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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kris.vickers on January 30, 2018, 10:13:18 PM
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I have been re-listening to the books out of order, and I realized that the twist in Changes (Harry breaking his back), may have had a seed planted many books ago. I cannot remember which book, Harry was talking about how Titania could be looking out for Harry's interests by leaving him paralyzed in a hospital to save him from death somewhere else. Also, I believe the same book, he was talking to Fix and a similar line of conversation came up. Something like 'ending up paralyzed not feeling anything below the waist.' This specific of a topic and regarding a Queen of Fae seems very purposeful. Anyone catch this before, and if so, thoughts?
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I'm beginning to think that there are some players doing things for Harry's good that Harry might not think so at that moment.
Jim has admitted to seeing new things 3 books in advance. So, it would be in line with that WOJ.
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Welcome to the forums. I think the reference might be from Small Favor.
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Thanks for the welcome. And yes, Small Favor sounds right. and on a separate note, when Jim has stated that Mirror Mirror is 1 choice different, has that been clarified as to when? Because I think the choice to rebel against Justin would be a great one. A brand new Dresden right from the start
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The immediate one he is referring to from Mirror Mirror is as happening near the end of Grave Peril. It likely aligns with telling Susan "I Love You" or not when she is in vampire form. I further speculated that Harry in -Grave Peril will eat his own ghost.
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I do need to re-read that one if that will be the split point. Although seems to me there are more life changing-ier decisions that he could've picked, though(his characters, not my business.) love is a great one. I fall back to the Buffy episode where Buffy never comes to sunnydale, also the Doctor Who episode where donna makes the wrong turn. Anyone have any HUGE moments that without Harry there; or Harry making an evil choice would have massive implications?
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Because I think the choice to rebel against Justin would be a great one. A brand new Dresden right from the start
I'm beginning to believe that my theory of many cycles may apply. We will get to see many different pivot points in the series and that there at some point will be a new beginning. I like to think though that the Dresden Files we are reading is the resultant equation after a great time war in the background.
Another way to view it would be that there are many different parallel bubbles/realities that are 'mixing'/bouncing into each other. And, we will soon get to find out the 'correct bubbles' that define the path of events we are reading.
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Another way to view it would be that there are many different parallel bubbles/realities that are 'mixing'/bouncing into each other. And, we will soon get to find out the 'correct bubbles' that define the path of events we are reading
Good point, and to follow on that. A great way to make sure Harry(himself) and anyone else knows what the right bubbles are or were would be to write down what actually happened, which could be what we've been reading the entire time. A Harry that is trying to get it all down for posterity. So possibly we've been reading the aftermath of the BAT from Harry's pov, who could be lost in the flow of time somewhen, and whose only connection is Ivy who is making sure that communication is being transcribed.
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Did that throw you for a loop?
I guess not. Ooh, you are really REALLY good at this. (I've seen the Edit following the quote.)
Now go read The Chronicles of Amber :)
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Dang, that just made my day. Thank you.
From who knows when I've loved complicated plotlines. and then when I started in on Dresden Files and his youtube interviews, I saw that he had a complicated plotline. With a BAT plotted since his 20s, he knows how its gonna end. With that assumed, I try to work backward. Same as what I'm doing with the Marvel MCU. Harry has to be at a certain level before each books starts. Therefore each book has to bring him to that level for the next one. I would love to see end of Storm Front Harry think about what to do about the problems at the beginning of Skin Game. But my thoughts are simply this: What level is Harry after the BAT? Because that is probably who's writing. The details he gives about things are so clear because he is seeing these 'bubbles' right then, even though time usually fades these details for everyone.
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Let's take one of these Harry's to Demonreach, imagine if Harry finds himself as an inmate in Demonreach. He talks with his prior self, and tells him to piss off. And of course, our Harry wants to piss on him as a joke :)
The prisoner Harry at some point needs to exchange positions with our Harry, with our Harry going along the course of events that Prisoner Harry went through. This would add another goal in Cold Days. To either jail brake a not ready PrisonerHarry, or kill the PrisonerHarry with the banefire.
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I like this. But, I'd nudge it further and suggest that since we don't know how far into the skid Jim will steer, theoretically we can call anyone that hasn't been identified as Dresden. The british sounding guy in the prison, cowl, even demonreach itself. Lots of people have their evidence loaded and pointed towards the original Merlin. But if there is time manipulation coming, then I'd like to suggest the movie Paycheck's premise. Everything Ben Affleck critically needed was provided from a future version of him. So lets say that Harry is at the End of the BAT, and (mixing my movies in a blender here) pulls a Matthew Mcconaughey in Interstellar, sending the past messages to produce the proper outcome. Jim has let us see through Dresden's eyes and thought process about the boundaries of his world that have become further and further out. Now the outer gates and outsiders are the limit. After that...?
Any nagging little bits from previous books come up that by themselves are innocent but by looking at them from a point of view of hints at what's beyond the outer gates? Or what can be bigger than Odin, or Hades, or angels, or nickel heads or knights?
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Well, if you read the end of book 10 of the Amber series, I think you might get a glimpse of what Harry becomes. :)
Amber is a cosmic Order vs. Chaos fight. There were hints that there was something else (abyss). The author died so the series was left hanging with Merlin becoming...
In the Amber books, I don't think Merlin ever really encounters himself. There is a Cowl in Amber... I was about to ruin the plot. Sorry.
(It's another thing that is similar between Dresden Files and Amber) (Cowl with the sounds of their voice muffled by a spell) (saying "I Love you" plot tied into it) You will find many things 'borrowed' from Amber to include travel within the nevernever to parallel worlds.
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Anyone have any HUGE moments that without Harry there; or Harry making an evil choice would have massive implications?
I misread this and started writing a lengthy post about the many, many things that could have changed as a result of Grave Peril before I realized you were talking about alternate split-universe points.
I've long campaigned for Harry choosing to use Amoracchius against Lea in the graveyard as a candidate for a split point. I won't tire those who have read it many times before, but basically the entirety of Grave Peril plays out differently if he doesn't make the Sword vulnerable (Michael may not have been involved; Harry may not have gone to the party; Susan might've just died (thereby negating Maggie/all of Changes/Blood Rites' side plot); the war with the Red Court would've been delayed, which would have given the vamps longer to prepare; there's a whole lot that can be altered).
There's plenty of room for speculation; many hold that it's Harry's confession of love that is the split. I disagree, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
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After reading Amber, there is s huge plot surrounding "I love you" or at least it not being said in time. So, I do think the grave peril choice will be wrapped up in it.
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...many hold that it's Harry's confession of love that is the split.
It worked out for Doctor Who. sortof. ;)
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I lean to the "I love you" point. But, another point to consider is the moment around which he fireballs the party.
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I do like the fireball scenario more than the words. Saying vs showing at that point. and of course actions speak way louder than words. So to say he ended up wwaayyy down the line committing genocide on the red court, it can be said that he did it for Susan just as much as Maggie.
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Jim has stated alterna-Harry will have a goatee, right? Did alterna-Harry pull an Abed, realize that he was in the Darkest Timeline, and buy into the eyepatch and beard thing?
That, I think, is the true question of Mirror, Mirror.
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I believe the decision will be AFTER the I love you. I think He's going to let Susan stay with Bianca and avoid the war. That would be huge on LOTS of levels.
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Yes, that can still be very interesting. But of course, just like the news, something has to be covered. A slow news day will give coverage to the lesser issues, or even things that need not have coverage getting exposure.
So if the White Council were not to have all their resources being occupied, and diminished by a war. What would they be concentrating on? Their attention would be focused on something... what is it?
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One thing that I wondered about was this eyepatch and goatee thing. Evidently the entire mirror mirror earth has this as their motif, I've argued that if this is the case that Earth has such a different vibe then I wonder about the temporal lines going into the past and back. That the Harry's choice has such affected the culture of humanity. It is one reason I've argued that something from the future =>past. Bonnie, Bob, Harry's allies, Harry?
The motif comes from a star trek show by same name.
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One thing that I wondered about was this eyepatch and goatee thing. Evidently the entire mirror mirror earth has this as their motif, I've argued that if this is the case that Earth has such a different vibe then I wonder about the temporal lines going into the past and back. That the Harry's choice has such affected the culture of humanity. It is one reason I've argued that something from the future =>past. Bonnie, Bob, Harry's allies, Harry?
The motif comes from a star trek show by same name.
I think that the eye patch, and goatee will revolve around Harry, and those most affected by his decision. I don't think the entire Earth will be changed in some way where good people are now bad, and bad people now good.
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It's going to depend, I think. Jim has said two somewhat contradictory things. First that it's going to be goatees and eyepatches, which suggests that it's a Star Trek mirror universe where everyone is radically different. Like the episodes of the show. But he's also talked about the Choice Harry makes, which suggests that he's the primary focus. And as Michael has said, if Harry goes bad, Michael will be there to stop him. Likewise many of the other characters would not change that much. Depending on what and how, we may see changes to Thomas, Murphy, the Alphas, maybe Eb, to make them different from the kind of people we know, but others, say, Morgan, the Merlin, probably Mab, would be the kind of people we already know, with the difference being how they react to Harry.
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It was the entire culture or feel of the mirror mirror universe that had me speculating about some time related feedback loops that arise post choice but then affect distant past. It is like Harry's choice created a new universe from that present on, but the mirror mirror universe started to create some of its own past that then gets propagated back to the future. We know there are entities that straddle the timeline at the same time so the twinned universe could be propagated via them or any time travelers going into the past, etc.
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I could see that. Our Harry will eventually break the time law. And hilarity will ensue. We have to assume that if there was a split decision, and the alternate Harry in that bubble still thinks along the same lines, just with a more pessimistic view, we must also assume that this altHarry will break the time law as well. Possibly even more if he's taken out those who would come after him for it. (WC) So the propagation of his alt-ness would ripple even into the past that presumably both worlds shared. And by shared I don't mean interacting, just that they were they same until that split.
Though, the theories about Cowl being Harry fit better if he's the altHarry.
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I like. I like the cowl being ttharry. Harry and his line of Harry's have to take out or one up the other set.
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Well, Back to the future part 2 did almost the same thing. trying to repair a decision that split into 2 futures. and the agents from 1 future were cleaning up the mess from the other.
But an evil Harry who (I would think) wouldn't care nearly as much for the rules of magic, would go back in time for no telling what, and cause no telling how much collateral damage.
The ending to Bioshock Infinite comes to mind. (along with many repeat storylines. Edge of tomorrow, groundhog day, ARQ on Netflix((AMAZING EXAMPLE))) with all the plot happening because the higher level of comprehension isn't there until, like the quote from Half Life "the right man in the wrong place can make all the difference in the world."
All it would take is one change to alter things back towards the right path.
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I have been re-listening to the books out of order, and I realized that the twist in Changes (Harry breaking his back), may have had a seed planted many books ago. I cannot remember which book, Harry was talking about how Titania could be looking out for Harry's interests by leaving him paralyzed in a hospital to save him from death somewhere else. Also, I believe the same book, he was talking to Fix and a similar line of conversation came up. Something like 'ending up paralyzed not feeling anything below the waist.' This specific of a topic and regarding a Queen of Fae seems very purposeful. Anyone catch this before, and if so, thoughts?
Yea jives with what others are saying. The whole "the burned hand teaches best' line and Molly coming under his tutelage was one thing I wondered about. She has multiple futures but if you notice ALL are influenced by her exposure to Harry Dresden or lack of. I'd wonder... if Harry had never become afraid of fire would his skill with it have gone up with that healthy dose of respect well enough to not burn her face vs otherwise? The other obvious thing is that was the moment he let Lasciel manifest herself, ergo learning to fight her off in reply.
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Also, as far as foreshadowing. Harry recovered from death in Arctis Tor for weeks. Once Mab started trying to murder him daily for a set numbers of days, 60-70-ish. That seems innocuous yet vaguely important, the number of days, or the progress he made in that time. Of course, as a final product after that "training" could never compare to what he'd have managed to train up to on his own. Death is the great motivator. There were only a few examples given to us as what types of encounters he faced. But I would assume that Mab what throw seemingly random death at him, that wasn't really random at all. Events coordinated to force him to use this magic over that, to use brains over brawn, to use environment over skills. Harry is now on a level that I believe he absolutely could not achieve on his own.
All because of a deal. I think that another deal may come up.
Fae love games and bargains. Who's to say Mab won't be offered a deal that's too sweet to pass up? The trade however would be giving up her knight? Harry's already an "indentured servant", and historically indentured servants contracts were purchased en masse in some cases.
I'd love to see Odin buy out Mab's hold on Harry. Have Harry swear fealty to Odin. Or even have Odin nullify the deal altogether, just to have Harry owe him one. Or even Chauncey come back and trade Harry with Hitler... Thoughts?
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Trade Harry with Hitler?
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Trade Harry with Hitler?
I have several questions.
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I am still pondering the equality of the transaction.
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Well, I thought that might shake up things.
I meant that if Chauncey has connections in Hell. And Mab probably has ties to those movers and shakers in Hell. Then, nothing is really out of the realm of possibility.