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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: dspringer1 on October 19, 2017, 10:13:07 PM
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It is a given that new mantles can be created. this is proved by the fact that we have Santa Clause - a clearly recent invention - as a mantle held by Odin.
What might such a new mantle look like. I can speculate on some aspects
1) Mantles are tied to belief in some way That is why so many mantles are tied to old gods. Belief is also tied into the power of the Fey as evidenced by Mab's encouragement of the brothers grim fairy tales. Belief is also tied into the ability to manifest into this world - as evidenced by the Oblivion war sidebars that show up in short stories. However, many examples of mantles continuing after belief has waned, so not clear how important belief is in maintaining the power of a mantle.
2) Mantles represent people -- the are personifications of a belief. A mantle is not "gift giving", it is Santa Claus.
3) Mantles require volume. Lots of people have to believe for a sizable block of time. There is no direct evidence of this, but it is logical. The world is not buried in Mantles after all, so there must be a hard threshold that must be met.
4) I wonder if a mantle can be deliberately created -- for example by a Norse god wanting to shelter some of his waning god-power. He might break off a piece and "empower" a mantle for something meaningful in this new age - like Santa Claus. That act might be required or it might simply speed the process up.
Speculation on possible modern mantles
* I think I can rule out super heroes, movie characters, or similar creations of pop culture. People simply do not believe they are real.
* I think I can also rule out most conspiracy theories where belief is widespread and intense from the mantle creation possibility because they typically describe vague hidden forces rather than specific individuals.
* You might get a religious figure (the pope, etc), but these are not normally seen as "more than human" in that sense at least.
* You could have the "hidden special person" type mantle. The mysterious figure in hiding from the modern world. This could be the Dali Lama, Elvis, or Marylyn Monroe. All it takes is a lot of people believing "they are still out there in hiding". But you have the same problem as with the Pope. Simply because they are hiding does not make them a figure of great and mysterious power -- which is what mantles provide.
* I could see "Murphy" as a mantle that is created. Murphy as in Muprhy's Law, not Karin Murphy :). Many people believe and it is a personification of somewhat great and mysterious power.
Other ideas?
And before anyone mentions it, i will acknowledge that it is possible that the total "pool of power" available to mantles could be fixed. New mantles could simple be some portion of some old obsolete mantle refashioned into a new mantle. After all, there are almost certainly mantles so old that they have lost meaning (and thus potentially vanished...). However, for purposes of this question it does not matter if mantles are created new - or out of the "dust" of old obsolete mantles. The key point is that "new" mantles can exist.
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Jim has specifically said that the "Mantle" of Hercules became the Hulk.
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Jim has specifically said that the "Mantle" of Hercules became the Hulk.
than why herc and banner constantly duke it out for simple reasons.( hey that kinda explains why hulk is such chick magnet for powerful woman)
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I mean IIRC that particular "Mantle" now exists in the minds and imaginations of Mortals, so I guess it's just gone for all intents and purposes.
As to the OP... I'd say it depends. Mantles are about many things, I think, and so far we've only seen Fae ones. So some aren't going to follow the same rules as, for example, Mab- Which is why "Kris Kringle" is a Fae, but Odin ain't.
In regards to making new Mantles, I'll note that Jim has said that the Erlking could potentially break off a piece of his power to form a Mantle if he ever decided he wanted to be cool and have his own pet mortal Knight, so not all are necessarily bound by things like Faith.
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As to the OP... I'd say it depends. Mantles are about many things, I think, and so far we've only seen Fae ones. So some aren't going to follow the same rules as, for example, Mab- Which is why "Kris Kringle" is a Fae, but Odin ain't.
That would actually be a great question for a convention Q&A or a reddit AMA. What is the difference between a Fae monarch and a pagan god?
We know belief is important to the Fae on some level - they would have been legitimately F'ed if the (possibly rogue) Venator effort to get them forgotten hadn't been foiled by Mab's project with the Brothers Grimm. The Erlking seems to be in a similar position to Kringle, simultaneously a wyld king and a pagan god of the hunt.
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than why herc and banner constantly duke it out for simple reasons.( hey that kinda explains why hulk is such chick magnet for powerful woman)
Because Herc himself no longer holds that mantle and, consciously or unconsciously, wants it back.
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I wonder if kemmler might have created something akin to a necromantic based mantle as his legacy. That could be seen as a form of immortality.
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I would say that mantle was never a deliberate act of Kemmler. He had the faith of a few; but, greater knowledge of his existence was limited to those with serious power and an opposition to his actions.
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I wonder if kemmler might have created something akin to a necromantic based mantle as his legacy. That could be seen as a form of immortality.
I think that was what he was trying to do. You know, before the Council ganked him. Then his apprentices went for a repeat in DB, and the killjoys killed them too.
Stupid Council and their dislike for necromantic godlings
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I would say there are no new Mantles, just old ones renamed. Or old Mantles rediscovered. Lying dormant waiting for a proper bearer.
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I would say there are no new Mantles, just old ones renamed. Or old Mantles rediscovered. Lying dormant waiting for a proper bearer.
Creating a new mantle was exactly what the Darkhallow was for. Bob said in Cold Days that the reason it had to be done on Halloween was to create a new immortal - he guessed Cowl would have understood that much, but not the other two contenders.
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I would say there are no new Mantles, just old ones renamed. Or old Mantles rediscovered. Lying dormant waiting for a proper bearer.
Santa is a mantle - and the concept of Santa Claus has only been around for a few hundred years. The Fey (and thus the mantle of Winter Lady) have only been around for maybe a thousand years.
At the very least, this argues that mantles can be transformed, if not created from new.
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I guess mantles have core elements but some adaptability to necessity.
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Creating a new mantle was exactly what the Darkhallow was for. Bob said in Cold Days that the reason it had to be done on Halloween was to create a new immortal - he guessed Cowl would have understood that much, but not the other two contenders.
Immortal need not be a Mantle, though.
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Kringle is the embodiment of charity during times of sparsity. This concept has existed probably as long as civilization itself. It is called Kringle now, but likely has been called by many other names.
I think most, if not all mantles are 1:representations of some concept, 2: control mechanisms for some force or 3: situational (such as Eldest Gruff).
So long as those conditions have existed, those mantles have as well.
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In my opinion a mantle must have 5 things (but I reserve the right to add more if they occur to me):
1. Power
2. Purpose
3. Limitations
4. Belief
4. Recognition
Now these five things are separate, but tied to one another and can cover some of the same areas. First comes power. A mantle must be invested with power, otherwise it is just a name. Power must be invested to create it (ie WoJ about the Erlking creating a knight from his power) and must remain with the mantle. The power does not have give the mantle holder a big boost in physical power like the winter knight mantle. It can be in the form of knowledge or responsibilities.
Number 2, mantles must have a purpose. Even if that purpose is to act as the mantle creators proxy. The purpose can be anything the mantle creator desires, but it should be defined and if disobeyed their should be consequences (Slate as Winter Knight).
Number 3, mantles must be created with a specific limitations in mind and should be revoked if necessary. That links the mantle to the one who created it and prevents the mantle holder from using the power indiscriminately. For instance, Harry can do his own things with the winter knight mantle, but he loses it if he crosses Mab or Winter Law (as seen in Cold Days). Harry also loses the mantle if he is pierced by iron. This should also theoretically keep the mantle holder from turning on the mantle creator.
Number 4, a mantle should be believed. My personal WAG states that mantles are somewhat powered by belief. That helps power the ongoing mantle for its daily actions. For instance, most people believe the Winter Knight to be Mabs enforcer, thug, assassin, etc. If Harry is acting in accordance with that he remains empowered. If he acts completely contrary to that his power is diminished. Belief by people aware of the mantle and the mantle holder can slowly change the mantle. This is Harry's hope for himself with the Winter Knight Mantle.
Finally, number 5, recognition. The mantle must be recognizable as a mantle and as belonging to a certain faction or person. The winter knight is recognized as a part of winter and must act in accordance with winter. If the Erlking created a mantle it would be associated with him and his interests and would lose power if it diverged.
As a final note, I use all of these to support my opinion that The Warden of Demonreach is a mantle held by Harry.
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Immortal need not be a Mantle, though.
True in general (such as the naagloshii in "minimum security"), and certainly not all mantles are immortal (Sidhe Knights, and the Warden may be another).
But I think in the particular case of the Darkhallow, that was going to be a genuine mantle. It was repeatedly described as going to create a new god, and those all seem to be bona fide mantles.
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Did all the gods become gods in that way?