiend. Personally I find her original trauma to be entirely that, trauma... She has since been practically raised by the Sidhe since then, and one that went off kilter at that. I find her a great and intentionally ambiguous character. Whom I do find to be cowardly/selfish. It's Not really her prime personality, but deep inside she's still that scared little girl and the defense mechanisms it relies on are very base instinctive things. You see it come out of her quite a few times... and most any time she's directly rose above it she took the edge from Harry's lead.(in SK with the thorns, him pleading mercy when captured and VS Pricilla's psychic attack.)
She's damaged inside, and well written for it imo.
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Elaine is trying to stay as low-profile and under-the-radar as possible; that is really hard to do if you are hanging around someone as infamous as Harry. Besides, her feelings for Harry are more like a memory of what was and not anything that she is currently feeling.
The first is true. We can't be sure about the second without violating the Third Law.
We don't really know exactly what's in Elaine's head, or heart, with regard to Harry.
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Most of this would perfectly apply to Harry as well.
What's more, she was (presumably) betrayed by her adoptive father at a particularly formative age; that alone makes it potentially quite a bit more damaging that what Murphy faced.
For better or worse, there really are only two camps when if comes to Elaine: Either you believe her initial assertion that she was not complicit with Justin's attack on Harry, at which point everything that follows can make perfect sense given her trauma, trust-issues, and stated life-goals. Or you think she was a willing accomplice with Justin's Black Magic, and what little we've seen her say and do since then is all potentially just part of a Long Con and is 100% lies and manipulation.
There's a third reasonable position, which is "Insufficient data". For some, the jury is still deliberating and waiting for more testimony.
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There has been two present-time appearances of Elaine as Elaine, discounting flashback memories and Elaine=Kumori theory. So more data really is necessary. First appearance was surprise twist, second time was a coincidence of commonality, third time will set the pattern of her relationship with Harry.
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Elaine's concern for the members of the Ordo convinces me she wouldn't sell out members of the paranet to the Fomor. She was definitely hiding something from Harry in White Night; specifically dealing with her healing ability, but that isn't enough to prove she is Kumori. That incident could be a red herring or it could be about something else besides Kumori.
I could see Elaine become a militant defender of the paranet. (I've said this before.) I won't be surprised if she turns up in Peace Talks, though not as a participant in the talks. I don't see Elaine being happy if the White Council and the Fomor are all set to make nice if the lesser magical talents aren't guaranteed protection by the Council. She has enough individual power, and with an intelligence network at her command; Harry and Carlos will be occupied with their duties and Butters may be out and about doing KotC stuff, she could do things to disrupt the talks. At least before everyone gets locked into a presumably safe meeting place she might find ways to make accidents happen and possibly set different factions against each other. Elaine knows the type of wards Harry uses and because she has mislead Warden Ramirez about her abilities, she may have made a study of his magic too. This means she might turn up in unexpected places. Of course this is a big WAG, but if Jim wants to do something dramatic with Elaine, now might be a good time for that to occur.
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Due to the mid-series trilogy, there are alot of characters that haven't been played with in a while. Elaine is one of them.
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Do you consider it strange from a writers point of view that such a significant person from Harry's past has played such a small role in the series? It's his first love who he thought he'd killed who comes back and then....... gone? It's odd to me. Word had to have made the rounds that Dresden had been killed, and then even more waves must have been made upon his return. She never even dropped by to see if the rumors were true.
Maybe she didn't need to. She probably has plenty of contacts among the Fae.
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Maybe she didn't need to. She probably has plenty of contacts among the Fae.
Plus, Harry was incommunicado for more than a year when he was stuck on Demonreach and he had only been in town for one day before that when settled matters with Maeve. So it's not like Elaine could have dropped in on Harry any time before the end of Skin Game. The most she could have done is contact Murphy or Butters through the paranet and asked them if it was true that Harry was back from the dead. This is one of the reasons why it might be a good time for Elaine to make an appearance.
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Plus, Harry was incommunicado for more than a year when he was stuck on Demonreach and he had only been in town for one day before that when settled matters with Maeve. So it's not like Elaine could have dropped in on Harry any time before the end of Skin Game. The most she could have done is contact Murphy or Butters through the paranet and asked them if it was true that Harry was back from the dead. This is one of the reasons why it might be a good time for Elaine to make an appearance.
And for Elaine to be exposed as Cowl's apprentice Kumori....bawahaha!
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And for Elaine to be exposed as Cowl's apprentice Kumori....bawahaha!
(https://media.giphy.com/media/S3Ot3hZ5bcy8o/giphy.gif)
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Isn't the described height of Kumoro and Elaine very different?
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Isn't the described height of Kumoro and Elaine very different?
Nope.
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/S3Ot3hZ5bcy8o/giphy.gif)
Thank you groinkick. Love me some Jack Nicholson.
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Isn't the described height of Kumoro and Elaine very different?
No, but there is a WOJ shooting down the old "Murphy=Kumori" theory on those grounds, thats likely what your thinking of.
(PS--Murphy can't be Kumori, obviously. Kumori is a powerful and dangerous necromancer with the personal will to hold a knife to a wizard's throat. And more to the point, she was TALL ENOUGH to do it. If she was 5' 0" Murphy, she'd have had to be wearing freaking STILTS to hold a knife at 6' 7" Harry's throat from behind. To say nothing of the fact that Harry has touched Murphy's skin on multiple occasions and never picked up a ripple of /any/ of the aura of a practitioner, much less the utterly obvious one of a fellow heavyweight. I try to follow my own rules, guys. :) )