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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: wardenferry419 on November 07, 2017, 11:38:49 PM
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Who are members of Grey Council?
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Well, we know ...
Harry
Ebenezar
Vadderung
Everyone else is speculation.
I think maybe Arthur Langrty
Martha Liberty
Others I'd have to give some serious thought about.
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I think the Grey Council would go counter to what Arthur is pushing in the White Council, so I don't think he's in it.
Martha, maybe
LTW, maybe
I think if the EK had an alter ego like Kringle does, he could be in it.
Eldest Gruff, maybe
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I believe that, based on their "on screen" interactions, Arthur would not put himself under Ebenezar's lead. So I don't really believe that he's a member, but he could be.
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Montjoy was one of the names that came up for the senior council position in SK. According to Martha Liberty he was busy in "a research trip in the Yucatan", which is where Chichen Itza is.
Fits pretty well IMO.
It's hard to come up with 6 members aside from Harry, Odin and Eb that could be in it, but that's what the WoJ tells us so here's my 6:
Rashid
Arthur Langtry
Montjoy
Eldest Gruff
Erlking
Ivy
LTW was sick during the raid on CI
Martha Liberty her magic leans more towards information gathering IIRC
Ivy is probably the hardest one to argue for since she's not supposed to get involved, and is trying to preserve herself, but if the stakes are high enough (outsider / extinction level threat) I think a case could be made for her to fight.
As for the merlin, I think the stance that "there is no black council" is just a public stance, to keep the members of the council from switching sides out of fear, but that he knows about the black council and is a member of the Grey Council. Hell, it might have even been his idea.
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At the time of the Grey Council formation Eb said that he would vouch for LtW so I would guess he is on it. I think Rashid definitely knows about the Grey Council, but I do not think he is an active participant due to his duties at the Gate. I would like to see Eldest Gruff on there, but I do not know if his duties/obligations to Summer would prevent him from acting.
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See, I REALLY want to know what happened to Montjoy. I'd LOVE for him (?) to be a member.
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Who are members of Grey Council?
I am going to put up a WAG for a member of the Grey Council: Mavra.
Ok, hear me out:
1) She was going against (maybe on purpose, maybe not) Cowl and the Black Council to get the Word of Kemler and got our favorite PI on the case
2) During her escape in Blood Rites, Ebeneezer is conveniently off screen when she escapes.
3) I think she would want the status quo to be held, and prey still available, as opposed to the Apocalypse.
4) She's disappeared since Dead Beat which makes me think she's working behind the scenes (AKA Grey Council)
Feel free to point and laugh at my stupidity. ;D
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We don't laugh at people here; we laugh with people.
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with Ivy i still feel the self protection drive is more important than helping stop some wizard war, as in she literally wont be able to help.
at most she could feed them info sometimes.
as for mavra, she killed a bunch of people for little reason. isn't killing how black vamps get stronger? so id say no for her, maybe at most an informal understanding.
as far as grey council. LTW is in, gatekeepers in but probably too busy to help, id say Luccio is in and she would vouch for that British mage she trusts. shes also worked with the wardens for over a century and would know which to offer membership too.
id say no to any other senior council members. they don't have the level of trust needed
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I can agree that few of the Senior Council are Grey Council. The SC is part of the problem and you don't make of the problem part of your solution. Not very effective for change.
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I can agree that few of the Senior Council are Grey Council. The SC is part of the problem and you don't make of the problem part of your solution. Not very effective for change.
Agreed... Also if anyone thinks Mavra is part of the Grey Council needs to go back and read Grave Peril very carefully.
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Klaus the Toymaker, who devastated the Reds at Chicken Pizza with a Slinky™, a Jack-in-the-Box, and a cork gun.
(I really, really, really like the concept of Klaus, and I just hope to God he makes it into Peace Talks and we get to see him devastate a squad of Fomor with a rubber chicken). I actually do think he might be on the Grey Council, for the record; he was the name above Ebenezer's, if memory serves, but bowed out in deference to him.
Chandler is a possibility, I think.
I think Listens-to-Wind is on it, but obviously wasn't at the fight.
And... what about Lea? Someone had to make arrangements for Odin's arrival...
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I am going to put up a WAG for a member of the Grey Council: Mavra.
Ok, hear me out:
1) She was going against (maybe on purpose, maybe not) Cowl and the Black Council to get the Word of Kemler and got our favorite PI on the case
2) During her escape in Blood Rites, Ebeneezer is conveniently off screen when she escapes.
3) I think she would want the status quo to be held, and prey still available, as opposed to the Apocalypse.
4) She's disappeared since Dead Beat which makes me think she's working behind the scenes (AKA Grey Council)
Feel free to point and laugh at my stupidity. ;D
2) Yeah, it is suspicious. Not only did she get away, she was able to use a veil and an illusion when Eb's job there was to lock down her magic.
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Klaus the Toymaker, who devastated the Reds at Chicken Pizza with a Slinky™, a Jack-in-the-Box, and a cork gun.
(I really, really, really like the concept of Klaus, and I just hope to God he makes it into Peace Talks and we get to see him devastate a squad of Fomor with a rubber chicken). I actually do think he might be on the Grey Council, for the record; he was the name above Ebenezer's, if memory serves, but bowed out in deference to him.
Chandler is a possibility, I think.
I think Listens-to-Wind is on it, but obviously wasn't at the fight.
And... what about Lea? Someone had to make arrangements for Odin's arrival...
IMO Klaus the Toymaker is just another alias for Santa, but if not then he's definitely a top contender for one of those 6 spots.
As for Lea, there were 12 grey-cloaked members that show up together during CI, not counting anyone that was already there. A separate discussion could be had on whether or not shes in the CG, but she can't be one of the 12.
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The main reason I'd say Mavra was NOT a member is that she was in support of the Rampire court in Grave Peril.
Another reason is Ebenzar's hatred of Vampires in general. I don't think he'd welcome her on the team.
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The main reason I'd say Mavra was NOT a member is that she was in support of the Rampire court in Grave Peril.
Another reason is Ebenzar's hatred of Vampires in general. I don't think he'd welcome her on the team.
Technically Thomas was present in support of the Rampire court in Grave Peril as well. I agree completely about Eb's hatred of vampires probably ruling her out of the Grey Council.
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But Thomas hadn't been working with Bianca, the one who was getting a promotion, on magic for weeks.
He was a reluctant participant. Kind of like Harry.
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I've always wondered why Thomas decided to bring Justine into the "lion's den" given his protectiveness of her later on in the series. She was needed in order to move the events of the book along and get Thomas and Harry together, but it seems like an uncharacteristic decision of Thomas.
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She was Thomas' +1 and protected under the Accords. As long as they both behaved, there is no reason NOT to bring her. And it's a calculated insult to Bianca.
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I can see Klaus and Chandler as Grey Council. I know Carlos got himself arrested. Maybe, Wild Bill, but he is young.
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She was Thomas' +1 and protected under the Accords. As long as they both behaved, there is no reason NOT to bring her. And it's a calculated insult to Bianca.
At the party Thomas tells Harry that Bianca holds a grudge against him because in her view he "poached" Justine away from her. That is enough to make him wary of her. In addition, Justine later asks for Harry's help getting her and Thomas out of the party which implies that they strongly suspected a trap taking place. I still cannot understand why Thomas would bring Justine into a situation like this.
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Because when you want someone. You want them around you all the time.
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also, Talby, because Thomas IS White court. He can't help scheming and maneuvering. Having Justine there shows he won ... so far.
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also, Talby, because Thomas IS White court. He can't help scheming and maneuvering. Having Justine there shows he won ... so far.
That is an excellent point I had not considered. Subtly showing off your victory while remaining safe under the accords is very White Court.
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I am going to put up a WAG for a member of the Grey Council: Mavra.
Ok, hear me out:
1) She was going against (maybe on purpose, maybe not) Cowl and the Black Council to get the Word of Kemler and got our favorite PI on the case
2) During her escape in Blood Rites, Ebeneezer is conveniently off screen when she escapes.
3) I think she would want the status quo to be held, and prey still available, as opposed to the Apocalypse.
4) She's disappeared since Dead Beat which makes me think she's working behind the scenes (AKA Grey Council)
Feel free to point and laugh at my stupidity. ;D
Mavra trained Bianca in magic to help her get revenge on Harry and she was also responsible for one of the most successful attempts on Harry's life - the flame thrower attack that was designed to get around his shields. If she is Grey Council, then the Grey Council is black. Also, Eb dropped a meteor on Ortega for trying to kill Harry, I don't think he would deliberately let Mavra walk away unscathed for the same offense.
I still cannot understand why Thomas would bring Justine into a situation like this.
Thomas had to go for political reasons, and Justine was at least as safe with him then being stashed somewhere alone where Bianca could send an agent after her while she is unprotected. Remember, Lord Raith was still in charge at the time, so the Raith property was not safe for her.
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That is an excellent point I had not considered. Subtly showing off your victory while remaining safe under the accords is very White Court.
I have my moments. :D
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I like to think the people who know that Maggie Sr was Eb’s daughter are on the Gray Council since he clearly trusts these people with some of this most intimate secrets. Eb seems to be a founding member of the GC, so it would make sense that he fills it up with the Wizards he trusts the most.
So far it’s just Odin & Rashid, but given the posse he brings to meet Harry before the White Council meeting in SK, Martha Liberty & LTW might also be part.
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I like to think the people who know that Maggie Sr was Eb’s daughter are on the Gray Council since he clearly trusts these people with some of this most intimate secrets. Eb seems to be a founding member of the GC, so it would make sense that he fills it up with the Wizards he trusts the most.
So far it’s just Odin & Rashid, but given the posse he brings to meet Harry before the White Council meeting in SK, Martha Liberty & LTW might also be part.
You know, that's an excellent point. I'd expect Martha Liberty and LTW to be members too, even if they couldn't be there. I know LTW was sick, but I don't remember a mention of Martha.
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Many supporters of Harry, I think, were incarcarated by Cristos.
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I think the Grey Council would go counter to what Arthur is pushing in the White Council, so I don't think he's in it.
The guy always has three plans, a main plan, a back-up and an ace in the hole.
Everything he is pushing in the White Council being the main plan and the Grey Council being his backup, in general, works for me.
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We don't laugh at people here; we laugh with people.
We laugh near people.
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I believe that, based on their "on screen" interactions, Arthur would not put himself under Ebenezar's lead.
I'll find that convincing when they have similar interactions without knowing Harry is witnessing them. Everything we see between them works equally well as competent plausible deniability for me.
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Because when you want someone. You want them around you all the time.
..gosh, some people are way less introverted than me.
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Many supporters of Harry, I think, were incarcarated by Cristos.
I feel like I am completing a bingo card of my favourite things we have no real evidence for, today.
I strongly suspect Peace Talks will resolve my conviction that the apparent incapacitation of the White Council through disease and internal conflict during Changes is all made up to manipulate Harry to take more desperate measures in seeking support, but I reserve the right to believe in it until and unless it is textually confirmed wrong.
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..gosh, some people are way less introverted than me.
Actually, I am introverted but I am also a romantic. One person in my life is all I need.
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I feel like I am completing a bingo card of my favourite things we have no real evidence for, today.
I strongly suspect Peace Talks will resolve my conviction that the apparent incapacitation of the White Council through disease and internal conflict during Changes is all made up to manipulate Harry to take more desperate measures in seeking support, but I reserve the right to believe in it until and unless it is textually confirmed wrong.
Harry hasn't had much opportunity to hang with his peeps on the WC and get the skinny on recent events.
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Many supporters of Harry, I think, were incarcarated by Cristos.
I agree, but not by specific design; I think that the people who were likely to have supported Harry would have also been adversarial to Cristos's agenda, and were taken out of play, like Carlos and Listens-to-Wind.
Harry hasn't had much opportunity to hang with his peeps on the WC and get the skinny on recent events.
Yeah, it's a little strange to me that Harry apparently hasn't spoken to Ebenezer, considering their post-revelation relationship upgrade to actual family. Harry's always been a bit zealous about having family in the first place (understandably, of course, considering his history), so I found it odd that he didn't have Murphy or Thomas reach out to Ebenezer and have him visit Demonreach over the last year. At least, none that was mentioned. On a meta level, it makes perfect sense, because there wasn't time for it in Cold Days, and Skin Game was already stuffed to the gills with fanservice about Michael and Butters, and Eb had already taken a prominent enough role in Turn Coat and Changes. I also further presume that Jim wanted to show their first post-assassination meeting rather than have it happen off-page, so I get it, but it seems out of place in the context of the story, what with a year passing since his death was officially undone by Rashid.
But he did have a new staff, and Eb promised to give him a new "blank," so maybe it just wasn't mentioned? I don't know.
Anyway, Peace Talks is going to have a lot more Council stuff, which I'm happy about.
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But he did have a new staff, and Eb promised to give him a new "blank," so maybe it just wasn't mentioned? I don't know.
Anyway, Peace Talks is going to have a lot more Council stuff, which I'm happy about.
If I remember correctly the new staff was stated as being carved from a tree on Demonreach (oak maybe). I don't think Eb has visited him yet and I agree that it should be shown on page. I agree with wanting to see more Council stuff in Peace Talks. Should be an opportunity to set some things up for the last section of the series.
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Actually, I am introverted but I am also a romantic. One person in my life is all I need.
I have several wonderful people I love, I just work much better with most of them seeing them for brief intense bursts between large spans of more alone time.
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Harry hasn't had much opportunity to hang with his peeps on the WC and get the skinny on recent events.
I would like to have more information on how much him hiding away on Demonreach was enforced on him and how much it was his choice.
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I would like to have more information on how much him hiding away on Demonreach was enforced on him and how much it was his choice.
Mab told Harry that she actively worked (changing/delaying messages and manipulating weather) at isolating him on Demonreach in order to delay the removal of the parasite and coerce him to fulfill a request.
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Not that he fought that hard at leaving the island.
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Not that he fought that hard at leaving the island.
He very hard tried to contact Molly.
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That he did. Was she really the old person he trusted to handle this.
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That he did. Was she really the old person he trusted to handle this.
More likely the only person he trusted that had the specific skill set to handle it. Out of the wizards we know Harry really only trusts Eb, Molly, Carlos, Luccio, and maybe LtW and Rashid. Eb and Carlos are combat wizards primarily. Luccio had a power downgrade and contacting LtW/Rashid might be impossible in Harry's current situation.
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Mavra trained Bianca in magic to help her get revenge on Harry and she was also responsible for one of the most successful attempts on Harry's life - the flame thrower attack that was designed to get around his shields. If she is Grey Council, then the Grey Council is black. Also, Eb dropped a meteor on Ortega for trying to kill Harry, I don't think he would deliberately let Mavra walk away unscathed for the same offense.
I recently saw someone theorize that Mavra's goons didn't use weapons in the altercation involving the Vampire staking by turkey because the purpose of the altercation wasn't to kill him but to manipulate him into teaming up with Lara. When I wrote my list of Harry Power Ups (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26613.0.html) long ago, I couldn't help but notice that Mavra's "attempt on Harry's life" didn't just result in the blackmail material that drove the plot of Dead Beat, but is directly responsible for the motivation for some of Harry's most impressive magical development in the series summed up by these bullet points from that post:
- BR: Burn trauma stunts Harry's ability to use Fire Magic PD
- DB: Starts moving things using directly applied Force/Will rather than Wind RP/Sk
- WK: Crafts his new Shield Bracelet which blocks more than force/physical, particularly fire Sk
I can't help but wonder if she was working with Lea in that altercation in order to force him to branch out and pursue magical skill beyond his fire standby.
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I recently saw someone theorize that Mavra's goons didn't use weapons in the altercation involving the Vampire staking by turkey because the purpose of the altercation wasn't to kill him but to manipulate him into teaming up with Lara. When I wrote my list of Harry Power Ups (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26613.0.html) long ago, I couldn't help but notice that Mavra's "attempt on Harry's life" didn't just result in the blackmail material that drove the plot of Dead Beat, but is directly responsible for the motivation for some of Harry's most impressive magical development in the series summed up by these bullet points from that post:
- BR: Burn trauma stunts Harry's ability to use Fire Magic PD
- DB: Starts moving things using directly applied Force/Will rather than Wind RP/Sk
- WK: Crafts his new Shield Bracelet which blocks more than force/physical, particularly fire Sk
I can't help but wonder if she was working with Lea in that altercation in order to force him to branch out and pursue magical skill beyond his fire standby.
Just read that for the first time. Good post :)
Also, while the effects are there, I think that might be giving Mavra too much credit. She's wily and tough, but I don't think anyone could have adequately predicted events to that degree. I do think she wanted blackmail materials, but I don't think she predicted Kincaid's involvement (or the Bolshevik Muppet Maneuver). I doubt she was coordinating efforts with Lea for the purposes of training Harry.
In my opinion, Mavra pulled a Xanatos Gambit, setting things up so that either A.) Harry was killed, or B.) She'd have evidence with which to pressure Harry to do something for her—whether it was specifically to get her hands on the Word or not remains to be seen. No matter what, she'd come out ahead, and there was virtually no risk to her at all.
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I recently saw someone theorize that Mavra's goons didn't use weapons in the altercation involving the Vampire staking by turkey because the purpose of the altercation wasn't to kill him but to manipulate him into teaming up with Lara. When I wrote my list of Harry Power Ups (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,26613.0.html) long ago, I couldn't help but notice that Mavra's "attempt on Harry's life" didn't just result in the blackmail material that drove the plot of Dead Beat, but is directly responsible for the motivation for some of Harry's most impressive magical development in the series summed up by these bullet points from that post:
- BR: Burn trauma stunts Harry's ability to use Fire Magic PD
- DB: Starts moving things using directly applied Force/Will rather than Wind RP/Sk
- WK: Crafts his new Shield Bracelet which blocks more than force/physical, particularly fire Sk
I can't help but wonder if she was working with Lea in that altercation in order to force him to branch out and pursue magical skill beyond his fire standby.
Great summary of his power-ups along the way. I didn't post on it because I didn't want to resurrect a topic from 2011, but I noticed it hasn't been updated to reflect the last two books. Will you revisit this list in the future?