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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: raidem on January 19, 2018, 02:46:44 PM
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We have this WOJ:
No. Mab was not the first Mab. Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth. She was her sidekick and handmaiden. And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too. So she got to be much more powerful and awesome. But that was a while back. When that happened. And the same thing with Titania. The Winter Queens actually died. The last time things got awful in the wizard world. So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous. They're a bit nervous about Dresden. Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden. Mab is keeping her enemies close.
How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.
Is Nic older than Mab?
He is.
The first quote is the main one that is relevant. I included the others from this link made by Serack http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48717.msg2258880.html#msg2258880.
My main theory Murphy/Mab requires that Murphy revisit this time. That said, this thread asks the question if we will see from Harry's point of view in a time traveling book the events when both Queens died. Jim mentions these events in WOJ, but the avg reader really has no knowledge of this. So for it to be germane to the story other than mere backstory not in the books, Jim will need to write it in. How does Jim tie it into the plot? Will we get a reveal of who Mab and Titania are prior to ascending.
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We have this WOJ:
The first quote is the main one that is relevant. I included the others from this link made by Serack http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48717.msg2258880.html#msg2258880.
My main theory Murphy/Mab requires that Murphy revisit this time. That said, this thread asks the question if we will see from Harry's point of view in a time traveling book the events when both Queens died. Jim mentions these events in WOJ, but the avg reader really has no knowledge of this. So for it to be germane to the story other than mere backstory not in the books, Jim will need to write it in. How does Jim tie it into the plot? Will we get a reveal of who Mab and Titania are prior to ascending.
I think that we will learn about it, but that there won't be a time travel book at all, let alone back to this time period. I think that there may be some limited time travel, but that it'll either be for a very, very specific goal, or that Harry will get stranded in time around Proven Guilty, and he'll have to figure out a way to get back.
As for learning about Hastings and such, I think Odin will provide the exposition; I doubt we'll see it unfold on the page. You're talking about major, major butterfly effect stuff when you go that far back; Harry kills a guy, and his entire lineage for a thousand years is wiped out. These are the tops of a lot of family trees, including mine (my furthest traced ancestry is to the Domesday Book, circa 1086, and there is virtually no trace of birth or baptismal records that survive today beyond that). We're talking thousands of people over 30-40 generations. Considering Harry often leaves a body count, he could totally reshape history just by virtue of being himself.
Maybe he'll receive some kind of vision, or will get a Bob-theater movie, or some such thing, but I highly doubt Harry will ever go back that far.
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Agreed. I doubt we're going to see it, but probably going to hear about it. I'd give good odds it'll be something we learn about early on in a book as it will be relevant to what Harry needs to do for the plot.
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If Mab tells her story about becoming Queen; it will possibly be the same book she dies in.
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I think we will... Jim said that Mab keeps her enemies close, and Titania is fearful of Harry... My guess is we will for sure find out why they see him as a threat, and it will be related to what happened in the past.
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We have this WOJ:
The first quote is the main one that is relevant. I included the others from this link made by Serack http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48717.msg2258880.html#msg2258880.
My main theory Murphy/Mab requires that Murphy revisit this time. That said, this thread asks the question if we will see from Harry's point of view in a time traveling book the events when both Queens died. Jim mentions these events in WOJ, but the avg reader really has no knowledge of this. So for it to be germane to the story other than mere backstory not in the books, Jim will need to write it in. How does Jim tie it into the plot? Will we get a reveal of who Mab and Titania are prior to ascending.
Wait, just checking, is your main theory that Murphy=Mab?
Because I'm pretty sure Murphy doesn't have a twin.
Can we get a break down of the biological relationships between the various Fae Queens we have seen on screen?
Of particular interest - Maeve and Sarissa, were they actually Mab's kids (biological sense)? If so, who was Mab's baby daddy?
Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.
Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.
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I've dealt with that a few times. And, I agreed it was a hurdle.
Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters
1) The mantles make Mab and Titania 'actual twin sisters.' (genetically speaking)
2) The mantles are actual twin sisters.
3) Murphy has an actual twin sister (a deal we don't know about)
4) Murphy becomes Mab, her Mirror self becomes Titania
5) An temporal event 1000+ years ago causes two Murphy's to appear (similar somewhat to Mirror self)
<curveball: misleading WOJ in some way>
Something along those lines above. It still requires these twin sisters to become Winter Lady and Summer Lady. Then both ascend nearly 1000+ years ago.
The other theory is that Murphy succeeds to be Mab in the future rather than past.
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To the OP, I dont really expect us to be shown ANY of the globally significant past events. Seeing more personally significant events like the Justin confrontation, Harry's trial, or the death of his parents might happen, Michael Vs Dragon would be cool. And getting some of the specific historic era events that have been mentions might happen (in Short story form) like the youth of the current SC members or the story of Klaus the Toymaker.
But I dont expect to get the any of the globally huge events on page; no Hastings battle, no Arthur, no Crucifixion, or Kemmler Death or previous Ladies.
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GOOGLE AUDIENCE: “Silly Dresden Files question. I remember in Cold Days the shenanigans regarding the origin of Demonreach. And can we expect more time shenanigans in future books?”
JB: “More time shenanigans? SIR, one of the Laws of Magic states that you cannot mess with time like that! OF COURSE, there will be more time shenanigans! I only established the seven Laws of Magic so I could have Dresden methodically break them one by one!”
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I'm talking about my TTMurphy=Mab theory but will change to a generic case for the remainder.
Assume Person A(Murphy) time travels into the past (1000+ years) to assume a mantle, say that of X(Lady=>Mab).
Person A with X(as Mab) then goes through history to finally arrive when Person A lives (Murphy born is playing in events we see onscreen)
There is overlap and interaction between Person A and Person A with X (as Mab) onscreen going toward an event in which Person A time travels into past.
My question is how would you go about undoing this cycle. Would simply trying to kill Person A do the trick. I don't think so because we know Person A with X exists. So, it brings me to the case of Arctis Tor and Demonreach. If you were to kill both Person A and Person A with X then you can unmake or at least have a better chance at undoing the cycle completely and wreaking havoc on the entire timeline dependent on Person A with X assuming their position 1000+ years ago. This applies to both my and Ms. Duck's theory by the way as both Molly and Murphy were present on each occasion in which it could be argued that Mab was in danger.
What do you guys think. Can you think of instances of time travel in literature changes things but then an attempt is made to change the change. And how would that apply to this situation.
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Back to the future 2...
Don't remember for sure but the show Heroes there was some time travel that was pretty confusing at times.
If Murphy is Mab then I'm thinking that somehow Murphy along with her sister are pulled back in time.. Her sister would become Titania.
I could actually see a scenario where there is some sort of Murphy family gathering again, and Harry is there with his daughter. Shit hits the fan, and Harry and Murphy need to go do something and for some reason her sister must come along (probably to avoid dying)... They are then pulled back in time somehow. I could see Jim pulling some lines from the Back to the Future movies too... Like Harry needing to go back in time and when he tells Murphy, and her sister to stay behind the person allowing them to time travel says "This involves them too, Harry"
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I'm going to add Amber to this list now.
When Amberites get involved in things and particularly if they bring people along with them, time travel and travel to parallel worlds become 'EASY'. So the question is, is there a Amber equivalent in the Dresdenverse nearby Harry. I think Mac might qualify as one.
Amberites, or even Chaosians, those who have walked the requisite Pattern, Logrus etc are highly able to reach parallel worlds. They can reach a specific world in a past extreme past state, past state, present state. They may be able to get to a future state. They can even see their own shadows of themselves because they had already walked that way. Any ways, a Amberite, Chaosian, or some equivalent operates on higher plane of existence whereby they can easily shortcut the problems that we see.
I think it was this property that allowed Merlin to create Demonreach in five times (or more) all at once. He had access to Amberite, Chaosian blood or some mantle/grace.
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What resource might have info on the time period in question? Ivy? Maybe Bob? Bob's memories can be locked away or forgotten as we've seen. Can the same be said for Ivy? Is there any data loss from Archive to Archive? Perhaps sensitive time periods are redacted to a certain point? Or even classified enough that Ivy doesn't have access.
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If it is a written record, Ivy knows it. So there are people who know the history of things fairly well.
There may be some restriction on temporal matters within the Archive to be opened in case of 'shenanigans.' The Archive tended to be Oracles after all so they probably are tuned into temporal matters as well as linear ones.
Oh, and to tie this in with Amber, there is a GhostWheel that Merlin creates that is somewhat like the Archive but on a much higher metaversal scale. I'd say if there was anyone to invent the Archive, it would be GhostWheel.
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Unless Molly gets ahold of them... Which means anyone else with that type of skill using mind manipulation on the Archive would screw up the history books from then on.
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The Fallen really wanted to turn Ivy in Small Favor.
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We've seen Nic call in his favor from Mab in Skin Game. If I'm Nic I would love to get Ivy just to have leverage over even more people. Also, ever wonder what he did for her, seeing how we've read what Mab's repayment allowed him to achieve? Maybe she's Queen of Winter because of him? Or a severe threat to her throne was thwarted thanks to him? 1000 years ago was a completely different white council. What might they have been like? Possibly writing the last of the laws? maybe there were only a few, and the disasters they saw caused new limitations to be decreed?
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There is a WOJ that Mab had to be in two places at once and she had to call in Nic to be in one of those places for her. Other WOJ's also say Mab went into much Debt when she took control over the OuterGates. I believe it was ourMab that did that. It is these debts that she is repaying that finally got to her paying off Nic.
I do believe Nic played a part in her becoming Queen. I have my own favored theory, that I constantly mention (TTMurphy goes into past to become Mab.) Full circle: Nic beats Murphy up in Skin Game. Nic helps Murphy become Mab. Murphy/Mab thwarts Nic's plans in Skin Game.
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I am still thinking of a situation where Mab had to be at two places, Lea wasn't available, and Nico is your backup option.
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I am still thinking of a situation where Mab had to be at two places, Lea wasn't available, and Nico is your backup option.
Alternatively, Lea hadnt yet developed enough, either on her own or on Mab's coat tails (toot style), to be useful for what mab needed way back then. It was in the very beginning of her Rule, and I doubt Lea started out being stronger than the Court's Lady. The WOJ /sort/ of implies this, that Lea gaining power after this lesson was learned which solved the issue better than handing out favors to big powerful things.
2015 Grid Daily interview
At a Con you attended recently, you mentioned that the reason Mab owes favors to some unsavory characters is due to debts she accrued when the Winter Fey first assumed the duty of manning the Wall.
Regarding that favor, it was a situation where Mab needed to be in two places at once and couldn’t. So Anduriel loaned her Nicodemus to step into one of the places she couldn’t be. Man has since learned better than that and now she has somebody that will step in for her when she needs to be in two places at once. Which is why the Leanansidhe has got so much power and generally shows up whenever Mab isn’t there. If you’ll notice in the books, the Leanansidhe and Mab very rarely show up in the same place at the same time. That’s because Leanansidhe is covering things that Mab should be doing, while Mab is wasting her time on Harry Dresden. And vice versa.
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Alternatively, Lea hadnt yet developed enough, either on her own or on Mab's coat tails (toot style), to be useful for what mab needed way back then. It was in the very beginning of her Rule, and I doubt Lea started out being stronger than the Court's Lady. The WOJ /sort/ of implies this, that Lea gaining power after this lesson was learned which solved the issue better than handing out favors to big powerful things.
It's a fun chicken-and-egg question, for me, too; did Lea get all the power she has by hitching her wagon to Mab (like Toot to Harry) or did she acquire enough power that she was able to step in for Mab? I think it's a little from column A, a little from column B, but I, for one, would love to see a nearly feral Lea inspiring and draining artists in pre-Christian Europe.
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This needing to be in two places at once is also mentioned in Amber. It led Merlin to speculate that brand had used time travel to do it.
The other option was something along the lines of using his shadow self, but that really didn't seem the option considered then or now.
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It's a fun chicken-and-egg question, for me, too; did Lea get all the power she has by hitching her wagon to Mab (like Toot to Harry) or did she acquire enough power that she was able to step in for Mab? I think it's a little from column A, a little from column B, but I, for one, would love to see a nearly feral Lea inspiring and draining artists in pre-Christian Europe.
Based on this WOJ, ya it's a bit of Both. Lea did a lot of independent Power gathering with her blood-muse stuff, but basically /had/ to get something from the Toot/Coat-tails mechanic.
2012 Beaver Creek signing
The Leansidhe nature seems to conflict with that of Winter - and she seems to be much more Summer-y, since she wears lots of reds and greens and so on.
They're not elementals. They're not divided along the lines of - specifically - of the classical elements. They're more about the elemental portions of the soul, which - okay, that's getting really technical and highfaluting. But the point is, Lea drains people's blood and drinks it, and that was how she made her bones in the fairy world. She's an actual legendary figure, where bards and poets and painters and so on would come to her and seek her inspiration. And she was kind of this vampire-muse - that was the original Leansidhe - that's her original story. And in the DF universe that was how she made her bones, that's how she impressed big Mab. It was like - oh wow - you took these guys who were out there just seeking to create something beautiful and yet increased your dark and evil power - Well done!
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We have further evidence now that the ladies, Queens are to be considered "fraternal twins' which is one of the ways I've taken Jim's woj to mean regarding Mab and Titania.
For just a fraction of a second, Maeve’s smug exterior changed, becoming graver, more somber. In that instant, she and Lily looked as though they might have been fraternal twins. “With absolute certainty.”
(included in another thread)
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Just a bit of trivia for the Battle of Hastings ... It took place approximately 7 miles northwest of Hastings, close to the present-day town of Battle, East Sussex. Not really adding to the thread, but I found it interesting.
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They named the town Battle after the battle? Seems like a lack of imagination.
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lol.
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They named the town Battle after the battle? Seems like a lack of imagination.
I really don't know ... LOL
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I think it is inspired. It is them saying the Battle occurred right here folks, not over there in Hastings.
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But you have to admit that "The Battle of Hastings" sounds better than "The battle of this field that will be one day the City of Battle".
Right?
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But you have to admit that "The Battle of Hastings" sounds better than "The battle of this field that will be one day the City of Battle".
Right?
It is hilarious, but there is a WHOLE LOT of that kind of thing throughout military history. Bunker Hill is probably the most famous. It was fought a stone's throw away from Bunker Hill, on Breed's Hill.
Hastings is so critical to Western Civilization that I don't think I can possibly overstate its importance to history. It reshaped the political, social, and cultural landscape to a ludicrous degree, for centuries. I mean, we're speaking English largely as a result of the Battle of Hastings (and, you know, Chaucer), and that's not even touching the political ripple effect.
I guess that's the kind of thing that happens when you have a starborn running around unchecked.
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I wonder if that starborn is with us today, just in a dormant state.
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I wonder if that starborn is with us today, just in a dormant state.
Nah, William the Conqueror is long dead. (/speculation)
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I wonder if that starborn is with us today, just in a dormant state.
Encased in Green Crystal?
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Likely. Or he gave up his magic, something like Mac. I thought about Nic too, but with his Starborn ability lessened, maybe because he broke so many promises/deals.