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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SpoonR on October 16, 2017, 05:20:45 PM

Title: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: SpoonR on October 16, 2017, 05:20:45 PM
I'm away from book. Does Ghost Story have the exact wording of Harry's bargain with Leah? Cause WAG.

Assume the bargain was Leah will help Harry defeat or kill DuMorne, in exchange for three favors. Mab has collected either one or two I think?  Now, with the DuMorne/Kemler connection Dumorne can be "dead dead" and still come back. So, DuMorne shows himself and Harry recognizes him. What happens to the bargain? The first clause is now untrue, so Harry has done favors without compensation, which leaves a pretty potent unbalance.

I'm assuming IIRC the bit from Cold Days that went something like: Harry is fine. Harry says he will break part of the Winter Knight Oath. The Knightly power disappears until he changes his mind. So the Leah/Harry oath will be "balanced" until Harry, Mab, or Leah find out DuMorne is still around. Now in the Leah/Harry oath, one favor has been equivalent to Harry using all his power to do whatever. I'm thinking this means...

Harry and the Alphas have tied up the villain. Harry reaches out and pulls off the mask...
"The ghoul! It's mister DuMorne"
"And I would have gotten away with it too if it hadn't been for you mangy wolves and that wizard."
Elsewhere, Mab is in the middle of a fight. Suddenly, two Harry's worth of power are drained from her and passed to Harry.
Mab has no power left and loses the fight. Oops. Nice job breaking it hero.

Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Kindler on October 16, 2017, 06:18:03 PM
Let me see if I understand correctly. You're saying that:

1. Lea's deal with Harry was contingent upon Justin's death (permanent death).
2. Lea selling Harry's debt to Mab gives Mab power in a real, magical-oomph-type way.
3. If Harry sees that Justin is alive, that negates the deal, and Mab suddenly loses the power she had.

If I understand this correctly, I think there might be something there. I'm not sure that obligation is a direct power boost for the Fae, so I don't think it would necessarily shake out precisely that way, but it might cause problems for her if Justin comes back.

I believe, though, that Lea's deal with Harry was specifically for the power to beat Justin, not "Justin will die." Ghost Story does not give the specific wording, though, so I could be wrong. Even if that was the case, Fae Rules-Lawyering would say that Justin's heart stopped, which killed him, and any event that brought him back is not their concern.

But if there is sufficient wiggle room in the original contract, I do believe that Harry could use that to negotiate with Mab—perhaps to negate his remaining favor while letting Harry leave the Winter Knight's mantle behind. (Though I don't think he needs to; just figure out how to drop it and wait till Halloween to pull it off).

I do want Justin to come back, if only to provide some insight into Harry's past. Maybe in Mirror, Mirror, if Cowl pulled off the Darkhallow, Justin forced his way back across the Veil in the necromantic turbulence. Who knows?
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: exartiem on October 16, 2017, 08:20:03 PM
I believe that DuMorne is not coming back.  There's a WOJ that pretty much says that.  That's not to say that we won't be seeing him.  There is a time travel book coming up.  I think Harry goes back and actually helps his younger self, possibly to the point of killing Justin himself.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Talby16 on October 16, 2017, 08:36:04 PM
I believe that the deal was contingent on power enough to beat Justin, not on his death. I would love to see Jim do another Ask me Anything Reddit so some longer form questions can be asked instead of the quick Q&A sessions at book signings. The nature of favors and power with regards to the Fae deserves a longer response.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Mira on October 17, 2017, 11:28:43 AM
I believe that the deal was contingent on power enough to beat Justin, not on his death. I would love to see Jim do another Ask me Anything Reddit so some longer form questions can be asked instead of the quick Q&A sessions at book signings. The nature of favors and power with regards to the Fae deserves a longer response.

Hasn't Jim also said that Lea didn't really give Harry anything in the bargain but a boost of confidence that he could kill Justin in a fight?  So it was a pretty dumb bargain on the part of a inexperienced sixteen year old.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Talby16 on October 17, 2017, 12:39:45 PM
Hasn't Jim also said that Lea didn't really give Harry anything in the bargain but a boost of confidence that he could kill Justin in a fight?  So it was a pretty dumb bargain on the part of a inexperienced sixteen year old.

You are correct. Here is the relevant WOJ I found:

 Should Harry’s first deal with Lea been covered by Maggie’s deal?
A:  Not really.  One problem is that Harry dealt with Lea the way that one would deal with another human, so he really didn’t get much out of the bargain besides some confidence.  Lea gave him the “magic feather” so to speak.
And, Maggie could have done a little better job on her deal with Lea, but she was kind of in a rush, so she wasn’t as detailed as she should have been.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 03:19:06 PM
Lea's magic feather seemed more like a reality smack.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: peregrine on October 17, 2017, 03:35:01 PM
I'm pretty sure the favors thing was for Harry to get out from under his obligation to Mab, as acquired from Lea.  Not part of his original deal with Lea. But that's not terribly relevant.

However, knowledge is power.  Confidence could also be power, the psychological edge that lets you know you can do something.  So even if she didn't give Harry anything quantitative to help him (and also, technically "not much" is different from "nothing") she still gave him what he needed.

And finally, even if he did ask for the power to kill Justin, if Justin survived that isn't necessarily a problem for Lea.  If I ask for the power to kill my enemies, and someone gives me a pistol, and I miss every single one of my shots and they survive, that's on me.  I had the power, I just failed to use it properly.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Mira on October 17, 2017, 05:31:49 PM
You are correct. Here is the relevant WOJ I found:

 Should Harry’s first deal with Lea been covered by Maggie’s deal?
A:  Not really.  One problem is that Harry dealt with Lea the way that one would deal with another human, so he really didn’t get much out of the bargain besides some confidence.  Lea gave him the “magic feather” so to speak.
And, Maggie could have done a little better job on her deal with Lea, but she was kind of in a rush, so she wasn’t as detailed as she should have been.

I am thinking that Harry has been played by the Winter Court since his conception.  Margaret saw the need for a star child and agreed to conceive on in return for his protection by the Winter Court, hence Harry has a real fairy godmother in the form of Lea..  The Winter Court gets not only a star child but an eventual winter knight..  I think Harry's fate has always been more or less directed by others, but not so much to over ride his free will, he still has choices.   Yeah, Jim compared Harry to Dumbo, as you will remember Dumbo could always fly, but he didn't believe it.  Young Harry didn't believe he could beat Justin though he had the power all of the time..  Lea's mumbo jumbo gave him the confidence..  However I don't think the bargain he made with her was very binding, the real contract was made between Margaret and Mab long before he was born, he just doesn't fully realize that yet.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Cozarkian on October 17, 2017, 07:03:53 PM
I agree with the thoughts that the deal probably wasn't for Justin's actual and permanent death.

Further, that isn't how Mab dies. Something happens that allows Nemesis to infect Mab. Knowing she will eventually lose the fight with Nemesis, she calls in the last favor Harry owes - kill her. Harry does, which per the deal with Mab frees him from all obligation to Winter, including his obligation as WK, stripping him of the mantle and setting off the BAT.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 08:10:59 PM
Are you sure he is beholden only to Mab; because I would suggest he is beholden to all Winter Queens.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Cozarkian on October 17, 2017, 09:42:11 PM
Are you sure he is beholden only to Mab; because I would suggest he is beholden to all Winter Queens.

Doesn't matter - I believe the original deal with Mab was to get rid of all debts to Winter. His service as WK is a debt to Winter, so completing the original deal (3 favors) will free him free from that debt.

Even if it was only a debts to Mab, his agreement to serve as WK was a deal with Mab. He might owe service to all Queens while he is WK, but he only owes Mab to be WK.

Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: peregrine on October 18, 2017, 01:03:20 AM
Are you sure he is beholden only to Mab; because I would suggest he is beholden to all Winter Queens.
His debt by way of Lea is to Mab.  His fealty by way of Winter Knighthood is to all Queens.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Cozarkian on October 18, 2017, 02:43:43 PM
His debt by way of Lea is to Mab.  His fealty by way of Winter Knighthood is to all Queens.

A forum moderator has a duty to all forum users to be fair and impartial, but the obligation to remain a moderator is only to the site owner that hired him/her.

Similarly, as WK Harry owes fealty to all of Winter, but his obligation to remain WK is only to Mab based on the Changes deal. The SK deal with Mab is three tasks in exchange for all debt to Mab ceasing. That means if Harry completes a third favor, his obligation to remain as WK ends.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: kbrizzle on October 18, 2017, 03:58:52 PM
@ Cozrkian

That’s the way I hope it plays out, but have doubts it would be so neat.

I agree with the other posters in general who consider Lea’s part of the bargain to Harry about Justin’s death being fulfilled - WoJ is that Justin is D-E-D dead, which i think is good enough for the purposes of Sidhe lawyering.

On Harry’s side, I thought a new bargain was made by Mab in Summer Knight - she wanted new terms on Harry’s debt that she ‘bought’ from Lea. The new terms of the debt were that 3 favors owed by Harry to Mab personally OR Harry becomes the WK at any point & consider all extant debts repaid? As far as Harry can tell, WK is a permanent thing (I think he’s wrong), otherwise why would he assassinate himself through Kincaid at the end of Changes?

I mean he’d already completed 2 out of the 3 favors - why wouldn’t Harry just complete the 3rd favor & be done with Mab? Each favor (solve Reuel’s murder in SK & find Marcone in SmF) has ultimately been a blow to the Outsiders/ Black Council, so the 3rd favor (which would have been to kill Maeve) would also follow the same pattern.... These are all things Harry would have done regardless of favors owed to Mab if she just explained what was really going on.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Talby16 on October 18, 2017, 04:03:55 PM
A forum moderator has a duty to all forum users to be fair and impartial, but the obligation to remain a moderator is only to the site owner that hired him/her.

Similarly, as WK Harry owes fealty to all of Winter, but his obligation to remain WK is only to Mab based on the Changes deal. The SK deal with Mab is three tasks in exchange for all debt to Mab ceasing. That means if Harry completes a third favor, his obligation to remain as WK ends.

Apologies in advance for the length of the post. Cozarkian, are you saying that the Changes deal is completely separate from the previous favors/obligation set-up with Mab? I always saw it as a continuation. If so,I am a little confused about the chain of events with regards to this debt.

Harry owes a debt to Lea. He is able to forestall her for a year and a day at the end of GP by taking the poison. Lea is forced to sell that obligation to Mab due to her power increase from accepting the knife from Bianca in GP. Mab comes to Harry in Summer Knight and offers to erase the obligation in exchange for three favors. Harry accepts after a few conditions. The first favor is to act as Winter's Emissary which he completes. Then (in SK) Mab makes the Winter Knight offer:

"We have a traitor among us," Mab purred. "And he will be dealt with accordingly. After which there will be an opening for a new Knight." She watched me and said, "I would have someone worthy of more trust as his successor. Accept that power and all debts between us are canceled."

To me, this means erasing the obligation Mab took from Lea and the two favors Harry owes Mab for that obligation. Mab calls upon Harry again in Small Favor to be her emissary in the matter of the Denarians taking Marcone. She again makes the Winter Knight offer to Harry:

"Unless you should agree to take up the mantle of the Winter Knight," Mab said, smiling. "I should be forced to choose another Emissary if you did, and your involvement in this matter could end." This is followed by:

She tilted her head to one side and stared at me. "One day, wizard, you will kneel at my feet and ask me to bestow the mantle upon you."

"But not today."

"No," Mab said. "Today you repay me a favor. Just as I said you would."

Harry once again completes this task removing another favor leaving one still owed to erase his debt to Mab. Finally in Changes Harry calls upon Mab. He offers to become the Winter Knight with one condition:

"That before my service begins, you restore my body to health. That you grant me time enough to rescue my daughter and take her to safety, and strength and knowledge enough to succeed. And you give me your word that you will never command me to lift my hand against those I love."

Mab accepts, Harry kills Slate, and then Mab and Harry "seal the deal." Granted, at no point do either Mab or Harry mention this taking away the third favor owed or erasing Harrys previous obligation to Mab. Yet, based upon previous encounters this would erase Harry's third favor and his previous obligation to Mab wiping that previous slate clean.

My understanding is that the Winter Knight deal erased the obligation and favors and thus completing another favor will not negate the Winter Knight deal.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Cozarkian on October 18, 2017, 05:48:28 PM
@Talby

In 2009 I offered to sell you my house for $ and I'll throw in the furniture. You said no, rejecting the offer. I tell you that one day you will beg me to sell you my house for $. Eight years later after the market recovery you come to me and say you would like to buy my house for $. I agree to the deal. However, per law, I am not obligated to give you the furniture because you previously rejected my earlier offer and did not include the furniture in your new offer.

The same applies to Harry - he rejected the SmF deal to become WK and the changes deal was a new offer with different terms.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Talby16 on October 18, 2017, 08:12:17 PM
Hmmm, I understand that. How would Harry claim that a task his liege set forth for him is a favor though. She has the ability to order him to do something and if he refuses she can kill or strip the mantle from him. Getting rid of the mantle would be a plus, but it is much more likely that she would outright kill him for a direct refusal. His only option is to refuse a request and hope that she comes back with "do it as a favor for me," but we have already seen in Skin Game that she is capable of arranging things so that Harry would find it impossible to refuse a request. If she wants Harry to do something she is going to set it up so that he can't say no.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Cozarkian on October 18, 2017, 09:35:16 PM
Because it's Mab's plan in the first place. She knows there may be a time in the near future when she needs to die.

The dirty secret behind the WK is that by bestowing their power upon a mortal the Queens make themselves vulnerable to the WK. Most WKs couldn't pull off though, and as of Cold Days, Harry still can't (Mab can't lie when she tells Harry he would die before he could pull the trigger), but Mab chose and is training Harry precisely so he will be able and ready to kill her, and she will deliberately ask him to do it as a favor, rather than an order.

It will be something like "Harry, you fool, shut up and listen to me. I've been infected by the adversary. I can fight him for now but the time will come when I will start to lose control. When that time comes, I need you to do me a favor, I need you to kill me."

Or I could be completely wrong, but that's my WAG.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 18, 2017, 10:21:51 PM
  I can see future assassin of Mab as strongly possible. But, if he should find a way to rid himself of the mantle; she should not be able to force him to re-take the WK mantle as payment of the 3rd favor or could she?
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Cozarkian on October 18, 2017, 11:13:11 PM
  I can see future assassin of Mab as strongly possible. But, if he should find a way to rid himself of the mantle; she should not be able to force him to re-take the WK mantle as payment of the 3rd favor or could she?

The original rules would still be in play - he gets to pick the favors he fulfills and she can't punish him for refusal or send lackeys to harass him.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 18, 2017, 11:27:56 PM
Putting aside the question if Harry could kill Mab for a moment. Would Harry be willing to kill Mab if she said she was Nem-infected or would she have to do or threaten to do something drastic and horrible to one of his loved ones in order for him to kill her?
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Cozarkian on October 19, 2017, 12:47:40 AM
Putting aside the question if Harry could kill Mab for a moment. Would Harry be willing to kill Mab if she said she was Nem-infected or would she have to do or threaten to do something drastic and horrible to one of his loved ones in order for him to kill her?

He probably won't want to, but will eventually be forced to realize it is a necessity. I don't envision it as a kill me - Harry kills her scene, it will be a subplot to the book with the death of Mab being the final climax. Either the last book setting up the BAT (Faith Astor could be tied in with the Fae) or the first book of the BAT.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Rasins on October 27, 2017, 03:42:38 PM
I thought Jim pretty much put the third favor question to bed by saying that as WK he owes no favors, but that a debt never goes away.  Implying that if he gets out of being WK, the favor is still owed.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Kindler on October 27, 2017, 06:43:51 PM
I thought Jim pretty much put the third favor question to bed by saying that as WK he owes no favors, but that a debt never goes away.  Implying that if he gets out of being WK, the favor is still owed.

Makes me wonder if Harry could've gotten more out of the deal he made to become the Winter Knight. Wipe his debt completely clean, provide money (maybe in the form of gold or whatever Mab can get her hands on) for his daughter, et cetera. I know he was going to her out of desperation, but at that point, milk it for all it's worth, you know?
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Cozarkian on October 27, 2017, 06:57:20 PM
I thought Jim pretty much put the third favor question to bed by saying that as WK he owes no favors, but that a debt never goes away.  Implying that if he gets out of being WK, the favor is still owed.

Do you happen to have the exact quote Based on the way you represent it, I think it supports the position. Harry might not be obligated to fulfill a favor while he is WK but it doesn't mean he can't choose to, and if the debt never goes away, nor does Mab's promise that Harry's obligation to her will cease if Harry does fulfill a favor. It strikes me as a sneaky way of JB trying to cast doubt on something he has planned without directly lying.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Rasins on October 27, 2017, 07:24:18 PM
 http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947675.html#msg947675 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,21772.msg947675.html#msg947675)
Quote
Now, prior to Cold Days Dresden still owes Mab one favour, does he still owe her that favour or did the events of Cold Days make up for his obligation?
Technically yeah, he still kind of owes her that one favour, but on the other hand, he also sort of owes her his complete loyalty, devotion and obedience so the extra favour is, you know, it's like "yeah okay, he also does have a hand grenade in his hand while he's sitting on top of a nuke that's about to go off", so you know, technically she could probably mess with that if he somehow got out of being the knight, But uh, generally speaking that didn't just get wiped away, Mab keeps very good books and that's not something that's going to be, she does not let things slide, it does not happen.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 28, 2017, 12:27:54 AM
I can see the last favor as a backup plan against Harry. You kinda need to have a couple when dealing with him.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 01:56:18 PM
I can see the last favor as a backup plan against Harry. You kinda need to have a couple when dealing with him.

I could see him getting out of being the Winter Knight and thinking he is free, only for Mab to show up and claim that last favor for something Harry would not like or want to do. The thought of his internal monologue when he realizes he still owes a favor is making me smile.
Title: Re: DuMorne and favors owed
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 02:22:44 PM
Yeah, that is a moment that can't come soon enough.