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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Yuillegan on February 08, 2018, 06:54:37 AM
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Hi gang it has been too long! I must admit that I mostly come here for news of the latest book but I do enjoy the WAGs!
For those who may have watched Netflix's latest blockbuster binge-fest, Altered Carbon you might have noticed some similarities. A big, angry brooding hero that everybody knows and somewhat fears, who is constantly fighting for his life against something bigger and more mysterious than himself with sexy naked people throwing themselves at him - ring any bells? There is even a feisty cop (who is very attractive) and an excellent fighter who is a love interest, and hates him and keeps thinking he is one of the bad guys. She is a great Murphy/Susan combination. The lead (while a lot less quippy and admittedly nerdy) is still a big, brooding thinking who is also great at taking on the world (with a massive oversized pistol), he is very insouciant to people he dislikes (especially if they are powerful) and he has a dark past. He even has a mouthy (horny?) assistant in his AI hotel Po (quite like Bob, he is very powerful but beholden to his master and cannot leave a certain area - not only that he is extremely knowledgeable).
The sci-fi setting is just as crazy and wild as the dresdenverse, the villains as devilish and the violence as incredible and visceral. And there is lots of sex and nudity (IT REALLY DOES SELL!) For great examples look at Westworld, Sense8, GoT
My point is - I think if Altered Carbon could be pitched, sold and made as successful as it is fast becoming then I believe the Dresden Files would be just as good, if not better.
It would require a really excellent team to execute it well, with good timing so it did not compete with any other big action fest. I also think the format would have to become a bit more cliffhanger-like for people to get really hooked. I doubt a book a season would actually work, so probably a few books per season might have to happen. My personal peeve is when people create monsters and characters for no good reason, when perfectly good examples already existed in the fiction. It can't become a monster of the week or buddy cop (like Lucifer) - it needs to remain a mystery-noir action fest - rather like Altered Carbon. I also think the monologue/soliloquies would be a great staple too.
All in all, what would you all like to see - and how could we make this happen? Genuine thoughts here guys - look at what vocal fanbases have achieved in the past.
Any other examples of what shows could be used as a great basis for DF? Anything I have left out?
Cheers
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they can make a Dresden series but i dont think they realy make a Dresden series. lot of Netflix series immediately start psychology and angst as main topics with not enough action to show depth of main character as the bad ass hero. and dresden files needs its constant action and witty banter to keep plot going as lot of times its like 24 series where harry is against the clock to beat the bad guys. so we dont have time to delve harry's 13 year old trauma for half a season before ending simple day worth of action.
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I'd love Netflix to pick it up. I'd rather HBO. They seem to do bigger budgets, but either would do.
And I agree about the casting/parts. I saw a LOT of parallels.
I think we've discussed on the boards a good way to break down the series into seasons. Something like The first two books into one season. Then the third as it's own, then it gets messy. LOL
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Thanks for this mention. I just started watching the series. Two episodes down.
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I'd love Netflix to pick it up. I'd rather HBO. They seem to do bigger budgets, but either would do.
And I agree about the casting/parts. I saw a LOT of parallels.
I think we've discussed on the boards a good way to break down the series into seasons. Something like The first two books into one season. Then the third as it's own, then it gets messy. LOL
Bigger budgets would be better. I'd still be happy with either. However, there are definitely some hurdles to getting it right.
Chronologically, it makes the most sense to do one season per book, since most of the books are a year-ish apart from one another. The problem with that is that it stretches some of the books out longer than would be viable for a series. Can you imagine Storm Front dissected into twelfths? A lot of stuff would need to be added for padding.
The alternative would be to condense multiple books into each season. The problem there is the giant gap between the events of each book mentioned previously.
A possible solution for the seasons that would otherwise be light on content would be to throw in the stuff from the Short Stories and Graphic Novels. For instance, make Storm Front into a season, but throw in things like flashbacks to a Restoration of Faith and Welcome to the Jungle.
The biggest transition from pages to screen would be the narration. You would to translate the vast amounts of non-event, non-interaction, non-dialogue content to the viewer. In the books, so much information is directly narrated to the reader about how spells work, the nature of the supernatural players, relationships of previously met characters, etc. How do you convey all that without just making info dumps on the viewer and throwing flashbacks at them willy nilly? Or do you convey it? Maybe it's better to leave more of it unsaid.
Much as I'd love to see the Dresden Files, a Netflix Original Series, or similar, I'm skeptical of them taking the time to do it right.
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The major problem with CGI is organics. Spaceships, buildings, cars, armor suits, weapons and full-time bodied costumes are great. But anything requiring organic material, be it skin, faces, animals, or plants, and it looks fake.
AC and other sci-fi shows can get away with no organic CGI, but I don't know that Dresden could. Especially on a limited budget. There's so much in Dresden that would require quality CGI or quality costuming with CGI features that it might be cost-prohibitive.
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I would be ecstatic if Netflix picked it up. Two things: stay with source material as much as possible and don't add or alter characters to fit some demographic.
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I would be ecstatic if Netflix picked it up. Two things: stay with source material as much as possible and don't add or alter characters to fit some demographic.
I honestly don't know the original material of any of their properties well enough to know if they stuck to it or not.
What about that urban fantasy movie they just did. Did anyone watch it? Was the CGI/makeup good enough for what we'd want for Dresden?
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lot of Netflix series immediately start psychology and angst as main topics with not enough action to show depth of main character as the bad ass hero. and dresden files needs its constant action and witty banter to keep plot going as lot of times its like 24 series where harry is against the clock to beat the bad guys. so we dont have time to delve harry's 13 year old trauma for half a season before ending simple day worth of action.
I understand your concern...however Dresden Files actually does have a lot of psychology, and does spend a fair amount of time on his childhood past. I agree that they would have to be careful; rarely does the pacing and lines in books translate well into screen and stage. That is why so many changes happen to the source material and yet I think the best remakes tend to not stray far - but when they do they make appropriate and clever choices about what works and what does not. I think it would be worth having Jim as a consultant, maybe even a writer time to time (like George RR Martin).
Bigger budgets would be better. I'd still be happy with either. However, there are definitely some hurdles to getting it right.
Chronologically, it makes the most sense to do one season per book, since most of the books are a year-ish apart from one another. The problem with that is that it stretches some of the books out longer than would be viable for a series. Can you imagine Storm Front dissected into twelfths? A lot of stuff would need to be added for padding.
The alternative would be to condense multiple books into each season. The problem there is the giant gap between the events of each book mentioned previously.
A possible solution for the seasons that would otherwise be light on content would be to throw in the stuff from the Short Stories and Graphic Novels. For instance, make Storm Front into a season, but throw in things like flashbacks to a Restoration of Faith and Welcome to the Jungle.
The biggest transition from pages to screen would be the narration. You would to translate the vast amounts of non-event, non-interaction, non-dialogue content to the viewer. In the books, so much information is directly narrated to the reader about how spells work, the nature of the supernatural players, relationships of previously met characters, etc. How do you convey all that without just making info dumps on the viewer and throwing flashbacks at them willy nilly? Or do you convey it? Maybe it's better to leave more of it unsaid.
Much as I'd love to see the Dresden Files, a Netflix Original Series, or similar, I'm skeptical of them taking the time to do it right.
I think unfortunately due to the sheer amount of content and the way episodes work these days some people and events would have to be amalgamated. I hope not too much, but it would take someone much more experienced and clever to figure that out. I think 2 books a season is fine... but most shows barely have 3 seasons before people start losing interest (and risk losing budgets) I think you would have to trim the fat and end up almost with 3 a season (works out to about 6-7 seasons and a movie trilogy for the BAT?) Even GoT is only in up to it's 8th and final season - and while it has grown its budget it admittedly isn't the groundbreaking show it started out as.
The info dumps would be tricky - but some shows handle that better than others. I am skeptical too but I have hope that it could really work.
The major problem with CGI is organics. Spaceships, buildings, cars, armor suits, weapons and full-time bodied costumes are great. But anything requiring organic material, be it skin, faces, animals, or plants, and it looks fake.
AC and other sci-fi shows can get away with no organic CGI, but I don't know that Dresden could. Especially on a limited budget. There's so much in Dresden that would require quality CGI or quality costuming with CGI features that it might be cost-prohibitive.
I absolutely agree. It never ages well either - more prosthetics, less CGI is always better (just ask George Lucas!). Perhaps an interaction with WETA would be required.
The hardest thing of all, as was found in the original attempt, is actually the magic. Harry cuts loose all the time, but even in Star Wars, Harry Potter and the LOTR etc they even have limits on how often they throw magic around. Probably a clever workaround would be more physical fights, and maybe some Heroes-esque CGI. I am not the biggest fan of that, but they did manage to show a lot of powers each episode.
What Urban Fantasy movie?
Also I think DF ticks enough demographics, I think they would be fine.
I really do think however we as fans need to become more vocal - it won't happen without a push, and it certainly won't get the budget it needs without a big vocal message. Realistically, GoT was quite niche but amongst fanbases they were quite large. And we are not. So we really would have to make a lot of noise.
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What Urban Fantasy movie?
Netflix did a uf movie in the last month or two called Bright starring Will Smith. Critics hated it, but the public seemed to like it. I haven't had time to watch it yet.
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I don't know if Bright is based on a book, but the movie didn't do too bad with the CGI and effects. And there were some subtle ones that if you weren't looking for them, you'd miss them. Like the Dragon and the Centaurs.
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I thought Bright was a good buddy cops movie with a UF twist. Effects were decent enough.
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most shows barely have 3 seasons before people start losing interest (and risk losing budgets)
I agree to a point. But I differ on some things. Mainly the budget part. I have pitched a UF series to Netflix and Amazon about 2 years ago. Went as far as the presentation package, but it didn't/hasn't panned out.
But Netflix was my first choice because of budget and audience collection.
I read and then was told that once Netflix commits to an original series, they really commit.
Networks have to pay for their content with commercials, so then those sponsors have a say in what gets aired.
Netflix is all in house. They pay for their own stuff. There are a few FX houses and movie making resources that get contracted out, but Netflix foots 100% of the bill.
I LOVE THAT! They aren't beholden to any firm or brand. I was told (also you can tell) that some of their series took seasons before they found their audience, before any real interest or attention was given.
Netflix has ALL the money they saved during their DVD days, and then streaming, before they broke into making their own content.
If they chose DF as a series, they could make 2-3 or even 4 seasons and wait patiently on the viewers to come to them.
On the other hand Fox cancelled Firefly in a half a season, and Drive in 2 episodes.
DF home should be Netflix hands down.
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I finished altered carbon, which show does a decent parallel to dresden files and or has time travel.
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Netflix did a uf movie in the last month or two called Bright starring Will Smith. Critics hated it, but the public seemed to like it. I haven't had time to watch it yet.
Yeah it wasn't I suppose good cinema, but it was fun and they landed the cgi and fantasy/modern mash up. Biggest issue I think was the heavy-handed allegories and messages, and some of the pacing. Will Smith also just annoys me in general these days, but that's on me.
I was told (also you can tell) that some of their series took seasons before they found their audience, before any real interest or attention was given.
Netflix has ALL the money they saved during their DVD days, and then streaming, before they broke into making their own content.
If they chose DF as a series, they could make 2-3 or even 4 seasons and wait patiently on the viewers to come to them.
On the other hand Fox cancelled Firefly in a half a season, and Drive in 2 episodes.
DF home should be Netflix hands down.
But an example of them cancelling a popular high-budget sci-fi/mystery show was Sense8. Hard to know what the viewer numbers were like (as Netflix guards them strongly) but based on the size of the fanbase - it came down to the fact they wanted more money to dish around (unless you believe the conspiracy theories around Netflix's new corporate direction is to be more family friendly - I point to Altered Carbon to dispute that claim). Don't get me wrong, few other networks could do DF right - maybe Amazon or Starz, at a pinch HBO - but I think I would rather them streamline it a little while maintaining the core of the DF rather than losing the series half-way.
I finished altered carbon, which show does a decent parallel to dresden files and or has time travel.
Indeed, but they did close off the ending a bit abruptly (new lead actor, bold but dangerous) and the main murder mystery tends to get in the way of all the other interesting mysteries - I really didn't care much about who or why Laurens Bancroft was killed in the end, I mostly was more interested in the Envoys, AI and dark stuff in the background. And the vague alien references.
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By the end of the season 1, I was pretty much done with the series. Too much violence, violence against kids, women, men, nudity, sexual violence, blood, murders, etc. I'm glad it wrapped up and probably won't follow it much more.
I was wondering about another good show I should watch that has time travel and/or that is similar in appeal to Dresden Files. I watched Continuum and damn was that a great series.
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By the end of the season 1, I was pretty much done with the series. Too much violence, violence against kids, women, men, nudity, sexual violence, blood, murders, etc. I'm glad it wrapped up and probably won't follow it much more.
I was wondering about another good show I should watch that has time travel and/or that is similar in appeal to Dresden Files. I watched Continuum and damn was that a great series.
Have you watched Travelers on Netflix?
But an example of them cancelling a popular high-budget sci-fi/mystery show was Sense8. Hard to know what the viewer numbers were like (as Netflix guards them strongly) but based on the size of the fanbase - it came down to the fact they wanted more money to dish around (unless you believe the conspiracy theories around Netflix's new corporate direction is to be more family friendly - I point to Altered Carbon to dispute that claim). Don't get me wrong, few other networks could do DF right - maybe Amazon or Starz, at a pinch HBO - but I think I would rather them streamline it a little while maintaining the core of the DF rather than losing the series half-way.
Indeed, but they did close off the ending a bit abruptly (new lead actor, bold but dangerous) and the main murder mystery tends to get in the way of all the other interesting mysteries - I really didn't care much about who or why Laurens Bancroft was killed in the end, I mostly was more interested in the Envoys, AI and dark stuff in the background. And the vague alien references.
The only IRL reviews I heard for S8 all said it started bad but got better. My guess is that there was a decent fanbase that stuck through the rough beginning, but not enough to justify the budget. (No idea myself, I haven't watched it and don't know anything about the quality/cost)
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As I understand it Sens8 got canned because it had a disproportionately huge budget because it needed to be filmed in multiple exotic locations. Any show that can get away with Soundstage & Green-screen is going to have a leg up.
I see it as similar network math as what killed Almost Human: it had all the same costs of the Procedural Cop Shows it was competing against, but on top of that it also needed a budget for both practical and CGI effects.
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I did not know about Netflix doing it 100%. That makes sense, since they are a subscription service rather than beholden to sponsors. I like that.
But then isn't HBO, Starz, Showtime, and Hulu the same way? (I really don't know).
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I did not know about Netflix doing it 100%. That makes sense, since they are a subscription service rather than beholden to sponsors. I like that.
But then isn't HBO, Starz, Showtime, and Hulu the same way? (I really don't know).
HBO and Starz yes, Hulu...sometimes? You have to pay extra to opt out of their advertising, but at the end of the day they are a distributor of others' contents a lot more than they are an original maker, so they still need to keep their Network Partners happy. Especially since their business model is more dependent on their partnerships to air current seasons of Network TV
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I did not know about Netflix doing it 100%. That makes sense, since they are a subscription service rather than beholden to sponsors. I like that.
But then isn't HBO, Starz, Showtime, and Hulu the same way? (I really don't know).
Sort of. HBO, Starz, and Showtime aren't beholden to advertisers, but their business model is different; they string out content across several months to make sure people stay subscribed. I know people who subscribe to HBO during Game of Thrones, then cancel it.
For a long time, those subscriptions HAD to be bundled with a cable provider. Those premium cable packages were far, far and away more expensive than what many are willing to pay. In the past couple of years, HBO got smart and offered their separate, HBO Go app that doesn't require a movie package, which is cool, though if you DO have a premium package, that's included in your subscription (which I like). Cord cutting is hitting the premium channels hardest.
Netflix's business model is focused entirely on bombarding their users with so much content that it becomes an essential part of their life. Do you know how frustrating it is to see an episode of a show after it's been on for a season or two, and not be able to go back to the beginning and watch it start to finish? I don't know about anyone else, but I don't watch shows piecemeal; I start at the start, and finish at the finish. If I see something I like, I go back to the start and catch up. Channels like Adult Swim or FX don't have their entire catalog available for viewing whenever you want; you have to wait a few months for the missing episodes to show up in circulation. For example, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia may have a total of ten episodes from random seasons available on demand. If you want to see the others, you have to buy the DVD/digital copy, pirate it, or, if you're lucky enough for it to be available, watch it on Netflix. Netflix decided to change the rules about limiting available content; they just made it all available, all the time. Because they don't care if it takes you two days or two months to watch a series; they want your eyeballs on their service for X-number of hours.
Hulu is partially ad-funded. You can buy an ad-free subscription, or an ad-supported one for less (I think there's a free option, but I don't remember; I just bought the ad-free one). They're interested in targeting ads appropriately, which requires gathering metrics on viewership on a week-to-week basis, so they don't always drop an entire season at once like Netflix does. Plus their video player sucks; I always have trouble streaming 4K or even 1080P from them (whenever THAT'S available, which is rarely) without constant interruptions, and that's on devices connected by a hard line. Way, way too heavy of a player. I never seem to have trouble with Netflix; it just works, perfectly, almost every time (browser crashes occasionally, but that's to be expected).
Anyway, Netflix's goal is to keep people subscribed by keeping people invested in their catalog, not what's coming next week. They know that you'll stay subscribed between releases of Jessica Jones and Daredevil because they also have the entire series of Supernatural ready to stream.
HBO is in big, big trouble in a couple of years. Game of Thrones ends in 2019, and they don't have much to keep people coming back, aside from Westworld (maybe a third season of True Detective, if that ever happens), and that's not nearly as popular. I don't think they smartened up after True Blood ended. They used to have a solid release schedule, with good stuff coming out as seasons ended. Now everyone just waits for the one show anyone cares about. When GoT ends, nobody is going to want to watch the inevitable twelve spinoffs they try to launch, though people will try to act excited. See Better Call Saul, which is just as good as Breaking Bad, but has a fraction of the audience.
Sorry, this was like a weird tangent, but I think about TV and subscription services a lot.
On topic, I think Netflix is the perfect company to produce and distribute a Dresden show. I don't know about anyone else's experience with Dresden, but when I discovered it (funnily enough, because the terrible show was on Netflix; believe it or not, I saw potential after the pilot, found out it was a book series, and bought Storm Front that night), I binge-read the series in a week. This was in... 2009? It was before Changes. I find that Dresden books read really, really well in a single sitting, if you can manage it. Storm Front is way better if you read it all at once than split over a few sessions.
Anyway, because I believe strongly that any adaptation should stick to the source material, I think that Netflix is the right place because the plots play better when they're binged. I've mentioned in other threads that Netflix did an outstanding job with A Series of Unfortunate Events thus far (along with the cast; Nathan Fillion is going to be in the next season, so how bad could it be?). I'm giving Netflix a big portion of the credit for that, because network executives have a habit of screwing good stories. They really know how to get out of the way of the people who know what they're doing, and provide more than enough support for the production teams to do what they do best.
If the showrunners of an adaptation are fans, and Netflix stays out of their way, and they get a good enough cast, then the show could be perfect.
Meanwhile, someone needs to get a Peter Jackson type to adapt the Codex Alera as movies, because Hollywood needs new high fantasy.
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Meanwhile, someone needs to get a Peter Jackson type to adapt the Codex Alera as movies, because Hollywood needs new high fantasy.
I would love that, and I could not agree more.
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I would love that, and I could not agree more.
They tried to replicate the success of LoTR with Narnia, but ran into trouble with the aging cast and the character turnover rate between installments—not all the characters are in each, which left viewers unfamiliar with the source material confused. The Hobbit trilogy was fun, but totally overdone and stretched out like butter spread over too much bread, to quote Bilbo.
And really, it's tailor-made for a feature adaptation. The first installment can use a relative no-name cast; the budget requirements are relatively small; locations are almost entirely remote, forest settings; set requirements are minimal (you need The Princeps Memoriam, a few bedrooms, a Grand Hall for Bernardholdt, and a stereotypical Castle Courtyard for Second Calderon); effects are few—the biggest struggle is that their firecrafters are taken down, so all the effects are wind (cheap), water (kinda CG-heavy, but not bad), and earth (for Brutus); there's never any shortage of extras to play A Horde of Bad Guys; you only need firm, franchise casting for a handful of roles, etc. It could be made for a bargain when matched against Cape movies, and, if successful, can lead to a six-entry franchise. Hell, Jim even did the work of splitting the last entry into two (I consider Princeps and First Lord to be the same story; there's no real pause in the narrative) which Hollywood loves to do.
Really, Furies of Calderon is a proof-of-concept movie that could be made just to show that it can be profitable, because the expenses won't start piling up until Academ's Fury, when you need to start CGing all those Canim. Even that one is pretty light, because there are only a few at any time, and the pitched battle scene is a cave with human combatants, again, with limited special effects. So, it'd be like an extended CG test.
Anyway, I want these movies badly, and I doubt I'll ever get them, but that won't stop me from griping constantly while Hollywood doubles down on capes and remakes.
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I would love that, and I could not agree more.
I am just finishing up a reread of Codex Alera. I think that it actually breaks up better for a tv series than the Dresden Files (besides the money needed for special effects). Between all the battles and twists/turns there are plenty of spots to end an episode/season. As Kindler said, the first few are relatively cheap to do. Expenses won't start piling up until Cursor's Fury when you have large scale battles involving the Canim.
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I agree that Codex Alera would make a great high-fantasy on screen, but at this point I hope it falls into the new wave of TV/miniseries adaptations that get more total screen time.
Also, since Im already a fan, so Id far rather them have a moderate but functional CGI budget and more screen-time to tell the story over the unlimited budgets of big blockbusters with a 2-3 hour run-time limitation.
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Well, let's not forget the battle against the Marat in Furies. And all their Challa. Not impossible, but adds to the budget.
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And really, it's tailor-made for a feature adaptation. The first installment can use a relative no-name cast; the budget requirements are relatively small; locations are almost entirely remote, forest settings; set requirements are minimal (you need The Princeps Memoriam, a few bedrooms, a Grand Hall for Bernardholdt, and a stereotypical Castle Courtyard for Second Calderon)
There are only a few casting issues. Number one, Tavi is very small for his age until Cursor's Fury and Captain's Fury when he rapidly catches up and fills in. You might need two actors for Tavi. Second, Kitai can be mistaken for a boy when Tavi first meets her, but by Cursor's Fury/Captain's Fury she is described as an exotic beauty. Once again, two actress might be needed, but the same actress could potentially play Kitai and the Vord Queen. Third, there are distinct skin colorations for the different regions. Marat are pale, Countess Amara is described as having golden skin, another region is described as having swarthy skin etc. I personally not be opposed if some of those regional differences are discarded (except perhaps the Marat), but it might upset others.
With regards to Furies of Calderon sets, like Kindler mentioned, they are pretty generic for the most part. Steadholdts are interchangeable, mercenary camp, Marat camp, generic Castle (just have to make sure that this is consistent across all the seasons). The biggest expense will be the Wax forest and the Wax spiders. Even that can be mitigated though by creating one medium set and showing it at different angles to simulate different parts of the forest. The single biggest expense of the first book would be the Marat horde with all their animals.
My biggest fear about a Codex Alera series would be that they would try to save money and cut costs by cutting/limiting the battles. If we are going to get a this series made into a show I want a commitment to show all the battles in all their glory.
One thought I had: if this would get made into a show, maybe they could convince Jim to write a few short stories that flesh out some of the event surrounding First Calderon, the romance between Isana and Septimus, and the death of Septimus. Heck maybe even a little more backstory for Fidelias (what transpired between Academ's and Cursor's Fury) would be welcome. These things are touched on in the book series, but could be slightly expanded and used to pace/fill in the show.
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There are only a few casting issues. Number one, Tavi is very small for his age until Cursor's Fury and Captain's Fury when he rapidly catches up and fills in. You might need two actors for Tavi. Second, Kitai can be mistaken for a boy when Tavi first meets her, but by Cursor's Fury/Captain's Fury she is described as an exotic beauty. Once again, two actress might be needed, but the same actress could potentially play Kitai and the Vord Queen. Third, there are distinct skin colorations for the different regions. Marat are pale, Countess Amara is described as having golden skin, another region is described as having swarthy skin etc. I personally not be opposed if some of those regional differences are discarded (except perhaps the Marat), but it might upset others.
With regards to Furies of Calderon sets, like Kindler mentioned, they are pretty generic for the most part. Steadholdts are interchangeable, mercenary camp, Marat camp, generic Castle (just have to make sure that this is consistent across all the seasons). The biggest expense will be the Wax forest and the Wax spiders. Even that can be mitigated though by creating one medium set and showing it at different angles to simulate different parts of the forest. The single biggest expense of the first book would be the Marat horde with all their animals.
My biggest fear about a Codex Alera series would be that they would try to save money and cut costs by cutting/limiting the battles. If we are going to get a this series made into a show I want a commitment to show all the battles in all their glory.
One thought I had: if this would get made into a show, maybe they could convince Jim to write a few short stories that flesh out some of the event surrounding First Calderon, the romance between Isana and Septimus, and the death of Septimus. Heck maybe even a little more backstory for Fidelias (what transpired between Academ's and Cursor's Fury) would be welcome. These things are touched on in the book series, but could be slightly expanded and used to pace/fill in the show.
Agreed, you'd need two Tavi's and two Kitai's. I could even see three Tavi's: one for FoC, one for AF and CF, and a third for the full-grown legionnaire Captain Princepts. Or, more likely in Hollywood they cast the adult Tavi young and then pay for his body-building trainer and steroids.
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I finished watching travelers on Netflix. Thanks griffyn for mentioning that series. It's a great one. I can't wait to watch the next season. I hope there is a next season.
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Agreed, you'd need two Tavi's and two Kitai's. I could even see three Tavi's: one for FoC, one for AF and CF, and a third for the full-grown legionnaire Captain Princepts. Or, more likely in Hollywood they cast the adult Tavi young and then pay for his body-building trainer and steroids.
In that situation they should also use the third Tavi and have him play Septimus as well with some slight alterations.
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Any other good time travel etc series out there other than continuum and travelers. Something recent.
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I finished watching travelers on Netflix. Thanks griffyn for mentioning that series. It's a great one. I can't wait to watch the next season. I hope there is a next season.
It's a good take on time travel. Last I heard there was no word yet on season 3, but I'm hoping it happens.
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Any other good time travel etc series out there other than continuum and travelers. Something recent.
I didnt finish the whole season but I thought Timeless had a pretty good start, and it got renewed. A lot more Historic timeline meddling than the closed-loop Connor/Skynet sort of stories that Continuum and Travelers both seem to be.
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codex alera can be made series with each season focusing on one book but the main problem is Marat females in the first book being generally topless thus forcing series to pg 18 fro the start.
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codex alera can be made series with each season focusing on one book but the main problem is Marat females in the first book being generally topless thus forcing series to pg 18 fro the start.
Bah, standard hollywood proto-bikini costuming would solve that no problem. The cannibalistic orgy would be more of an issue.
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Bah, standard hollywood proto-bikini costuming would solve that no problem. The cannibalistic orgy would be more of an issue.
Agreed. Barbarian bikinis would keep the censors happy.
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There are only a few casting issues. Number one, Tavi is very small for his age until Cursor's Fury and Captain's Fury when he rapidly catches up and fills in. You might need two actors for Tavi. Second, Kitai can be mistaken for a boy when Tavi first meets her, but by Cursor's Fury/Captain's Fury she is described as an exotic beauty. Once again, two actress might be needed, but the same actress could potentially play Kitai and the Vord Queen. Third, there are distinct skin colorations for the different regions. Marat are pale, Countess Amara is described as having golden skin, another region is described as having swarthy skin etc. I personally not be opposed if some of those regional differences are discarded (except perhaps the Marat), but it might upset others.
With regards to Furies of Calderon sets, like Kindler mentioned, they are pretty generic for the most part. Steadholdts are interchangeable, mercenary camp, Marat camp, generic Castle (just have to make sure that this is consistent across all the seasons). The biggest expense will be the Wax forest and the Wax spiders. Even that can be mitigated though by creating one medium set and showing it at different angles to simulate different parts of the forest. The single biggest expense of the first book would be the Marat horde with all their animals.
My biggest fear about a Codex Alera series would be that they would try to save money and cut costs by cutting/limiting the battles. If we are going to get a this series made into a show I want a commitment to show all the battles in all their glory.
One thought I had: if this would get made into a show, maybe they could convince Jim to write a few short stories that flesh out some of the event surrounding First Calderon, the romance between Isana and Septimus, and the death of Septimus. Heck maybe even a little more backstory for Fidelias (what transpired between Academ's and Cursor's Fury) would be welcome. These things are touched on in the book series, but could be slightly expanded and used to pace/fill in the show.
I think it'd fit better as a movie, personally. I've seen what they've done to the Shannara books to shoehorn them into a TV series, and it doesn't work. Like, at all. It's patently terrible in every regard, and I curse the names of those responsible.
Also, in terms of casting, Kitai being mistaken for a boy is an ancillary thing. They can skip things like that, because it's also a little difficult to convey the intricacies of Marat's gender-neutral child rearing for a movie. It's Kitai that's important, not the gender reveal (which was reasonably predictable anyway—writers don't correct someone's use of a noun without it being important (see Ramona restating, "My seven evil exes, yes," after Scott says, "I have to defeat your seven evil ex-boyfriends?" in Scott Pilgrim vs. the World.))
Also, film production takes a while. Kids age. Tavi being small for his age and growing rapidly between Academ and Cursor is fine and all, but casting a fourteen year old kid for Furies is fine when he'll be twenty-something by the time Princeps rolls around. Space filming out a bit so the kids can age, and you don't need to cast the same roles more than once. You've got six movies to do, so it works out pretty well without any special consideration. Physical descriptions aren't all that critical, in my opinion, so long as the characters are right. Aldrick doesn't need to be a hulking giant, he just needs to be imposing and scary. Tavi doesn't need to grow up huge so much as we need to see him grow, if that makes sense. As for the skin tone differentiation between cities, it never really mattered in the books, so I don't see it being important in an adaptation.
And as a series... I don't think it'd work well. At least, not as well as Dresden. First, budgets for TV are spread much thinner, and are usually smaller than a movie's budget. It cost five grand each time they showed a vampire getting dusted on Buffy, which is why you only see it once in a while in the first two seasons (you just hear the noise most of the time). It's also why shows like Heroes had most of their potentially awesome fights (Peter vs. Sylar, which is what everyone wanted but never got) be through freaking telekinesis: it's cheap, and you need to stay lean across a twenty-episode season, or you'll wind up needing to do a few bottle episodes by the end.
I also don't think that the books lend themselves naturally to a series. The plot breaks aren't really easy to manage. It's a Two Lines, No Waiting situation, where the story is shifting between Bernard/Amara, Tavi and Friends, and sometimes Isana (though she's often tacked on to one or the other). In Academ's Fury, Isana's working to get aid for Calderon, Tavi is trying to thwart a plot and save the country, and Bernard and Amara are fighting a battle. The action is happening simultaneously, so breaking it up across multiple episodes is rough, and tends to convey a passage of time that isn't accurate in the context of the story. Dresden would be like 24, by contrast; everything is going down in thirty-six hours, and that's clear from the start. But the passage of time during a pitched battle, like in Academ, is dicey to convey correctly if the perspective flips back and forth to Tavi and Isana across different episodes. In a movie, it's simpler, because things aren't interrupted by a week-long break.
And, if I'm being honest, the Codex Alera's length is primarily due to narration. You have pages and pages describing individual fight scenes, which is suitably awesome for a book, but really only takes a couple of minutes of screen time to show. There's a lot of narration describing the benefits of Aleran troop discipline, too, but it's way easier just to show that.
And Bernard and Amara's two-week jaunt through the woods with a certain someone in Captain's Fury can be cut down to about four scenes, total.
It's a different story with Dresden, where so much of the charm of the series relies on the narration that a voiceover is a necessity, and which will necessitate stretching things out across a few installments. It fits both the urban fantasy stuff—Harry explaining the way magic works, for instance, or the different vampire courts—alongside the Noir style for the first several books. You're not going to get that with Codex, so some things can be summed up on screen pretty quickly.
I mean, I can write a script for Furies of Calderon with a 100-minute runtime, fairly easily, without sacrificing much of anything. I'd even have Gaius do a Galadriel-style voiceover in the beginning with his prologues, just so that you can juxtapose his grandiose ideas with a pan zoom onto Tavi chasing after a sheep.
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I think it'd fit better as a movie, personally. I've seen what they've done to the Shannara books to shoehorn them into a TV series, and it doesn't work. Like, at all. It's patently terrible in every regard, and I curse the names of those responsible.
Also, in terms of casting, Kitai being mistaken for a boy is an ancillary thing. They can skip things like that, because it's also a little difficult to convey the intricacies of Marat's gender-neutral child rearing for a movie. It's Kitai that's important, not the gender reveal (which was reasonably predictable anyway—writers don't correct someone's use of a noun without it being important (see Ramona restating, "My seven evil exes, yes," after Scott says, "I have to defeat your seven evil ex-boyfriends?" in Scott Pilgrim vs. the World.))
Also, film production takes a while. Kids age. Tavi being small for his age and growing rapidly between Academ and Cursor is fine and all, but casting a fourteen year old kid for Furies is fine when he'll be twenty-something by the time Princeps rolls around. Space filming out a bit so the kids can age, and you don't need to cast the same roles more than once. You've got six movies to do, so it works out pretty well without any special consideration. Physical descriptions aren't all that critical, in my opinion, so long as the characters are right. Aldrick doesn't need to be a hulking giant, he just needs to be imposing and scary. Tavi doesn't need to grow up huge so much as we need to see him grow, if that makes sense. As for the skin tone differentiation between cities, it never really mattered in the books, so I don't see it being important in an adaptation.
And as a series... I don't think it'd work well. At least, not as well as Dresden. First, budgets for TV are spread much thinner, and are usually smaller than a movie's budget. It cost five grand each time they showed a vampire getting dusted on Buffy, which is why you only see it once in a while in the first two seasons (you just hear the noise most of the time). It's also why shows like Heroes had most of their potentially awesome fights (Peter vs. Sylar, which is what everyone wanted but never got) be through freaking telekinesis: it's cheap, and you need to stay lean across a twenty-episode season, or you'll wind up needing to do a few bottle episodes by the end.
I also don't think that the books lend themselves naturally to a series. The plot breaks aren't really easy to manage. It's a Two Lines, No Waiting situation, where the story is shifting between Bernard/Amara, Tavi and Friends, and sometimes Isana (though she's often tacked on to one or the other). In Academ's Fury, Isana's working to get aid for Calderon, Tavi is trying to thwart a plot and save the country, and Bernard and Amara are fighting a battle. The action is happening simultaneously, so breaking it up across multiple episodes is rough, and tends to convey a passage of time that isn't accurate in the context of the story. Dresden would be like 24, by contrast; everything is going down in thirty-six hours, and that's clear from the start. But the passage of time during a pitched battle, like in Academ, is dicey to convey correctly if the perspective flips back and forth to Tavi and Isana across different episodes. In a movie, it's simpler, because things aren't interrupted by a week-long break.
And, if I'm being honest, the Codex Alera's length is primarily due to narration. You have pages and pages describing individual fight scenes, which is suitably awesome for a book, but really only takes a couple of minutes of screen time to show. There's a lot of narration describing the benefits of Aleran troop discipline, too, but it's way easier just to show that.
And Bernard and Amara's two-week jaunt through the woods with a certain someone in Captain's Fury can be cut down to about four scenes, total.
It's a different story with Dresden, where so much of the charm of the series relies on the narration that a voiceover is a necessity, and which will necessitate stretching things out across a few installments. It fits both the urban fantasy stuff—Harry explaining the way magic works, for instance, or the different vampire courts—alongside the Noir style for the first several books. You're not going to get that with Codex, so some things can be summed up on screen pretty quickly.
I mean, I can write a script for Furies of Calderon with a 100-minute runtime, fairly easily, without sacrificing much of anything. I'd even have Gaius do a Galadriel-style voiceover in the beginning with his prologues, just so that you can juxtapose his grandiose ideas with a pan zoom onto Tavi chasing after a sheep.
kinda agreed with you mate but we do have plot breaks to make it long enough as fans want to see the lore and training behind the furycraft plus the whole academy portion and lots of the army portions can be shown long few episode arcs and if we throw some side content like max's adventures during academy years to mix we have solid long seasons and the whole journey to cannim lands and back is kinda pergant for few side plots.
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I think it'd fit better as a movie, personally. I've seen what they've done to the Shannara books to shoehorn them into a TV series, and it doesn't work. Like, at all. It's patently terrible in every regard, and I curse the names of those responsible.
Id argue that Shannarra's issues are very different but none would (hopefully) apply to a Dresden or Alera adaptation.
1) Shannara Chronicles started on MTV (of all Places), then got shunted to Spike TV for season 2, and now has been cancelled again with Spike shopping it around to other networks. So it was never going to get the support or quality or budgets that we all hope any of Jim's works would.
2) The Shannara series is one that spanned 40 years of writing, with the author speeding a lot of time on prequels that wildly elaborated if not outright retconned most of the worlds roots, especially if compared to the earlier works that the shows are drawing from. Also, in most cases there was a time-gap of generations between each book, which TV shows just arent willing to recast each season. So what Brooks says they are doing is loosely adapting Elfstones and Wishsong while drawing in various elements that came from the more recent books (pretty sure Mareth is a combination of at least 4 different characters). It is also putting a hell of a lot more focus on the post-apocalyptic nature of things, which is probably my favorite thing in the show and the only thing it does better than the books. That and Manu Bennett, there are few Castings more perfect that his Allanon.
3) It is still lightyears ahead of Legend of the Seeker.
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3) It is still lightyears ahead of Legend of the Seeker.
How dare you?!?! Sam Raimi has an unimpeachable record! (/joking)
Shannara was a really, really important book series for me. I read it during a particularly formative period, when I was first articulating myself as a writer, so what they've done to the series is a huge sore spot. I hate everything about it (though I agree Allanon was cast perfectly fine, I just hate the direction they took the character).
My argument against Codex being a series is that you will inevitably have to stretch it to fill each season. You will have filler, and I do not have confidence that it can be as good as the books. It's the opposite problem that film adaptations have (which is that they cut too much). I don't want a series about Tavi going to the Academy and learning that it sucks to not have furies while he makes unlikely friends like Max (for example). There's a reason that all of that stuff happened in the years between the books.
Maybe there can be a medium between the two; limited series developed by Netflix or HBO or something, that can take however long is appropriate without overstuffing an already full concept with frivolous stuff.
Hell, maybe get some indie developer like Rooster Teeth, which has shockingly high production value, and make it into a web series—all of their ongoing productions flow well enough that you can watch them as a movie. I'd even be fine with them animating it; they've proven they know what they're doing. Though I guess they'd be accused of overlapping too much, as there are enough similarities between Codex Alera and RWBY.
Anyway, I just want there to be good, high production value adaptations. I think it'd be best served as a set of movies. If the meat isn't cut, I won't argue about the fat; I don't want another Harry Potter fiasco, which, in my opinion, should be an example of how not to faithfully adapt a story.
Peter Jackson did it right. He didn't lose much aside from Tom, and didn't mess up much aside from Faramir.
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Any other good time travel etc series out there other than continuum and travelers. Something recent.
I know you said, "GOOD", but ... DC's Legends of Tomorrow is all about time travel.
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Maybe there can be a medium between the two; limited series developed by Netflix or HBO or something, that can take however long is appropriate without overstuffing an already full concept with frivolous stuff.
The only way I would want to see Codex on the TV is as a limited run series. Only make the number of episodes needed to tell the story. I prefer a limited run series over a movie because I would hope that the bare minimum would be left on the cutting room floor. Movies cut parts out to maintain pace and spacing of plot elements. If you have an 8 or 12 episode tv series pacing and plot spacing can be handled easier without resorting to cutting things out.
My argument against Codex being a series is that you will inevitably have to stretch it to fill each season. You will have filler, and I do not have confidence that it can be as good as the books. It's the opposite problem that film adaptations have (which is that they cut too much). I don't want a series about Tavi going to the Academy and learning that it sucks to not have furies while he makes unlikely friends like Max (for example). There's a reason that all of that stuff happened in the years between the books.
As far as filler goes, throw money at Jim Butcher and ask him to write some short scenes (doesn't even need to be short story length) detailing things like the battle of Seven Hills, Septimus meeting Isana, Septimus courting Isana, First Calderon/Death of Septimus, Fidelias between Academ and Cursor's Fury etc. Heck, most of them wouldn't even require a story treatment, just an outline of the locations, events, and actions.
Anyway, I just want there to be good, high production value adaptations. I think it'd be best served as a set of movies. If the meat isn't cut, I won't argue about the fat; I don't want another Harry Potter fiasco, which, in my opinion, should be an example of how not to faithfully adapt a story.
I think we have had this discussion before, but I agree completely with the mistreatment of the Harry Potter Book series. To me, this is the biggest example of the shortcomings of using movies to adapt a multi book series. Use HBO or Netflix limited series just to cut out meddling studios.
Peter Jackson did it right. He didn't lose much aside from Tom, and didn't mess up much aside from Faramir.
Peter Jackson did the LOTR trilogy right. I agree completely. I don't even mind the greater prominence given to Arwen. The Hobbit series is another example of a poor book adaption, but that cannot be laid at Peter Jackson's feet IMHO.
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There are only two things I didn't like about how Jackson did LOTR.
The Hobbits got their weapons from the Barrow Downs. In the movie, Strider gave them to the Hobbits.
And Tom Bombadill.
Tom can be overlooked. He didn't really add anything to the story. But the adventure in the Barrow Downs would have been a great set up to show how the Hobbits developed for later.
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I know you said, "GOOD", but ... DC's Legends of Tomorrow is all about time travel.
The Arrowverse shows are a bit of an occasional guilty pleasure of mine. First couple of seasons of Arrow were pretty awesome, and the Flash got pretty good after it found its footing. Haven't watch LoT, but it's still around, so it must have something going for it.
The only way I would want to see Codex on the TV is as a limited run series. Only make the number of episodes needed to tell the story. I prefer a limited run series over a movie because I would hope that the bare minimum would be left on the cutting room floor. Movies cut parts out to maintain pace and spacing of plot elements. If you have an 8 or 12 episode tv series pacing and plot spacing can be handled easier without resorting to cutting things out.
I agree in spirit; too much is axed for the sake of brevity, which I understand, but dislike. Specifically for the Codex Alera, I don't think more than six hour-long episodes would be necessary; there's just not all that much in any given book to warrant more. Like I said before, Furies of Calderon can be done in two hours, pretty easily. Even Second Garrison isn't all that long; it's three waves, broken up with three duels (spoilered since this is Dresden Country)
(Pirilous vs. Aldrick, Doroga vs. Atsurak, and the Mighty Fade vs. Aldrick). Personally, I've wanted to see the look of terror and denial on Aldrick's face in live action since I read the book; it's probably my favorite reveal in recent literature, and I think it was built up superbly—especially considering this was Jim's first crack at high fantasy at this level of writing. And Pirilous's death was perfectly handled—sudden and brutal, the result of minor hubris, and reinforces Gaius's later insistence that "big things are made up of small things." A cut to the forehead hours before that wasn't properly attended cost him his life in a critical moment. I kinda wish there had been a call back to that later on, but maybe I'm just too romantic about some things.
As far as filler goes, throw money at Jim Butcher and ask him to write some short scenes (doesn't even need to be short story length) detailing things like the battle of Seven Hills, Septimus meeting Isana, Septimus courting Isana, First Calderon/Death of Septimus, Fidelias between Academ and Cursor's Fury etc. Heck, most of them wouldn't even require a story treatment, just an outline of the locations, events, and actions.
I can get behind something like that. I've just gone through several anime phases in the last several decades, and have seen filler just about kill my interest in serialized shows. The first round of Fullmetal Alchemist I just couldn't like, for instance, because so much of the plot was shoehorned into place by people who don't know what they're doing.
I'd be okay with adding background stuff, especially about Septimus, so long as it was done right, and with Jim's heavy involvement. That's the kind of thing that can be done without devoting entire episodes to them, especially as Isana was there for Second Calderon. I never felt like Septimus was much of a character, so working with someone like him and developing that—something that is essentially a blank slate—might be all right.
I think we have had this discussion before, but I agree completely with the mistreatment of the Harry Potter Book series. To me, this is the biggest example of the shortcomings of using movies to adapt a multi book series. Use HBO or Netflix limited series just to cut out meddling studios.
I agree most of the time. My objection is turning Codex Alera into Game of Thrones, if you catch my meaning; we don't need eight, thirteen-episode seasons for this, and to do so would be a disservice to a book series that is naturally fast-paced. It's why any adaptation of the Dresden Files needs to be kept lean and tight, covering a few books each season, and ONLY those books (in my opinion), maybe with a clip show of the short stories that take place in between the books ("Day Off" would be so much fun to see it's stupid).
Peter Jackson did the LOTR trilogy right. I agree completely. I don't even mind the greater prominence given to Arwen. The Hobbit series is another example of a poor book adaption, but that cannot be laid at Peter Jackson's feet IMHO.
Yeah, didn't the studio pressure him to split it into three? I will give him one thing: he did "The Unexpected Party" precisely how I wanted it. My dad and I saw the trailer together, and I looked over at him and said, "If 'The Unexpected Party' isn't the first half of this movie, Peter Jackson should be mauled by syphilitic koalas." LoTR is as special to me as it is to Jim: when I was a kid, my dad read to me every night, and we got through The Hobbit, The Fellowship of the Ring, and half of the Two Towers. After that, he started his business, and wasn't home until later. So, as a second-grader, I picked up the books and finished them, which pretty much set me down the path I'm on now.
Anyway, Peter Jackson did a great job for the part that mattered most to me, and I'm thankful for it. Jim Butcher deserves his own Peter Jackson.
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I watched one episode like far in to the series. It was way too much action.
I just finished watching future man. Great show.
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How dare you?!?! Sam Raimi has an unimpeachable record! (/joking)
Dont get me wrong, I have High Hopes for his KingKiller Chronicles
Shannara was a really, really important book series for me. I read it during a particularly formative period, when I was first articulating myself as a writer, so what they've done to the series is a huge sore spot. I hate everything about it (though I agree Allanon was cast perfectly fine, I just hate the direction they took the character).
Im looking at it more like a comic book adaptation, trying to enjoy it in it's own right and viewing any book elements more as cool cameo's and call-outs, rather than being perpetually disappointed by it's far-ranging deviation.
My argument against Codex being a series is that you will inevitably have to stretch it to fill each season. You will have filler, and I do not have confidence that it can be as good as the books. It's the opposite problem that film adaptations have (which is that they cut too much). I don't want a series about Tavi going to the Academy and learning that it sucks to not have furies while he makes unlikely friends like Max (for example). There's a reason that all of that stuff happened in the years between the books.
I really dont think this would be a problem these days, as odds are what they like to call a "season" these days is only going to be 8-12 episodes, rather than the 20-24 of days past.
Maybe there can be a medium between the two; limited series developed by Netflix or HBO or something, that can take however long is appropriate without overstuffing an already full concept with frivolous stuff.
This would be my hope: one Netflix "Part" per book, which are consistent enough in length to all fit similar allotments of screen-time.
Hell, maybe get some indie developer like Rooster Teeth, which has shockingly high production value, and make it into a web series—all of their ongoing productions flow well enough that you can watch them as a movie. I'd even be fine with them animating it; they've proven they know what they're doing. Though I guess they'd be accused of overlapping too much, as there are enough similarities between Codex Alera and RWBY.
I have Doubts it would be what WE'd all hope (RIP, Monty :'()
Anyway, I just want there to be good, high production value adaptations. I think it'd be best served as a set of movies. If the meat isn't cut, I won't argue about the fat; I don't want another Harry Potter fiasco, which, in my opinion, should be an example of how not to faithfully adapt a story.
I agree with the sentiment, I just dont think the feature-length movies are the best way to go, for two reasons: 1) they have the most history of trying to change the core story that we loved in attempts to make it appeal to broader movie-going audiences, which usually ruins what made the story popular in the first place, and 2) Feature length films, even franchises, will always try their to cram a complete story into a single volume, meaning no single book is ever going to get more than 2-3 hours all in, whereas even a short mini-series or well-funded (GoT or Netflix style) show has the freedom to spend 8-12 hours without being beholden to the 2-hour story rhythm a feature needs.
Peter Jackson did it right. He didn't lose much aside from Tom, and didn't mess up much aside from Faramir.
Lets just pretend the Hobbit never happened so that I can agree with you :P
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Dont get me wrong, I have High Hopes for his KingKiller Chronicles
I just don't want it to take away from Ash vs. Evil Dead.
Im looking at it more like a comic book adaptation, trying to enjoy it in it's own right and viewing any book elements more as cool cameo's and call-outs, rather than being perpetually disappointed by it's far-ranging deviation.
I don't judge taste in media; like what you like. After half a season, I was just angry. I can deal with deviations and such, but not when it's bad deviation, if you catch my meaning. For example, what was done to Fred and George in the Harry Potter movies. Order of the Phoenix should have been their character climaxes. I'm not fan of JK Rowling's writing style by any means, but I'll be damned if they didn't have one of the most satisfying departures from the main story I've ever read. And the movie relegated that to about half a scene. That's the kind of thing I want to avoid; halfhearted attempts to adapt things that are there, but failing miserably to do so in a way that is remotely satisfying, and only vaguely resembles the skeleton of the source material.
Imagine the final duel of Furies of Calderon, on the battlements, and imagine it being done in less than a minute, with no buildup or drama. Technically it's present, but it's just... empty. That's my fear of any adaptation attempt.
I really dont think this would be a problem these days, as odds are what they like to call a "season" these days is only going to be 8-12 episodes, rather than the 20-24 of days past.
Maybe. I only have previous examples to point to. Game of Thrones is done pretty well, but even that feels bloated with 13 episode-seasons. I liked last season's shorter approach, because it felt like things were actually happening in each installment, rather than once every few episodes an Important Thing happens.
This would be my hope: one Netflix "Part" per book, which are consistent enough in length to all fit similar allotments of screen-time.
Dare to dream.
I have Doubts it would be what WE'd all hope (RIP, Monty :'()
Monty was and is irreplaceable, but the rest of the team grew and adapted. Fights lack the insane complexity of the Project Freelancer setpieces, but they're perfectly as they are now. I don't know if you've seen the latest season of RWBY, but some of those fights restored my confidence, particularly in the last few episodes. Still, I can only dream about what Monty Oum would have done with a pair of metalcrafters dueling for several minutes. There simply can be no substitute.
Regardless, I think Rooster Teeth would be able to do a really good job overall, and I'd be pumped to see what they did with pitched battles, which isn't something they've ever done before. So long as they didn't take art direction from 300, it'd probably be great.
I agree with the sentiment, I just dont think the feature-length movies are the best way to go, for two reasons: 1) they have the most history of trying to change the core story that we loved in attempts to make it appeal to broader movie-going audiences, which usually ruins what made the story popular in the first place, and 2) Feature length films, even franchises, will always try their to cram a complete story into a single volume, meaning no single book is ever going to get more than 2-3 hours all in, whereas even a short mini-series or well-funded (GoT or Netflix style) show has the freedom to spend 8-12 hours without being beholden to the 2-hour story rhythm a feature needs.
Yeah, dumbing things down to appeal to a broad audience is a danger.
I'd honestly be most afraid of them turning the Canim into dumb beastmen. It'd be a horrible mistake, but I can see some executive going, "But they're big and furry. Audiences don't want clever beast enemies, they want something to hate so they feel smarter."
Lets just pretend the Hobbit never happened so that I can agree with you :P
I don't count the Hobbit trilogy; I'm just talking about the Lord of the Rings. So yes, we agree :).
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I'd honestly be most afraid of them turning the Canim into dumb beastmen. It'd be a horrible mistake, but I can see some executive going, "But they're big and furry. Audiences don't want clever beast enemies, they want something to hate so they feel smarter."
The Canim culture is one of my favorite things about the Codex Alera series. Cursor's fury is my favorite book due to the battle between the Canim and First Aleran. I want to see Varg in all his glory!
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The Canim culture is one of my favorite things about the Codex Alera series. Cursor's fury is my favorite book due to the battle between the Canim and First Aleran. I want to see Varg in all his glory!
It's one of the reasons I like the series so much; Tavi's rise in popularity and power felt earned, especially after Cursor's Fury. I've read a few books where the power creep and character shilling was just annoying, because it didn't feel warranted in the context of the story. Ditto Dresden; Harry's earned his Terror Hero reputation.
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I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:
Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.
Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.
Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.
Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.
Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.
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I like Foxed's plan.
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Monty was and is irreplaceable, but the rest of the team grew and adapted. Fights lack the insane complexity of the Project Freelancer setpieces, but they're perfectly as they are now. I don't know if you've seen the latest season of RWBY, but some of those fights restored my confidence, particularly in the last few episodes. Still, I can only dream about what Monty Oum would have done with a pair of metalcrafters dueling for several minutes. There simply can be no substitute.
Regardless, I think Rooster Teeth would be able to do a really good job overall, and I'd be pumped to see what they did with pitched battles, which isn't something they've ever done before. So long as they didn't take art direction from 300, it'd probably be great.
Im a big fan of RvB, but I never was able to get into RWBY, something about the faces and way they moved outside of the awesome combat scenes hit me too hard in the Uncanny Valley to really give it the chance it deserved (and Im a massive anime fan so it's not just the BESM style). But that's really my only hesitance with Rooster Teeth: while they've proven capable action animators they arent the best when it comes to original art assets or design or conveying subtle human emotion and facial movement and whatnot.
Yeah, dumbing things down to appeal to a broad audience is a danger.
I'd honestly be most afraid of them turning the Canim into dumb beastmen. It'd be a horrible mistake, but I can see some executive going, "But they're big and furry. Audiences don't want clever beast enemies, they want something to hate so they feel smarter."
I dont think that will be a problem because they'll have too much fun with their Werewolf Samurai culture.
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I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:
How long are you picturing these seasons? If possible wouldnt want to give any book less that maybe 4 episodes worth of screen-time (ie 3 full hours)
Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.
Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.
Id call Thomas a guest start for the first season, but I think you'd really need him and Justine at Bianca's ball if you are going to have DM and BR make sense. Personally I wouldnt mind it if he disappeared for the SK arc and resurface with Ortega and the vampire subplot.
Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.
Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.
Id say no need to involved Peabody in SmF if he was on-screen at the SK Council Meeting and maybe one or both PG Trial.
Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.
The only (potential) issue I see here is that Jim's long said he viewed Changes, Ghost Story and Cold Days as a sort of Mini-trilogy. Plus Id be kinda sad to see Morgans death relegated to a mid-season beat. I think it TC be a great finale on it's own, and if they are mean they end it with an after-credits cliffhanger of "I answered the phone, and Susan Rodriguez said, “They’ve taken our daughter.”" Then you get a full season devoted to Harry's Parethood lessons, and by then SG will likely make more sense grouped with Peace Talks as they take the last-season Gates Reveal and swing the focus back to the global threats.
Also, I would very much enjoy them sprinkling the Short Stories in there as well, which IMO would help since my preferred schedule would slow down around DB where the Shorts began. For example, I would want Heorot before SmF, Something Borrowed before PG, Day Off before TC if possible, and Aftermath, Even Hand and Bombshells in their proper chronological place. And I think I would really enjoy if they did Fistful of Warlocks just before DB.
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Im a big fan of RvB, but I never was able to get into RWBY, something about the faces and way they moved outside of the awesome combat scenes hit me too hard in the Uncanny Valley to really give it the chance it deserved (and Im a massive anime fan so it's not just the BESM style). But that's really my only hesitance with Rooster Teeth: while they've proven capable action animators they arent the best when it comes to original art assets or design or conveying subtle human emotion and facial movement and whatnot.
There was a dramatic improvement in animation quality after the first season of RWBY. I was hesitant too, because I thought it looked terrible overall from the start. It felt like something an indie developer would make for a Nintendo system. It still feels like a video game rendering system, but for something actually good, like Valkyria Chronicles.
To me, the biggest flaw was always the weird physics. Models never seemed to actually interact with anything, just sort of collide with it. Picking something up might look like they pass their hand over it, and suddenly they're holding it.
That and some serious genre shifts later on makes it worth sticking with, in my opinion. It takes a serious turn, and the happy-go-lucky, genki style of the beginning moves on to way darker material. That and, you know, raised stakes, et cetera.
RT really likes to take something, start it off light and funny, then have a dramatic twist that takes things in an unexpected direction.
I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:
Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.
Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.
Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.
Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.
Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.
I can get behind tweaks like that. So long as it doesn't screw up the lore and adds to the story rather than detracts from it, I'd be fine.
Not sure I agree about ending a season with Cold Days, Quantus. The Gates make it seem like the scope of the overall series is going to change, but it really doesn't in Skin Game; the stakes shrink down to personal, relatively minor political maneuvering. Peace Talks will bring the scale back to a global level, but Mirror Mirror probably won't. Then comes Fight Night, right? I think it'd make more sense to do Peace Talks (which, I believe, will feature a lot of fan service, with returning characters galore), then Mirror Mirror (which will likely feature many of those reintroduced characters but in a separate, bizzaro-world context), then Fight Night, where Harry returns to solve a more run-of-the-mill mystery, but is introduced to a different pantheon of gods, who will presumably be bigger players moving on.
Plus it's kind of hard to beat the ending of Skin Game; it's Harry's first total, untarnished victory. He feels guilty about Ascher, Murphy getting hurt, and is worried about losing the Grail, but he's finally got some of the things he wants. Things will be more different for him in Peace Talks than they were at the start of Changes, but the message is still the same: Harry's back, and Chicago's his turf.
That's how I see it, anyway.
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Not sure I agree about ending a season with Cold Days, Quantus. The Gates make it seem like the scope of the overall series is going to change, but it really doesn't in Skin Game; the stakes shrink down to personal, relatively minor political maneuvering. Peace Talks will bring the scale back to a global level, but Mirror Mirror probably won't. Then comes Fight Night, right? I think it'd make more sense to do Peace Talks (which, I believe, will feature a lot of fan service, with returning characters galore), then Mirror Mirror (which will likely feature many of those reintroduced characters but in a separate, bizzaro-world context), then Fight Night, where Harry returns to solve a more run-of-the-mill mystery, but is introduced to a different pantheon of gods, who will presumably be bigger players moving on.
Plus it's kind of hard to beat the ending of Skin Game; it's Harry's first total, untarnished victory. He feels guilty about Ascher, Murphy getting hurt, and is worried about losing the Grail, but he's finally got some of the things he wants. Things will be more different for him in Peace Talks than they were at the start of Changes, but the message is still the same: Harry's back, and Chicago's his turf.
That's how I see it, anyway.
That should only be an issue if you are trying to make Skin Game stand on it's own, but it wouldnt need to because it would be part of the SG/PT Season (or even SG/PT/MM). But I think thematically Skin Game is a big deviation from the three before, but would jive much better with Peace Talks since both are about the wider political situation of the world.
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That should only be an issue if you are trying to make Skin Game stand on it's own, but it wouldnt need to because it would be part of the SG/PT Season (or even SG/PT/MM). But I think thematically Skin Game is a big deviation from the three before, but would jive much better with Peace Talks since both are about the wider political situation of the world.
My thinking is that Ghost Story/Cold Days/Skin Game stands as a trilogy about Harry returning to Chicago. First to life, then to Demonreach, then back home.
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My thinking is that Ghost Story/Cold Days/Skin Game stands as a trilogy about Harry returning to Chicago. First to life, then to Demonreach, then back home.
Ah, kk. Jim said he viewed the Changes/GS/CD as more a Death, Afterlife and Rebirth set.
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I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:
Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.
Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.
Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.
Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.
Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.
I like almost all of this. The time gap between books could still be a problem, but those groupings look fantastic. Changes as a "cliffhanger" at the end of Season 4 also works out well.
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I still think that with minor changes you could group three books into a season and get a decent season every time:
Season 1 (StF, FM, GP) - Insert Bianca into Fool Moon and you got a big bad.
Season 2 (SK, DM, BR) - Insert Thomas into Summer Knight and you have a Thomas season.
Season 3 (DB, PG, WN) Add Cowl into Harry's PTSD in Proven Guilty and call it a day.
Season 4 (SmF, TC, Changes) - Thread Peabody into Small Favor and call it a day. You've earned it. Plus, Changes makes a hell of a finale.
Season 5 (GS, CD, SG) - Pretty solid through line that puts Harry back together by the end of the season. Mostly.
It would mess up the changes Cliff Hanger but you could always start at SmF and do 2 books per season.
so
S4 - SmF & TC
S5 - Changes & GS - Harry Death a Mid season Cliff Hanger. Harry waking up in his body end of Season
S6 - CD & SG
s7 - PT & MM
Also with all this talk, I would hate for the same thing to happen to a new DF series as has happened to ASOIF. Butcher needs to finish the books before he starts up with alternative media.
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you know how about we build it as crime show drama like flash were papa raith is still the big bad but we add lets say 5 to 10 episodes of harrys regular investigation work like few cases from police and may be job from lara or white council as to fill the season
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you know how about we build it as crime show drama like flash were papa raith is still the big bad but we add lets say 5 to 10 episodes of harrys regular investigation work like few cases from police and may be job from lara or white council as to fill the season
I think that is what they Tried with the SyFy show. They tried to make it more of a cop show. I think the draw of DF is the interactions with the larger communities/storylines that lie outside of everyday Chicago.
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Ah, kk. Jim said he viewed the Changes/GS/CD as more a Death, Afterlife and Rebirth set.
Well, sure, but I'd argue with Jim about that. Changes includes Harry's death as the last thing that happens, but it's not really about his death; Ghost Story is a better representation of Death, because the entire story has his condition as a driving force behind it. Changes is more of a book about the Tarot interpretation of the Death card, if anything: "Death" in the Tarot deck represents... change. The underlying theme is the destruction of Harry's old life, and we're introduced to seismic shifts in the ongoing arc: Harry has a daughter, Susan's arc ends, the Red Court is killed to the last man, the Wardens are attacked by members of the Council and are likely pissed, Gregor Christos shows his colors, Molly gets her mind and emotions wrecked, I'd argue that Butters's brush with death is one of the things that drives his character development moving forward, Harry accepts the Winter Knight gig, and has a relationship upgrade with Murphy. His death at the end is like a postscript. "And on top of everything else, I freaking DIED."
The actual death of Harry isn't dealt with in any kind of fashion until Ghost Story, which I think is a good representation of both the Death AND Afterlife stages. Cold Days kind of doubles as an afterlife story to me, too--at least the first chunk of it. I don't see Harry's Rebirth stage being complete until the end of Skin Game; that's when Harry returns for real and deals with a lot of the stuff that had been going on in his absence, including his time on Demonreach. Cold Days is more like... labor pains.
But that's just how I see the arcs in the latter portion of the series, and what do I know?
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Going back to Alera, I think you could do two books a season. First is Tavi as an adolescent, reacting to everything. Second is Tavi finding his place in the world, seeing how things fit together. Third is Tavi as an adult, where he plans and shapes the world, instead of reacting.
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Going back to Alera, I think you could do two books a season. First is Tavi as an adolescent, reacting to everything. Second is Tavi finding his place in the world, seeing how things fit together. Third is Tavi as an adult, where he plans and shapes the world, instead of reacting.
That would make sense, though for that Id be hoping for longer Seasons that the 8-12 that seem popular these days. Tavi's story could be told at two books per season, but I really dont think you could fit the Tavi&Co arcs plus the Amara & Bernard and Isana/Araris without tragic levels of trimming. But doing the 20-24 episode model with mid-season breaks and half-season mini-arcs the way a lot of established franchise shows are doing, that might fit it nicely.
And as you say it would work well in terms of the Casting Challenges: you cast Tavi young and scrawny for Season 1 where he's either an apprentice sheppard or the runt student getting picked on, Season 2 he gets recast for his adolescent Coming of Age arcs where he joins the military, and Season three you use the Actor previously cast as Septimus to be the full-grown Princepts Octavian for the two continents worth of Vord battles.
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Re-casting is not necessarily a death sentence-netflix's series on Queen Elizabeth is great!
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Re-casting is not necessarily a death sentence-netflix's series on Queen Elizabeth is great!
Id agrue it works great when used to actually serve the story with Aging, etc. It sucks when it's just actor availability, breaks the immersion.
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Id agrue it works great when used to actually serve the story with Aging, etc. It sucks when it's just actor availability, breaks the immersion.
Agreed. I am a fan of keeping the same actors whenever possible. Sign relatively unknown talent for the whole series. It would help that a series based on a complete book series would have a known end date.
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Agreed. I am a fan of keeping the same actors whenever possible. Sign relatively unknown talent for the whole series. It would help that a series based on a complete book series would have a known end date.
Indeed, they could actually put the aging on the schedule. And while I like the idea of using the Septimus Actor for end-story Tavi, I have seen them have good luck with casting a teenage actor early and letting them grow up (and, sadly, too often bulk out with steroids) to accomplish the step-changes they're after. I could see casting a young actor and just film-magicing him a little smaller in the FoC/AF era, give him a haircut and personal trainer to make him look older for CuF/CaF, then move on up to Septimus-as-Octavian for the finale. You'd just have to cast a pair that look that much alike.