Justine gives birth to twins, one WCV and one normal.I doubt it. There's no real difference between them until they hit puberty as near as we can tell. They've got to get that first kill before it happens. Otherwise you get into some really messed up parts, like a toddler who eats sex, basically. I can't imagine Jim wanting to go down that route.
All those supernaturals and you can't just rent out a conference center.
I agree with Griffyn.I don't know that Marcone would risk subjecting any of his employees to the tastes of monsters. If he offered the service to one tasteful attendee but not an unsavory one, then it would appear to be favoritism, and would start things off on the wrong foot
I've also stated this before that since the first chapter stated that Marcone had already agreed to host the talks AND he already owns a hotel in Chicago, it would be be very easy for him to use that location. And if any of the attendees need to relieve some stress, the Velvet Room, sorry Executive Priority Health Club, in the same building.
I said this a few years back, but since it's been a while, I'll rehash it.
My prediction/hope was that the Talks would be held in a hotel in Chicago (maybe the one from Skin Game, maybe the Rothchild from Summer Knight). Harry would be there as the Winter Knight (escorting the Winter Lady). It would be hosted by Marcone, with the hotel closed off to the general public, and a bunch of wards protecting the place.
It'd start with the attendees being introduced, and one of the reveals would be the Eebs arriving with a small retinue of Ramps (either as the inheritors of the Red Court, or as Fomor members).
Things would really snap off when one of the Eebs ended up dead, which would trigger wards that would lock down the hotel, preventing anyone from coming or going. A bunch of powerful beings would be trapped together, none of them trusting each other, and believing the others are trying something.
Harry will be accused of the murder (something on the nose, like the Eeb being found frozen and shattered, a known method of execution for Harry now) and he'll have to solve the murder to clear his name, find the real killer, uncover the plot, and release the wards.
The sealed-off hotel would allow for that Shining-feel of isolated desperation.
And of course, despite Harry's efforts, the Talks will be a disaster, people and things will die, the war will continue, and everyone will blame him.
I don't know about the entire scenario you've constructed. For example, I suppose the Eebs making a return could happen, but I'm not jumping on that train just yet. Though I do like the idea that if the Eebs did return they would now be members of the Fomor. That is a really cool idea because it would drive Harry absolutely nuts.The benefit of it being at a hotel is that the facility can provide food, lodging, conference rooms for talks, and a ballroom for formal events. A large hotel reserved just for the event would have plenty of floors for each faction to have their own, as well as empty floors between. And it would lend itself to creepy hallway scenes.
However, your basic premise of a murder mystery for Harry to unravel because his ass is on the line and seeing himself and everyone else trapped together is solid. The only problems I have with it are minor. I think Molly is going to have to come out to her parents or have them find out on their own about her new job and what it could potentially mean. So I don't see that happening in a locked down environment. Also, if someone like Cowl or Mavra shows up to make trouble it's much easier and safer to do that if the talks take place at a certain set time and at the end of each session the parties fall back to safe locations to plan for the next round.
However, I know there are workarounds to both the issues I mentioned. Molly's issue could come to the fore near the beginning of the story before everyone gets locked down, or near the end of the story and Cowl or Mavra could end up getting locked in with everyone else.
I just had a thought about the location. In Ghosts Story; I believe Harry was looking for Molly, and he ended up at the location where Splattercon was held, but it was now out of business. I could see Marrcone buying this property and renovating it. It's better than just a hotel or stand alone convention center because meetings could be held in the convention center and the members to the talks could retreat to their own rooms and likely their own floors at the end of each session of talks.
In the story? Almost certainly. In the talks? Probably not.
For peace talks, you don't actually need an arbiter or moderator. Just two (or more) sides willing to talk. Plenty of times they've just been between the different sides and nothing else.
And as for neutral territory, I doubt his pub is actually large enough to fit enough people, nor would it have the dignity of the occasion.
The benefit of it being at a hotel is that the facility can provide food, lodging, conference rooms for talks, and a ballroom for formal events. A large hotel reserved just for the event would have plenty of floors for each faction to have their own, as well as empty floors between. And it would lend itself to creepy hallway scenes.
(https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/article_small/public/thumbnails/image/2015/11/02/13/the-shining.jpg)
For peace talks, you don't actually need an arbiter or moderator. Just two (or more) sides willing to talk. Plenty of times they've just been between the different sides and nothing else.
And as for neutral territory, I doubt his pub is actually large enough to fit enough people, nor would it have the dignity of the occasion.
Does anyone else think that Mac may make an appearance
Imagine a scene where most or all of the delegates are meeting downstairs in the convention area, and while Harry is doing whatever his security work involves; let's say he's facing off against Fomor security, and he receives a message from Lara Raith that says something like this, "I need to see you in my room after this session ends. There is a plot that concerns us both of us that you need to know about and I need to speak to the Winter Knight. I need to know what Winter's position is on (fill in the blank)." (Of course Lara would throw some sexual innuendo in any note she wrote to Harry.) So if Harry decides to take Lara up on her offer he has to go from one type of dangerous situation and environment into a different type of dangerous situation and environment and yet it's all contained in the same facility.
Actually, I think it has already been announced by Jim that Ivy; and presumably Kincaid, will be on hand for the talks.
It is my understanding that Ivy is a member of the Accords in her own right. She is often used as an Arbiter because she is neutral, but I do not think she is actually a full time Arbiter. She could be present as just another Accords member and someone else may serve as an Arbiter if one is needed.This is true. She's an Independent signatory just like Marcone, Drakul or Ferro. In DM, Bob said that "The vampires and the Council will pick from a list of neutral emissaries" which is how she was chosen (and it was just Harry's choice in SmF) so we can assume she's on that list, but I think we can also likely assume that there are Independent Signatories that are more politically active and so not considered Neutral parties.
This is true. She's an Independent signatory just like Marcone, Drakul or Ferro. In DM, Bob said that "The vampires and the Council will pick from a list of neutral emissaries" which is how she was chosen (and it was just Harry's choice in SmF) so we can assume she's on that list, but I think we can also likely assume that there are Independent Signatories that are more politically active and so not considered Neutral parties.
I see Ivy as being present at the arbitration as a party and not the arbiter given that she was attacked by another accords member fairly recently.Oh, Agreed. I think she has been active enough lately to be willing to take part in the talks, even if the Fomor werent likely making themselves the Enemy of the Oblivion War.
Not everybody appreciates Mac's beer. The monstrous heathens.
It's how you know they're bad guys.Because they dont like Mac's beer. What more evidence do you need of their warped inhumanity?
It's how you know they're bad guys.
It is my understanding that Ivy is a member of the Accords in her own right. She is often used as an Arbiter because she is neutral, but I do not think she is actually a full time Arbiter. She could be present as just another Accords member and someone else may serve as an Arbiter if one is needed.
And yet Duke Ortega did like Mac's Beer, even though he only needed blood to survive.
Whoever is the arbiter would need to have enough Power to be able to actually do something about anything that neccesitates involvement.Yes and no. I would argue that respect of the involved parties is most important. The accords were set up by Mab and thus she has a big investment in seeing them remain intact and accepted. If the arbiter reaches a decision or endorses a certain action/view point then she would lend her power to the fulfillment of that outcome.
/Ulfgeir
Whoever is the arbiter would need to have enough Power to be able to actually do something about anything that neccesitates involvement.
/Ulfgeir
Or be backed by a party, or parties. A promise, or contract has magical power in the DV. If the parties involved agreed that a neutral party would be respected as arbiter it would be a bond, one that if broken could come back on the offenders pretty badly.
Or be backed by a party, or parties. A promise, or contract has magical power in the DV. If the parties involved agreed that a neutral party would be respected as arbiter it would be a bond, one that if broken could come back on the offenders pretty badly.Indeed. Case in point: Nic and the events of Skin Game.
Pretty sure if all the parties at the Peace Talks agreed to an Arbiter and then one of the parties crossed that arbiter, every other party would come down on them like a load of bricks. Now that I write that, I kind of want to see it.I think this is more or less the Role Marcone is playing; not actual Arbiter (with the sort of absolute authority they get) because this is a political Discussion and not a Duel, but he /is/ the Host specifically because he has a reputation for Neutrality in the Supernatural world.
Reminds me of the scene in the Eragon series where the Dwarf council punishes one of its members by ignoring him completely no matter what he does. Seeing that dwarf try to get everyones attention and growing more and more frustrated/frantic was extremely gratifying.
I think this is more or less the Role Marcone is playing; not actual Arbiter (with the sort of absolute authority they get) because this is a political Discussion and not a Duel, but he /is/ the Host specifically because he has a reputation for Neutrality in the Supernatural world.Hmmm, I could get behind Marcone as an Arbiter type figure. It would be an interesting context to see him in. It could also lead to a change in his relationship with Dresden. Harry has always thought of him as a ambitious crime lord. Seeing him take on the neutral, peace promoting role might cause a crisis of belief. Especially if Harry is put in the position of enforcing Marcone's decision as Arbiter because of his position as Winter Knight.
Hmmm, I could get behind Marcone as an Arbiter type figure. It would be an interesting context to see him in. It could also lead to a change in his relationship with Dresden. Harry has always thought of him as a ambitious crime lord. Seeing him take on the neutral, peace promoting role might cause a crisis of belief. Especially if Harry is put in the position of enforcing Marcone's decision as Arbiter because of his position as Winter Knight.To be clear, I do Not think Marcone is acting as as Arbiter, because an Arbiter by definition has final Authority over the outcome of the proceedings and Marcone will not. But from the Peace Talks Ch1 we have, we know he is acting as Host because he has built a reputation for Strength and Neutrality (in no small part form the events of Peace Talks).
If Marcone is hosting the peace talks, then all he signed up to do is provide a suitable venue, protect the participants and severely punish/kill any that disrupt the peace talks (in some way contrary to the agreed procedures). That might be a commitment beyond his capability to deliver on, but the presumption is that --- as a free standing lord - he can deliver it. If he fails, his status as a free standing lord would be put at serious risk. Of course if he succeeds, then that also lends a lot to his reputation.
Would Marcone's active war with the Fomor invading his city compromise his neutrality?I don't know that there's any faction in the Dresdenverse that could be considered neutral. Individuals like the Archive are, but she's not an organization.
That doesn't actually answer my question.Doesn't it? In a world without any true neutrality, Marcone's balanced and measured response to things is as "neutral" as things get. He's not going to jeopardize his people and resources, much less his reputation, to betray anyone.
That being said, the only person I see being trusted to be neutral is Mac.
As for Mac, the Accords have their own power. Mac would be backed up by Mab.
Some misunderstandings here are the Arbiter position.
To be an arbiter, you must be an member of the accords. Which means either you are a representative of a supernatural nation or a individual freeholding lord like the Archive or Marcone. By definition, you are either a power, or backed by a power in the supernatural community.
In this context, the arbiter will enforce the conditions of the arbitration. By that I mean Keep the Peace while negotiating and/or enforcing the terms of a dual. In this they are backed up by the weight of public opinion (at least the public opinion of the other accorded powers) who have an interest in enforcing the rules. This is a dangerous commitment at times, which is why many of the lesser powers do not try to act as arbiters.
The arbiter is NOT signing up to enforce the agreements that are the result of an arbitrated negotiation. In the real world, if the US hosts peace talks between France and Vietnam, they are not signing up to force the two participants to do what they promised to do. The supernatural world is no different.
If Marcone is hosting the peace talks, then all he signed up to do is provide a suitable venue, protect the participants and severely punish/kill any that disrupt the peace talks (in some way contrary to the agreed procedures). That might be a commitment beyond his capability to deliver on, but the presumption is that --- as a free standing lord - he can deliver it. If he fails, his status as a free standing lord would be put at serious risk. Of course if he succeeds, then that also lends a lot to his reputation.
Some misunderstandings here are the Arbiter position.I more or less agree with your description of what Marcone's role is going to be, but I really dont think Arbiter is the correct term for it. Arbiter is the term used for what the Archive was during the Duel, which was providing the mechanism of the Duel while Enforcing the terms of the Accords, but it was notably within her purview to Declare one party or the other the Winner or Looser or in Violation of the terms of the Duel (she declared it Void but did not have a witness to definitively call a winner). Marcone is acting as the Host of the Talks, meaning he has to provide for the attendee's needs like food, lodging, etc and is nominally responsible for providing security, at least from Outside threats. But nobody expects him to be able to Enforce much, but since Mab is personally in attendance he shouldnt need to address that sort of internal squabbling, because they'd be insulting the Unseelie Accords before they'd be insulting the Host. At the end of the day it is always Mab that is Enforcing the Accords, that's the crux of how they operate; Out of everybody, the Council or the various Courts or the Erlking or anybody, it is Mab that is the Power and the Threat behind the Accords.
To be an arbiter, you must be an member of the accords. Which means either you are a representative of a supernatural nation or a individual freeholding lord like the Archive or Marcone. By definition, you are either a power, or backed by a power in the supernatural community.
In this context, the arbiter will enforce the conditions of the arbitration. By that I mean Keep the Peace while negotiating and/or enforcing the terms of a dual. In this they are backed up by the weight of public opinion (at least the public opinion of the other accorded powers) who have an interest in enforcing the rules. This is a dangerous commitment at times, which is why many of the lesser powers do not try to act as arbiters.
The arbiter is NOT signing up to enforce the agreements that are the result of an arbitrated negotiation. In the real world, if the US hosts peace talks between France and Vietnam, they are not signing up to force the two participants to do what they promised to do. The supernatural world is no different.
If Marcone is hosting the peace talks, then all he signed up to do is provide a suitable venue, protect the participants and severely punish/kill any that disrupt the peace talks (in some way contrary to the agreed procedures). That might be a commitment beyond his capability to deliver on, but the presumption is that --- as a free standing lord - he can deliver it. If he fails, his status as a free standing lord would be put at serious risk. Of course if he succeeds, then that also lends a lot to his reputation.
Would Marcone's active war with the Fomor invading his city compromise his neutrality?Not in this context, though it's fuzzy on the specifics. I think it just doesnt really matter to this specifically since it's the Fomor that have been repeatedly violating the Accords, so they are arguably at war (or at least at odds) with All the Accords members.
How does that conform with the White Council having it's own security? I mean it could be for when the White Council representatives are not being protected by Marcone, at whatever safe house they use while in Chicago, but that doesn't feel right to me. I think it's more likely that Marcone made an agreement that goes something like this; Marcone will provide external security for the venue while the individual parties are responsible for providing their own security while inside the venue.I think those would more or less be separate issues. Marcone is acting as the Host, so per normal Guest-rights he is responsible for protecting his guests from outside threats, but those rules are less cut & dry when it's a matter of one guest being aggressive toward another (Erlking was well able to declare a friendly combat to the Death, for example). So it would be on Marcone if, say, a local threat were to hassle one of the Accorded Attendee's. But if a pair of underlings got into a brawl it would be a diplomatic matter between those two parties, with the slight getting aimed more at the Accords themselves (and Mab) more than Marcone.
Of course it's highly likely that the parties to the talks supposed to pledge to a non-aggression pact while taking part in the talks, but no one really trusts each other so everyone wants to have their own protection with them. Someone like Ivy would have to power to punish (obliterate) any transgressors of the non-aggression pact. In fact, I could see one or more parties involved; assuming there are more than two, demanding Ivy or some other neutral arbiter; with a similar scary level of destructive magic ability, be hand to insure everyone abides by the agreement.Yup, that's how Carlos described it:
Everyone will be conducting themselves under guest-right, but they’ll all bring their own muscle too.” “Trust but verify,”