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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Rasins on February 07, 2018, 07:38:32 PM
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Okay, this is from the timeline ...
She runs away as soon as she can get away with it and takes up with bad sorts out of sheer rebellion. "She made a couple of bad decisions, and . . . and then it was too late for her to go back." One of her associates includes Justin DuMorne.
We know that DuMorne was a Warden.
According to McCoy, she was to be killed on sight by the Wardens.
So, how long was DuMorne no longer a Warden, or was he a "Bad cop", maybe on the take as a Warden before he got Harry?
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I would say that situation was very similar to Carlos "trying" to hunt down Molly.
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I have a theory that Harry has never meet the real DuMorne! That the person that came to fetch him was a Black Council member and that he knew about Harry because he was friends with Maggie Sr. and her crazy crowd.
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Okay, this is from the timeline ...
We know that DuMorne was a Warden.
According to McCoy, she was to be killed on sight by the Wardens.
So, how long was DuMorne no longer a Warden, or was he a "Bad cop", maybe on the take as a Warden before he got Harry?
This last seems likely enough.
Remember, he took Bob the Skull from Kemmler at some point. Now it so happens that Bob the Skull is under a 'terminate on sight' order from the White Council, probably for good reasons from their POV (terminating Necro-bob is not self-evidently a bad idea).
Yet Justin apparently kept Bob hidden away instead. That's not proof that he was off the rails back then, Harry hasn't terminate Bob either. But the circumstances are also totally different.
It is suggestive, at the least.
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Yeah, Harry didn't find out the WC policy on Bob until around Book 10.
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Yeah, Harry didn't find out the WC policy on Bob until around Book 10.
I got the impression that he knew all along. He buried Bob, and only came back for him after his time with Eb had concluded. My guess is that Bob told him that much in the time between DuMorne's death and the Council showing up.
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Entirely possible but Harry was ignorant of Bob's range of power until Dead Beat.
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Entirely possible but Harry was ignorant of Bob's range of power until Dead Beat.
Sure, but that's because he never stopped to ask Bob details. He doesn't seem to have asked much about DuMorne, either. But he knew to hide Bob from the Wardens, and wait to retrieve him until he was on his own. And he knew after Dead Beat that Bob belonged to Kemmler. So officially knowing they knew about Bob wasn't really news. More like confirming what he'd already deduced.
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I got the impression that he knew all along. He buried Bob, and only came back for him after his time with Eb had concluded. My guess is that Bob told him that much in the time between DuMorne's death and the Council showing up.
That's possible, but there's nothing in the text to support it, and the 'feel' of the conversation with Luccio goes the other way. Bob was always worried about Mab getting her hands on him, in the conversations with Harry, not the Wardens.
We don't know the details of how they met, JB has said Harry became Bob's master at 16, which is part of why Bob is as lecherous as he is, imprinting on a teenaged boy as his new master. But how much Justin ever told him about Bob, or just what, we don't know, and I don't know if even Bob knows about the Council termination order. It might well be part of the data he locked away when he no longer worked for Kemmler.
If Bob did know, at the very least I'd have expected some kind of comment from him on the subject when Harry arrived at Karrin's house in Dead Beat wearing a Warden cloak.
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That's possible, but there's nothing in the text to support it, and the 'feel' of the conversation with Luccio goes the other way. Bob was always worried about Mab getting her hands on him, in the conversations with Harry, not the Wardens.
We don't know the details of how they met, JB has said Harry became Bob's master at 16, which is part of why Bob is as lecherous as he is, imprinting on a teenaged boy as his new master. But how much Justin ever told him about Bob, or just what, we don't know, and I don't know if even Bob knows about the Council termination order. It might well be part of the data he locked away when he no longer worked for Kemmler.
If Bob did know, at the very least I'd have expected some kind of comment from him on the subject when Harry arrived at Karrin's house in Dead Beat wearing a Warden cloak.
I'm not seeing where Harry learned anything new.
The necromancer Kemmler had such a spirit in his service, a sort of miniature version of the Archive. Nowhere near as powerful, but it had been studying and learning beside wizards for generations, and the things it was capable of were appalling.” She shook her head.
I took a sip of tea, because otherwise the gulp would have been suspicious. She was talking about Bob. And she was right about what Bob was capable of doing. When I’d unlocked the personality he’d taken on under some of his former owners, he’d nearly killed me.
“The Wardens destroyed it, of course,” she said.
No, they hadn’t. Justin DuMorne, former Warden, hadn’t destroyed the skull. He’d smuggled it from Kemmler’s lab and kept it in his own—until I’d burned him to death, and taken it from him in turn.
That seems to be the entirety of their Bob conversation. There was no standing kill order with the Council because they believed it to be destroyed. As far as they're concerned, Bob was dead for forty years.
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I could see Kemmler as a situation where a lot of people were deputized as Wardens, then took off the grey afterward.
I could also see a battle like that being traumatic enough that some Wardens would just outright retire.
So I can buy a couple ways DuMorne could've been a Warden at that point, then left the service.
We also don't know when Ebenezer found out about DuMorne's connection with Maggie Sr., or his general dastardliness. He doesn't say, "I knew at the time that Maggie had taken up with DuMorne, and it was well known that DuMorne was a bad guy at the time." In fact, a Senior Council member in Summer Knight is able to make the argument that Harry made up everything about DuMorne, so his being a bad guy isn't universally known or accepted.
Most likely, Ebenezer is talking about things he only learned long after the fact.
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I could see Kemmler as a situation where a lot of people were deputized as Wardens, then took off the grey afterward.
I could also see a battle like that being traumatic enough that some Wardens would just outright retire.
So I can buy a couple ways DuMorne could've been a Warden at that point, then left the service.
We also don't know when Ebenezer found out about DuMorne's connection with Maggie Sr., or his general dastardliness. He doesn't say, "I knew at the time that Maggie had taken up with DuMorne, and it was well known that DuMorne was a bad guy at the time." In fact, a Senior Council member in Summer Knight is able to make the argument that Harry made up everything about DuMorne, so his being a bad guy isn't universally known or accepted.
Most likely, Ebenezer is talking about things he only learned long after the fact.
Personally I think DuMorne was at that dinner party that Eb attended. But there's no evidence for it. I do think if he was, he might have already been a retired warden.
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He doesn't seem to have asked much about DuMorne, either. But he knew to hide Bob from the Wardens, and wait to retrieve him until he was on his own.
It occurs to me that when Bob told Harry to bury his the skull between killing Justin and being taken in for trial, he was taking an awful risk of being left buried indefinitely if the Wardens had just executed Harry. I wonder if he knew enough to predict Eb would step up, or it was just an act of desperation to go with a strong chance of being buried forever over a certainty of being destroyed if he was caught with Harry?
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It occurs to me that when Bob told Harry to bury his the skull between killing Justin and being taken in for trial, he was taking an awful risk of being left buried indefinitely if the Wardens had just executed Harry. I wonder if he knew enough to predict Eb would step up, or it was just an act of desperation to go with a strong chance of being buried forever over a certainty of being destroyed if he was caught with Harry?
Probably a gamble. But someone randomly finding it is better odds than surviving the wardens.
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Bob's already hundreds of years old. He might not like being buried (he whines about it in the margins of the RPG book), but he can take it and it's preferable to the Wardens finding him and destroying him.
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It occurs to me that when Bob told Harry to bury his the skull between killing Justin and being taken in for trial,
When was it said that this was Bob's idea?
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When was it said that this was Bob's idea?
There isnt any text or WOJ that says he was specifically buried much less whose idea it was; we dont actually know who hid him or how. One of the standing theories is that Lea took care of it, since WOJ has her nearby throughout, she did as much with Harry's cache of stuff in Changes, and Bob seemed to really liker her despite his fear of Mab and Winter. She's also one of the few people who should have been able to easily hide it from any investigating Wardens.
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There's a margin dialog between Bob and Harry in the RPG sourcebook:
<Harry> While it’s “fun” to consider possible death curses, it’s likely that the details of the actual casting will be mostly improv.
<Bob> But your mom's was so complex...
<Harry> BOB. Stop. Talking. Now. Or I bury you in a hole for several years.
<Bob> You already did that, Harry.
<Harry> AGAIN!
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There's a margin dialog between Bob and Harry in the RPG sourcebook:
<Harry> While it’s “fun” to consider possible death curses, it’s likely that the details of the actual casting will be mostly improv.
<Bob> But your mom's was so complex...
<Harry> BOB. Stop. Talking. Now. Or I bury you in a hole for several years.
<Bob> You already did that, Harry.
<Harry> AGAIN!
Ah, nice catch, I stand corrected. Ill throw the caveat that the RPG has several changes and is supposed to be considered something of a parallel universe, but those are usually more changes to relative power levels and to who Knows What (since in the RPG Billy seems to know EVERYTHING)
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All this talk of Bob, has me wondering about Evil Bob. Where are you, Evil Bob?
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All this talk of Bob, has me wondering about Evil Bob. Where are you, Evil Bob?
Living with Butters...
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He buried Bob, and only came back for him after his time with Eb had concluded.
I don't remember this being stated—is it a Word of Jim somewhere? Or is it kind of a generally accepted theory? Because a lot of my own thoughts about Bob have to do with the timeline of Harry acquiring him and why he did in the first place.
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I don't remember this being stated—is it a Word of Jim somewhere? Or is it kind of a generally accepted theory? Because a lot of my own thoughts about Bob have to do with the timeline of Harry acquiring him and why he did in the first place.
All the actual novels say is a poetic Pulled from the Ashes but makes no mention of the time after or the recovery.
As Mr Death kindly pointed out to me, we have this from the RPG that seems to corroborate the general theory that he buried Bob and returned years later after his time with Ebenezer.
There's a margin dialog between Bob and Harry in the RPG sourcebook:
<Harry> While it’s “fun” to consider possible death curses, it’s likely that the details of the actual casting will be mostly improv.
<Bob> But your mom's was so complex...
<Harry> BOB. Stop. Talking. Now. Or I bury you in a hole for several years.
<Bob> You already did that, Harry.
<Harry> AGAIN!
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All the actual novels say is a poetic Pulled from the Ashes but makes no mention of the time after or the recovery.
As Mr Death kindly pointed out to me, we have this from the RPG that seems to corroborate the general theory that he buried Bob and returned years later after his time with Ebenezer.
I have no idea how I missed that in this thread. That's what I get for opening up multiple tabs.
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Ah, nice catch, I stand corrected. Ill throw the caveat that the RPG has several changes and is supposed to be considered something of a parallel universe, but those are usually more changes to relative power levels and to who Knows What (since in the RPG Billy seems to know EVERYTHING)
I don't have the RPG, so I wouldn't have been thinking of that. I'd swear I recall something specific about Bob telling Harry to hide him from the Wardens. I don't see it in Serack's WOJ index though. I'll have to have a go over CD again at some point; I have a feeling it might have been based off of something in there.
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The reason I asked for a JB cite was because we actually know very little about just what happened when it all hit the fan back then with Justin, Elaine, and Harry. Harry revealed a little bit of it when he told that story to Lea back in Ghost Story, but we still don't know much.
We don't even know for sure if Harry actually broke the First Law or not in that fight. Even Harry doesn't seem to recall all the details, even he might not be certain. Or at least, nothing I've seen reveals anything much.
We also don't know much in detail about how Harry met Bob or just what Harry did after that fight was over. I don't know that we even know how long it took for the Council to track Harry down after it all went down, or when they found out he existed, or what.
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The reason I asked for a JB cite was because we actually know very little about just what happened when it all hit the fan back then with Justin, Elaine, and Harry. Harry revealed a little bit of it when he told that story to Lea back in Ghost Story, but we still don't know much.
We don't even know for sure if Harry actually broke the First Law or not in that fight. Even Harry doesn't seem to recall all the details, even he might not be certain. Or at least, nothing I've seen reveals anything much.
We also don't know much in detail about how Harry met Bob or just what Harry did after that fight was over. I don't know that we even know how long it took for the Council to track Harry down after it all went down, or when they found out he existed, or what.
We dont really know details but there have been enough independent supernatural entities that were able to detect the Lawbreaker on him that I think we can be pretty certain. Granted some of it might be from simple exposure to HWWBh.
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I remember somewhere in the first two books Harry is talking to someone or something and they say that he has some dark taint on him. He says that its not all his and the thing replies that some of it is. It might have been Chanzagaroth, but I am not too sure.
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I remember somewhere in the first two books Harry is talking to someone or something and they say that he has some dark taint on him. He says that its not all his and the thing replies that some of it is. It might have been Chanzagaroth, but I am not too sure.
The Loa in DM:
Ulsharavas peered at me and said, "First. I don't work for bokkor."
"I'm not a bokkor," I protested.
"You aren't a houngun. You aren't a mambo. That makes you a sorcerer."
"Wizard," I said. "I'm with the White Council."
The doll tilted her head. "You're stained," she said. "I can feel black magic on you."
"It's a long story," I said. "But mostly it isn't mine."
"Some of it is."
I frowned at the doll and then nodded. "Yeah. I've made a bad call or two."
"But honest," Ulsharavas noted. "Well enough.
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Thanks Q. I may have listened to that as I was setting up my playlists and gotten a bit confused. I am sure that basically this alludes to Harry having perverted magic in some way, which we could assume was, using it to kill Justin.
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There was that 3rdEye addict in SF that was able to spot HWWB's influence on him. Not seeing anything specific in the Chauncy FM scene.
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Third eye gave people a measure of wizard sight, I wonder how many were driven crazy. A bunch of mortal driven mad by the same potion. I could see them being used in some kind of ritual, as sacrifices or cultists.
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Third eye gave people a measure of wizard sight, I wonder how many were driven crazy. A bunch of mortal driven mad by the same potion. I could see them being used in some kind of ritual, as sacrifices or cultists.
I just wonder what the Council would think of the three-eye potion, if it started being widely distributed. It doesn't in itself violate a Law of Magic, but I'll bet the Wardens would be after whoever was doing it.
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I just wonder what the Council would think of the three-eye potion, if it started being widely distributed. It doesn't in itself violate a Law of Magic, but I'll bet the Wardens would be after whoever was doing it.
I could see a case being made that the addictive nature of the drug could be considered to have violated the third law.
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I just wonder what the Council would think of the three-eye potion, if it started being widely distributed. It doesn't in itself violate a Law of Magic, but I'll bet the Wardens would be after whoever was doing it.
I'd say it's dancing around the mind magic laws... Also since the one guy could see He Who Walks Before's mark on Harry there is the possibility they can actually communicate with Outsiders, violating another law.
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I think they'd probably consider it along the lines of, "It's not technically in violation of the law, but it's wrong enough that we're going to step in."
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I think they'd probably consider it along the lines of, "It's not technically in violation of the law, but it's wrong enough that we're going to step in."
I dont think they'd go after the users for violating anything, and honestly since it's all consensual I dont htink the relevant Laws would apply.
Of course, there are plenty of things that the Council doenst like and will go after people for that doesnt fall under one of the Seven Laws, and I have to think they'd take issue with ANY potion (or other working magic) to be mass-distributed, regardless of the nature of it's effects. A magic weight-loss potion or anti-wrinkle cream would be just as dangerous as Magic Drugs, to their POV.
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I wonder what would happen if a variation of this potion was used on those that posses minor magical gifts. I doubt it would enhance their power, but it could help them develop their limited gifts.
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A magic weight-loss potion or anti-wrinkle cream would be just as dangerous as Magic Drugs, to their POV.
Harry did once try to brew a hair-growing potion when he was trying to grow a beard. Apparently it worked, but not as intended. Regardless, Harry could conceivably have a cure for freaking BALDNESS. Do you have any idea how ridiculously valuable that would be? Even if he just had a salon, he could charge thousands per "treatment," and have a line out the door morning, noon, and night.
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Harry did once try to brew a hair-growing potion when he was trying to grow a beard. Apparently it worked, but not as intended. Regardless, Harry could conceivably have a cure for freaking BALDNESS. Do you have any idea how ridiculously valuable that would be? Even if he just had a salon, he could charge thousands per "treatment," and have a line out the door morning, noon, and night.
For the first Day. Then he'd have the FDA and CDC breaking down his door :P
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He'd be better off doing something on the downlow -- find a really vain celebrity and become his go-to guy for things like that. You think Bob couldn't come up with a magic wrinkle cream?
Harry could be filthy rich if he didn't have so many scruples about how he uses his magic.
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That's not even particularly unscrupulous; it's providing a service. He could even flat-out tell them it's a magic potion. Of course, now it's redundant, because he has a sack of diamonds, but the dude could've made enough money to hire a personal army before he was thirty. Honestly, I would've figured out how to monetize Bob's knowledge the minute I got him.
...Maybe there's a good reason magic isn't real.
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I'd say it's dancing around the mind magic laws... Also since the one guy could see He Who Walks Before's mark on Harry there is the possibility they can actually communicate with Outsiders, violating another law.
Interesting point. The Seventh Law is the most tricky to deal with of them all, it's the one that can get you killed for reading the wrong book. OTOH, I doubt that actually happens very often, for various reasons.
I don't think the Sight seeing Outsider taint would count as a violation, though. That would potentially put the whole Council in violation of its own law at any given moment. But the ability to see the taint might be a channel that opens the possibility of a violation, so I could see that as one reason the Council would want to shut down production.
Besides the fact that the stuff can easily drive weak-willed people nuts, as well.
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Interesting point. The Seventh Law is the most tricky to deal with of them all, it's the one that can get you killed for reading the wrong book. OTOH, I doubt that actually happens very often, for various reasons.
I don't think the Sight seeing Outsider taint would count as a violation, though. That would potentially put the whole Council in violation of its own law at any given moment. But the ability to see the taint might be a channel that opens the possibility of a violation, so I could see that as one reason the Council would want to shut down production.
Besides the fact that the stuff can easily drive weak-willed people nuts, as well.
Agreed, it grants the Sight, which is not in itself against the Laws, though it does give them the glimpse of the supernatural world they'd need to start walking those dark paths on their own, but there's nothing pushing them toward it vs the Light at that point (all other factors being equal).
That's not even particularly unscrupulous; it's providing a service. He could even flat-out tell them it's a magic potion. Of course, now it's redundant, because he has a sack of diamonds, but the dude could've made enough money to hire a personal army before he was thirty. Honestly, I would've figured out how to monetize Bob's knowledge the minute I got him.
...Maybe there's a good reason magic isn't real.
Keep in mind that he gets a ton of crap for just advertising in the Yellow Pages. If he started selling actual Magic (as opposed to selling services that could technically be done without it, allowing for plausible deniability) there would be a slew of Interersts out there who might take offence and "Ask" him to stop; the Council would be in Line, but maybe not in front. Anyone with an interest in keeping magic secret is going to object to marketing actual magic items/potions. They wouldnt blink if you used it to, say, win the Lottery or game the stock market, but spreading around actual Proof of magic (in the form of a magical product others could independently test) is a whole other Danger.
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For the first Day. Then he'd have the FDA and CDC breaking down his door :P
Naw .... He could (probably) just give them the list of fairly innocuous ingredients. Heck, even give them an actual sample. Let them analyze it. They'd say it has no reason for working, but as long as it does work, people will still buy it.
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Naw .... He could (probably) just give them the list of fairly innocuous ingredients. Heck, even give them an actual sample. Let them analyze it. They'd say it has no reason for working, but as long as it does work, people will still buy it.
So long as he kept a clean shop and passed inspection, and didn't specifically market his business as treating any disease, there's no reason for the FDA to come a-knockin'. There are plenty of holistic businesses operating all over the place. He could just say it's head massage mixed with oils and aromatherapy, and show them what's in his potions. Once word of mouth spread, the Bald Community (I assume it's a community) would be lined up around the block.
On a more serious note, imagine what that would do for people undergoing chemotherapy.
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Oh, it would be HUGE.
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View from inside Dresden's Hair Restoration and Baldness Therapy: https://youtu.be/uYBce9Gsz7g?t=35s
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Naw .... He could (probably) just give them the list of fairly innocuous ingredients. Heck, even give them an actual sample. Let them analyze it. They'd say it has no reason for working, but as long as it does work, people will still buy it.
COnsidering some of hte actual ingredients can be things like sandpaper and motor oil, I dont really think they'd give him that much benefit of the doubt.
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COnsidering some of hte actual ingredients can be things like sandpaper and motor oil, I dont really think they'd give him that much benefit of the doubt.
And what would happen?
The line would still be waiting, and eventually the crowd would change the minds of the "authorities". Just look at prohibition.
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And what would happen?
The line would still be waiting, and eventually the crowd would change the minds of the "authorities". Just look at prohibition.
There would be no line. I dont care what you claim your magic potion will do, once it becomes known that it has a random hodge-podge of entirely poisonous ingredients and not simply debatable bad for you like drugs or alcohol, it will be viewed as equivalent to "Weight-loss by Crack Addiction". That's not to say there wouldnt be some takers out there, but they'd be the same sort that would be willing to pay for the sort of back-alley plastic surgery you read about where they are getting injected with Concrete mix and fix-a-flat injections (http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/fake-doctor-injected-cement-and-fix-a-flat-into-patients-butt-6544305)
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I think this is one where we'll have to agree to disagree. LOL
Results matter.
And Sandpaper? For hair growth. Pshaw!!
LOL
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In the real world you have to get approved by government agencies, and your product goes under testing. Harry would have to sell it on the black market... For some things that would make him rich, but I doubt selling a cure for baldness on the black market would get him a ton of money. Especially since you can just get hair implants and grow your own hair now.
If Harry had no morals his black market product would be love potions like Susan took. Rich people who have everything except for the person they desire, but get turned down by would pay vast amounts of money. If someone is willing to pay hundreds of millions for a painting they will pay a huge price so they can possess the person of their desires.
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In the real world you have to get approved by government agencies, and your product goes under testing. Harry would have to sell it on the black market... For some things that would make him rich, but I doubt selling a cure for baldness on the black market would get him a ton of money. Especially since you can just get hair implants and grow your own hair now.
Indeed, this was my thought as well.
If Harry had no morals his black market product would be love potions like Susan took. Rich people who have everything except for the person they desire, but get turned down by would pay vast amounts of money. If someone is willing to pay hundreds of millions for a painting they will pay a huge price so they can possess the person of their desires.
Agreed, though I strongly suspect that potion would be viewed as a Grey area in the Laws at best, given that it's introducing foreign drives and motivations to a person's psychy. You start selling that (which would amount to a magical date rape drug) and I expect that would push it over the edge in the WC's mind.