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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on January 20, 2018, 06:08:28 PM

Title: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 20, 2018, 06:08:28 PM
I'm reading the Chronicles of Amber.  Jim was/is a fan of the series playing RGP based on the series.  Please join me as I listen to the series audiobooks.  I'll be jotting down similarities between The Chronicles of Amber and Dresden Files.

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“What I want to know is, how did you meet the goddess Priscellie and Fred/Iago and others? And thank her again for doing the butcher block pod casts.”
Fred and I played a text-based internet RPG together called AmberMUSH, back in the early 90s when the internet was just beginning to hit. We did not get along well.  I was at odds with a friend of Fred’s, and Fred is the kind of guy who is fiercely loyal to his friends. We eventually worked things out,


Protagonist=Corwin

Nine Princes of Amber:
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The Guns of Amber
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Sign of the Unicorn
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The Hand of Oberon
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Courts of Chaos
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Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: Arjan on January 20, 2018, 09:11:41 PM
I read the first series as a child several times and the second series as a student when they were released.

Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on January 22, 2018, 10:02:47 AM
I never read this series.  I'll have to give it a listen.  I'm getting a little tired of the Iron Druid series.  I just started the sixth book and it feels a little meh to me.  The next Alex Verus book doesn't come out until July and I don't know when the next Rivers of London novel will come out.  Any other suggestions? 
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 22, 2018, 04:08:46 PM
This really is a good series.  I really enjoy listening to it. I'd get the ones on Audible.  I think told by a Spanish named guy.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: jonas on January 22, 2018, 06:03:59 PM
When you get to it pls explain Walking in these Amber books..
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 23, 2018, 12:13:49 AM
Walking is a main part of the books.  It is something that the Princes, Princess of Oberon can do after they travel a "Pattern" in the capital.

The Walking allows them to travel to parallel worlds.  And even if some of these worlds, cities/civilizations are long dead; they can walk and recreate these worlds.  They call this a 'shadow' of this other world.  Shadows of themselves can even exist.  So Corwin's presence in some of these worlds if they leave enough of an impression would leave a shadow of him that would exist aside from Corwin prime.

They simply travel like you and me down a road, etc in a car, a wagon, etc.  They add/subtract their surroundings in a way until they get to their desired location.  Sometimes they just go out exploring, with no destination in mind.  It's a innate ability but one they have to get tuned in with by walking the Pattern.

Harry 'walking' would be him going to Star Wars universe, then to Star Trek universe, Marvel, etc.  He can do all that and more.  If the Star Trek civilization goes extinct, or maybe the galaxy is eaten by the black hole, Harry could recreate this 'shadow' galaxy.  It isn't the same as the orginal but a close approximation.  And the shadow, ever so slight, would exist prior to Harry even 'recreating' it. He would just have to strengthen its reflection.

Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: jonas on January 23, 2018, 04:05:03 AM
*Maniacal Laughing*  I see indeed...
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: Kindler on January 23, 2018, 03:24:23 PM
I never read this series.  I'll have to give it a listen.  I'm getting a little tired of the Iron Druid series.  I just started the sixth book and it feels a little meh to me.  The next Alex Verus book doesn't come out until July and I don't know when the next Rivers of London novel will come out.  Any other suggestions?

I had a similar reaction; my sense was that the author knew a whole lot of Irish mythology, and was really, really excited to tell everyone about it, but not much else. Hard to get through some of the books, which feel like "I went to a place, and a thing happened; I went to another place, and another thing happened; I went to a third place, and a third thing happened; the book is now over." And once the perspectives start shifting and the author made the decision to make all the other characters present tense for some ungodly reason, I just started to get mad. I still generally liked them, but there were an awful lot of warts to look past.

Honestly, I guess my biggest complaint was that it just wasn't Dresden, which I suppose isn't fair.

For weirdness (and I do mean weirdness), I'd say check out the John and Dave series (John Dies at the End, This Book is Full of Spiders (Seriously Dude, Don't Touch It), and a third with a name that's too ridiculous for me to remember). The first one was written bizarrely, with no real cohesive plot; a lot of things just sort of happen, because it was originally a web novel with sporadic posting that got picked up for publication. If you can get past that, it's a whole lot of fun. The following two books are tight, linear narratives. They're billed as horror-comedy, but it's Cosmic Horror-Comedy, which makes it closer to urban fantasy than horror, in my opinion. There's not much else like that series.

Most of the straight fantasy stuff I'd recommend that's coming out isn't released yet. But there should be some good high fantasy in the next year for major publishers, and a few urban fantasy things on the self-publishing marketplace that is far better than most of the tripe that's available in the genre.

Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 23, 2018, 08:47:11 PM
Yeah Jonas, many of our out there theories on parallel realities, time travel, multiple identities of the same person, etc, they all have a firm basis in Amber.  So, I think we can run with Amber cosmology as a base for Dresden Files.  I think it fits in general.

Corwin and the sons and daughters of Amber even visit Earth. So, we could even have Amber characters on Earth during the Dresden Files.  Hey, Mac could be a Amber prince himself.  Maybe not, but still.

I'm going to view the Dresden Files as either long after Amber's destruction, or coinciding with Amber's destruction, or something like it.

I really have to read more.  I'm still on third book.  Haven't listened to more of it, as I chose to argue with EG.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 24, 2018, 03:04:14 PM
I've added The Hand of Oberon.
It touches upon house thresholds, blood rituals, and blood that defiles and makes vulnerable The Pattern.  The Pattern and Dworkin's fate, strength, and weakness is intertwined.  Dworkin has a child Oberon, who has children, the Princes and Princess, they can have children but do sparingly.  Apparently any of these three generation's blood can cause great damage to The Pattern.

I think Jim is using this to create a similar vulnerability to Arctis Tor.

I included a bit about familial relationships in a spoiler in OP

The Hand of Oberon
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Ooh, thinking more about the blood of the bloodlines.  What would have happened if either Molly or Murphy's blood (should they qualify as Queen blood) would have been spilled on/at the tower.  It could make sense then that a way to free Lea would be to gut Molly near the Winter Wellspring, (or whoever has Queen's blood (3 generations))
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 24, 2018, 08:58:50 PM
Courts of Chaos
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One word of caution for those interested in the series.  There is lots of fluff to some of the narration with regard to traveling.  Lots, and Lots of descriptive stuff. Just go past that.  Not really important.  It gets really annoying if your wanting to basically skim/listen to the books for clues to Dresden Files. (It is an enjoyable series by itself but that narration gets boring.)
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 25, 2018, 02:34:36 PM
Trumps of Doom
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Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 27, 2018, 03:50:06 AM
Blood of Amber
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Sign of Chaos
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Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: groinkick on January 27, 2018, 04:44:14 AM
I think you should look up Randall Flagg.  It's not connected to the Chronicles of Amber but I have speculated that Jim may have taken the concept and given as he said "a new coat of paint"

The main reason is Randall Flagg is connected to He Who Walks Behind the Rows in Stephen King's novel.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: jonas on January 27, 2018, 05:05:40 AM
Dude, tagged that one a long time ago. He's also associated to Nyarlahotep which ties into some other DF stuff. Randall Flagg also is the Man in the Black in Stephen King's Gunslinger/Dark Tower series.
Likes I said... your not quite getting to the source material yet.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: groinkick on January 27, 2018, 05:08:04 AM
Dude, tagged that one a long time ago. He's also associated to Nyarlahotep which ties into some other DF stuff. Randall Flagg also is the Man in the Black in Stephen King's Gunslinger/Dark Tower series.
Likes I said... your not quite getting to the source material yet.

lol what?  Yeah I posted about it a long time ago.  He's been in like 9 Stephen King novels.

What are you talking about me not getting the source material yet?
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: jonas on January 27, 2018, 05:36:30 AM
lol what?  Yeah I posted about it a long time ago.  He's been in like 9 Stephen King novels.

What are you talking about me not getting the source material yet?
Was talking about that to Rai earlier. Here, it's technically Lovecraft and his interdimensional metaphysics. Narylahotep has a form as a very tall joyous man... that's the Gatekeeper lol... which Naryla is the soul of the outer gods. So GK and what he actually does.... well, just think about that one lol.
*which ones besides the dark tower?
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 27, 2018, 06:31:27 PM
This comment is more of a repeat of the other thread.  Before I go more on with this section, I strongly suggest just visiting this link.  Read what I've posted below and see if you can extrapolate my brief snippets in the linked thread to your own conclusion without having me spell it out via context.  It might save me some time to devote on applications rather than observations.

I moved this over from another thread...

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The first thing that jumps out to me is the parallel with the series opener with the beginning of Cold Days.  The hero, Corwin, finds himself in a amnesiac state in which he has to recover along with his injuries.  Corwin has better regenerative abilities than Harry with respect to his wounds.  I also noted that Corwin had been in a Psych ward which is similar to a WOJL that Jim plans a book or plot with Harry in an insane asylum without magic.
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Evelyn Flamel vs. Evelyn Derek.  Corwin gets a business card associated with his alleged 'sister' who is paying the hospital bill for his stay.  The business card stood out to me and particularly when it was associated with Evelyn as I believed it to be an Evelyn that Harry met in Turn Coat. The lawyer that had hired the Private investigator to keep tabs on Harry.  Now Evelyn Flamel (Amber) is Corwin's sister but that is beside the point as far as the business card goes.  It was a coincident but I think Jim, since he is familiar with Amber series, had this business card-Evelyn connection going on when he went with it.
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We see a motif whereby certain brothers/sisters of Corwin have dogs that protect them.  I pointed out on one occasion in which a dog goes in circles before lying down.
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With amnesia Corwin has a familiarity with people, places, situations that is coming back to him.  Later though, it still seems he has a degree of this that borders more on cognition of multiversal events rather than just simply amnesia.  This has a parallel with Harry's precognition familiarity with places, etc.
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Julian, Corwin's brother, leads a 'wild hunt with horn' event chasing Corwin.  It is somewhat similar to DF wild hunt except that the Amber one is a generic hunting event.
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The large part of the series is traveling through the shadows.  These shadows stretch between Amber and Chaos like an electric field around a dipole.  This relates to DF traveling through the NeverNever.  Time distortions occur during travel through shadows in similar ways in which it can occur with it in the NN.
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Again, children of Amber have a great ability to regenerate similar in ways to the ability of DF wizards.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 30, 2018, 11:59:17 PM
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50777.0.html
First, you can review tidbits I jotted down while reading that stood out to me as I listened to the Chronicles of Amber.
Next, I will attempt to apply what I've observed in teh Amber series, books 1-5, to the Dresden Files.  This is a work in progress.  It will be in discrete snippets at first.  I'll be filling it in as time goes on.  I like to use this as my word processor. 

Start of Dresden Files cosmology
     Begins with Corwin creating a new Pattern at the End of "The Courts of Chaos" Book 5. In doing so, with a pre-existing Pattern that he didn't know for sure that existed, Corwin created a 'twinned universe' that spawns the Dresdenverse.  Corwin planted his staff, a branch of the tree Ygg next to site where he subsequently walked The Pattern.  The planted staff likely grows into Yggdrasil. After he completed the Pattern, he notices the tree and glade growing very fast around this Pattern. This makes either Corwin, or his son Merlin, very close to being Odin or his ancestor.  (Note: Corwin's Merlin doesn't mean our Merlin is the same.  It's just the name.)  I should note that "Hugi" is a bird of chaos/absolute chaos that meets up with and follows Corwin in book 5.
   With this as the beginning of the cosmology of the Dresdenverse, then it should be noted of the things that Corwin thought of when he created the "Pattern."  Things that stood out to me was Earth, chestnut trees, and Avalon.  I've speculated before that 'our Earth' and 'Demonreach' is a umbilical cord near where the multiverse was created.  Now we have a precedent of what it means to be a 'umbilical cord.'  It is a site whereby one can feasibly reach "The Pattern."  It is also very close to "The Court of Chaos."  In the Corwin multiverse, "The Court of Chaos" isn't Outsiders.  Actually, Corwin, his father, grandfather, Corwin's son, his brother, sisters all have Chaos blood in their veins.  They just have via Corwin's father, Oberon, on down have "unicorn" blood in their veins.  (It was Dworkin's fault. He was their grandfather of chaos who mixed with the unicorn in some way.)

NEXT
Corwin's blood up to 3 generations hence can endanger "The Pattern."
Wizards who can independently travel the NeverNever have Corwin blood in their veins.
The OuterGates, Black Road is there because "The Pattern" has been defiled.
The Pattern needs to be 'repaired.'  Or, it needs to be destroyed, then remade.
(Destroy, Remade isn't an option that Oberon nor Corwin want, but that Dworkin prefers as he simply wants the torment to end as he is in some respects the Pattern as he created it. And he suffers--is mad--while it is defiled. It is said repair is more difficult than destroy/remake, which  effectively destroy the entire multiverse.  However, remake wouldn't be guaranteed as Chaos wouldn't simply wait while the Pattern is recreated.)
(Either Harry/Odin will probably do it. Or more likely, either Odin/Mac will stop Harry or Odin and sacrifice himself in doing it (repairing vs destroying/remaking) and Harry will make a new Pattern not knowing if Odin succeeded or not.) If Harry makes a new Pattern with Odin/Mac succeeding, a twinned multiverse is created by Harry.  A cataclysmic wave will hit in Odin's success, all must seek "Court of Chaos" for safety until it passes unless they have a 'jewel of judgement' to break the storm.

NEXT
Mac is Corwin. Odin is Corwin's son. Mac is some 'grandcestor' of Harry.
This means Mac originally walked/created a new Pattern creating a twinned 'multiverse.'  He is in a sense GOD.  Mac, however, would be a creature of 'unicorn-order' and 'chaos'.  And, he would be distinct from the multiverse he created but related to it.  So, TWG is an independent entity aside from Mac. 
Malcolm Dresden may be descended from Mac/Odin/Corwin. Or, Maggie Sr. was.
Even though there are a continuum of infinite worlds with mortal choice creating them.  There are worlds 'closer' to the Primal Pattern than others.  Those parallel worlds up to one shadow away from the Primal Pattern have a 'stronger' say in the multiverse than the others. This also extends to people derived from them.  So a Harry from a proximate Primal Pattern world, or rather one shadow away as no one really lives in the abstract Primal Pattern has a stronger say in the multiverse.  Harry's 'starborn' nature could be signified by his proximity to this primary pattern, however it would need to be based on a bloodline as well.  His mother was a very talented traveler.  It may be that she needed to find a 'Corwin' or 'Oberon descendant' and she only had a certain amount of time to do it.

OOH.  Maeve was wanting to collect Harry's blood in Cold Day's to use against "The Pattern" near Demonreach.
I'm thinking that a Primal Pattern that "Corwin/Odin" created lies 'near' Demonreach. Wherever this Primal Pattern lies it is linked to being proximate to Yggdrasil. This Primal Pattern also lies very near the Court of Chaos.  This Primal Pattern could have already been defiled by someone, which is why the "black road...OuterGate" exists. And the bad guys want to defile it more.  Since the defilement occurs by spilling blood 3 generations removed from Corwin onto the Pattern, then the bad guys needs one of them.  It may make sense why so many people are aiming for Harry's blood, bloodline.  His 'starborn' nature is tapping into Corwin's bloodline.  This is placing more emphasis on who exactly makes up Harry's parentage and their bloodline.  We have a sense of Harry's maternal bloodline but we know nothing about Harry's paternal one.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 31, 2018, 12:18:27 AM
The black corruption from using black magic corresponds to corruption on The Pattern.  This means that wizards are part of "The Pattern" and to use their power in forbidden ways corrupts themselves thereby corrupting "the Pattern."  The BlackStaff eats this corruption which limits the harm done to the user and subsequently "The Pattern." 

If there is a connection between the corruption caused by black magic and the corruption on "The Pattern" then this suggests that wizards or those that practice magic are descended from whomever walked "The Pattern" that created the multiverse or at least opened the way to it.

Hah, if Harry ever has to walk a Pattern, I'm gonna bet he is going to use some crazy folk lore in doing so. In my maddened days, I referred to my IN/OUT theory and even went so far as talking about the Hokey Pokey.  So, the Hokey Pokey is now back.  Harry will walk the "Hokey Pokey" (one part of the Pattern) in creating/repairing the Pattern of the multiverse.  Harry also uses part of the "Pattern" or 'new pattern' in defeating/confusing HWWB when he was 16.  And, Lea observed it.  :)   LTW dance was tapping into part of "The Pattern" when he was fighting the SkinWalker.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 31, 2018, 12:19:20 AM
Check out this link.  It has a compilation of tvtropes as applied to Amber.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/TheChroniclesOfAmber
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 31, 2018, 12:20:29 AM
We Create Our Own Shadows

One of the main points in Amber, and in the Dresdenverse is that mortal thought/belief create these parallel worlds.  Well, Jim is the prime originator of the Dresden Files. Roger Zelazny is the prime orginator of the Amber series.  Now to take it up one step, we discussing the Dresden Files postulating our theories arguing about them, etc are creating our own worlds within the Dresdenverse.

Mine would be a "Raidemverse" within the Dresdenverse that I believe lies within the Amberverse.  It is a property of Amberites that we can reach the shadows, cause them to be via our imagination and the property of walking in the shadows.

So, like I said. Jim is the person who has "Walked the Pattern of the Dresdenverse."  I, a Amberite or mortal whose thoughts create parallel worlds, have created a subset within the Dresdenverse whereby my theories prove true.  Other people on the forum have theories that in their subset are also true.  That doesn't mean they correspond to the "truth" in Jim's Primal Dresdenverse.  Our multiverses are but 'shadows' of the one true "Primal Pattern" as written by Jim.

I ask now.  What does your personal "multiverse" look like?  What quirks, imaginings, preferences, accuracies, misunderstanding, have imprinted upon these 'shadows.'  By virtue of us imagining our worlds, our multiverses, innacurate as they may be within the Dresdenverse, Jim can reach into these worlds and have Harry walk into our quirks, imaginings, preferences, accuracies, misunderstandings, etc.

Jim has mentioned he loves reading Fan Crack theories.  I think he is doing just like what I'm suggesting. He is roaming these shadows, peaking in to see our worlds, our shadows that we have created of his Primal Pattern.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 31, 2018, 01:08:21 AM
Thinking about Demonreach, I could imagine Harry finds himself as an inmate in Demonreach.  He talks with his prior self, and tells him to piss off. And of course, our Harry wants to piss on him as a joke :)

The prisoner Harry at some point needs to exchange positions with our Harry, with our Harry going along the course of events that Prisoner Harry went through.

This would add another goal in Cold Days. To either jail brake a not ready PrisonerHarry, or kill the PrisonerHarry with the banefire.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 31, 2018, 01:46:23 AM
We have known for some time that if someone has your 'true name' they essentially have you.  And to give them your true name, you need to speak it.

After reading the Amber series and encountering the character Victor Melman, I began wondering about both Victor Sells and the mailman (Victor Melman) we see in Storm Front.  I wondered if the mailman, having thought of Peabody, had Harry sign his name for the letter/package.  Does this signing of one's name give some part, approximation of the 'true name'.  After this, I then thought of those wizards that Peabody had compromised within the White Council.  We know part of the compromise was the blue ink.  I wonder though if there was another vector for compromise in having your name, placed by you, on print being given to another.  As an example, say a wizard is mute.  This person has a true name.  How would they give their 'true name' out?   Anyways, what do you guys think?

By the way, if this Victor mailman vs Victor Melman parallel holds between Amber and DF, it would mean Harry is 'Merlin' or at least his shadow.  Nor, have we seen the last of Victor Sells.  Victor Melman attempts to sacrifice Merlin atop an altar crying out for his Master.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: groinkick on January 31, 2018, 04:56:25 AM
We have known for some time that if someone has your 'true name' they essentially have you.  And to give them your true name, you need to speak it.

After reading the Amber series and encountering the character Victor Melman, I began wondering about both Victor Sells and the mailman (Victor Melman) we see in Storm Front.  I wondered if the mailman, having thought of Peabody, had Harry sign his name for the letter/package.  Does this signing of one's name give some part, approximation of the 'true name'.  After this, I then thought of those wizards that Peabody had compromised within the White Council.  We know part of the compromise was the blue ink.  I wonder though if there was another vector for compromise in having your name, placed by you, on print being given to another.  As an example, say a wizard is mute.  This person has a true name.  How would they give their 'true name' out?   Anyways, what do you guys think?

By the way, if this Victor mailman vs Victor Melman parallel holds between Amber and DF, it would mean Harry is 'Merlin' or at least his shadow.  Nor, have we seen the last of Victor Sells.  Victor Melman attempts to sacrifice Merlin atop an altar crying out for his Master.

I have theorized the mailman was more than just a mailman but at this far I don't think that's the case.  I'd love for little things all the way from the first book to matter in later books but I don't know.  I'd believe there are parallels between Amber, and Dresden Files but I don't think it would play out so closely.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on January 31, 2018, 02:19:06 PM
Harry did notice that the mailman had just changed at the beginning of Storm Front.  So, it could be that one or the other of the 'mailman's' were the bad guy.  And, someone had to do in the other.  I don't think Harry ever mentions getting a new one.

So, it could be that the 'mailman' was somewhat of a protector of Harry. Preventing those who would try to get to Harry via ink, or handwritten signatures.

I'm now thinking of the Larry Fowler lawsuit.  Will Harry have to take the stand or something, or need to say his Full Name in court.  Just because some got his name in Cold Days, doesn't mean there won't be others that try to make that same attempt.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: groinkick on January 31, 2018, 08:39:02 PM
Harry did notice that the mailman had just changed at the beginning of Storm Front.  So, it could be that one or the other of the 'mailman's' were the bad guy.  And, someone had to do in the other.  I don't think Harry ever mentions getting a new one.

So, it could be that the 'mailman' was somewhat of a protector of Harry. Preventing those who would try to get to Harry via ink, or handwritten signatures.

I'm now thinking of the Larry Fowler lawsuit.  Will Harry have to take the stand or something, or need to say his Full Name in court.  Just because some got his name in Cold Days, doesn't mean there won't be others that try to make that same attempt.

"Please state your full name for the court"

:Every supernatural being out there:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/8fen5LSZcHQ5O/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: Quantus on January 31, 2018, 09:01:09 PM
"Please state your full name for the court"

:Every supernatural being out there:
(https://media.giphy.com/media/8fen5LSZcHQ5O/giphy.gif)
We never have been able to settle the question of whether a person can intentionally mispronounce their own Name to avoid that sort of issue.  I lean toward the idea that you can, based on the fact that you can apparently get a true Name correct accidentally (as Morgan very nearly did back in I want to say SF)
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: DroppaMaPantz on February 01, 2018, 12:58:51 AM
Lots of good stuff in this thread. Just wanted to say thanks for making it and all the work you put in.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 01, 2018, 01:26:36 AM
Thanks. And your welcome.

I seem to have missed jotting down notes for the last two books.  I hope I have them somewhere.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: knnn on February 02, 2018, 02:31:54 PM
One thing about the Amber series that struck me is that Corwin at least seems to be a deliberately misleading narrator, essentially hiding some thing from the audience (i.e. Merlin).   

As an example, one of the thing I missed on my first read through is that Corwin is actually capable of casting minor spells.   Notice how a bunch of people get "hotfoot" (e.g. the horned thing in "Guns of Amber" and the Crow in "courts of Chaos") during the story?    It's Corwin casting a spell that causes a burning sensation in the guy's foot.  It's a minor point to be sure, but a subtle hint that Corwin is not revealing everything he knows.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: knnn on February 02, 2018, 02:34:19 PM
Also Raidem, have you read the last few short stories?   I believe there are five of them.  They take place after the end of Prince of Chaos.

E.g.:

"Blue Horse Dancing Mountains"

https://www.tor.com/2013/10/17/the-chronicles-of-amber-reread-the-short-stories-part-1/
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 02, 2018, 02:45:32 PM
No. I haven't read them yet.

Hmm. So we still have a these characters involved in things:

Luke, Delwin, Vialle (Vialle creating a Oracle)
Corwin, Dworkin, Suhuy,
Merlin, Rhanda, Julia, Jurt, Mr(s) Hidey
Frakir, Flora, Luke
See characters in "The Hall of Mirrors"


https://www.tor.com/2013/10/24/the-chronicles-of-amber-reread-the-short-stories-part-2/
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 05, 2018, 03:16:54 PM
AmberMush Facts link:
http://z14.invisionfree.com/AmberMUSH_Webboard/ar/t11.htm

This sounds like Mac's Bar, from AmberMush

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What is the World's End Bar, and how did it come to be?
The WEB was originally a normal bar in San Francisco, named the Chestnut Street Bar and Grill. Since events and fights kept spilling into the local constabulatory's lap in San Francisco, the bar was eventually set adrift, a sort of free-floating Shadow of its own, and renamed the World's End Bar. There was a mirror which led to the Hall of Mirrors, and the door out led to many different Shadows.

The WEB has undergone several complete redecorations (usually thanks to Jurt). Since the Hall of Mirrors imploded, the WEB has been redecorated yet again, and now has a magical glowing corner in place of the mirror. It continues to serve its purpose as a sort of neutral ground, easily accessible by many.

This seems like it is Gatekeeper's Eye.  I
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Why is the Jewel not in Coral's eye?
This information is theoretically discoverable through roleplay.
This Jewel is the Jewel of Judgement.  It is used to attune oneself to the Powers of the Pattern to allow oneself to effectively use massive cosmic forces.  It can also be used to create a new Pattern, a way into a completely new multiverse, or creating one from scratch.

Now, Gatekeeper's eye could also be Odin's. Or it could be say from the Fates...  One other thought was that it might be GhostWheel's.  For Ghostwheel, see the cover of this book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumps_of_Doom

Quote
How are three Patterns balancing, if at all?
Whether or not they balance is a cosmological question, and possibly plot material.

Quote
Where's Undershadow?
It has never turned up in play, and therefore likely doesn't exist as such on AmberMUSH.

This would be a plot taking place say Outside of Uriel's office in Chicago during Ghost Story.  Something along those lines.  Merlin goes to a masquerade where he essentially has to take actions forced by order or chaos, his choice, but that matter on the cosmic scale.  He needs to off someone(s) and needs to do it at moment's notice, no hesitation but he is seeing lots of people at a party and some are bad people.  But are they who needs 'killing.'

Another thing that might be like Demonreach is again something based off of GhostWheel.
Quote
After finishing construction, Merlin set Ghostwheel to work indexing Shadows in the same way that a search engine indexes the internet. Similar to a search engine, Ghostwheel can find, track, and retrieve objects from Shadow; this includes the ability to move people and objects between Shadows. Ghostwheel operates by creating pseudo-Trumps for every mutation of Shadow and then searching them.
This would be similar to Demonreach's ability to grab Prisoner's and stash them in his prison.  It could be rather, that GhostWheel is what finds, tracks, and retrieve's these entities then places them on Demonreach for Demonreach/Warden to be the Prison.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 05, 2018, 03:42:01 PM
Amber Discord Server:

[9:47 AM] darniil: I haven't been able to confirm this, but I've been told that Mister (Harry's cat) is inspired by the head of House Barimen in the MUSH that Butcher played in.
[9:49 AM] darniil: I did also ask Butcher one day at a signing, "If the walls between Shadows collapsed and you met Harry, what would his reaction be?"  Butcher laughed and said Harry would punch him right in the face.
[11:03 AM] raidem: Oh, Darnill you were the one that had asked Jim that question.  I later heard about it in WOJ, or Q&A, or something.(edited)
[11:10 AM] darniil: ha!  funny.  yeah, I'm pretty sure it was at a B&N here in Atlanta, on Peachtree, assuming I'm remembering correctly.  I know he's been to Dragon Con, but I'm pretty sure I asked that in a bookstore.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 05, 2018, 09:47:15 PM
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Chronicles_of_Amber
I went through the quotes and picked out the ones that stood out to me.  In ways, they could apply to Dresden Files.

Quote
There is Shadow and there is Substance, and this is the root of all things. Of Substance, there is only Amber, the real city, upon the real Earth, which contains everything. Of Shadow, there is an infinitude of things. Every possibility exists somewhere as a Shadow of the real. Amber, by its very existence, has cast such in all directions. And what may one say of it beyond? Shadow extends from Amber to Chaos, and all things are possible within it. There are only three ways of traversing it, and each of them is difficult.
Quote
Amber casts an infinity of shadows. A child of Amber may walk among them, and such was my heritage. You may call them parallel worlds if you wish, alternate universes if you would, the products of a deranged mind if you care to. I call them shadows, as do all who possess the power to walk among them. We select a possibility and we walk until we reach it. So, in a sense, we create it. Let’s leave it at that for now.
Quote
If the forays of chaos kept occurring on my desire-walk through Shadow, then they were bound up with the nature of the desire and would have to be dealt with, one way or another, sooner or later. They could not be avoided. Such was the nature of the game, and I could not complain because I had laid down the rules.

Quote
For a moment I regarded the Pattern—a shining mass of curved lines that tricked the eye as it tried to trace them—imbedded there, huge, in the floor's slick blackness. It had given me power over Shadow, it had restored most of my memory. It would also destroy me in an instant if I were to essay it improperly. What gratitude the prospect did arouse in me was therefore not untinged with fear. It was a splendid and cryptic old family heirloom which belonged right where it was, in the cellar.
Quote
"Why have we been brought here and shown this thing?"
"It does not correspond to the true state of affairs," I said. "It is the true state of affairs."
Ganelon turned toward us.
"On that shadow Earth we visited—where you had spent so many years—I heard a poem about two roads that diverged in a wood," he said. "It ends, 'I took the one less traveled by, and that has made all the difference.' When I heard it, I thought of something you had once said—'All roads lead to Amber'—and I wondered then, as I do now, at the difference the choice may make, despite the end's apparent inevitability to those of your blood."
"You know?" I said. "You understand?"
"I think so."
He nodded, then pointed.
"That is the real Amber down there, isn't it?"
"Yes," I said. "Yes, it is."
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 05, 2018, 11:38:31 PM
Quote
"Anything you like. Have you any preferences? My flight from Chaos to this small sudden island in the sea of night? My meditations upon the abyss? The revelation of the Pattern in a jewel hung round the neck of a unicorn? My transcription of the design by lightning, blood, and lyre while our fathers raged baffled, too late come to call me back while the poem of fire ran that first route in my brain, infecting me with the will to form? Too late! Too late... Possessed of the abominations born of the disease, beyond their aid, their power, I planned and built, captive of my new self. Is that the tale you'd hear again? Or rather I tell you of its cure?"
My mind spun at the implications he had just scattered by the fistful. I could not tell whether he spoke literally or metaphorically or was simply sharing paranoid delusions, but the things that I wanted to hear, had to hear, were things closer to the moment. So, regarding the shadowy image of myself from which that ancient voice emerged, "Tell me of its cure," I said.

Quote
I could not be truly harmed because the Pattern protects me, and who but I could harm the Pattern? A beautiful closed system, it seemed, its weakness totally shielded by its strength. ... My blood, with which I drew it, could deface it. But it took me ages to realize that the blood of my blood could also do this thing.

Quote
It was realized long ago that the two kingdoms can never be merged, or one destroyed, without also disrupting all the processes that lie in flux between us. Total stasis or complete chaos would be the result.

Quote
I wish that you had never been born and, failing that, that you had died sooner. Enough! It diminishes me to reflect so. Be dead and trouble my thinking no more.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 05, 2018, 11:44:48 PM
Merlin Series:
Quote
We never used to word “love,” though it must have run through her mind on occasion, as it did through mine. It was, I suppose, that I didn’t love her enough to trust her, and then it was too late.

Quote
This was my father’s tomb—well, cenotaph—built long ago when he had been presumed dead. It had amused him considerably to be able to visit the place later on. Now, of course, its status might well have changed. It could be the real thing now. Would this cancel the irony or increase it?

Quote
“It means nothing to be able to transport yourself anywhere,” I heard her say, “if you are a fool in all places.”

Quote
You can make me play,” I said, “but you cannot make me choose. My will is my own.”

Quote
I no longer felt my body. Time was an alien concept. The striving was no longer striving, but a form of elemental movement now, beside which glaciers rushed.

Quote
No matter what you are and no matter what’s been done to you, there will have to be some element of choice for you, sooner or later. You are greater than the sum of your parts, Merlin. No matter what went into your birth and your life up to now, you’ve got eyes and a brain and a set of values. Don’t let anybody bullshit you, not even me. And when the time comes, if it comes, make damn sure the choice is your own. Nothing that’s gone before will matter then.

Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: knnn on February 06, 2018, 06:42:05 PM
You've got some interesting stuff there Raidem.   I encourage you to keep digging excavating.   


...That is, as long as your semblance of sanity holds up.    ;D
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 06, 2018, 08:05:16 PM
I already included this some comments above but have posted it again to link Reddit and other Mac threads to it.
Quote
What is the World's End Bar, and how did it come to be?
The WEB was originally a normal bar in San Francisco, named the Chestnut Street Bar and Grill. Since events and fights kept spilling into the local constabulatory's lap in San Francisco, the bar was eventually set adrift, a sort of free-floating Shadow of its own, and renamed the World's End Bar. There was a mirror which led to the Hall of Mirrors, and the door out led to many different Shadows.
The WEB has undergone several complete redecorations (usually thanks to Jurt). Since the Hall of Mirrors imploded, the WEB has been redecorated yet again, and now has a magical glowing corner in place of the mirror. It continues to serve its purpose as a sort of neutral ground, easily accessible by many.

This is a Reddit on MCAnally's sign.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/7b94gv/mcanallys_changing_sign/

Similar thread on this forum about the sign.  Topic: ACCORDED NEUTRAL GROUND  (Read 655 times)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50421.msg2293925.html#msg2293925

 Topic: Mac, A T-Shirt, and the 1994 Unseelie Incursion  (Read 262 times)
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50623.msg2297491.html#msg2297491

https://twitter.com/PatrickRothfuss/status/874393135589326852

I think this T-shirt ties Mac in with being symbolized by a Trump card (spades), this may mean he is one of the characters from Amber (royal family).  I'd argue he is one of the more well-known characters like Corwin, Merlin, Oberon, etc.



Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 08, 2018, 02:27:27 AM
Storm Front
Mac Bar: First Introduction

Upon Entering:
The dim, comfortable room was empty, but for a pair of men I recognized by sight at a back table, playing chess.
Upon Exiting:
The chess game in the corner was still in progress, both players puffing up a sweet-smelling smog cloud from their pipes.

There is a short story by Roger Zelazny where Corwin has to ride to Amber and make it in time to visit teh Hall of Mirrors.  Upon his journeying he stops to rests for the night and wanders a bit.  He hears a sound and spies upon Drworkin and Suhuy (representatives of Chaos and Order) playing chess, Chaos bets that Corwin won't make it in time, the players switch spots and Dworkin moves Suhuy's chess piece.  Suhuy has to reflect on the move and bids the night.  Corwin gets back to his camp and makes a beeline with his horse to Amber to get to the Hall of Mirrors in time.

Anyways, the jist is that these two players at Mac's are actually representatives of the cosmic powers and they are moving their chess pieces around.

“Blue Horse, Dancing Mountains”
Quote
This story picks up with Corwin (yay!) after he leaves Chaos. He rides a blue horse named Shask, a Chaos creature who can talk and change shape. Shask warns Corwin about the Dancing Mountains which lie between the shadows of Chaos and the shadows of Amber and are constantly shifting.
At night, Shask turns to stone (apparently a hereditary condition) and Corwin sleeps until he is awakened by a sound. He explores to find a depression in the mountain where two figures are playing a game. One figure is seated on the ground and the other hangs upside down in the air as they move pieces on the board. Corwin recognizes the seated man as Dworkin, his grandfather. His game pieces include a griffin, the Unicorn, and Castle Amber. His opponent is soon revealed to be Suhuy, Dworkin’s counterpart in Chaos. His pieces are a Fire Angel, the Serpent, and the Thelbane (the king’s home in Chaos). Neither man can see Corwin, but Suhuy mentions that Corwin won’t make it back to Amber in time to find the Hall of Mirrors and get the answers he needs. Dworkin warns Suhuy not to underestimate Corwin. Then the two men shift position and Dworkin moves a Chaos piece, a woman, which Suhuy objects to. He needs to study the move, so both men agree to reconvene in a few days before disappearing.
Corwin returns to Shask and when the steed awakens, Corwin asks if he knows what a hellride is. Shask does, noting its often harmful effect on a mount’s sanity. Corwin thinks Shask’s mind is up to the task. Corwin knows he has to get to the Hall of Mirrors quickly and so they prepare to depart.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 08, 2018, 02:30:00 AM
Now in the above I was talking about Corwin racing to make it to the Hall of Mirrors.  Let's say he did, which he did in the short story.  And now after some time reaching the Dresdenverse and setting up shop, Corwin/Mac has a Bar of Mirrors.


Quote
Mac keeps a player piano instead. It's less likely to go haywire around us. I say pub in all the best senses of the word. When you walk in, you take several steps down into a room with a deadly combination of a low clearance and ceiling fans. If you're tall, like me, you walk carefully in McAnally's. There are thirteen stools at the bar and thirteen tables in the room. Thirteen windows, set up high in the wall in order to be above ground level, let some light from the street into the place. Thirteen mirrors on the walls cast back reflections of the patrons in dim detail, and give the illusion of more space. Thirteen wooden columns, carved with likenesses from folktales and legends of the Old World, make it difficult to walk around the place without weaving a circuitous route—they also quite intentionally break up the flow of random energies, dispelling to one degree or another the auras that gather around broody, grumpy wizards and keeping them from manifesting in unintentional and colorful ways. The colors are all muted, earth browns and sea greens. The first time I entered McAnally's, I felt like a wolf returning to an old, favorite den. Mac makes his own beer, ale really, and it's the best stuff in the city. His food is cooked on a wood-burning stove. And you can damn well walk your own self over to the bar to pick up your order when it's ready, according to Mac. It's my sort of place.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: nervousenergy on February 08, 2018, 07:14:52 PM
Cool thread.  The Chronicles of Amber has always been one of my favorite series, having read it shortly after the first series was completed with the Courts of Chaos.  I hadn't considered the close parallels until reading this thread, other than the fact that Amber gets riffed on by a lot of urban fantasy. 

I do like to pretend that the second series around Merlin wasn't written.  One of the great charms of the original 5 was the character of Corwin himself, our narrator.  This series was what first gave me my love of well-executed first person stories.  I've always felt I've known Corwin better than some real friends.  And like many great series, it didn't try to reveal too much.  The second series didn't have nearly as unique a character to narrate in Merlin, and it tried to explain too much.  Magic requires mystery.

Lots of great quotes in this thread.  One of my favorite was a funny throw-away line Corwin uttered after his assassination attempt that I've stolen on occasion:  'If blood be the price of admiralty, I've just bought myself a naval commission...'
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 09, 2018, 01:03:06 AM
A Game That Honed the Skills of Writers
NY Times, Jim Butcher, AmberMush  (Read 4 times)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/24/books/jim-butcher-one-of-the-authors-from-ambermush.html
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 09, 2018, 01:04:33 AM
Another option for Mac is Bassor Thanlis Jim's personal character in AmberMush.  Or, he could be one of the others he created there.

I still favor either Corwin or Corwin's son Merlin as for Mac's identity.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 10, 2018, 01:11:41 AM
Pulled from a Thread. (Corwin, Nevada)

I've found a connection between Amber Chronicles and Dresden Files.  And it involves both a Nevada ghost town, walking through the Ways of the NeverNever which Jim says he largely lifted from Amber Series, and the main protagonist Corwin of the first 5 books in the Series.

First the Woj:
Quote
One of your more weirder scenes was the journey on the Chichen Itza.  That journey through the parallel universes, but mixed in with the physical ones. Where did you get the ideas? I think there was like the upside triangles of light. Do you use like random things or how did you...?
As far as going through the parallel universes, to get somewhere else, that's largely lifted from Zelazny's Amber books. I don't know if you guys read Amber but travelling through Shadow is much the same.

Excerpt from Changes
Quote
“Ah,” Susan said. “You want us to walk blind through a tunnel filled with poisonous gases that could explode at the smallest spark.” “
Yeah.”
“And . . . you’re sure this is a good idea?”
“It’s a terrible idea,” I said. “But it’s the fastest way to the storage facility.” I lifted my fingertips to touch the red stone on my amulet as I neared the location of the Way. It was an old, bricked-over doorway into the ground level of the apartment building. A voice with no apparent source began to speak quietly—a woman’s voice, throaty and calm. My mother’s voice. She died shortly after my birth, but I was certain, as sure as I had been of anything in my life: It was her voice. It made me feel warm, listening to it, like an old, favorite piece of music that you haven’t heard for years.
“The hallway on the other side is full of dangerous levels of methane and carbon monoxide, among other gases. The mixture appears to be volatile, and in the other side you can never be sure exactly which energies might or might not trigger an explosion. Forty-two walking steps to the far end, which opens on a ridge outside Corwin, Nevada.”
There was a moment of silence, and then the same voice began to speak again, panting, shaking, and out of breath. “Notation: The hallway is not entirely abandoned. Something tried to grab me as I came through.” She coughed several times. “Notation secundus: Don’t wear a dress the next time you need to go to Corwin, dummy. Some farmer’s going to get a show.”
“Maybe it was a grue,” I murmured, smiling.
“What did you say?” Susan asked.
“Nothing,” I said. “Never mind.” I put a hand on the doorway and immediately felt a kind of yielding elasticity beneath my fingertips. The separation between the world of flesh and spirit was weak here. I took a deep breath, laid out a fairly mild effort of will, and murmured, “Aparturum.” A circle of blackness began to expand from the center of my palm beneath my hand, rapidly swelling, overlaying the wall itself. I didn’t let it get too big. The gate would close on its own, eventually, but smaller gates closed more quickly, and I didn’t want some poor fool going through it. Present company excluded, of course. I glanced back to Susan and Martin. “Susan, grab on to my coat. Martin, you grab hers. Take a deep breath and let’s get this done fast and quiet.”
I turned to the Way, took a deep breath, and then strode forward. Mom’s gem hadn’t mentioned that it was flipping hot in there. When I’d stepped into the hallway on the first trip, I felt like I was inside about three saunas, nested together like those Russian dolls. I found the righthand wall and started walking, counting my steps. I made them a bit shorter than normal, and nailed the length of Mom’s stride more accurately this time. I hit the Way out at forty-three. Another effort of will and a whispered word, and I opened that gate as well, emerging into a cold mountain wind, and late twilight. Susan and Martin came out with me, and we all spent a moment letting out our pent-up breaths. We were in desert mountains, covered with tough, stringy plants and quick, quiet beasts. The gate behind me, another circle, stood in the air in front of what looked like the entrance to an old mine that had been bricked over a long time ago.
“Which way?” Martin said.
“Half mile this way,” I said, and set out overland.

There is no Corwin, Nevada.
I found only one brief mention about a ghost town named Corwin, Nevada in the mid 1800s with say two cabins and that was it.
I also found a map of a list of about 30 or so ghost towns in Nevada where Corwin was one of these. These are abandoned mining ops 100-200 years ago. (SW Nevada)
http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/nv/nveureka.html

Corwin: Main/Major character in the Chronicles of Amber.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corwin_of_Amber

So, this ghost town of Corwin, Nevada is the place that the Red Court Vampires placed their secret warehouse facility at.
Title: Re: Chronicles of Amber
Post by: raidem on February 11, 2018, 01:15:56 PM
Both are quotes in Chronicles of Amber where Corwin pisses on his own Grave. 
Quote
So we sat there while the moon fell, till the last bottle was interred among its fellows. We talked for a time of days gone by. At length we fell silent and my eyes drifted to the stars above Amber. It was good that we had come to this place, but now the city was calling me back. Knowing my thoughts, Ganelon rose and stretched, headed for the horses. I relieved myself beside my tomb and followed him.

Quote
He chuckled as he reached across the altar, raised a burning taper, and used it  to  light  one  of  the others that had apparently gone out in some draft.
"I've pissed on my  own  grave,"  he  announced.  "Can't  pass  up  the pleasure of lighting a candle to myself in my own church."

These remind me of Harry and the Prisoner within Demonreach.  The prisoner tells Harry to "piss off."  Harry thinks of a clever joke/act.

Quote
So I eyed the mound, one about the size of a coffin, and said, “What’s your problem?”
You, obviously, replied the occupant. Do you even know what the word stasis means? It means nothing is happening. You standing here, walking by, talking to me, for God’s sake, buggers that up entirely, the way you novices always do. What was the phrase? Ah, yes. Piss off.
I lifted my eyebrows. To date, every single prisoner who had tried to communicate with me had been pretty obviously playing to get out, or else howling nuts. This guy just sounded . . . British. “Huh,” I said.
Did you hear me, Warden? Piss. Off.
I debated taking him literally, just to be a wiseass, but decided that body humor was beneath the dignity of a Wizard of the White Council and the Warden of Demonreach, thus disproving everyone who says I am nothing but an overgrown juvenile delinquent. “Who are you?” I asked instead.
There was a long moment of silence. And then a thought filled with a terrible weariness and purely emotional anguish, like something I’d experienced only at the very lowest moments of my life, flowed into me—but for this being, such pain wasn’t a low point. It was a constant state. Someone who needs to be here. Go away, boy. A rolling wave of nausea went through me. The air was suddenly too bright, the gentle glow of the crystals too piercing. I found myself taking several steps back from the mound, until that awful tide of feeling had receded, but the headache those emotions had triggered found me nonetheless, and I was abruptly in too much pain to keep my feet. I dropped to one knee, clenching my teeth on a scream. The headaches had gotten steadily worse, and despite a lifetime of learning to cope with pain, despite the power of the mantle of the Winter Knight, they had begun kicking my ass thoroughly a few weeks before. For a while, there was simply pain, and aching, racking nausea. Eventually, that began to grow slowly less, and I looked up to see a hulking form in a dark cloak standing over me. It was ten or twelve feet tall, and built on the same scale as a massively muscled human, though I never really seemed to see much of the being beneath the cloak. It stared down at me, a pair of pinpoints of green, fiery light serving as eyes within the depths of its hood.
“WARDEN,” it said, its voice a deep rumble, “I HAVE SUPPRESSED THE PARASITE FOR NOW.”
“’Bout time, Alfred,”

There need not be a direct parallel but it is something to think about.  We do know after all that Harry will break the laws of Time Travel, and it will be to 'swim against the currents of time.'  So, he will be going into the past.  It may be more difficult to jump back to the future once changes occur in the past, etc.  He may need to be placed in stasis due to corruption, and limit his further interaction with the timeline.