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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: kbrizzle on December 11, 2017, 07:58:32 PM
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I recall that somewhere in Death Masks, Harry is told by Father Forthill or one of the KotC that the last time Nicodemus & Tessa worked together resulted in the Black Death in the 13th century.
Later, in Cold Days, when Harry is at Mother Summer & Winter’s cabin, he sees a whole lot of diseases kept in jars on MS’ side of the cabin. One of the jars is labeled Black Death.
Do you think there’s a connection?
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Sure, why not? It's an interesting idea. Anduriel helped Mab out with bilocation at one point, per Word of Jim, before Lea took up the job full time. So there had to be some kind of working relationship; maybe one of the Denarians we haven't seen had a rat aspect that was able to spread it through London.
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I recall that somewhere in Death Masks, Harry is told by Father Forthill or one of the KotC that the last time Nicodemus & Tessa worked together resulted in the Black Death in the 13th century.
Later, in Cold Days, when Harry is at Mother Summer & Winter’s cabin, he sees a whole lot of diseases kept in jars on MS’ side of the cabin. One of the jars is labeled Black Death.
Do you think there’s a connection?
I was most interested in the one that was labeled wormwood.
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I was most interested in the one that was labeled wormwood.
I was just interested in the whole concept this warm loving Mother has a very dark side when it comes to some of her children. She's kinda looking forward to that era of rampant growth Bob mentions in SK.
I've asked before, here again... If MW secretly cares for reality in her own way, doth not MS want to destroy it in her own way too?
Although Wormwood and it's connection to biblical apocalypse has been an interest of mine.
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Mothers nature can be very mercurial.
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It's all about balance. Time to live, time to die. Time for Growth, time for Death.
The mothers are no different.
What I find really interesting is how much of a Boy Scout they are. "Be prepared".
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It's all about balance. Time to live, time to die. Time for Growth, time for Death.
The Thunder Perfect Mind (http://gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html)
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For I am the first and the last.
I am the honored one and the scorned one.
I am the whore and the holy one.
I am the wife and the virgin.
I am <the mother> and the daughter.
I am the members of my mother.
I am the barren one
and many are her sons.
I am she whose wedding is great,
and I have not taken a husband.
I am the midwife and she who does not bear.
I am the solace of my labor pains.
I am the bride and the bridegroom,
and it is my husband who begot me.
I am the mother of my father
and the sister of my husband
and he is my offspring.
I am the slave of him who prepared me
...
For I am knowledge and ignorance.
I am shame and boldness.
I am shameless; I am ashamed.
I am strength and I am fear.
I am war and peace.
Give heed to me.
...
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Out of curiousity, I looked this poem up. It was a poem found with Gnostic teachings circa 350 AD. It is about a female savior or Goddess similar to Isis. There is an an essay about the poem that retitles it "When nonsense makes sense."
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I was just interested in the whole concept this warm loving Mother has a very dark side when it comes to some of her children. She's kinda looking forward to that era of rampant growth Bob mentions in SK.
I've asked before, here again... If MW secretly cares for reality in her own way, doth not MS want to destroy it in her own way too?
Although Wormwood and it's connection to biblical apocalypse has been an interest of mine.
That is likely true; there's a yin and yang aspect to both of them.
As far as wormwood goes, I've made it something of a Biblical study of it myself. (For those wondering, Wormwood is mentioned in Revelations 8:11, as the Third Trumpet of the Apocalypse.) King James, Rev. 8:11:
And the name of the star is Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Wormwood is a star that falls from the heavens and lands on "a third of the rivers and on the springs." The reference to Wormwood immediately made me think of "stars and stones," and of meteor showers, and delivers a waterborne plague (think typhoid). One of the tropes I like about apocalyptic stories is when they find cool ways to incorporate Revelations as prophecies, but with fun symbolic interpretation. As a teenager, I even had it in my head that I was going to "break new ground and write a Revelations story with awesome interpretations of the Four Horsemen, with one of them being a biker and another driving a tank and—" you get the idea; I was young and didn't understand what "new ground" really was. I probably still have my notes on that terrible story somewhere. I should find them and read them to humble myself.
Anyway, I'm assuming that the BAT will include all apocalypses, because this is Jim Butcher we're talking about, so I'm figuring Wormwood's going to be a big thing that happens (or that Harry has to prevent from happening). Note that it says a third of the rivers and springs are tainted, not that a third of humanity is killed. That comes later, in Revelations 9, when four angels lead something that looks suspiciously like the Wild Hunt to kill a third of those remaining on earth.
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That is likely true; there's a yin and yang aspect to both of them.
As far as wormwood goes, I've made it something of a Biblical study of it myself. (For those wondering, Wormwood is mentioned in Revelations 8:11, as the Third Trumpet of the Apocalypse.) King James, Rev. 8:11:
Wormwood is a star that falls from the heavens and lands on "a third of the rivers and on the springs." The reference to Wormwood immediately made me think of "stars and stones," and of meteor showers, and delivers a waterborne plague (think typhoid).
This I think is the basis for stars and stones, the whole meaning of which isn't clear, but may involve the coffins around MW's, the Stone table, The items of the vault or the 5 stars 'on Lady Night's neck' in CH One of the tropes I like about apocalyptic stories is when they find cool ways to incorporate Revelations as prophecies, but with fun symbolic interpretation. As a teenager, I even had it in my head that I was going to "break new ground and write a Revelations story with awesome interpretations of the Four Horsemen, with one of them being a biker and another driving a tank and—" you get the idea; I was young and didn't understand what "new ground" really was. I probably still have my notes on that terrible story somewhere. I should find them and read them to humble myself.
Oh my yes, do you know even HALF of the theories I have on the horsemen and how they are being used in the DF (hint, it, all of it, is revolving around the Horsemen and the Judge(with exception to the Original Darkness/Slowest Evil Chronos, by any other name)
Anyway, I'm assuming that the BAT will include all apocalypses, because this is Jim Butcher we're talking about, so I'm figuring Wormwood's going to be a big thing that happens (or that Harry has to prevent from happening).
Of course :) I think more that each is a layer of the same thing perhaps, like the rest of it.Note that it says a third of the rivers and springs are tainted, not that a third of humanity is killed.
I take that, in this instance actually, to mean 1/3 of the KotC, the weapons themselves, Fall to Evil usages. Having Mjolnir make a reference in Michael's hands and Butters recreating the sword of Faith based on a movie.... pretty sure the Blood of the innocent would make the sword change for the worse. That comes later, in Revelations 9, when four angels lead something that looks suspiciously like the Wild Hunt to kill a third of those remaining on earth.
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I was talking to my son the other day about the BAT and the apocalypses.
He suggested that maybe all of the various apocalypses either have happened already, or will. Meaning that perhaps Ragnarok has occurred and the Christians Apocalypse is next, or something like that.
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Maybe Ragnorak happened around the time that Mab took over guarding the outer gates?
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The Mayan calandar was supposed to end in 2012. Instead, the RCV, which seems to be Mayan connected, ended in 2010. Mainly due to the mistake of kidnapping Harry's daughter.
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The Mayan calandar was supposed to end in 2012. Instead, the RCV, which seems to be Mayan connected, ended in 2010. Mainly due to the mistake of kidnapping Harry's daughter.
Well, you can't be right every time.
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Well, still good guessing at an event that happened over a 1000 years in the future.
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I was talking to my son the other day about the BAT and the apocalypses.
He suggested that maybe all of the various apocalypses either have happened already, or will. Meaning that perhaps Ragnarok has occurred and the Christians Apocalypse is next, or something like that.
It could relate to the changing of the guard at the Outer Gates.
I do find this quote from Gard to be interesting in relation to this:
"Einherjar. Give them a little sip of renewed mortality, and four thousand years of discipline go right out the window."
1. Viking mythology simply does not go back to 2,000 B.C. Earliest records of Odin (or Woden, at the time) are Germanic in origin, dating to Julius Caesar's Commentary on the Gallic War, circa 1 B.C., where he was actually referred to as Mercury, because Romans were not particularly interested in understanding their enemies' religion. We're talking Bronze Age, predating proto-Nordic migration (which is currently estimated somewhere around 1,000 BC, if I remember). Odin was much, much, much, much older than Viking/Gallic culture. This is around the time Stonehenge was completed (anywhere from 3,000-2,000 B.C.. The stones themselves have been dated to somewhere between 2,400-2,200 BC, but there are so many conflicting reports, it's stupid, and there is some evidence that activity around the site involved rituals and constructions that date to 8,000 B.C., but that's a discussion for somewhere else).
Anyway, this supports Kringle/Vaderrung's intimations that he's changed a lot over the years, and may be something of a Time Abyss. Towards the end of the Nordic Neolithic Period (around 3,000-2,000 BC, right in our time frame), there is a ton of evidence that suggests new tribes of proto-Indo-Europeans moved into the region, which changed the language, and promoted the so-called Battle Axe Culture. In short, precisely the kind of people who would like Odin (or proto-Odin) as a deity. I posit that, in the Dresden Files, these are the people who participated in the 1,200 BC Nordic migration to Gaul, and mixing the people changed their culture, mythology, and deities, to eventually give us Odin.
The above might've been a little in the weeds, but Nordic and Viking Culture was something of a study of mine once upon a time, and I found this relevant.
2. Why are they mortal now?
This suggests either they have already fulfilled their purpose, that Valhalla is gone, or that their purpose is about to be fulfilled. I lean towards the latter, because in all of the stories, the Einherjaren lose.
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It could relate to the changing of the guard at the Outer Gates.
I do find this quote from Gard to be interesting in relation to this:
1. Viking mythology simply does not go back to 2,000 B.C. Earliest records of Odin (or Woden, at the time) are Germanic in origin, dating to Julius Caesar's Commentary on the Gallic War, circa 1 B.C., where he was actually referred to as Mercury, because Romans were not particularly interested in understanding their enemies' religion. We're talking Bronze Age, predating proto-Nordic migration (which is currently estimated somewhere around 1,000 BC, if I remember). Odin was much, much, much, much older than Viking/Gallic culture. This is around the time Stonehenge was completed (anywhere from 3,000-2,000 B.C.. The stones themselves have been dated to somewhere between 2,400-2,200 BC, but there are so many conflicting reports, it's stupid, and there is some evidence that activity around the site involved rituals and constructions that date to 8,000 B.C., but that's a discussion for somewhere else).
Anyway, this supports Kringle/Vaderrung's intimations that he's changed a lot over the years, and may be something of a Time Abyss. Towards the end of the Nordic Neolithic Period (around 3,000-2,000 BC, right in our time frame), there is a ton of evidence that suggests new tribes of proto-Indo-Europeans moved into the region, which changed the language, and promoted the so-called Battle Axe Culture. In short, precisely the kind of people who would like Odin (or proto-Odin) as a deity. I posit that, in the Dresden Files, these are the people who participated in the 1,200 BC Nordic migration to Gaul, and mixing the people changed their culture, mythology, and deities, to eventually give us Odin.
The above might've been a little in the weeds, but Nordic and Viking Culture was something of a study of mine once upon a time, and I found this relevant.
2. Why are they mortal now?
This suggests either they have already fulfilled their purpose, that Valhalla is gone, or that their purpose is about to be fulfilled. I lean towards the latter, because in all of the stories, the Einherjaren lose.
Perhaps They did lose, but then they chose to become more mortal, like Odin, giving up some power in exchange for access to Free Will once again, which seems to be one of the Ultimate Powers. They can now become more than their fated paths predicted long ago.
As for the original comment about Mother Summer and the Nickles, if Mab was willing to deal in good faith with Anduriel, I don't see why Mother Summer wouldn't either. It comes down to what Nick or Tessa paid for the plague, or do they owe a marker to Mother Summer?
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Perhaps They did lose, but then they chose to become more mortal, like Odin, giving up some power in exchange for access to Free Will once again, which seems to be one of the Ultimate Powers. They can now become more than their fated paths predicted long ago.
Maybe; that would require Ragnarok having happened, and, in my opinion, implicates the changing of the Outer Gates guardianship from Norse pantheon to Winter as Ragnarok; not the End, but the Change.
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Maybe; that would require Ragnarok having happened, and, in my opinion, implicates the changing of the Outer Gates guardianship from Norse pantheon to Winter as Ragnarok; not the End, but the Change.
This is about what I think. Maybe around Hastings? And that is why Mab and Tatiana haven't talked.
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This is about what I think. Maybe around Hastings? And that is why Mab and Tatiana haven't talked.
I wrote a post a while ago about Hastings marking the end of the Viking Age (seriously, the Viking Age ends about two weeks before Hastings; Stamford Bridge was a deathblow to their influence), and how I think William the Conqueror was a Starborn. It was such a monumental historical shift, a new status quo that persists today (Anglo-Normans sit on the English Throne right now, and have since 1066), and Titania's "I haven't spoken to my sister since Hastings" is too significant when paired with Jim's statements about the previous Winter Lady and "the last time a Starborn was running around."
My belief is that the Winter Court was established before Hastings, and had accumulated enough power and influence to take over the Outer Gates from Odin after the Vikings' defeat at Stamford Bridge, which was Odin's last attempt to hang on to his power. I believe that the previous Winter Lady was killed at Hastings—Summer and Winter had taken opposing sides, in my hypothesis—and that is why they haven't spoken. Mab is too furious with Titania after the death of her daughter.
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My belief is that the Winter Court was established before Hastings, and had accumulated enough power and influence to take over the Outer Gates from Odin after the Vikings' defeat at Stamford Bridge, which was Odin's last attempt to hang on to his power. I believe that the previous Winter Lady was killed at Hastings—Summer and Winter had taken opposing sides, in my hypothesis—and that is why they haven't spoken. Mab is too furious with Titania after the death of her daughter.
That is what I think is happening now. I think the vampires were trying to be the ones to take over from Winter. The dinner that Maggie Sr, Ariana, and Lord Raith were at was the beginning of the planning.
When Eb wouldn't attend, the vampires decided that the Wizards had to be taken out so as to allow the Vamps to be able to create more troops for the defense of the Outer Gates. Thus the plans for the War with the Wouncil. But it was started a bit too early and they weren't able to put them away quickly enough. The spell at Chichen Iza wasn't just to take out Harry and Eb, but all Wizards.
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That is what I think is happening now. I think the vampires were trying to be the ones to take over from Winter. The dinner that Maggie Sr, Ariana, and Lord Raith were at was the beginning of the planning.
When Eb wouldn't attend, the vampires decided that the Wizards had to be taken out so as to allow the Vamps to be able to create more troops for the defense of the Outer Gates. Thus the plans for the War with the Wouncil. But it was started a bit too early and they weren't able to put them away quickly enough. The spell at Chichen Iza wasn't just to take out Harry and Eb, but all Wizards.
Sounds plausible to me.
Maybe that was why Maggie left; she realized that Papa Raith had become compromised by the Outsiders, and that the vampires might be compromised. She decided that Humanity had to take up defense of the Gates, and wanted to make a starborn to get the ball rolling and upset the balance of power in the world—which, as it turns out, is working pretty dang well.
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I really hope we get some more info on the Hastings thing.
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I really hope we get some more info on the Hastings thing.
Maybe once the BAT is published, Jim will write some prequels.
Hastings, Kemmler, others
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Add Maggie Sr and Eb, Merlin, LtW rowdy war days to the list.
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That is what I think is happening now. I think the vampires were trying to be the ones to take over from Winter. The dinner that Maggie Sr, Ariana, and Lord Raith were at was the beginning of the planning.
When Eb wouldn't attend, the vampires decided that the Wizards had to be taken out so as to allow the Vamps to be able to create more troops for the defense of the Outer Gates. Thus the plans for the War with the Wouncil. But it was started a bit too early and they weren't able to put them away quickly enough. The spell at Chichen Iza wasn't just to take out Harry and Eb, but all Wizards.
The question is, what was Maggie Sr's plan there?
As in, I can see why the RCV and WCV would want to take over from Winter, but not what they'd do for Maggie. She wasn't called LeFay because of some long-term hatred of all things Faerie, so that isn't a reason - in fact, it seems a counter-indication of her being part of some plot to displace the Faerie Courts.
A far more logical story, to me, is that the RCV and WCV were plotting to displace the White Council from its pre-eminence (as a prelude to taking over the Outer Gates and the human world), and Maggie wanted it displaced too (as a prelude to her installing a new organisation on human Wizards). This worked together nicely until their secondary motives started to clash - Maggie did not want a bunch of vampires to rule the human world any more than she wanted that from the ossified White Council.
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Avernite,
I can see Maggie Sr as being a conduit from the Vampires to the Wouncil. I'd bet that the Vamps knew who her father was and they were looking for a better representative from the Wouncil than a dark sheep like Maggie Sr.
I could totally see them not telling her that they wanted to take over Humanity. That may have been why she finally broke free from Lord Raith.
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Avernite,
I can see Maggie Sr as being a conduit from the Vampires to the Wouncil. I'd bet that the Vamps knew who her father was and they were looking for a better representative from the Wouncil than a dark sheep like Maggie Sr.
I could totally see them not telling her that they wanted to take over Humanity. That may have been why she finally broke free from Lord Raith.
That is more or less in line with what I think, except I don't think Arianna and Lord Raith would involve their pawns in the beginning of their planning.
Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if this plot was long-lasting enough that the 'dinner' was nowhere near the beginning and yet it was still the same plot played out in Harry's war with the RCV.
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That is more or less in line with what I think, except I don't think Arianna and Lord Raith would involve their pawns in the beginning of their planning.
Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if this plot was long-lasting enough that the 'dinner' was nowhere near the beginning and yet it was still the same plot played out in Harry's war with the RCV.
I agree it was a longer plan, but I think they brought Maggie in early-ish. I think she might have overheard something and played into them. Letting them know about her father.