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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: wardenferry419 on November 21, 2017, 11:01:44 AM

Title: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 21, 2017, 11:01:44 AM
I am worried that Eb doesn't even make the BAT. I see him doing a big sacrifice in last casebook and going out guns blazing. Which may be how Eb would want to go.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: exartiem on November 21, 2017, 01:31:28 PM
I see Eb going out a different way.  He is stripped of the Blackstaff title and executed by the White/Black Council.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Kindler on November 21, 2017, 01:55:03 PM
I see Eb going out a different way.  He is stripped of the Blackstaff title and executed by the White/Black Council.

I could see that; the Merlin (not Arthur Langtry) has to get rid of him somehow, and convinces the rest of the Senior Council (at this point replaced) that there is no Blackstaff, and he's therefore guilty of being a warlock, perverting the Laws in exactly the kind of way the Blackstaff is supposed to prevent. Eb locks eyes with Dresden, tells him to run, and drops his death curse, somehow circumventing whatever precautions they had taken, and pretty much nuking Edinburgh, taking down the corrupted White Council (at this point mostly Black) while he was at it.

I don't see Eb going down without massive collateral damage. I can picture someone like Harry making a deal and dying quietly, but Eb... strikes me as a True Scotsman, if that makes sense.

Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 21, 2017, 05:46:15 PM
Yep, that makes sense.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: exartiem on November 22, 2017, 01:16:37 PM
Actually, I see Eb going along with it.  Allowing himself to be executed in order to save Harry and the rest of the Grey Council.  Perhaps this would be the time we see a Death Blessing.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Maz on November 22, 2017, 01:59:57 PM
As much as we all dislike the Merlin, I don't see the Merlin being a black hat.  If he wanted to, he could have let the Council die time and time again.

LTW likewise isn't corrupted, I would suspect, though his linkage is mostly to the fact he could have let Harry die several times, both in books and now in comic.  And the Gatekeeper, the same.

Not saying the Council isn't infiltrated but I think those four (McCoy, Langtry, GK and LTW) can all be excluded.

This would leave Martha Liberty (who seems to garner the trust of LTW and Eb), Ancient Mai, and Cristos,  if it is indeed infiltrated...
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Arjan on November 22, 2017, 02:58:03 PM
As much as we all dislike the Merlin, I don't see the Merlin being a black hat.  If he wanted to, he could have let the Council die time and time again.

LTW likewise isn't corrupted, I would suspect, though his linkage is mostly to the fact he could have let Harry die several times, both in books and now in comic.  And the Gatekeeper, the same.

Not saying the Council isn't infiltrated but I think those four (McCoy, Langtry, GK and LTW) can all be excluded.

This would leave Martha Liberty (who seems to garner the trust of LTW and Eb), Ancient Mai, and Cristos,  if it is indeed infiltrated...
The obvious choice is Christos but maybe it is not Christos himself but someone in his direct entourage.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 22, 2017, 07:43:52 PM
I expect Eb to go out heroically sometime soon, death of mentor as a Hero's Journey thing, but I also expect the Merlin to go out heroically sometime soon as part of Harry learning that it's possible for people who sincerely believe in the greatest good of the greatest number to sacrifice themselves in the name of that good and he should stop being so damned cynical about them.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Arjan on November 22, 2017, 08:06:36 PM
I expect Eb to go out heroically sometime soon, death of mentor as a Hero's Journey thing, but I also expect the Merlin to go out heroically sometime soon as part of Harry learning that it's possible for people who sincerely believe in the greatest good of the greatest number to sacrifice themselves in the name of that good and he should stop being so damned cynical about them.
That is quite difficult if he is the one who decides you are the one to be sacrificed.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: groinkick on November 22, 2017, 08:58:36 PM
I could see Eb going down guns blazing, and if he does go out I hope that's how.   However I think what will push Harry over the edge will be that Eb doesn't go down that way.  He will go down with his hands bound, and head cut off.  Hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 22, 2017, 09:31:32 PM
That is quite difficult if he is the one who decides you are the one to be sacrificed.

Harry's refusal to trust the Merlin's judgement in that case does not make it entirely wrong.

If we had any evidence that any warlock, ever, in the DV, had been redeemed, it would be easier for me to have some sympathy for Harry here.  Harry not ultimately going really bad is a long way from proven (and I suspect that which way he ultimately goes won't be clear until the end of the BAT) and neither is Molly.

Harry's net effect on the DV since not being executed includes; getting into a fight with another warlock in ways that got the Doom on him lifted(SF); starting a war with the Red Court we have convincing evidence was not in the White Council's interest (GP) and scuppering two different attempts to end it (SK and DM) for which we know the casualties are at least forty thousand (nerve gas bomb in DB); joining the Wardens only under extreme protest and doing so in a way that wins him a lot of support from some quarters (DB); then using that political influence to prevent the execution of another warlock (PG); going to work for Mab, which is conflict of interest if not outright treason, and destroying the Red Court which may yet prove to have enabled significantly worse events than leaving it be (Changes).  And this is leaving out things like the whole Lasciel's coin story which the Merlin probably does not know about.

I do not think it is at all a sure thing that Harry continuing alive is a greater good for a greater number of people in the DV, but whether it is or not, the Merlin has an entirely solid basis for believing it not to be, and a responsibility to act accordingly, just as the Wardens had a responsibility to take down Kemmler.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: jonas on November 22, 2017, 10:29:40 PM
Hell man, if PT is the 'council' book it could be earlier than that... I have a theory on what his 'gun' might be,
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Kindler on December 01, 2017, 02:27:01 PM
I do not think it is at all a sure thing that Harry continuing alive is a greater good for a greater number of people in the DV, but whether it is or not, the Merlin has an entirely solid basis for believing it not to be, and a responsibility to act accordingly, just as the Wardens had a responsibility to take down Kemmler.

There's also standing in public support for a "traitor," and rather than providing the evidence to the Merlin before the trial, opts for showmanship that results in an Outsider being released in a crowded amphitheater and fifty (50!) wizards getting dusted.

As far as Harry staying alive for the Greater Good, I fully, absolutely, entirely expect an "It's a Wonderful Life" sequence from Uriel at some point, which shows Harry precisely what would have happened to the world if he had died or never been born. In fact, I think that's part of what Mirror, Mirror will be, though in a different way, showing the consequences of different choices.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 01, 2017, 03:08:58 PM
As far as Harry staying alive for the Greater Good, I fully, absolutely, entirely expect an "It's a Wonderful Life" sequence from Uriel at some point, which shows Harry precisely what would have happened to the world if he had died or never been born. In fact, I think that's part of what Mirror, Mirror will be, though in a different way, showing the consequences of different choices.

Now, if JB wanted to really give Harry an interesting challenge, Mirror Mirror would show us a world where Harry made different choices and the end result came out a lot better.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 01, 2017, 03:33:52 PM
If things turn out better in Mirror Mirror world for everybody but Harry that would kill Harry's drive to do his best in bad situations.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Kimmy T on December 01, 2017, 04:11:20 PM
I must respectfully disagree with the idea that Eb would die by the council's hands.  I just don't see him dying that way at all.  I think that Ebenezer McCoy is a prime candidate to die in Peace Talks.  I predict that Harry and Thomas will confront Eb about their mother during the peace conference and that a major side story in Peace Talks will be the three of them hashing out their relationship and Eb coming to accept Thomas as his grandson.  Just as they are about to resolve their issues, the Peace Conference inevitably collapses into violence and Eb sacrifices himself to save his grandsons during Peace Talks's big final battle.  That is how I think Ebinezer McCoy will go out.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Arjan on December 01, 2017, 04:18:31 PM
There's also standing in public support for a "traitor," and rather than providing the evidence to the Merlin before the trial, opts for showmanship that results in an Outsider being released in a crowded amphitheater and fifty (50!) wizards getting dusted.
He did not foresee that but neither did Ebenezar.
Quote
As far as Harry staying alive for the Greater Good, I fully, absolutely, entirely expect an "It's a Wonderful Life" sequence from Uriel at some point, which shows Harry precisely what would have happened to the world if he had died or never been born. In fact, I think that's part of what Mirror, Mirror will be, though in a different way, showing the consequences of different choices.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 01, 2017, 05:51:42 PM
If things turn out better in Mirror Mirror world for everybody but Harry that would kill Harry's drive to do his best in bad situations.

Or maybe make him do some much-needed re-examining of what doing his best actually means; trying his hardest in the wrong direction is less use than it could be.

Now wouldn't him getting past that be a whole different scale of interesting and challenging from yet another long-drawn-out brawl ?
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Arjan on December 01, 2017, 06:16:28 PM
We already know the Harry in the mirror universe made a bad choice compared to the Harry here. So the only thing we can learn from it is the Harry here did something right.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 01, 2017, 06:38:28 PM
Or maybe make him do some much-needed re-examining of what doing his best actually means; trying his hardest in the wrong direction is less use than it could be.

Now wouldn't him getting past that be a whole different scale of interesting and challenging from yet another long-drawn-out brawl ?
If Harry does any more self-examining, he'll turn into Hamlet.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 01, 2017, 07:49:14 PM
If Harry does any more self-examining, he'll turn into Hamlet.

If you think that's off-putting, you're talking to the wrong person.  Me, I just get frustrated that all that reflection is so slow to turn into actual serious change of approach.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: jonas on December 01, 2017, 08:07:13 PM
If you think that's off-putting, you're talking to the wrong person.  Me, I just get frustrated that all that reflection is so slow to turn into actual serious change of approach.
Ditto. Was so Happy he actually pre-empted the Baddie in SG, way to wizard it up..
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 01, 2017, 10:08:20 PM
Ditto. Was so Happy he actually pre-empted the Baddie in SG, way to wizard it up..
That part I was all for. Harry had ran across Nico twice prior to SK; so, him predicting some of Nico's behavior was well within his purview. Guessing Lash would have been a stretch due to his usual behavior with women.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Emeraldblade on December 05, 2017, 09:54:16 PM
Somehow with how the story is progressing I can see this series of events unfolding, because the mentor dying is cliche now and Jim loves abusing Harry.  Sorry if this isn't fully coherent, it is just my thought process in view...

1. Big event happens at "the wall" say book 18, with Molly and Harry at the spearhead. Refer to step 10 for the rest of this...
2. Meanwhile, Langley is accused with another good frame job of being with the outsiders or black council
3. Langley escapes, to fight the battle his way and leaves the council in chaos.
4. EB is then nominated and accepts the position of Merlin which means
5. EB has to give up the Blackstaff mantle
6. EB then gives the only Wizard he can trust that will accept the burden (LTW says absolutely no!) Harry
7. So now Harry has the Winter Mantle with Mother Winter's walking stick, which then really powers him up
8 But also has the urges that go along with Winter magnified, oh and the licence to do the wrong thing without punishment.

10. Harry is winter's general at the wall, and Molly is starting to turn more Wintery as well and being more of a frienemy to Harry, accomplishing Mab's goals at the expense of Harry.
11.  Harry works with the gatekeeper, and realizes even with his help they are doomed to lose this.
12. Harry has an ulterior motive while all of this is happening, trying to do his duty while getting in something under Mab's nose.
13. Molly "betrays" Harry, accomplishing Mab's goal and further complicating Harry's defense.
14. Harry fights back, after finding out Molly has been using subtle mind magic to make Harry more agreeable.
15. Then Harry with the blackstaff, turns the tide, but draws deeply on winter to do so, causing him to fracture even further towards the dark side.

So in the end of this series of events
EB is Merlin, and also leader of the grey council
Harry is the winter knight and the blackstaff
Molly is becoming more fully involved with winter, and loses Harry's trust
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 05, 2017, 10:13:28 PM
That's alot for one book.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 06, 2017, 03:39:32 PM
That's alot for one book.

Yeah, and it assumes that the Winter stuff we saw in CD is actually going to be much more important in the BAT than I am willing to; my money's on there being many more equally big pieces yet to be discovered between now and then.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 06, 2017, 11:14:57 PM
Like a Black Court revival and whatever plan Nico has going?
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 07, 2017, 06:55:38 PM
Like a Black Court revival and whatever plan Nico has going?

Definitely the latter; I have doubts about the former, but I think we are going to find out something important about Drakul which may well tie in to the Black Court incidentally.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Bacchus on December 07, 2017, 09:46:36 PM
i sorta hope something totally out of left field happens to Ebenezer, maybe he falls in love and lives out his life or something,
 maybe hes injured in a coma for a few years so he cant help too much when dresden needs face the worst baddies.

i mean just about all of us expect him to have some heroic death before the series end and Jim must know this so i halfway expect him to go a totally different route.
maybe cowl knows a of a way to take the staff and make decades of black magic smut hit him?   i don't have any concrete ideas but i do hope its something we don't all expect to happen
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: jonas on December 07, 2017, 10:08:00 PM
Like a Black Court revival and whatever plan Nico has going?
Just one I think... and revival is a very good word. Cause of the whole you are what you eat thing, the idea of Mavra eating a bunch of hereness, some honest to goodness life, might make here more than she currently is as undeath. What if mavra's whole gig is how to properly return herself to, well, not so much life as existence beyond stuck in a decaying corpse?
 plus, as far as thematics and mirroring goes
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 07, 2017, 11:21:35 PM
Not my original intention but I am curious enough to want to see it.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Snark Knight on December 08, 2017, 01:55:33 AM
He did not foresee that but neither did Ebenezar.

Yeah, once Ebenezar had seen the evidence on Peabody, responsibility for how to play it kind of is on the SC member rather than Harry.

Politically, they couldn't really have the Merlin just go "hey, trial on Morgan is cancelled" anyway. The spectators from LaFortier's bloc had to be convinced that Peabody was responsible because of how much suspicion was going around that Langtry would subvert the process to rescue his favourite attack dog. It wasn't just Harry that failed to anticipate the "bureaucromancer" posing a physical threat - Ebenezar and Carlos also missed that.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: forumghost on December 08, 2017, 02:03:48 AM
And given that Peabody unleashing a Mordite-enhanced Mistfiend and mindwhammying the Wardens wound up not being sufficient to exonerate Morgan in the end, the LaFortier block must be really strict about what constitutes sufficient evidence (when it's politically expedient to fo so).
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 08, 2017, 04:10:19 AM
And given that Peabody unleashing a Mordite-enhanced Mistfiend and mindwhammying the Wardens wound up not being sufficient to exonerate Morgan in the end, the LaFortier block must be really strict about what constitutes sufficient evidence (when it's politically expedient to fo so).

Some of us are still not entirely convinced Morgan was innocent, fwiw.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 08, 2017, 08:23:28 AM
I think Harry nailed Morgan pretty well. A jaded cop who wrapped himself in the rules of his duty.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Rasins on December 09, 2017, 04:18:02 AM
Some of us are still not entirely convinced Morgan was innocent, fwiw.

He was innocent of killing Lafortier.  Luccio did it.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Kindler on December 11, 2017, 07:40:16 PM
Yeah, once Ebenezar had seen the evidence on Peabody, responsibility for how to play it kind of is on the SC member rather than Harry.

Politically, they couldn't really have the Merlin just go "hey, trial on Morgan is cancelled" anyway. The spectators from LaFortier's bloc had to be convinced that Peabody was responsible because of how much suspicion was going around that Langtry would subvert the process to rescue his favourite attack dog. It wasn't just Harry that failed to anticipate the "bureaucromancer" posing a physical threat - Ebenezar and Carlos also missed that.

Right, and Ebenezer should have walked up to the Merlin, said "Hey, we need to incapacitate Peabody with thorn manacles before the trial—trust me, man, this is going to be awesome." I mean, the guy might seem like a little nobody—the Butters of the White Council (pre-Ghost Story, before he leveled up)—but he's still a wizard of the White Council. There's some level of competence and power required. Why wouldn't they have anticipated him running? It was in their best interest to restrain him, but they failed to do so completely. And, you know, fifty wizards died while Harry played Poirot.

Actually, Harry's summation speech let Peabody prepare; he realized where this was going, and pulled out another inkwell during Harry's testimony, which was the one with the mistfiend in it. Or... some kind of mist that summoned a fiend somehow. Did he bottle a mistfiend, actually? Because that's pretty cool. Anyway, Harry should've made sure the Merlin was ready; there was absolutely no reason not to tell the whole Senior Council, so they could have all been prepared adequately. Privately, the blame lies mostly on Ebenezer's shoulders—he was supposed to be ready to shut him down, and wasn't—but publicly, it was Harry's grandstanding that got them all killed. Which they then used to force their guy onto the Senior Council.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Rasins on December 12, 2017, 12:31:42 AM
I agree that it never set well with me that they weren't prepared for Peabody to run, but ...

We know that Eb is the junior member of the Senior council, and he's at odds with the Merlin.  I can totally see Langtry ignoring Eb's warnings (if there were any) not believing them.  After all, Peabody had been on the staff for a LONG time.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on December 12, 2017, 09:02:46 AM
Basically, they under-estimated what a perceived paper-pusher would do even though he was also a wizard. I was a military clerk, so I know the mentality, even if I was a soldier as well.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Kindler on December 12, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
I agree that it never set well with me that they weren't prepared for Peabody to run, but ...

We know that Eb is the junior member of the Senior council, and he's at odds with the Merlin.  I can totally see Langtry ignoring Eb's warnings (if there were any) not believing them.  After all, Peabody had been on the staff for a LONG time.

My reading of the events showed that the Merlin didn't know about Peabody at all; Harry describes Langtry as reacting with sudden hope when Harry stands up to give evidence. Something like, "The Merlin looked like he realized the game wasn't over yet." To me, that shows that Eb didn't even try to tell him, which is weird.

It's not quite Prometheus levels of "Why are you doing any of the things you're doing, this is dumb, run perpendicular to the falling thing, not parallel," but it's something I haven't found a reasonable explanation for beyond lack of foresight (rare for Ebenezer) or complicity (which I can't believe of Ebenezer, though many find him shady and I understand why).

Basically, they under-estimated what a perceived paper-pusher would do even though he was also a wizard. I was a military clerk, so I know the mentality, even if I was a soldier as well.

But that goes against everything we've seen from the White Council. They really, really, really like to plan ahead. It's just not something I can reconcile with the characters involved.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Arjan on December 12, 2017, 04:51:05 PM
Ebenezar and the merlin had a long antagonistic relationship probably made worse by Peabody. Ebenezar wanted to judge everyone's reaction.

I don't think anyone would have expected such a dangerous outsider from him. With the complete senior council there he should not have been a problem.

Say they had confronted him in a hallway and asked him to surrender. He probably wlould have escaped after his mistfiend had killed the wardens. Only a surprise attack with immediate paralysation or something like that would have worked.

Ebenezar would have to do a lot of talking to something he thought was not needed anyway.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Kindler on December 12, 2017, 05:16:18 PM
Ebenezar and the merlin had a long antagonistic relationship probably made worse by Peabody. Ebenezar wanted to judge everyone's reaction.

That I might be able to buy. He and Harry did briefly discuss the Merlin as Black Council.

The rest of it is too situationally ambiguous. He wouldn't have needed to do much fast talking, just go up to the Merlin, say what's going on, then sucker punch Peabody. The guy thought he was about to win a significant victory; his guard was at its lowest, and it wouldn't have been difficult to arrange.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Rasins on December 13, 2017, 06:41:18 PM
I'm trying to remember back to my last reading.

Was there time between Harry revealing to Eb, and the trial, for Eb to sucker punch Peabody?
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Arjan on December 13, 2017, 06:47:53 PM
I'm trying to remember back to my last reading.

Was there time between Harry revealing to Eb, and the trial, for Eb to sucker punch Peabody?
Enough to search Peabodies quarters for evidence.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Rasins on December 13, 2017, 07:17:44 PM
Enough to search Peabodies quarters for evidence.

Ah, so Yeah.  Or they could have done it as soon as he sat down at the Trial.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on December 13, 2017, 07:41:04 PM
Enough to search Peabodies quarters for evidence.

Have we some reason to think he'd be sloppy enough to not cover his tracks?
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Arjan on December 13, 2017, 07:56:28 PM
Have we some reason to think he'd be sloppy enough to not cover his tracks?

Sure, As Ebenezar said in the trial:

Quote
“Working on the evidence Dresden found,” Ebenezar said, “Warden Ramirez and I searched Peabody’s chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago. A test of the inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects. It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright.”

Looking for evidence must have been Ebenezars first priority.

I do not think it was sloppyness. He needed the stuff and probably a lot of it to do that huge scale mental manipulation. He had to keep it close and hidden in plain view.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Sterling Rat on January 03, 2018, 04:20:00 PM
I don't think Eb will survive the BAT... I also believe that, at some point, Harry will be sent to get Mother Winter's cane back.

Eb, as Blackstaff, is allowed to use mind magic... We will find out that Eb rewired Harry's brain in Hog's Hollow after the incident with Justin. He has been asked a couple times why he does what he does and he doesn't really give a good answer - I think they were trying to clue him in that his brain was altered. I also think that Eb influenced Susan's thinking to keep Maggie away from Harry, since Eb was with them during Dead Beat and I doubt that was a coincidence.

I think Eb will succumb to the corruption of Dark Magic and the Outsiders, causing Mother Winter to send Harry after him.

Disclaimer: I have been wrong each and every time I have predicted anything. If I said Monday would be followed by Tuesday, I would expect the flow of time to suddenly change just to make me wrong. Jim Butcher has come up with better stuff than me every time I think I know what's going on, so I'm sure that trend will continue and I look forward to finding out how wrong I am.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Rasins on January 03, 2018, 07:08:51 PM
I don't think Eb will survive the BAT... I also believe that, at some point, Harry will be sent to get Mother Winter's cane back.

Eb, as Blackstaff, is allowed to use mind magic... We will find out that Eb rewired Harry's brain in Hog's Hollow after the incident with Justin. He has been asked a couple times why he does what he does and he doesn't really give a good answer - I think they were trying to clue him in that his brain was altered. I also think that Eb influenced Susan's thinking to keep Maggie away from Harry, since Eb was with them during Dead Beat and I doubt that was a coincidence.

I think Eb will succumb to the corruption of Dark Magic and the Outsiders, causing Mother Winter to send Harry after him.

Disclaimer: I have been wrong each and every time I have predicted anything. If I said Monday would be followed by Tuesday, I would expect the flow of time to suddenly change just to make me wrong. Jim Butcher has come up with better stuff than me every time I think I know what's going on, so I'm sure that trend will continue and I look forward to finding out how wrong I am.

I don't know that Eb ever met, or knew, Susan.  How would he even know about Maggie Jr if he didn't know about Susan?
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Sterling Rat on January 03, 2018, 08:00:43 PM
Sure, but that would mean that Ebenezer assisting the Fellowship during Dead Beat was just a coincidence. Or a Red Herring.

It is completely reasonable that after Eb lost track of Harry as a child, he could have taken magical steps to monitor any future offspring.

It probably won't happen that way because Jim is a professional writer with good ideas and I am a data specialist who has only ever had three original ideas... and two of those sucked. But if I keep guessing, I will be right someday.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Viktor on January 04, 2018, 05:53:41 AM
I don't think Eb will survive the BAT... I also believe that, at some point, Harry will be sent to get Mother Winter's cane back.


I agree with the first. I actually think/hope that he goes out fighting Cowl. This shows how strong Cowl really is, and drives home just how strong he has become when Dresden kills him... while wielding the Black Staff. I do hope Mother Winter is going to comment on the cane after he gets it.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 04, 2018, 10:12:17 AM
Curious question. What would happen if the Black Staff is broken or can it be broken?
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Quantus on January 04, 2018, 02:58:10 PM
Curious question. What would happen if the Black Staff is broken or can it be broken?
Im going to go with: No, It cannot Be Broken.  Or Rather, to do so would require and.or result in the Breaking of Winter's Power as a whole; I think one is too primal a symbol of the other.

on the other hand, per WOJ "just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe.  But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers."  So maybe it's jut a tap into that Power, and loosing it would just close off that access.  It might have all kinds of implications to the overall function and Balance of things, but perhaps not any direct (ie explosive) fallout. 
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Rasins on January 04, 2018, 07:01:15 PM
What would happen if Harry presented Mother Winter with a new walking stick?  As her vassal, he can give her stuff without her incurring obligation to him.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: wardenferry419 on January 05, 2018, 12:14:43 AM
Im going to go with: No, It cannot Be Broken.  Or Rather, to do so would require and.or result in the Breaking of Winter's Power as a whole; I think one is too primal a symbol of the other.

on the other hand, per WOJ "just really, really, really powerful and tapped into like some serious elemental powers in the universe.  But basically all it really is is insulation from using those powers."  So maybe it's jut a tap into that Power, and loosing it would just close off that access.  It might have all kinds of implications to the overall function and Balance of things, but perhaps not any direct (ie explosive) fallout.
So, the Black Staff is an under-used object of power?
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: jonas on January 05, 2018, 02:20:55 AM
So, the Black Staff is an under-used object of power?
Keep in mind this is the same description used for the hexxenbelts, Mantles, ect. Insulation. I think it's all insulation, and all from the same things, spiritual entities.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Rasins on January 05, 2018, 04:13:51 PM
So, the Black Staff is an under-used object of power?

I totally would.  I'd be surprised of Eb knows all the tricks it can do FOR Mother Winter.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Kindler on January 08, 2018, 04:14:30 PM
Could the Blackstaff itself be the conduit to black magic? Meaning, if it is destroyed, could all access to it be closed permanently? Assuming it's tied to the Outside, the Blackstaff may have existed as long as the Gates—as Gungnir, for instance—passed down from guardian to guardian. If black magic comes from Outside, as many have hypothesized on this forum, then it may be the reason wizards and others can tap into it at all. Like a Yin/Yang; you have to have a little Black inside the White, if you catch my meaning.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: jonas on January 08, 2018, 05:43:48 PM
Could the Blackstaff itself be the conduit to black magic? Meaning, if it is destroyed, could all access to it be closed permanently? Assuming it's tied to the Outside, the Blackstaff may have existed as long as the Gates—as Gungnir, for instance—passed down from guardian to guardian. If black magic comes from Outside, as many have hypothesized on this forum, then it may be the reason wizards and others can tap into it at all. Like a Yin/Yang; you have to have a little Black inside the White, if you catch my meaning.
-.- nobodies allowed to say that but me lol. yin yang represents pretty much all of creation in the DF, right down to the original divides between existence and non existence, which then became layered excessively. (ying and yang into greater and lesser, 4 majors into the 8 elemental manifestations down into the 5 elements themselves.) DR is the little black dot that is at the center of our world... Angels perhaps are the White dot in the black... Think about their existence on Archangel level, multiple galaxy destruction, only dips toe into our sandbox, pancake existence. both are beyond space and time, ergo outside, even if not outside existence in the critical sense everyone seems to get stuck on(variations, VARIATIONS!), mordite is an example in extreme of the idea of NOTHING being too simply translated.
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Quantus on January 08, 2018, 08:37:11 PM
So, the Black Staff is an under-used object of power?
Depends on your perspective. 

On the one hand, it does not actually let you do anything at all that you could not already do (other than summon a really cool stick made of black smoke, I guess); there is no power boost or additional special abilities granted. 

On the Other Hand, it lets you do ALL THE BLACK MAGIC without having to worry about turning your psyche into swiss cheese from what amount to the spiritual equivalent of Brain Damage.  If you're already down that swiss cheese road it's probably not going to give you much you didnt already have. Im not sure it would have any appeal to your Kemmlers or Cowls, for example.   
Title: Re: EB McCoy after the BAT
Post by: Rasins on January 09, 2018, 07:02:21 PM
Depends on your perspective. 

On the one hand, it does not actually let you do anything at all that you could not already do (other than summon a really cool stick made of black smoke, I guess); there is no power boost or additional special abilities granted. 

On the Other Hand, it lets you do ALL THE BLACK MAGIC without having to worry about turning your psyche into swiss cheese from what amount to the spiritual equivalent of Brain Damage.  If you're already down that swiss cheese road it's probably not going to give you much you didnt already have. Im not sure it would have any appeal to your Kemmlers or Cowls, for example.   

I wonder if, say, Kemmler picked up the Blackstaff, would it automagically absorb all the blackmagic taint he's accumulated over the years, or only protect him from more taint when he used the Blackstaff.

Now, assuming it absorbs it all, I do not think it would heal any damage done through the use of Black Magic.  What I mean is that if black magic twists your mind, your mind will remain twisted after the influence is gone, you just wouldn't become any more twisted.