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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: wardenferry419 on December 11, 2017, 04:43:09 PM

Title: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 11, 2017, 04:43:09 PM
 If you could choose one person who died with the series to not be among the dead; who would it be?  At the moment, I would chose Carmichael; he was only in the first two books. I know we got Rawlins later; but, I think Carmichael was underused.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Rasins on December 11, 2017, 06:20:23 PM
I like Carmichael, but I think Kim Delaney would have been a good, stabilizing effect on Harry, as his apprentice.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Kindler on December 11, 2017, 08:22:40 PM
Bianca, who I think was a bit one-dimensional as a villain and could have been cooler as a persistent threat as Jim grew as a writer.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 11, 2017, 09:07:17 PM
While she seem interesting as far as being a power threat; Harry out-grew her.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Mira on December 11, 2017, 09:18:15 PM


   Morgan.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 11, 2017, 11:43:31 PM
Carmichael dying was what sold me on the series, fwiw.  My willingness to engage with a long series in which people have dangerous adventures is largely based on being able to believe in the danger, at levels of there being permanent, no take-back, consequences.  I was unsure about whether JB was not pulling his punches too much around the time of PG and WN, am somewhat more convinced since, though not entirely; nothing bores me more than plot armour.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 11, 2017, 11:44:31 PM
Morgan.

I thought his death was pretty close to perfect - the only thing really wrong with it is him changing his position on Harry just as he dies.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 12, 2017, 12:18:23 AM
I thought his death was pretty close to perfect - the only thing really wrong with it is him changing his position on Harry just as he dies.
How so, please?
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 12, 2017, 01:35:53 AM
How so, please?

People who have been asserting something as firmly as we have seen Morgan assert Harry isn't innocent recanting on their deathbed to a more sympathetic position is neither convincingly realistic nor a trope I am fond of; and this holds whether Morgan genuinely believes Harry is guilty or not.  Either way it didn't ring true to me.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Ananda on December 12, 2017, 03:32:35 AM
Cat Sith. :sadmeowface: He would have been a great influence on Dresden and broken up the saccharine vibe.

Deirdre’s death was good. I just wish she had more attention in the books prior.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: LordDresden2 on December 12, 2017, 03:35:46 AM
People who have been asserting something as firmly as we have seen Morgan assert Harry isn't innocent recanting on their deathbed to a more sympathetic position is neither convincingly realistic nor a trope I am fond of; and this holds whether Morgan genuinely believes Harry is guilty or not.  Either way it didn't ring true to me.

Morgan had accepted that Harry wasn't guilty as far back as Dead Beat, and said so.  It wasn't a last-minute change.

Morgan still distrusted Harry after that, but it was Harry's recklessness and impulsiveness that bothered Morgan, not that he thought Harry was a traitor or a warlock.  What changed for Morgan in Dead Beat (sorry, that should have been Turn Coat ) was that over the course of that last adventure, he came to genuinely like and respect Harry, as he saw the other side of him (and of course Harry has grown up a lot since their earlier interactions, too).
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: LordDresden2 on December 12, 2017, 03:38:20 AM
Carmichael dying was what sold me on the series, fwiw. 

I tend to agree with this.  It wasn't the only reason, but it was a good one.  It was an instance where bad decisions (in this case mostly Karrin's) led to bad results, and the bad results fell on a relatively innocent victim.  Not nice, but like real life all too often is.

The death I sort of regret in story terms is Maeve.  I liked her as a character, if not as a person, and I would have liked to see more of her (no pun intended, the obligatory joke about what was left of her to see can be assumed to have been made).
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Griffyn612 on December 12, 2017, 03:53:51 AM
If you could choose one person who died with the series to not be among the dead; who would it be? 
I'd normally say Susan, but since I'm hoping to see her and some others in Mirror Mirror, I'll go with someone dead and gone...

Simon Petrovich.

Cat Sith. :sadmeowface: He would have been a great influence on Dresden and broken up the saccharine vibe.
Lulz that you think Sith is dead.

Personally, I'm hoping for Cat Sith Who Prowls Behind to make a future appearance.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Ananda on December 12, 2017, 04:03:04 AM
Lulz that you think Sith is dead.

Personally, I'm hoping for Cat Sith Who Prowls Behind to make a future appearance.
Whether his flesh is still animated or not, the rascal himself is gone. N did a personalityectomy on him in the book.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 12, 2017, 08:48:43 AM
I'd normally say Susan, but since I'm hoping to see her and some others in Mirror Mirror, I'll go with someone dead and gone...

Simon Petrovich.
Lulz that you think Sith is dead.

Personally, I'm hoping for Cat Sith Who Prowls Behind to make a future appearance.
lol ;D
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 12, 2017, 09:49:02 AM
People who have been asserting something as firmly as we have seen Morgan assert Harry isn't innocent recanting on their deathbed to a more sympathetic position is neither convincingly realistic nor a trope I am fond of; and this holds whether Morgan genuinely believes Harry is guilty or not.  Either way it didn't ring true to me.
I get your meaning. Kinda like a lifelong atheist finding God on his deathbed.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 12, 2017, 09:53:56 AM
I'd normally say Susan, but since I'm hoping to see her and some others in Mirror Mirror, I'll go with someone dead and gone...

Simon Petrovich.
Lulz that you think Sith is dead.

Personally, I'm hoping for Cat Sith Who Prowls Behind to make a future appearance.
You may be right; but, I am still holding to the theory that Simon is hanging around in Cowl-ish ways.I really love the pun of Simon Cowl.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Arjan on December 12, 2017, 12:20:17 PM
People who have been asserting something as firmly as we have seen Morgan assert Harry isn't innocent recanting on their deathbed to a more sympathetic position is neither convincingly realistic nor a trope I am fond of; and this holds whether Morgan genuinely believes Harry is guilty or not.  Either way it didn't ring true to me.
It was not at his dead bed, it was at the beginning of the book. It was clear that they both got a better understanding of each other during the years and that understanding was won the hard way, not with a sudden soul gaze or so. Morgans understanding of Harry at the beginning of Turn Coat was already enough for him to go to Chicago of all places. The hardest thing for both actually is to acknowledge it. Dying might make that easier, I don't know.

But Harry's understanding had grown too. These were not the same people that wanted to kill each other in Summer Knight.

I don't like dead bed confessions or conversions either but this was neither of these, he just discussed his actions and said some things Harry needed to know.

Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 02:09:55 AM
It was not at his dead bed, it was at the beginning of the book. It was clear that they both got a better understanding of each other during the years and that understanding was won the hard way, not with a sudden soul gaze or so.

All of which would have worked far better for me without Morgan's dying statement.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Arjan on December 13, 2017, 06:43:42 AM
All of which would have worked far better for me without Morgan's dying statement.
That was for those people who don't believe anything before it is explicitly written down. Everything he said was also clear from his actions although nice from him he told Harry about not telling about Molly but that lead to the explanation so...

Luccio  did not tell about Molly either which suggests it was not that clear a case as Harry thought or maybe that was for Molly's benefit as well.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 13, 2017, 10:49:12 AM
Is there a bad guy that got their "just desserts" that people wish was around for another meal?
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Kindler on December 13, 2017, 02:22:01 PM
Is there a bad guy that got their "just desserts" that people wish was around for another meal?

Jenny Greenteeth. Her illusion specialization made her a good counter to Molly, and I'd have liked to have seen Molly develop her own nemeses before she ascended.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Rasins on December 13, 2017, 07:08:20 PM
Jenny Greenteeth. Her illusion specialization made her a good counter to Molly, and I'd have liked to have seen Molly develop her own nemeses before she ascended.

She has ... the Fomor servitor .... I forgot his name.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 13, 2017, 07:13:14 PM
TWC, if'n he hadn't I don't think we'd have anywhere near the same story ;D
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 07:39:30 PM
That was for those people who don't believe anything before it is explicitly written down.

And I suppose it's not as if I don't bump into those people a fair bit.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 13, 2017, 11:47:00 PM
TWC, if'n he hadn't I don't think we'd have anywhere near the same story ;D
You lost me with TWC, don't recognize those initials unless I am having a senile moment.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 13, 2017, 11:49:11 PM
You lost me with TWC, don't recognize those initials unless I am having a senile moment.
Er... maybe lol. The White Christ...
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 14, 2017, 12:03:08 AM
Double Duh on me.  Excuse me while I go guzzle some green tea with ginseng and try to find what is left of me brain.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Hollorr on December 14, 2017, 12:09:18 AM
Lash
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 14, 2017, 12:14:43 AM
Lash I do miss. Her bits with Harry made him smarter.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: exartiem on December 14, 2017, 01:43:48 AM
People who have been asserting something as firmly as we have seen Morgan assert Harry isn't innocent recanting on their deathbed to a more sympathetic position is neither convincingly realistic nor a trope I am fond of; and this holds whether Morgan genuinely believes Harry is guilty or not.  Either way it didn't ring true to me.

I saw it the other way.  He confirmed Harry's suspicion that it wasn't personal, that Morgan was simply trying to terrify Harry into staying good.  And that Morgan had come to respect Harry.

My problem with Morgan's death was that I expected Harry, after Morgan's compliment, to say something like "You just had to suck all the fun out of me getting to watch you die."  Leaving Morgan to die with a smile on his face.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: forumghost on December 14, 2017, 03:36:21 AM
Lash I do miss. Her bits with Harry made him smarter.

It's kinda sad but yes, Harry's best and most positive  female relationship was probably the one with the fragment of a fallen angel that only existed inside his head.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 14, 2017, 09:20:20 AM
In some ways, I think you're right.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 14, 2017, 09:54:04 AM
Particularly when you consider, the reason for this is she's the only one he couldn't hide his true self from. She basically fell in love with him in so much as that she sacrificed herself and performed the act of creation from it via Lash.

*Also part of why I consider the Reaper more likely to be Susan, her sacrifice should have been a similar act within her own soul.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 14, 2017, 10:03:18 AM
Hmm... I think that the way Morgan died was only natural.  There was a piece of information that he had to tell Dresden, because his action was contrary to what Harry believed Morgan would do.

I saw it the other way.  He confirmed Harry's suspicion that it wasn't personal, that Morgan was simply trying to terrify Harry into staying good.  And that Morgan had come to respect Harry.

My problem with Morgan's death was that I expected Harry, after Morgan's compliment, to say something like "You just had to suck all the fun out of me getting to watch you die."  Leaving Morgan to die with a smile on his face.
Dresden didn't have a normal banter going on with Morgan. The funny exchanges were generally based on Harry being a lippy bugger and Morgan getting angry about it. It was obvious, that they had trouble communicating, because even though their relationship did improve as they learn more about each other, there is no true bonding. Mutual respect, collegiality,  but no bonding.

I miss Lash, but her death was well written and is actually a good character building plot device.

I think that Kim could have survived. She basically died because Harry was being a bit careless. Sure, she was an adult [ iirc ], but you don't let a rookie play around with some things even when they are adults, because despite being adults they are missing some understanding on the matter and may mess up.

If Kim was to be killed, we could have had her for at least 2-3 more books to have more impact. It would have been wonderful to see her interactions with Molly. Kim wasn't going to be a full blown wizard, because of power difference. But she could have been kind of an older sister character for Molly.

Particularly when you consider, the reason for this is she's the only one he couldn't hide his true self from. She basically fell in love with him in so much as that she sacrificed herself and performed the act of creation from it via Lash.

*Also part of why I consider the Reaper more likely to be Susan, her sacrifice should have been a similar act within her own soul.
The Reaper?

Edit:
I just realized: What if Kim Delaney is in Mirror Mirror... ? And Molly is not Fae ... Hmmmm.... I'm seeing some very nice stories coming from there :D
Storm Frond -> Fool Moon -> Grave -Peril -> Summer Night -> Death Masks -> Blood Rites -> Dead Beat -> Proven Guilty -> White Knight -> Small Favour -> Turn Coat -> Changes -> Ghost Story -> Cold Days -> Skin Game -> Peace Talks -> Mirror, Mirror -> fork and now we'll get all the books from the Mirror, Mirror universe :D BANZAI!
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 14, 2017, 10:18:09 AM
For someone that had such small air time, the Reaper has gotten alot of attention and speculation. I think I have seen theories where she could be Susan, Lash, and Harry's mom.
Harry didn't let Kim play in the big leagues. He tried to warn her against it. She took it upon herself and it got her killed.
Though, the idea of Kim living and being a big sister to Molly does have some appeal.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 14, 2017, 10:25:19 AM
I just hope that Jim won't go all Simon R. Green and turn Harry's mom into a raving psycho who faked her death only to return as a villain.

Although it would be kinda funny for Harry to go full John Taylor in one of the short stories:"I opened my Third Eye, my Private Eye..."

For someone that had such small air time, the Reaper has gotten alot of attention and speculation. I think I have seen theories where she could be Susan, Lash, and Harry's mom.
Harry didn't let Kim play in the big leagues. He tried to warn her against it. She took it upon herself and it got her killed.
Though, the idea of Kim living and being a big sister to Molly does have some appeal.

I agree. I mean, it's there as a contrast to Harry going full disclosure, so I kinda get the point. But again, Harry is a worrywart who meddles a lot. So I think it wouldn't be out of character for him to stalk Kim and try to help her out... openly or in secret, that's another story.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 14, 2017, 10:37:29 AM
Is that series good overall? I expect  the first 2 or 3 to be rough as the writer finds his voice. But, as a whole, does flow well?
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 14, 2017, 10:48:00 AM
Is that series good overall? I expect  the first 2 or 3 to be rough as the writer finds his voice. But, as a whole, does flow well?
Nightside is... well... depends on what you are looking for in a book series. I think it's fair to say, that the first half of the series is good, although John Taylor has some serious mommy issues [ a lot worse than Harry ]. But if you take it as a kind of parody set as a Funny fantasy noir series, it's readable. Still, the 2nd half of the series is kind of a stretch. Maybe if the order of the books was a bit different and some plot alterations, it would be better. But if you want over-the-top hardcore hardboiled characters doing crazy things mostly happening in a tiny pocket universe that is connected to London... you'll be fine :) I didn't check the British audiobooks, but Mark Vietor does a good job.

Quote from: Something from The Nightside
One

Money Comes Walking In

Private eyes come in all shapes and sizes, and none of them look like television stars. Some do insurance work, some hang around cheap hotels with camcorders hoping to get evidence for divorce cases, and damn few ever get to investigate complicated murder mysteries. Some chase things that don't exist, or shouldn't. Me, I find things. Sometimes I'd rather not find them, but that comes with the territory.

The flaking sign on the door in those days said Taylor Investigations. I'm Taylor. Tall, dark and not particularly handsome. I bear the scars of old cases proudly, and I never let down a client. Provided they've paid at least some cash up front.

Sample on audible: https://www.audible.com/pd/Sci-Fi-Fantasy/Something-from-the-Nightside-Audiobook/B002VA9134

It mixes serious issues with some craziness. For example: A serious consideration to solve some kind of a problem with a backpack nuke. The only reason they don't do that it's missing a component, making the nuke not working :D

- oh and I probably should add, that I found Dresden files thanks to Nightside :) I was looking for something similar to Nightside.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 14, 2017, 11:09:55 AM
Quote
I just hope that Jim won't go all Simon R. Green and turn Harry's mom into a raving psycho who faked her death only to return as a villain
Er.. actually... I wonder if when she died she didn't more or less imprint onto Nemesis due to exposure to Harry's birth/existence(sort of how the walker fearbinger took on the abstract formation of the fear cause by Molly)
The Reaper in GS who stands guard over father forthill. People say that's Lash's afterlife... I say it's Susan's and that's why she is covered in Ink, it represents who she choose to be in life when she became a member of the fellowship and used the tattoo's to hide/control the darkness within(which is interesting in that her silver eye's have been associated with Outside/vampires in general)
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 14, 2017, 11:23:38 AM
Oh, Reapergirl... Hmm... interesting. I didn't think much about her. I liked that character. Just as I think of Mab, I find her very dateable :)

And since Jim admitted to being too lazy to create single-use-characters, I expect us meeting the charming entity again.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 14, 2017, 11:31:01 AM
Oh, Reapergirl... Hmm... interesting. I didn't think much about her. I liked that character. Just as I think of Mab, I find her very dateable :)

And since Jim admitted to being too lazy to create single-use-characters, I expect us meeting the charming entity again.
You definitely like them dark and dangerous, firestarter. Thanks for the heads-up on Nightshade. I have been curious about it.

I hope we see the Reaper again, too.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 14, 2017, 11:47:48 AM
You definitely like them dark and dangerous, firestarter. Thanks for the heads-up on Nightshade. I have been curious about it.

I hope we see the Reaper again, too.
I like personalities similar to mine :) doing your duty to the best of your ability. Whatever is necessary but sticking to the rules.

I also expect the Reapergirl and Harry meeting either in NeverNever or Harry doing another short out-of-body routine, since she's a divine entity and probably can't make herself perceivable like Mr. Sunshine can.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Snark Knight on December 14, 2017, 03:17:25 PM
She has ... the Fomor servitor .... I forgot his name.

His name is / was Listen.

Could be an interesting plot for Molly to cross paths with him again (say, in Peace Talks), now having the power to destroy him, but being forbidden by Mab to take the first shot.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: RobReece on December 14, 2017, 04:40:39 PM
Er.. actually... I wonder if when she died she didn't more or less imprint onto Nemesis due to exposure to Harry's birth/existence(sort of how the walker fearbinger took on the abstract formation of the fear cause by Molly)
The Reaper in GS who stands guard over father forthill. People say that's Lash's afterlife... I say it's Susan's and that's why she is covered in Ink, it represents who she choose to be in life when she became a member of the fellowship and used the tattoo's to hide/control the darkness within(which is interesting in that her silver eye's have been associated with Outside/vampires in general)
the problem with Reapergirl being Susan is that the reapergirl was an angel and people don't become angels.  That's primarily why I believe that it could have been Lash.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 14, 2017, 05:10:45 PM
the problem with Reapergirl being Susan is that the reapergirl was an angel and people don't become angels.  That's primarily why I believe that it could have been Lash.
... What precisely was Lash really that she'd die. DIE mind you, and be reborn in a new form, still an angel?
She was made of Harry, his life, his brain, she could change because she was effectively mortal. She could chose specifically because she gained it from Harry(see woj on Free Will and if Lash got it). What died was not anything to do with an Angel except that it was once printed out by one. Effectively a piece of Harry died, she wasn't like Bonnie gestating to be born.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Arjan on December 14, 2017, 05:43:04 PM
the problem with Reapergirl being Susan is that the reapergirl was an angel and people don't become angels.  That's primarily why I believe that it could have been Lash.
Why not? The angels are extremely secretive about what comes next so we have a lot of room for speculation. They are soul based and very interested in souls. Humans have souls so they are most related to angels. Angels are extremely interested in the development of these souls, we are free to speculate about the reason for that.

Most supernatural creatures are at the root human based so why not angels? There is no real proof but I can not find anything against it either.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: forumghost on December 14, 2017, 07:47:31 PM
the problem with Reapergirl being Susan is that the reapergirl was an angel and people don't become angels.  That's primarily why I believe that it could have been Lash.

Pretty sure that's basically what Michael was during the end of SG thanks to bearing Mr Sunshine's Grace
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 14, 2017, 08:16:21 PM
Why not? The angels are extremely secretive about what comes next so we have a lot of room for speculation. They are soul based and very interested in souls. Humans have souls so they are most related to angels. Angels are extremely interested in the development of these souls, we are free to speculate about the reason for that.

The DV having einherjar and valkyries is pretty solid evidence for not all dead souls being sorted in the angels' cosmology.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 14, 2017, 08:17:44 PM
Storm Frond

Giant kelpies ahoy!
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Arjan on December 14, 2017, 08:53:54 PM
The DV having einherjar and valkyries is pretty solid evidence for not all dead souls being sorted in the angels' cosmology.
And Hades gives us another one. But for those who are, and Susan probably belongs to them, nothing is really known about what comes next.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 14, 2017, 10:59:54 PM
The DV having einherjar and valkyries is pretty solid evidence for not all dead souls being sorted in the angels' cosmology.
I agree, and disagree lol. I think it's evidence that in generations past the roles now held by Christian or at least monotheistic religions on the angelic scale were previously held by others. various reasonings
A) Lasciel's 'closest to true form' from Harry's intuition is the Greek woman. Combine that with the Woj angels may only believe they are the originals and/or from the beginning because of faith and the current Order of Angels may only be risen from the last time the Apocalypse went down.
B) Dragons existed before humans ever came into the balance, So humanoid God's and angels weren't always in true form. Case in point, Dragons could be considered the Gods of the dinosaur era.
C) Naaglooshi are from an Angelic order whom 'retreated' after their job was done, they stayed and were corrupted by it... A previous order. Comparable to Odin saying the Jotun's retreated.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 15, 2017, 12:12:52 AM
the problem with Reapergirl being Susan is that the reapergirl was an angel and people don't become angels.  That's primarily why I believe that it could have been Lash.
Are we sure about this one? I mean, it is the Dresdenverse. Mortals can become Mab. Mortals can gain the power of a god. What not mortals become angels? It probably couldn't happen often but there is always a first time for everything.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 15, 2017, 04:26:13 AM
Are we sure about this one? I mean, it is the Dresdenverse. Mortals can become Mab. Mortals can gain the power of a god. What not mortals become angels? It probably couldn't happen often but there is always a first time for everything.
I admit... I have this crazy idea that Uriel
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Ananda on December 15, 2017, 04:27:29 AM
Is there a bad guy that got their "just desserts" that people wish was around for another meal?
The cute, incestuous red vampire brother and sister couple who loved tennis.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on December 15, 2017, 09:20:03 AM
Linda Randall.  The bad girl who didn't have a heart of gold but still got Harry worked up.  She could have stuck around and made appearances from time to time; screwing up Harry's love life while gathering intel about the Paranet, the Fomor, etc.  She might have become Harry's not quite trustworthy underworld and otherworld snitch.  Unfortunately she was fated to be a standard murder victim in order to complicate Harry's ability to find the Shadowman in Storm Front.   
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 15, 2017, 09:28:39 AM
It is like Star Trek where you can tell which Redshirt is soon to be a corpse.Though, Nelson in PG surprised me by living.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 15, 2017, 01:24:35 PM
Hmm... I don't see Susan coming back in any form except some flashbacks. It would cheapen Changes and her whole struggle.

I'm fairly certain of Reapergirl being a new character. Although, in the end she may end up being used as a single-appearance character.

I admit... I have this crazy idea that Uriel
(click to show/hide)
Hmm... if you go through the bible a few times, you'll end up getting the idea, that Archangel Michael is who actually became Jesus Christ. But it may well be, that Jim is going to play the artist card in this case.

Oh... and I'd rather not be getting too deep into religion debates, but why would a god be mad about his creation doing it's job? Lucifel wouldn't be able to rebel, if God didn't make him able to do that. Given how logic works in religion, the rebellion was a part of God's plan.

Quote from: RobReece
the problem with Reapergirl being Susan is that the reapergirl was an angel and people don't become angels.  That's primarily why I believe that it could have been Lash.
Hmm... You're basically talking about the Kabbalah. And yes, Michael in Skin Game temporarily jumped up a few Sephiroths. So no, it's not out of the question, but resurrecting Susan would basically destroy the impact of Changes. For a story to be enjoyable there have to be bad scenes to highlight the good scenes. It works like this in real life as well.

I agree, and disagree lol. I think it's evidence that in generations past the roles now held by Christian or at least monotheistic religions on the angelic scale were previously held by others. various reasonings
A) Lasciel's 'closest to true form' from Harry's intuition is the Greek woman. Combine that with the Woj angels may only believe they are the originals and/or from the beginning because of faith and the current Order of Angels may only be risen from the last time the Apocalypse went down.
B) Dragons existed before humans ever came into the balance, So humanoid God's and angels weren't always in true form. Case in point, Dragons could be considered the Gods of the dinosaur era.
C) Naaglooshi are from an Angelic order whom 'retreated' after their job was done, they stayed and were corrupted by it... A previous order. Comparable to Odin saying the Jotun's retreated.

As Bob said: not every messenger is angelic in nature.

... What precisely was Lash really that she'd die. DIE mind you, and be reborn in a new form, still an angel?
She was made of Harry, his life, his brain, she could change because she was effectively mortal. She could chose specifically because she gained it from Harry(see woj on Free Will and if Lash got it). What died was not anything to do with an Angel except that it was once printed out by one. Effectively a piece of Harry died, she wasn't like Bonnie gestating to be born.
Lash was made of Lash. She was living in Harry. That's why she was her own person but had to take some of Harry's essence to actually gain free will. And since she used her free will to act according to her love for Harry, this was what gave birth to Bonnie.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 15, 2017, 03:46:24 PM
Quote
Lash was made of Lash. She was living in Harry. That's why she was her own person but had to take some of Harry's essence to actually gain free will.
That is almost ridiculous to me. This has been gone over more than once in more than one form... Lash was not Lash until she interacted with Harry so much so she stopped being Lasciel(long before she could admit it to herself). Lash herself was made up of an imprint of Lasciel, onto Harry. She wasn't her own entity.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 15, 2017, 04:10:41 PM
That is almost ridiculous to me. This has been gone over more than once in more than one form... Lash was not Lash until she interacted with Harry so much so she stopped being Lasciel(long before she could admit it to herself). Lash herself was made up of an imprint of Lasciel, onto Harry. She wasn't her own entity.
Ok, maybe I should clear something up:
Shadow of Lasciel was made of Shadow of Lasciel. Became Lash after Harry gave her a name and once she borrowed a piece of Harry's soul. And when I say that she was her own person I mean that she was a separate entity.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: jonas on December 15, 2017, 04:57:29 PM
Ok, maybe I should clear something up:
Shadow of Lasciel was made of Shadow of Lasciel. Became Lash after Harry gave her a name and once she borrowed a piece of Harry's soul. And when I say that she was her own person I mean that she was a separate entity.
Yea that makes more sense lol.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 15, 2017, 08:34:40 PM
Her appearance towards the end of WN seemed damaged and dingy. What was the cause?
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: forumghost on December 15, 2017, 09:04:46 PM
I thought that was because she was directing the Psychic Assault on Harry's brain into the parts where she was. So she staryed to fall apart as the places where she was became damaged.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 15, 2017, 09:38:35 PM
I was thinking even prior to the attack that she looked a little drained.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 16, 2017, 11:51:07 AM
I'm thinking the slow transformation to Lash was quickening and she was probably losing her access to Hellfire and all other sources of power else than Harry. I mean... it is just a guess.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 16, 2017, 11:53:27 AM
Possibly, also, pregnant. Which sometimes gave my wife a strained appearance. Which I never mentioned, of course.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Firestarter on December 16, 2017, 12:00:38 PM
If I ever end up in a lasting relationship, I'm already feeling sorry for the poor soul. I have a habit of speaking my mind with little to no censorship.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 16, 2017, 12:22:13 PM
I find that the older I get; the less concerned I am with self-censorship. My wife is the rare exception.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: LordDresden2 on December 19, 2017, 05:56:27 AM
Hmm... I don't see Susan coming back in any form except some flashbacks. It would cheapen Changes and her whole struggle.

Agreed, with passion.  We should not see Susan again, except in memories, or maybe if Harry is looking across time or something.  Or, just possibly, if Harry ends up paying another visit to wherever it is that Colin is at, but even then, probably not.  Though I won't be surprised if we do see Carmichael and Colin again, in some form.  But I hope not restored to Earthly life.





Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Kindler on December 20, 2017, 03:30:28 PM
Agreed, with passion.  We should not see Susan again, except in memories, or maybe if Harry is looking across time or something.  Or, just possibly, if Harry ends up paying another visit to wherever it is that Colin is at, but even then, probably not.  Though I won't be surprised if we do see Carmichael and Colin again, in some form.  But I hope not restored to Earthly life.

I third this, though it'd be super painful to Harry (and thus entertaining) if she was alive in Mirror, Mirror, and human, but hated Harry with a passion for who MirrorHarry had become.

I was thinking even prior to the attack that she looked a little drained.

My interpretation is a bit simple: she was inside Harry for a long, long time. I got the sense that Shadows were not built for long-term use; they're about as disposable as a Glade Plug-in (I'm partial to the apple scents myself). It's like a piece of machinery that was running nonstop for a decade; eventually, it just starts to break down.

That, and let's face it: she's as beat up emotionally as Harry was over the previous few years. That's gotta take a toll, Fallen or not.

Anyway, all of this is to say that I don't see that as significant in any way other than showing... depreciation of an asset, in cold terms. Still, it's a good observation.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: isoycrazy on December 25, 2017, 01:29:36 PM
Lash.  I would have loved her to have survived, as not only would she likely have helped stop Harry from committing suicide, he would have been helped by all the knowledge she could bring.

But that is why she had to die.  All the endgame secrets and tricks before the series is half over given there?  That would have messed up a lot of stories.

Though, there would be some downsides.  I like to think if Harry got another girlfriend while Lash was in him, she could have sided with the girlfriend in some arguments.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: forumghost on December 26, 2017, 12:40:41 AM
Don't be ridiculous. If Lash had lived, she'd be the other Girlfriend.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: isoycrazy on December 26, 2017, 01:57:06 AM
Don't be ridiculous. If Lash had lived, she'd be the other Girlfriend.

True.  It comes down to how possessive (no pun intended) she would be of Harry.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 26, 2017, 09:08:50 AM
Now that was a scene we never got. Harry having physical sex with one person and mental sex with Lash. I find it interesting that Harry never had a physical relationship with anyone while Lash was around. I am guessing, on a subconscious level; he already was in one.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: TheCuriousFan on December 26, 2017, 11:17:15 AM
Lash.  I would have loved her to have survived, as not only would she likely have helped stop Harry from committing suicide, he would have been helped by all the knowledge she could bring.

But that is why she had to die.  All the endgame secrets and tricks before the series is half over given there?  That would have messed up a lot of stories.

Though, there would be some downsides.  I like to think if Harry got another girlfriend while Lash was in him, she could have sided with the girlfriend in some arguments.
Pretty much, if she'd survived she'd have broken the series' intended progression over her imaginary knee.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: huangjimmy108 on December 26, 2017, 11:20:05 AM
Lash

Lash's death is indeed a shame, but I think it has to be done or the story itself will go unbalance.

In many ways, the shadow of a fallen is actually a far greater cheat compare to having the coin itself. The very reason why the shadow is not that much of a cheat is precisely because the shadow is bound to serve the purpose of the fallen creating it. Due to that restriction, shadow Lasciel cannot just grant Harry any knowledge Harry wants without a price. She has to bargain with Harry and in doing so increase the true fallen ability to influence Harry further. Lash however, has evolve to the point she can shrug off this particular restriction. She is free.

With the restriction gone, , Lash will be a cheat so frodulent Harry might as well become the MC of a Chinese Xuanhuan webnovel. Perfect memory, perfect recall, near perfect observation ability, virtual reality simulation capabilities, and the knowledge throve of a fallen angel. It is too much. This is Harry Dresden, not Leylin Farlier.

Sad though it was, Lash has to go.

I wish Jack Murphy has not died. The series is going more fantasy and less Urban these days. A truly strong and capable vanilla might strengthened the Urban elements.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: TheCuriousFan on December 26, 2017, 11:47:46 AM
Lash's death is indeed a shame, but I think it has to be done or the story itself will go unbalance.

In many ways, the shadow of a fallen is actually a far greater cheat compare to having the coin itself. The very reason why the shadow is not that much of a cheat is precisely because the shadow is bound to serve the purpose of the fallen creating it. Due to that restriction, shadow Lasciel cannot just grant Harry any knowledge Harry wants without a price. She has to bargain with Harry and in doing so increase the true fallen ability to influence Harry further. Lash however, has evolve to the point she can shrug off this particular restriction. She is free.

With the restriction gone, , Lash will be a cheat so frodulent Harry might as well become the MC of a Chinese Xuanhuan webnovel. Perfect memory, perfect recall, near perfect observation ability, virtual reality simulation capabilities, and the knowledge throve of a fallen angel. It is too much. This is Harry Dresden, not Leylin Farlier.

Sad though it was, Lash has to go.

I wish Jack Murphy has not died. The series is going more fantasy and less Urban these days. A truly strong and capable vanilla might strengthened the Urban elements.
Don't forget the presumably accelerated teaching.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 26, 2017, 12:33:53 PM
Lash's death is indeed a shame, but I think it has to be done or the story itself will go unbalance.

In many ways, the shadow of a fallen is actually a far greater cheat compare to having the coin itself. The very reason why the shadow is not that much of a cheat is precisely because the shadow is bound to serve the purpose of the fallen creating it. Due to that restriction, shadow Lasciel cannot just grant Harry any knowledge Harry wants without a price. She has to bargain with Harry and in doing so increase the true fallen ability to influence Harry further. Lash however, has evolve to the point she can shrug off this particular restriction. She is free.

With the restriction gone, , Lash will be a cheat so frodulent Harry might as well become the MC of a Chinese Xuanhuan webnovel. Perfect memory, perfect recall, near perfect observation ability, virtual reality simulation capabilities, and the knowledge throve of a fallen angel. It is too much. This is Harry Dresden, not Leylin Farlier.

Sad though it was, Lash has to go.

I wish Jack Murphy has not died. The series is going more fantasy and less Urban these days. A truly strong and capable vanilla might strengthened the Urban elements.
I am feeling that as well.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: groinkick on December 26, 2017, 06:41:34 PM
Lash's death is indeed a shame, but I think it has to be done or the story itself will go unbalance.

In many ways, the shadow of a fallen is actually a far greater cheat compare to having the coin itself. The very reason why the shadow is not that much of a cheat is precisely because the shadow is bound to serve the purpose of the fallen creating it. Due to that restriction, shadow Lasciel cannot just grant Harry any knowledge Harry wants without a price. She has to bargain with Harry and in doing so increase the true fallen ability to influence Harry further. Lash however, has evolve to the point she can shrug off this particular restriction. She is free.

With the restriction gone, , Lash will be a cheat so frodulent Harry might as well become the MC of a Chinese Xuanhuan webnovel. Perfect memory, perfect recall, near perfect observation ability, virtual reality simulation capabilities, and the knowledge throve of a fallen angel. It is too much. This is Harry Dresden, not Leylin Farlier.

Sad though it was, Lash has to go.

I wish Jack Murphy has not died. The series is going more fantasy and less Urban these days. A truly strong and capable vanilla might strengthened the Urban elements.

I would not be surprised if Lash is not dead.  I think there is the possibility that in the BAT we will see a showdown between Lasciel, and Lash.  Lash's sacrifice will have proven she was an entirely new being, and will have redeemed herself in the eyes of TWG.  She will be a new angel, and return in the BAT.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: Rasins on December 26, 2017, 07:54:56 PM
I would not be surprised if Lash is not dead.  I think there is the possibility that in the BAT we will see a showdown between Lasciel, and Lash.  Lash's sacrifice will have proven she was an entirely new being, and will have redeemed herself in the eyes of TWG.  She will be a new angel, and return in the BAT.

I like this.  I don't think it'll happen, but I do like it.
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: rudobrody on December 27, 2017, 02:22:09 AM
Warden Kowalski (one of the wardens with Luccio in Dead Beat).  My reason being I assume he was a distant cousin lol
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: LordDresden2 on January 07, 2018, 07:16:16 PM
True.  It comes down to how possessive (no pun intended) she would be of Harry.

Also, even if Lash could share with a physical girl, not all human women would be able to handle her presence inside her boyfriend or husband, if they knew about it.  Even if you were 100% sure of her good will, if you were a woman would you like knowing your husband or boyfriend had Lash as his inner best friend/other self/whatever?
Title: Re: The one character that you wish hadn't died
Post by: HistoryDave on January 13, 2018, 07:31:42 PM
Morgan, his death scene was awesome.  The Dresdenverse misses his Javert-like devotion .