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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: RobReece on October 27, 2017, 03:03:30 PM

Title: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: RobReece on October 27, 2017, 03:03:30 PM
I'm sure it's been discussed before, but I couldn't find it.  Why is Nic/Anduriel so terrified of Mouse?  In SmF, Anduriel places himself between Mouse and Nic, ostensibly to protect Nic.  Not to mention that Nic, with all his knowledge and experience, didn't even recognize what Mouse is... Then at the end of SG, Anduriel freaks out when Mouse approaches, granted if Mouse approached me growling and glowing I would too, but I'm not a freaking fallen angel either...

opinions?
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: dspringer1 on October 27, 2017, 07:54:52 PM
My guess is that Mouse can attack Anduriel directly.  Remember, mouse has those glowing fangs that can cause damage to vampires that is hard to heal.  It is not a big stretch to speculate that Anduriel (who manefests as Nik's shadow) can be attacked directly by those fangs and hurt. 

Not sure Mouse can kill Anduriel.  But I cannot imagine the fallen angel likes to feel pain.   
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Ulfgeir on October 27, 2017, 08:23:35 PM
I think Mouse definitively can hurt Anduriel, and I think Anduriel realizes that Mouse cheats, and is much more powerful than he should be. Or that when he is protecting someone, then there will be no limits on how much power Mouse can draw upon if it is righteous. Sort of like an inverse of the Swords.

/Ulfgeir
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: jonas on October 27, 2017, 09:14:33 PM
I think Mouse is a genuine danger to Anduriels continued existence. They are on the same wavelength, I think mouse could easily maim or expel him easily, if not outright kill.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 11:16:17 PM
I am confused. Mouse wasn't in Summer Knight (SK). I don't recall Mouse confronting Nico in SG. If he did confront Nico while living at Michael's house; he might be using TWG power as a basis for his own power. WOJ is that Mouse went from being the Thing at Harry's apartment to a Hulk level upgrade at Michael's house. Those that know Marvel comics know how significant that is.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: RobReece on October 27, 2017, 11:37:00 PM
I am confused. Mouse wasn't in Summer Knight (SK). I don't recall Mouse confronting Nico in SG. If he did confront Nico while living at Michael's house; he might be using TWG power as a basis for his own power. WOJ is that Mouse went from being the Thing at Harry's apartment to a Hulk level upgrade at Michael's house. Those that know Marvel comics know how significant that is.
Sorry, my error, I've corrected it from SK to SG... and here's the quote.

(click to show/hide)
the emphasis was mine...
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 28, 2017, 12:11:47 AM
 So, my guessing that Mouse, using Michael's house as a place of power, could be able to cheat a power boost from a home that has a large family, guarded by angels, and where a former KotC resides. No wonder Anduriel was screaming with fear.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on October 29, 2017, 12:53:09 AM
I always thought nicodemus would go out with Harry grabbing the rope and force slamming him so hard his head pops off. Now, I am thinking that mouse gets the rope in his jaw a, and treats the Denarian as his own chew toy.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 29, 2017, 07:42:03 AM
Nice visual.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: SintraEdrien on October 29, 2017, 02:18:32 PM
IIRC, in Ghost Story, Uriel addressed Mouse as "Little Brother" - at least in the context here, I see that as indicating Mouse to be an entity on similar to Uriel, lesser, restricted by rules/mortal bodily manifestation, but definitely able to interact with (aka, attack/hurt/harm/destroy) Anduriel.

Quote: "We* went through the door and were greeted by a low, warning rumble. A great mound of shaggy fur, lying beside the room's single, twin bed, rose to its feet."  Ghost Story, HC, pg. 467.

* the "we" is Uriel and Harry, operating in a certainly "spiritual/angelic" state of existence, differing from a "ghostly" plane of existence, yet one that Mouse clearly sees and operates on, and imo also the same plane of existence that Andurial exists on- at first, Mouse is warning the intruders with his growl, before he recognizes them. (possibly a hint of the kind of protection Maggie needs or might end up needing?)

Quote: " "What has begun must finish, little brother," Uriel said. "Your task here is not yet over." " ibid.

Uriel wouldn't use that form of address if it weren't truth. Also (as a side-note), Mouse is communicating with Uriel, but Harry still can't hear what he is saying, even though he gets to hear Uriel's answer.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Mr. Death on October 29, 2017, 04:37:07 PM
There's a few things at play here.

As pointed out, Mouse has a superpower that has, in the past, let him attack non-corporeal things. He's also, to some extent or another, holy. According to the RPG book, his powers work similarly to a Sword of the Cross in that he can effectively bypass whatever defenses and toughness his target has when he's glowing like that.

The other thing is -- given how Mouse's powers have to do with thresholds -- Mouse is way more powerful in Skin Game than he is in Small Favor. And the fight is taking place right on Mouse's place of protection. As Jim put it, Mouse went from The Thing to The Hulk.

And Anduriel was on the Hulk's doorstep.

Threatening the Hulk's kids.

I dunno about you, but I would sure as shit want to get the hell out of there.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Mira on October 29, 2017, 05:06:47 PM


   My guess is Mouse sees through the likes of Anduriel, so there is no B.Sing a would be recruit when he is around.  Not surprised that Mouse is stronger in Skin Game than he was in Small Favor, it takes longer for large breed dogs to fully mature both physically and mentally, and I bet that goes for power level as well, not unlike wizards...
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 29, 2017, 07:59:44 PM
Not to mention an upgrade in power base resources.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on October 30, 2017, 02:05:19 AM
We know mouse is said to cheat, what if he somehow learned to draw power from the threshold/wards of demonreach? That would give him an epic bite.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 08:39:03 AM
I doubt Mouse would do that, Harry might; but, I feel Mouse would sense their purpose  and not want to tamper with those connections. Above all else, Mouse is a guardian animal and respects the idea of a prison.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: knnn on October 30, 2017, 11:09:06 AM
I've long thought that Mouse is eventually destined to be the one to end Anduriel (as much as this is possible for a Fallen), and Anduriel is aware of this.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 12:57:18 PM
How about Harry gets Nico and Mouse gets Anduriel?
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Snark Knight on October 31, 2017, 05:28:10 PM
Bob directly stated in White Night that Mouse could bite spiritual entities. The conversation where Harry asked more about Temple Dogs after Elaine recognized Mouse as a real one when his barking alerted the apartment full of people to the fire Vitto set.

Since Vadderung / Kringle explained that Anduriel's standing among the Fallen owes to his abilities as a spymaster rather than particular prowess as a warrior, I'm not surprised he'd flee confrontation with something that could harm his actual self.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: thenightwatchman on October 31, 2017, 07:52:43 PM
As others have stated, Uriel refers to him as little brother and we know he's more powerful because hes at Michael's house. That would lead me to believe he has some sort of angelic powers that are powered by the threshold or at least able to draw on them.

If that is correct then he also is also a mortal and not as restricted, if at all, to how he uses the power, like Uriel and other Angels are. I think this is what scared Anduriel so much in SG.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: kazimmoinuddin on November 01, 2017, 01:56:09 AM
I wonder if mouse is powerful enough to mess with Denarian spying, that would be an invaluable asset to have.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: jonas on November 01, 2017, 02:40:09 AM
I wonder if mouse is powerful enough to mess with Denarian spying, that would be an invaluable asset to have.
Considering Nic didn't know Harry had him he's at least a blind spot himself. Nic/Anduriel definitely had an eye on Dresden but failed to pick up on his new foo dog?
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Arjan on November 01, 2017, 02:56:00 AM
Considering Nic didn't know Harry had him he's at least a blind spot himself. Nic/Anduriel definitely had an eye on Dresden but failed to pick up on his new foo dog?
He probably knew about the dog but picking up conversations and seeing a few things is different from seeing what the dog really is.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Mr. Death on November 01, 2017, 01:38:12 PM
Plus, he's not watching him all the time. It could simply be that the times Mouse manifested his power or that Dresden was talking about it, Nicodemus was busy with something else.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Rasins on November 01, 2017, 04:55:01 PM
I'd bet that Nick's dossier on Harry said, "PETS:  1 Cat, male, 1 Dog, Male" and that's about it.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Talby16 on November 01, 2017, 06:47:51 PM
Considering Nic didn't know Harry had him he's at least a blind spot himself. Nic/Anduriel definitely had an eye on Dresden but failed to pick up on his new foo dog?

Also recall that in Turn Coat Harry brought Mouse to the trial. A great number of wizards saw Harry there with Mouse including Mai, but no mention was made of him being a Foo dog until he stood up to corroborate the identification of Peabody.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 01, 2017, 09:41:11 PM
Well, Mouse doesn't like to draw attention to himself unless necessary.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Rasins on November 02, 2017, 03:11:01 PM
Well, Mouse doesn't like to draw attention to himself unless necessary.

In fact, he goes to great lengths (his lead) to appear under the radar.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Kindler on November 02, 2017, 03:34:06 PM
Well, Mouse doesn't like to draw attention to himself unless necessary.

Makes me think of the Sphinx from Mystery Men: "Hide your strikes from your enemy, and you may more easily strike his hide."

On topic: Jim has stated that Mouse is more clued in on everything than Harry. I recall a Word of Jim wherein he states something to the effect of "If I wrote a story from Mouse's perspective, most of the mysteries would be solved immediately because he knows more than Harry does." I think he knows what it'll take to kill Anduriel, and has the ability to actually make it happen.

Also, we haven't seen the Nickelheads on Halloween yet. Are they part of the Immortals Club that can be killed on Hallows Eve?
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Rasins on November 02, 2017, 04:49:45 PM
Good question. 

I don't think so.  I think that the Angels are eternal.  Since they can be passed from one body to the next (kind of like a mantle).

Since the host is vulnerable every day, Halloween probably has no additional risk.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Kindler on November 02, 2017, 05:54:28 PM
Good question. 

I don't think so.  I think that the Angels are eternal.  Since they can be passed from one body to the next (kind of like a mantle).

Since the host is vulnerable every day, Halloween probably has no additional risk.

Can the Coins be destroyed on Halloween?
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Rasins on November 02, 2017, 06:10:04 PM
I don't think so.

Also, we really wouldn't want them destroyed.  Freeing one of the fallen would be bad bad bad.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Kindler on November 02, 2017, 07:32:23 PM
I don't think so.

Also, we really wouldn't want them destroyed.  Freeing one of the fallen would be bad bad bad.

I can't say for sure, but I don't know that they can exist without the Coins since they've been locked into them. Even if they could, freeing them would bind them in other ways, and they wouldn't be able to use mortals like they can with the Coins, too.

If the Bible in the Dresden Files is the same as it is here, there are already 33 million Fallen hanging out in Hell. What's another thirty?
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: jonas on November 02, 2017, 07:36:44 PM
I can't say for sure, but I don't know that they can exist without the Coins since they've been locked into them. Even if they could, freeing them would bind them in other ways, and they wouldn't be able to use mortals like they can with the Coins, too.

If the Bible in the Dresden Files is the same as it is here, there are already 33 million Fallen hanging out in Hell. What's another thirty?
They serve a purpose here in what they do, mainly disperse/steal apocalyptic power and balance out the KotC... imagine if the knight's didn't have 30 dispersed mirrors to balance them, but 4 primary and very powerful Nemesis's...?
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Snark Knight on November 03, 2017, 12:26:12 AM
I don't think so.  I think that the Angels are eternal.  Since they can be passed from one body to the next (kind of like a mantle).

From Uriel's actions in SG, it seems their grace functions similarly to a mantle. If you can separate the grace from the underlying being, it's plenty destructible, and the grace would be carried on by whoever was holding it when the angel was killed.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Mr. Death on November 03, 2017, 01:54:05 AM
If the Bible in the Dresden Files is the same as it is here, there are already 33 million Fallen hanging out in Hell. What's another thirty?
The other 33 million are in Hell.

The 30 aren't.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Kindler on November 03, 2017, 03:38:40 PM
The other 33 million are in Hell.

The 30 aren't.

My question is more about whether or not the Coins are what let them break the rules that bind the other Fallen—interacting with mortals directly, possessing them at times (like Ursiel)—and what would happen to them if that container was destroyed. Would they snap back to Hell? Is their presence on Earth only facilitated by the Coins, or is it necessary for them to stay here?
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Rasins on November 03, 2017, 04:27:50 PM
Jim has said that we don't want to destroy the coins because that would loose them on the earth, and that would seriously upset several balances.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Kindler on November 03, 2017, 07:24:39 PM
Jim has said that we don't want to destroy the coins because that would loose them on the earth, and that would seriously upset several balances.

Ah, okay. There goes that thought process. Though I won't deny it'd make for a fun story.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Avernite on November 03, 2017, 09:31:20 PM
Ah, okay. There goes that thought process. Though I won't deny it'd make for a fun story.
Personally I suspect they would be swept away with the burning rage of a thousand suns, if they ever got out. St. Michael and his Seraphim are there for a reason.

The only downside is that the resulting upset of balances also happens right on earth, so all kinds of other things would be scoured away. Including, one fears, plenty of innocents.
Title: Re: Mouse vs. Anduriel
Post by: Rasins on November 03, 2017, 11:51:19 PM
Personally I suspect they would be swept away with the burning rage of a thousand suns, if they ever got out. St. Michael and his Seraphim are there for a reason.

The only downside is that the resulting upset of balances also happens right on earth, so all kinds of other things would be scoured away. Including, one fears, plenty of innocents.

The Rapture?