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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => DF Reference Collection => Topic started by: raidem on October 14, 2017, 08:49:39 PM

Title: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 14, 2017, 08:49:39 PM

So many of you have asked about my Mab/Murphy theory.  I truly don't know how it could happen, either in some alternate reality it is true, or if it did occur in the past via TT, or she becomes Mab in the future.  But, I think I can say a case can be made where there are potential ironies that exist should Jim skew that way.  There are more than the ones I listed here, but these are the ones that I recall at the moment.

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1)

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2. the white council - isn't mab her true name?
It's /one/ of her Names.  But God help the simp (or Council of simps) who tries to control her with that and nothing else.  Ugh, that would get ugly.

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Instead of trying to play shepherd, you need to play coach, and get her into shape to do what she needs to do."
"But that means-"
"Telling her everything," my double said. "The White Council, the Nevernever, all of it."
"The Council won't like it. If I tell her and they hear about it, they might consider her a security risk."
"And if you don't make her able to understand what she's fighting, something's going to eat her face some dark night. Murphy's a big girl. The Council had better be careful if they decide to go messing with her." My double considered Murphy for a moment. "You should ask her out sometime, too."
"I should what?" I said.

2)

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WOJ- Mab wasn't always so big, followed by :).
Murphy constantly joked with about her height.
Shakespeare reference to Hermia in Midsummer's Night Dream (And though she be but little, she is fierce.)

*)

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Something was upsetting her. A lot.
"Murph?" I asked through the door. "Where did the aliens hide your pod?"
She opened the door enough to scowl at me. "What's that supposed to mean?"
"No pod, huh. Maybe you're an evil twin from another dimension or something."
The muscles along her jaw clenched, and her expression promised murder.
I sighed. "You don't seem to be your usual serf. I'm not an analyst or anything, but you kinda look like something is bothering you. Just maybe."
She waved a hand. "It's this paperwork-"
"No, it isn't," I said. "Come on, Murphy. It's me."
"I don't want to talk about it."

So what does she not want to talk about...a Family Reunion where she won't have a date and the fact she had two divorces. It's also the first reference to familial dementia with the second reference being made by Sarissa in Cold Days) Murphy later finds out her ex will be her brother in law, ouch. And, her mother is accepting of it.  Who does that start to remind you of, cough.

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Oberon... well, the guy kind of wound up between Mab and Titania in one of those romantic triangle things, back around Shakespeare's day. He didn't make it.

That sounds like Mab and Titania maybe had some jealous/rivalry issues in their past.  I wonder where that came from.
3)

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She shrugged. “I don’t know. I don’t want to think about it. I don’t want to make any more decisions. So . . . I think I’m going to go get really drunk. And then have mindless sex with the first reasonably healthy male who walks by. Then have a really awkward hangover. And after that, we’ll see.”
“Sounds like a good plan,” I said. And my mouth kept going without checking in with the rest of me. Again. “Do you want some company?...Her hand went to her hair and she forced it back down. “I want to . . .” She took a breath. “I’ll pick you up in an hour?”

Who picks Harry up in an Hour, Mab after he is shot dead.

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4)

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Karrin’s hands flew out from behind her back in a shower of broken chips of black ice. She tore her little holdout gun from a concealed ankle holster.
“No!” I shouted.
Two shots rang out, almost simultaneously.Something hissed spitefully past my ear.
A neat, round black hole appeared just to the side of Maeve’s nose, at the fine line of her cheekbone.
Maeve blinked twice. Her face fell into what was almost precisely the same expression of confusion Lily’s had. A trickle of blood ran from the hole.

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Mab moved so quickly that I literally never saw it. The gun was suddenly, simply gone from my hand and was being pushed into my face—in exactly the same spot where Maeve had been shot.

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“Was it hard for you to kill Maeve?”
Mab did not turn around. When she spoke, her voice had something in it I had never heard there before and never heard again—uncertainty. Vulnerability.
“I was mortal once, you know,” she said, very quietly.

But, Murphy, a mortal, had killed Maeve.
5)

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I clenched my fists along with my teeth. “You . . . you bitch.”
Mab slapped me.

Whose the other bitch in the series.  Just kidding.

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Her smile sharpened. “Is it not quite the game?” she asked. “In my younger days, I would have relished such a novel challenge.”
“Yeah,” I said. “Gee. Thanks.”

And yet...

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“It is necessary to set one condition.”
Her eyes narrowed. “What condition?”
“Backup,” I said. “I want an extra pair of eyes along. Someone of my choosing.”

Harry chose Murphy as his Backup, who perhaps in 'her' younger days, participated in the 'novel challenge.'
6) Just examine in a reread of all the deals Murphy makes. She is very transactional.  It's likely she has lots of faerie blood given her Irish roots. And her families proximity in dealing with the supernatural.

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Harry touches Molly, Winter Lady via dream.

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I dreamed.
It was one of those fever dreams, noisy and bright and disjointed. I don’t remember many of the details—just that I could never keep up with what was happening, and I felt as though as soon as my eyes would focus on something, everything would change, and as soon as I caught up to the action that was happening in the dream, it would roar off in a different direction, leaving me struggling to reorient myself, trying to keep up the pace with my feet dragging in the mud. The whole while, I was conscious of several other Harry Dresdens in the dream, all of them operating a little ways off from me, doing their own confusion dance in parallel to mine, and we occasionally paused to wave at one another and exchange polite complaints.
Toward the end of it, I found myself driving along some random section of road in my old multicolored Volkswagen Bug, the Blue Beetle, scowling ahead through heavy rain. My apprentice, Molly, sat next to me.

Harry touches Mab/Murphy, Winter Queen through dream?

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“Now,” she breathed. “Don’t hold back. Don’t hold back.”
And suddenly I couldn’t, wouldn’t, didn’t want to. I braced my hands on the bed, holding my weight off of her, and could think of nothing but how good it felt, about the pleasure building and building.
“Yes,” Karrin hissed. “Come on.”
I reached the shuddering edge—
—and felt something cold and hard press against my temple.
I opened my eyes and saw her holding her SIG against the side of my head. And as I watched, a second set of eyes, glowing with a hellish violet light, opened above her eyebrows, and a burning sigil of the same fire, in a shape vaguely reminiscent of an hourglass, appeared on her forehead.
Her voice changed, became lower, richer, more sensual. “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned,” she purred.
And then she pulled the trigger.

Placeholder.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 14, 2017, 09:30:43 PM

Bah, can someone help me find the WOJ that Mab wasn't always so big :).  I distinctly remember Jim stating something like that with a smiley alluding to Mab being a dew drop faerie, or at least something consistent with Shakespeare, at least in humor.  I liked to take it as Jim hinting at Murphy being Tiny.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Ananda on October 15, 2017, 02:50:52 AM

Do you mean similarities and coincidences of word choice in description rather than irony? I’m not seeing irony.

Personally, I would find such small universe loops to be boring. Let the universe, which is already small, not collapse in on itself. Also, Butcher’s writing is not exactly high art. That he repeats phrases and words is probably more a function of churning out the stories and a pretty short editing process. You can find a lot of sentences and paragraphs in the books that cry out for further editing. And, some authors just have favourite words; look at Stephen R Donaldson with his “roynish” and “gloaming”.

I think Murphy is Murphy and Mab is Mab and that you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: jonas on October 15, 2017, 04:02:08 AM

Quote from: Ananda on October 15, 2017, 02:50:52 AM

Do you mean similarities and coincidences of word choice in description rather than irony? I’m not seeing irony.

Personally, I would find such small universe loops to be boring. Let the universe, which is already small, not collapse in on itself. Also, Butcher’s writing is not exactly high art. That he repeats phrases and words is probably more a function of churning out the stories and a pretty short editing process. You can find a lot of sentences and paragraphs in the books that cry out for further editing. And, some authors just have favourite words; look at Stephen R Donaldson with his “roynish” and “gloaming”.

I think Murphy is Murphy and Mab is Mab and that you’re seeing things that aren’t there.

One day, ONE DAY, he will no longer have any more of his original storyline to protect and maybe then he'll open up on all those things short sighted people missed. The breadth and depth of combining pop culture and mythologies from across the globe would get it a pass even if it wasn't magnificently layered and set up. A 20 book preplanned series that actually made it to fruition in the main stream? That gives it so much bona fides.
fyi- an maybe a curator would know where it originally came from, because I first heard it from Serack, Jim intentionally uses words to cross connect idea's. Someone did a thread on the blackmagic/ N connection words iirc.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 15, 2017, 12:29:38 PM

Well, I said potential irony, in the case that Murphy=Mab. 

These are coincidences.  We assume many of these to have different non meanings in regard to mab and Murphy.  I'm the only one that has pursued it in any capacity. There is potential irony in the case of a reading whereby Murphy is truly mab.  It puts an entirely different spin on what is being said, Which is a type of irony.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Ananda on October 16, 2017, 01:46:05 AM

Quote from: jonas on October 15, 2017, 04:02:08 AM

One day, ONE DAY, he will no longer have any more of his original storyline to protect and maybe then he'll open up on all those things short sighted people missed. The breadth and depth of combining pop culture and mythologies from across the globe would get it a pass even if it wasn't magnificently layered and set up. A 20 book preplanned series that actually made it to fruition in the main stream? That gives it so much bona fides.
fyi- an maybe a curator would know where it originally came from, because I first heard it from Serack, Jim intentionally uses words to cross connect idea's. Someone did a thread on the blackmagic/ N connection words iirc.

I didn’t say the story was bad, but rather that Butcher is not a great writer. The first few books amaze me in that they got published at all given how bad they are. His writing has improved over the years, but that’s not saying they are *good* now. The story is fun, but it’s not well written. There is a difference between an entertaining story and good writing. Butcher has an entertaining story in the Dresden Files and that’s why I buy the books despite the writing. (Though, if not for a friend insisting that the story was worth trudging through the first books, I would have stopped pretty early in book one.)

On the other hand, his new series, The Windlass or whatnot, was both poorly written and formulaic and I found that I could barely finish it. I will not buy the next one.

I’ll be incredibly surprised if your theory regarding the two Ms is true, however. Still, we’ll  have to wait till 2030something to find out.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Cozarkian on October 16, 2017, 02:03:43 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 14, 2017, 09:30:43 PM

Bah, can someone help me find the WOJ that Mab wasn't always so big :).  I distinctly remember Jim stating something like that with a smiley alluding to Mab being a dew drop faerie, or at least something consistent with Shakespeare, at least in humor.  I liked to take it as Jim hinting at Murphy being Tiny.

I believe it was responding to a question about Toot growing.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 16, 2017, 04:10:17 PM

I think the connections are tenuous. I prefer Murphy and Mab as separate beings who share some similarities. I do promise to kneel and pay respect if you are correct at the end (for whatever that is worth).

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 16, 2017, 04:21:06 PM

Alright, now I'll try to argue against it, or at least pose potential hurdles to overcome.
First off, why would Murphy name her children Maeve and Sarissa knowing their fate.  Or, did she already name them that, so in one reality/alternate reality it's set in stone.
Second, does Maeve or Sarissa look similar to Murphy?  Surely genetics would play a part even if the mantle had shaped Murphy into Mab's appearance. Or do Maeve and Sarissa simply look like Mab, so the genetics actually get changed to Mab genetics.
Third, WOJ has it that Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters. (I can propose a set of conditions that fulfill the requirements here but it requires two Murphy's from two alternate realities and Harry's joke to Murphy about a evil twin)
Fourth, It's likely someone would know Mab's identity in Faerie, particularly Lea, who rose to power with her.  So, throughout the series, Lea would be fully aware of Murphy's fate.  And most certainly would Vadderung, and the other highest powers.  I'd argue that Nic/Anduriel does too because Mab, supposedly our Mab, had to make a great many deals (one with Nic) in her takeover of the defense at the Outergates. It would put a new spin on things with Nic/Murphy and Nic/Mab faceoff during SkinGame.  Mac also has history with Mab, so its possible when Mac was IN, he was in a position to know. (See SG and greetings. See Murphy face off against Tiny in Small Favor: Mac is impressed and gives them REAL mead.) I'd estimate that the Gatekeeper knows, he has been their the longest, and is the eldest of the wizards.  )
Fifth, Any time plots worth their salt would try to aim at undercutting Murphy's ascension to Mab.  Though, if true, it would be fairly difficult to disestablish that once it had occurred 1000+ years ago.
Sixth, Murphy would need to time travel back 1000+ years ago, most likely with Harry. They would have to participate in events and overturn historical inertia.  Murphy would need to supplant a Winter Lady.  She would need some time and team up with Lea.  She would then given an event that would take out both Winter and Summer Queens ascend to Mab.  This event would coincide with the last time things got off/awful in the wizarding world. Given this, a book would probably need to revisit around the Battle of Hastings, perhaps around the time where Merlin created Demonreach at one of the points in time.  Team Good launches counter to Team Bad at this point in time which gives Team Good license to time travel to then and affect change.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 16, 2017, 08:20:25 PM

Most importantly, the MOTHERS would know.  Though they always are giving hints about being able to keep oneself.  Harry thinks they are talking about him, or we think maybe about Molly, but are they talking about Murphy mantled as Mab.  They say a great many things with maximum ambiguity.

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“I’m saying many things,” Mother Summer said. “Do you have a chance to remain yourself despite the tendency of the mantle to mold your thoughts and desires? All Knights, Winter and Summer, have that chance. Most fail.”
“But it’s possible,” I said.
She looked up at me and her eyes were deeper than time. “Anything is possible.”
“Ah,” I said, understanding. “We’re not really talking about me.”
“We are,” she said serenely, turning her eyes away. “And we are not.”
“Uh,” I said. “I’m getting a little confused here. What are we talking about, exactly?”
Mother Summer smiled at me.
And then she just clammed up.
We are? We’re not?

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2015 AMA
Is Nic older than Mab?
He is.

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FitzMelech: @longshotauthor  Is Rashid the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred?
Jim: @FitzMelech He's the guy who took /down/ AlHazred.
Sarks: You have said that the Gatekeeper took down the Mad Arab, Abdul Alhazred. Is that Gatekeeper the same one we have currently? If yes, is he really that old, or was it time travel?
Jim: 3) He's really that old. And we're all time travelers. We just happen to be on the slow boat.

Gatekeeper is approximately 1300+ years old. Old enough to be alive, an active wizard to have already taken out Alhazred before our Mab ascended to Mab.
So, given that Nic, Gatekeeper, Lea, and Vadderung would be in the know about Mab's true identity, it is necessary to examine their interaction with Murphy for clues.  As far as the Archangels, we already know they Archangels took an interest in Murphy.  Murphy trains with the einherjar, was at CI, and particpated in the Wild Hunt so she is on Vadderung's radar.  ErlKing's radar would have noticed her at the Wild Hunt in CD.

I need to add Vadderung's hint to Harry about mask/mantles on Halloween in CD.  Was he hinting about someone other than Harry, say Mab/Murphy, putting on or discarding a mantle on Halloween.

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“Maybe you’ll try,” Kringle replied amiably. He looked out at the lightening sky and let out a satisfied breath. “It was Halloween, Dresden. You put on a mask for a time. That’s all.” He looked directly at me and said, “Many, many mantles are worn—or discarded—on Halloween night, wizard.”
“You mean masks?” I asked, frowning.
“Masks, mantles,” Kringle said. “What’s the difference?”
He winked at me.
And for the briefest fraction of a second, the shadows falling from the tower and the cottage in the gathering morning behind us seemed to flow together. The eye he winked with vanished behind a stripe of shadow and what looked like a wide scar. His face seemed leaner, and for that instant I saw Vadderung’s wolfish features lurking inside Kringle’s.
I sat straight up, staring.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 17, 2017, 11:58:38 PM

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Question, prior to CD, were Mab and Murphy ever in each other's presence or has Mab ever made reference to Murphy? While I believe that Mab knew of Murphy and her ties to Harry, I don't think that Mab credited her with much significance.

First off, if Mab is a time traveling character that has yet to go into the past, then Mab would need to minimize her interactions and deals with her prior self as that would greatly complicate time travel related plots.
(This isn't directly relevant but I read it yesterday, it stood out in a way where one thing Mab does leads to multiple ways Harry and Murphy interact and overcome personal issues)
It's not in PG, but in SK when Mab asks Harry to work for her on a homicide and stolen object (summer knight), Mab forces Harry to stab himself with a letter opener.  He goes to White Council where he basically gets forced into choosing to work for Mab then goes to Murphy for help on the homicide investigation, police files, etc.  Murphy is in a hot mess with her ex dying from cancer, and with nightmares after Kravos impersonated Harry and got inside her head.  Short story short, Murphy took care of Harry's hand.  The case brings them together and out of both their deep funks as Harry was in a deep funk from losing Susan to RCV (half-turned).  It also seems likely that Mab may have neutralized some magic that Harry ate from Kravos that was lingering see excerpt.

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Mab placed her gloved hand on my wounded one, and a sudden spike of sheer, vicious cold shot up through the injury like a frozen scalpel before lancing up my arm, straight toward my heart.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 18, 2017, 02:57:15 PM

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No offense intended to you, Raidem; you aren't simply throwing this out there with no reasonable evidence. There are parallels between Murphy and Mab to be drawn. I just don't think they indicate time travel.

I understand; And, thank you. I've struggled with the theory too. I've entertained one that doesn't need time travel, that Murphy becomes Mab in the future or alternate reality not distant past. It's definitely less cumbersome.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Ananda on October 19, 2017, 02:20:48 AM

Quote from: raidem on October 18, 2017, 02:57:15 PM

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No offense intended to you, Raidem; you aren't simply throwing this out there with no reasonable evidence. There are parallels between Murphy and Mab to be drawn. I just don't think they indicate time travel.

No offense intended to you, Raidem; you aren't simply throwing this out there with no reasonable evidence. There are parallels between Murphy and Mab to be drawn. I just don't think they indicate time travel

Did you just time travel to make your point? scary!

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 19, 2017, 03:03:17 AM

Wow, I don't know how that happened.  I guess I was trying to copy and move over a quote from another thread to here.  And, then I was suppose to be writing a reply.

Hmmm...I forget the reply I wrote. LOL
Edited: I found what i was copying to paste there. It's corrected.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 19, 2017, 07:45:07 AM

Is it a case of old age or busy mind? Seems like I have been experiencing both of late. And, yes, I am only 42.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 19, 2017, 07:37:38 PM

We already had a form of Time Travel at least according to one of the characters in the series, Murphy, and it resulted in her demotion.

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She wiped at her mouth and looked at her watch. She tucked the last of her sandwich between her lips, and then started resetting the watch while she chewed.
“Gone almost exactly twenty-four hours. So we did some kind of time travel?” she asked.
“Oh, God no,” I said. “That’s on the list of Things One Does Not Do. It’s one of the seven Laws of Magic.”
“Maybe,” she said. “But however it happened, a whole day just went poof.
That’s time travel.”
“People are doing that kind of time travel all the time,” I said. “We just pulled into the passing lane for a while.”
She finished setting the watch and grimaced. “All the same.”
I frowned at her. “You okay?”
She looked up at the children and their mother. “I’m going to have one hell of a time explaining where I’ve been for the past twenty-four hours. It isn’t as though I can tell my boss that I went time traveling.”
“Yeah, he’d never buy it. Tell him you invaded Faerieland to rescue a young woman from a monster-infested castle.”
“Of course,” she said. “Why didn’t I think of that?”
I grunted. “Is it going to make trouble for you?”
She frowned for a moment and then said, “Intradepartmental discipline, probably.

So, it's possible that Team Harry (time travelers) enter the mortal world during those 24 hours in which Harry's team were off in the NeverNever.
Again, it would allow Murphy to be involved in time traveling, another detail to support TTMurphy theories.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 22, 2017, 09:41:39 PM

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Moved from Spammed Thread.
maybe it could be all the missing clues I need for my Mab=Murphy theory.

If I don't have them, nobody does lol.

lol.  I cleared another hurdle today. At least on Reddit I did. I had assumed on this website I didn't need to argue it.

Someone argued that no Murphy couldn't be Mab because they don't look like each other.  Or that TTHarry would have to change how TTMurphy looks thousand+ years ago.
I responded that no, the Queen Mantles (including Lady's) would/could morph a person's appearance into the Mab personified 'look'.

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[4:37 PM] raidem: I had this question, and some of my theories depend on it.  I assumed Mab's mantle morph's her original appearance to that of Mab's mask over a period of time.  We know from Bob that Molly over time will be similar in behavior to Maeve as the mantle tends to bend the individual in that given direction.  Is there a similar bend in one's physical appearance over time too?
[4:46 PM] raidem: Lily's hair changed upon becoming Summer Lady "Her hair had been pulled back into a ponytail. And it had turned snow white." in SK 
[4:50 PM] raidem: And if I hadn’t known better, if I hadn’t known Lily’s features well enough to be sure it was her, I would have sworn that I was looking at Aurora, the Summer Lady I’d murdered at the stone table. [CD]

So, Murphy would be Winter Lady, for how long I don't know (WOJ our Mab as a Winter Lady chose Lea to be her handmaiden).  Her appearance would have to already begun to shift.  And, then some sudden set of events that aligned with the last time things got awful in the wizarding world, it ended with at least both Mab and Titania dying, who else we don't know, which allowed our Mab, our Titania to assume the mantle of Queen roughly around the time of the Battle of Hastings.  Around that time, Mab and Titania stop speaking.  Give us 1000+ years and I don't think we can assume we would be able to identify that Murphy that had been Mab for 1000+ years is our Murphy.  They'd look totally different.  So, that is one thing my theory counts on, a mask for Queen Mab that camouflages her identity, which will stun us when it is revealed.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 22, 2017, 09:59:37 PM

The other hurdle that I've addressed on Reddit regards the Lady's self defense against either sex or pregnancy.  Many people want to assume that the Lady mantle only can go to a true virgin.
I argued that Molly may have had sex between when she hadn't gone the whole way (said so in one book) to the time she took up the mantle.  (ambiguous)
I argued that Sarissa surely in her 150+ years had has sex.  Others argued that she didn't have sex in fear that they'd be pawns used against her, Mab, etc.
I got tired of arguments so I brought up Lily, who admitted to being raped by Slate.  Who Maeve admitted to allowing Slate to take. There is extremely high evidence that Lily had sex, and that in fact she did become the Summer Lady, so in fact there is no "Virgin" requirement imposed to be a Lady.  Only one that is imposed on you while Lady.

The cleared hurdle I take from this is that, yes Murphy is eligible for the Lady mantle if prepared even though she has had sex, though no children.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: peregrine on October 22, 2017, 10:46:31 PM

That assumes that the same rules apply for the Winter and Summer ladies.  It's possible that the Summer Lady need not be a virgin.  She almost certainly doesn't have the same conflicting impulses of wanting to but being unable to, mate.

That said, while it makes some kind of thematic sense, there's nothing whatsoever in the books to strongly argue for it, it's never really come up.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 22, 2017, 10:53:11 PM

I would believe that Summer Ladies are more coquette and demure with their attractions then Winter Ladies; each manner would be appealing to masculine mentality.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 23, 2017, 12:26:29 AM

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“I didn’t want the world. I didn’t want vast riches, or fame, or power. I wanted a husband. Children. Love. A home that we made together. And that can never happen now.” The tears fell, and as the heat, the fury, came back into her voice, the fire gathered around her again. “Because of you. Because you killed Aurora. Because you made me into this. You raise your hand against my champion, my friend, and when you are defeated you dare tell me what I must and must not do?”

I think Lily has similar issues regarding mating and having children. She even says so.
If she could have a guy, a kid, love on the side it, she wouldn't be complaining about it in Cold Days.  So, even she in her position as Summer Lady has the restriction of imposed virginity while wearing the mantle.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 23, 2017, 12:52:25 AM

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Near the end, Mab is in full judge mode, who is she judging?

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-EG-The Archive 2 points 12 hours ago
Nic. And Harry to some degree.

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Raedem2 1 point a minute ago
Maybe herself too. (If I go with my theory Mab=Murphy, then she is like how dare my younger self lose to Nic in a sword fight, end up breaking the Sword of Faith, and be outmaneuvered by Nic in manipulating ME) I'm in judge mode right now because my emotions are in a roil over these same events that happen now, but also for me 1000+ years ago as Murphy. And, I'm stung, but like...Justice is finally served, NIC.

...Now go back to Murphy's bedside you dupe and make out with her again, because I liked it.
Or, maybe she didn't.  How dare you start falling in love with me. You will never free me from this mantle, Never.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 23, 2017, 04:06:31 AM

@raidem, I'm sure you have already considered this and posted about this somewhere else so forgive me, but how do you reconcile this WOJ with your Mab/Murphy theory?

2014 AMA
Can we get a break down of the biological relationships between the various Fae Queens we have seen on screen? Of particular interest - Maeve and Sarissa, were they actually Mab's kids (biological sense)? If so, who was Mab's baby daddy?

Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.
Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 23, 2017, 02:20:28 PM

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Can we get a break down of the biological relationships between the various Fae Queens we have seen on screen? Of particular interest - Maeve and Sarissa, were they actually Mab's kids (biological sense)? If so, who was Mab's baby daddy?
Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.
Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.

I will break down the WOJ into two parts, from least complicated to most complicated with respect to my theory that Mab=Murphy, and then attempt to explain them.

Quote

Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.

Note (Mab=Murphy) This requires Murphy to parent a set of twins with an Austrian composer and musician. She names them Maeve and Sarissa. She knows that Nemesis will likely get to Maeve, given her history on Demonreach in the future, her past, and for whatever reason (time travel paradox) still names them those same very names. She proceeds with plans to prevent this from occurring and despite all she does, it still happens.
 Or, She knows her history, but the point in which she travels into the past she enters a slightly different alternate reality so she is uncertain as to exactly what will happen again.

Quote

Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.

This one is the most problematic.  I can explain it away a few different ways.
1) Biologically, over time, Mab and Titania become actual twin sisters.  See the way the Lady mantle morph's Lily into looking like Aurora.  Give it a few more decades, and they probably would look exactly alike.
2) Mab and Titania mantles are 'actual' twin sisters.
3) Murphy has a twin sister that accompanies her into the past to ascend the Queen mantles around the same time.
4) Murphy's evil/good twin, -Murphy, from an alternate reality travels into the past to ascend the Queen mantles around the same time. (she fits the definition of identical twin.) *Harry makes a joke about it in one of the books about Murphy having an evil twin. *We will likely see another Murphy in Mirror Mirror.

There is also this WOJ, that I have to navigate around.

Quote

I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous.  They're a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close.

(*Mab=Murphy) This requires Murphy to be a Winter Lady, choose Lea to be her handmaiden. It seems "same thing" with Titania suggests our Titania (perhaps Murphy's twin) was Summer Lady.  Both ascended in an event that took out the Mab and Titania of the time.  And somehow both our Mab and Titania are skittish around Harry.  With Mab, it's more about considering him an enemy.  So, did Harry or something like Harry orchestrate, or directly take out, the prior Queens?  They really have a hyperfocus on Harry personally, even before it seems Storm Front.  It might have to do with what he was born to be.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 23, 2017, 06:31:18 PM

Thanks for the reply. I was certain you would have an explanation for that particular WoJ. As you say, the Maeve/Sarissa part is easy to explain. If Murphy goes back in time and becomes Mab she will have plenty of time to have twins. Surprisingly, for me, I have an easier time accepting explanation number 4 for the Mab/Titania twin issue than the other ones, even though that is on the surface the most complex/unlikely. Number 1 would be a cop out in my opinion. For number 2, I do not think familial relationships are inherent to the mantles. I also have trouble believing that we have had no hint of a twin sister for Murphy through 15 books. That leaves number 4, however unlikely it appears on the surface.

I've often wondered about the purpose of the Mirror Mirror books. Presumably, it will be set almost entirely in the alternate reality. If that is the case, what will Harry gain from it to further his progression/journey. If he gains nothing and all his actions/consequences are contained in the alterante reality, then MM is nothing but a placeholder book. A fun look at the alternate fates of the characters I'm sure, but nothing that will help Harry win/survive in the BAT. I'm guessing he at least comes away from MM with some new insight or knowledge about the Outsiders and/or Black Council that he can apply in his reality. However, it is fun to speculate about the characters he will encounter and the potential for crossover.

For example, what if the MM Murphy decides to transfer out of Special Investigations. She is never exposed to the horror of the spooky world (but knows it still exists) and maybe ends up in a happier headspace. Her sense of duty rear its head when our Harry comes calling and she will accompany him and our Murphy back to the past where her different circumstances make her ideal to join Summer. Our Murphy, having been through the meat grinder, is more suited to join Winter and do what must be done.

Just one possibility, but if your theory is true, I like the opportunities explanation number 4 opens up.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 23, 2017, 06:40:59 PM

I see Mirror Mirror as an opportunity for Harry to get a broader understanding of the role he has played in people's lives, possible secret knowledge that is relevant to his world, and maybe an ace-in-the-hole object of power. Wizards hoard their secrets like dragons hoard their gold.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 23, 2017, 06:56:27 PM

Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 23, 2017, 06:40:59 PM

I see Mirror Mirror as an opportunity for Harry to get a broader understanding of the role he has played in people's lives, possible secret knowledge that is relevant to his world, and maybe an ace-in-the-hole object of power. Wizards hoard their secrets like dragons hoard their gold.

I'v always liked the idea of knowledge being power in the Dresden Universe. It brings to mind a WoJ that deals with the White Council members holding back what they can really do in case it ever came to a fight and another one that deals with wizards not telling Harry certain things or correcting his misunderstandings of magic because some things should be learned and being leery of giving Harry that "power."

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 23, 2017, 10:08:11 PM

There is more to the following story than meets the eye with my theory.  See the underlined.
Mab tells Harry Fox and Scorpion Story Harry's Office

Quote

Mab tilted her dark glasses down, cat eyes on mine. "Wizard. Do you know the story of the Fox and Scorpion?"
I shook my head, looking away.
"Fox and Scorpion came to a brook," Mab murmured, her voice low, sweet. "Wide was the water. Scorpion asked Fox for a ride on his back. Fox said, 'Scorpion, will you not sting me?' Scorpion said, 'If I did, it would mean the death of us both.' Fox agreed, and Scorpion climbed onto his back. Fox swam, but halfway over, Scorpion struck with his deadly sting. Fox gasped, 'Fool, you have doomed us both. Why?' 'I am a scorpion,' said Scorpion. 'It is my nature.' "
"That's the story?" I said. "Don't quit your day job."
Mab laughed, velvet ice, and it sent another shiver through me. "You will accept this case, wizard. It is what you are. It is your nature."

In Storm Front, Murphy gets stabbed by a scorpion in the arm, blames Harry for it.
Harry, handcuffed to Murphy, has to battle the scorpion while keeping both safe.

The irony would be Mab/Murphy is reminding Harry about her time with Harry and the scorpion in Storm Front.  And, she seeks symmetry in stabbing Harry in the hand, since she was stabbed in the arm by the scorpion, and it's in her nature. Mab, in Harry's office, talk about a scorpion in "the Fox and the Scorpion" has parallels with a Murphy, in Harry's office, that talk about and fight against a scorpion.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 23, 2017, 10:18:35 PM

Mab/Murphy holds a grudge for thousands of years for something that Harry didn't do in the first place, sounds like Murphy.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 24, 2017, 01:09:50 AM

Serack's Origin of the High Sidhe
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,41109.0.html

Serack's IdHarry
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40988.0.html

Fae reproduction, life cycle and social structure
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48514.0.html

Foxed's Crazy Theory Emporium
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,43724.msg2113249.html#msg2113249
I remember when Foxed was creating some of his ideas, particularly around time travel, mirror mirror, and Harry's IdHarry and such.  There was some cross-pollination of ideas.  He actually wrote his ideas down in a nice format.  So, you can find them in above link.


I'll be reviewing the Reference Collection the next few days and placing links here of things that stand out to me.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 24, 2017, 01:56:32 AM

I've got to keep my pride and joy from 2011.
It led me to believe in an expansive time travel theory, in futuristic IdHarry, in "There You Are" hinting at Harry's return to the past either via IdHarry when unconscious or an actual character like a rerun of GP during the beginning of Masquerade.  It made me believe there was already a future, that there was a cycle near completion and near the BAT last ditch time shenanigans are set in motion to push things in one direction or another.  We are already feeling some of it, just not in the driver's seat...YET.

Quote

GS Book Club / Re: Ghost Story Book Club - Chapters 46-FINISH **MAJOR SPOILERS**
« on: August 01, 2011, 11:31:53 AM »
I just was reading Fool Moon Ch. 20 and ran across the following regarding Harry meeting his subconscious and trying to get away from him.
My double slipped around me and got in my way before I could leave teh circle of light.  "Hold it.  You really don't want to do this."  I'm tired.  I feel like shit.  I'm hurt.  And what I really dont want is to waste any more time dreaming about you."  I narrowed my eyes at my double.  "Now get out of my way."  I turned to my right and started walking toward the nearest edge of the circle.  My double slipped in front of me again, apparently without needing to cross the intervening space.  It isn't that simple, Harry.  No matter where you go, there you are."  End.
Now the above phrase "No matter where you go, there you are" is the same statement that Uriel tells Harry in Ghost Story when Harry says the following.  "Just tell me something.   Something useful.  I'll be happy with whatever I get."  He (Uriel) pursed his lips and thought about it for a moment.  Then he said, "No matter where you go, there you are." 
Ok.  Now is Uriel wanting Harry to consult this "Subconscious Harry".  It in my opinion seems that way.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 24, 2017, 05:56:02 PM

Jonas Pointed out "she be little but fierce" phrase gaining popularity with Shakespeare's Midsummer's Night Dream.
Hermia definitely sounds like Murphy at least when it comes to height issues and desire for actual combat.  We have a WOJ that Shakespeare "really doesn't know what he is talking about" but, in my opinion, still touches upon some kernel of truth.

(click to show/hide)

Quote

HERMIA
    “Lower”? Hark, again!
HERMIA
“Shorter!” See, she’s doing it again!

HELENA
Good Hermia, do not be so bitter with me.
I evermore did love you, Hermia,
Did ever keep your counsels, never wronged you—
Save that, in love unto Demetrius,
I told him of your stealth unto this wood.
He followed you. For love I followed him.
But he hath chid me hence and threatened me
To strike me, spurn me—nay, to kill me too.
And now, so you will let me quiet go,
To Athens will I bear my folly back
And follow you no further. Let me go.
You see how simple and how fond I am.
HELENA
Good Hermia, please don’t act so bitter toward me. I always loved you, Hermia, and gave you advice. I never did anything to hurt you—except once, when I told Demetrius that you planned to sneak off into this forest. And I only did that because I loved Demetrius so much. He followed you. And I followed him because I loved him. But he told me to get lost and threatened to hit me, kick me—even kill me. Now just let me go quietly back to Athens. I’ll carry my mistakes back with me. I won’t follow you anymore. Please let me go. You see how naïve and foolish I’ve been.

HERMIA
Why, get you gone! Who is ’t that hinders you?
HERMIA
Well, get out of here then! What’s keeping you?

HELENA
A foolish heart, that I leave here behind.
HELENA
My stupid heart, which I’m leaving behind here.

HERMIA
What, with Lysander?
HERMIA
What, you’re leaving it with Lysander?

HELENA
    With Demetrius.
HELENA
No, with Demetrius.

LYSANDER
Be not afraid. She shall not harm thee, Helena.
LYSANDER
Don’t be afraid. She can’t hurt you, Helena.

DEMETRIUS
(to LYSANDER)
No, sir, she shall not, though you take her part.
DEMETRIUS
(to LYSANDER) That’s right, Hermia won’t hurt Helena even if you try to help her.

HELENA
Oh, when she’s angry, she is keen and shrewd!
She was a vixen when she went to school.
And though she be but little, she is fierce.
HELENA
Oh, when you get her angry, she’s a good fighter, and vicious too. She was a hellcat in school. And she’s fierce, even though she’s little.

HERMIA
“Little” again? Nothing but “low” and “little”!—
Why will you suffer her to flout me thus?
Let me come to her.
HERMIA
“Little” again? Nothing but “little” and “short”!— Why are you letting her insult me like this? Let me at her!.

So, I think Mab's identity will play a pivotal part in the Dresden Files story.  It is hinted at in a few WOJ's already.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: peregrine on October 25, 2017, 03:40:22 AM

And that when Sanya mentions it, he also knows that Murphy is Mab and that it's a reference to Midsummer Night's Dream, but also that Shakespeare got it a little off?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: jonas on October 25, 2017, 05:32:50 AM

Quote

still touches upon some kernel of truth

Yea... she even has a love triangle with her sister like Murphy and whatshername... and Mab an Titania did that time...


You just kinda furthered mine own theory, which generally leads to a similar conclusion. the inverting of the gyre in Yeats poem is the basis of a kind of opposite mirroring of reality that happened last time(with Harry-Nico Marcone-TWC inversion) Which... should make Harry The dark spiritus mundus... though why I won't guess at here.
Nic when he first appears is basically dressed as Id Dresden with a tan trench, to invert the color scheme no doubt. Wears the hat. Is short because he forswore most of his power breaking promises upon it, argo loosing stature of importance. He made all the other choices in reverse but the similarities stayed.
Murphy is the same but with Nemesis whose mirrored with the Mab/Titania combo... also, Elaine.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 25, 2017, 01:48:00 PM

Nope peregrine, it just requires jim, a English major major with master's degree and several references to Shakespeare in woj, references to mab not being always so tall to conclude he knows where tiny but fierce comes from...Shakespeare.

And he liberally uses it to describe Murphy, which in my mind at the least further connects in a circumstantial way Murphy with stories about faeries.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: peregrine on October 25, 2017, 03:56:12 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 25, 2017, 01:48:00 PM

Nope peregrine, it just requires jim, a English major major with master's degree and several references to Shakespeare in woj, references to mab not being always so tall to conclude he knows where tiny but fierce comes from...Shakespeare.

And he liberally uses it to describe Murphy, which in my mind at the least further connects in a circumstantial way Murphy with stories about faeries.

But when he uses "There you are" in which case it's all about everyone saying it knowing that Harry is a time traveling dimension hopper, and literally everyone but Harry knows that.  Then it's all in character stuff and nothing to do with Jim as an author?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 25, 2017, 04:36:51 PM

There would be an overlay.  One reading without a time travel cycle, one with a cycle with that meaning yes.  These are future Harry's journals we are reading. Both have already happened.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: jonas on October 25, 2017, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 25, 2017, 04:36:51 PM

There would be an overlay.  One reading without a time travel cycle, one with a cycle with that meaning yes.

Yea.. his Doyalist and Watsonian often overlap in purposes.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 25, 2017, 09:29:29 PM

There is something to wrap your head around. We are reading books written in the future in first person, present-tense.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 25, 2017, 10:21:09 PM

Yeah, I think we need a thread delving into what all that entails. Particularly given he would have already written the time travel book. And, he may or may not have already written the BAT.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: jonas on October 25, 2017, 11:02:33 PM

Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 25, 2017, 09:29:29 PM

There is something to wrap your head around. We are reading books written in the future in first person, present-tense.

Here's something to Really wrap your head around, we're reading it as Harry remembers it, but not as it happens in the final timeline after MM  or in it's originality O.o MM timeline is the original unaltered timeline, or Harry is a result of his own actions going back in time to change his own actions....

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 25, 2017, 11:06:35 PM

I am going to go hug myself in the corner while rocking gently. Thank you.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 25, 2017, 11:46:31 PM

Well, you do know that Jim has it planned that in one of his books he ends up in an insane asylum.  I guess we stumbled upon why.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 26, 2017, 12:23:06 AM

Sometimes I think I draw my thoughts from outer space; then, I read something here that makes me realize that I haven't even passed the the stratosphere. It's fun!

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: jonas on October 26, 2017, 02:17:37 AM

Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 26, 2017, 12:23:06 AM

Sometimes I think I draw my thoughts from outer space; then, I read something here that makes me realize that I haven't even passed the the stratosphere. It's fun!

The line between Genius and Crazy is a fine line indeed :) fun though.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 26, 2017, 09:49:01 AM

   I usually considered the difference between genius and crazy is how much odd behavior other people will tolerate.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 01:00:44 PM

From Reddit:

Quote

CSMED: About the Mab/Murphy connection, I thought we had multiple quotes from Jim saying Murphy will not receive any kind of supernatural power up - that she stays just badass vanilla mortal. Even if it's nkt a theory I personally believe, I love the theorycraft that goes into it and I'm just curious how that is taken into account.

Quote

Raedem: Ooh, I'm glad you pointed that out. I had forgotten that WOJ. I think the woj was "Murphy already has a job, and she won't get any more powerups." I deal with that by saying, yes she already has a significant powerup; so Jim is being truthful from a point of view depending on where he stands on a timeline saying it. If Mab=Murphy, then that has already happened so, Murphy has a job and has already got her powerup even though she has yet to travel to her fate into the past. Jim is speaking faerie in the WOJ. I think the rest of your recall regarding Murphy "not receiving any kind of supernatural power up, that she stays vanilla mortal" follows from potential error in translating and perceiving his woj.

Can someone help me find the WOJ that looks like this...
"Murphy already has a job, and she won't get any more powerups."
This was a prior post I made with reference to the woj

(click to show/hide)

Quote

I do recall the bit about no more power ups. And that if she needs one, she will get a bigger gun so it sorta contradicts prior statement. 

In talking about this woj before, I mentioned that it is possible she already got a PowerUp and won't get any more.  I believe we may not be fully aware of all of her powers and Jim in some of his statements may be talking about a Murphy we haven't seen yet, i.e. a future Murphy that from that point doesn't get any more powerups.  There is also a woj- about Murphy already having a job, with that job not being clearly defined by Jim.  In addition, Jim talks about Harry's crew growing in power along with him so I don't think it is likely that Murphy's advancement dead ends.  I think Jim wants to preserve the story about Murphy, or so I hope.

My favorite Murphy advancement lies in obtaining a large mantle, preferably Mab's or something similar in power to it.  Again, I like for Murphy to be involved in a TT and/or MM story where Murphy gets lost in past assumes something and comes back to the present via the hardway (normal time) to takes steps on screen as some other character, like Mab, Titania etc.

I use Ms. Duck's theory about TT Molly going into past, participating in rise to power to come back to us as Mab.  I just twist the theory and have that focus being on Murphy instead of Molly.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: peregrine on October 26, 2017, 02:40:26 PM

It's not about her job, it's that if she needs more power, she can always find a way to get a bigger gun.

And no, being Mab is not a gun.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Cozarkian on October 26, 2017, 03:14:48 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 26, 2017, 01:00:44 PM

From Reddit:
Can someone help me find the WOJ that looks like this...
"Murphy already has a job, and she won't get any more powerups."

That WOJ was likely after the first time she touched a  sword, but it had to be before she lost her job. Since losing her job she has trained with Einherjar, which is a power up. Therefore, either JB lied, changed his mind, briefly forgot his plans for Murphy, or has a very narrow definition of powerup.

If JB's plan was to make Murphy into Man as a big reveal at the end of the series but he wasn't planning on giving her any powerups until that key moment, I can easily envision him giving that answer as truth "from a certain point of view."

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 26, 2017, 03:25:14 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 26, 2017, 01:00:44 PM

From Reddit:
Can someone help me find the WOJ that looks like this...
"Murphy already has a job, and she won't get any more powerups."

Tried finding that WoJ for you. Failed miserably. I do seem to recall reading it though which means it most likely exists.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 26, 2017, 03:26:38 PM

Quote from: Cozarkian on October 26, 2017, 03:14:48 PM

If JB's plan was to make Murphy into Man as a big reveal at the end of the series but he wasn't planning on giving her any powerups until that key moment, I can easily envision him giving that answer as truth "from a certain point of view."

I know exactly what you meant to say, but all I could think when reading your post was: Murphy into a Man, thats a huge freaking plot twist.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 03:29:58 PM

Peregrine, there are multiple woj's or at least multiple parts of the woj.
Mine is true. There is in fact a woj that "Murphy already has a job." and that "she won't get anymore powerups." Yours I recall too is true.
"If she needs more power, then she can always find a bigger gun."
So yes, there are at least two, maybe 3 woj's that comment on Murphy.

This first:
"Murphy already has a job and she won't get any more powerups." [this may be a mash up between two separate woj's but I remember watching this "Murphy already has a job" at least in a video because I recall the audience's 'surprised what' reaction. But I also distinctly remember the second part that "Murphy won't be getting any more powerups."
Then this:
"If she needs more power, then she can always find/get a bigger gun."

And then there were arguments on this forum that there was some slight contradiction between the two as having a bigger gun can indeed be construed as a powerup.  Sadly, those arguments most likely were shredded by the yearly delete monster.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 03:45:38 PM

Quote

Even though you write all these characters, have you ever had one that refused to do what you wanted it to?
No, because those people work for me.  There are times when the characters don’t seem to be going as easily in a direction I want them to go.  Often I will have to stop and take a look at what I’m doing since maybe the story has squirreled off in the wrong direction.  Which is sometimes the case and I’ll have to rewrite.  Often what I will do is I’ll go back and I’ll play Time Lord and go back and retool the character’s past to give them a good motivation to do what I want them to do.
   Murphy was continually too much in the way in Fool Moon, for example.  She kept trying to participate in what was going on and not in the adversarial way I needed her to, because she was essentially a minor villain in Fool Moon.  It was not working out at all until I went back and tinkered with her backstory and Murphy has a paralyzing fear of big dogs.  That was changing her opinions and put enough brakes on her that I could get her to slow down enough to let other people get killed instead of her.
    But it also means that she wasn’t too sure about Mouse the first time she met him.  She’s OK with him later on, because he’s a big dog that she doesn’t have to be afraid of, she trusts him despite that fear.  But that’s all under-the-table stuff that I can’t write about because Murphy is not going to go up to Dresden and say, “I’m terrified of big dogs.”  Because Dresden would make fun of her for being short and it’s not going to happen.

This is why Lea has so many hounds. The Murphy in Mab/Murphy is scared of big dogs.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 03:54:32 PM

http://griddaily.com/jim-butcher-qa

Quote

Q: Whenever Harry’s had a relationship it hasn’t worked out.  Is there something big coming?
A: When you say ‘something big’, do you mean that in a positive sense, or…?  Yeah there’s something big coming….poor Murphy…

https://twitter.com/longshotauthor/status/621483946556162053?lang=en
I hope something big drags her back in time, or fakes her death and does so. Ooh, that will be great :).

Quote

@longshotauthor what part of peace talks are you writing RIGHT NOW!
@BigBentley15 Murphy's funeral.

Quote

Will we see Mrs. Murphy again?
Maybe?  Maybe.  We’ll have to see.  That might work out.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 04:24:48 PM

An interesting note, not necessarily germane to Murphy but I like it anyway.

Quote

What kind of magic does Chandler specialize in?
Chandler does a lot of Divination, and a lot of stuff that is involved with time.  Which puts him in a very finicky spot, a very high profile spot on the council.  It's one reason why he's a Warden where they can keep an eye on him.  He can actually do things to screw with the flow of time and look back in time and find things out, and occasionally to look forward in time and see things.  Although that's very unreliable because of the whole free will nonsense.  He's an information gatherer for the most part.  He's not as much of a punch you in the face type, but he's really really useful which is why he has got a lot of status among the young wardens.  He's got access to what the old wizards think is valuable, which is information. 
(Jim also says here that Chandler's hat and bowler look is based off of John Steed of the 1960's British Avengers show)

This is Second Arsith proposing that Chandler may accompany Harry on time traveling trip, and that Chandler may be the imprisoned British guy in Demonreach. Here is the explanation.

Quote

Quote from: Second Aristh on July 10, 2016, 04:00:36 PM
This is one of the more interesting new WoJ from yesterday.  It's only fitting that the most British character in the DV so far is associated with time magic.  In hindsight, we could have probably guessed this based off Doctor Who, Big Ben, and Jim's sense of irony. 
So, based on this I'm going to make a WAG that Chandler will be Harry's companion/sidekick in the time travel book (crosses fingers in the hopes that it's titled Second Chance).  While we're at it, it seems that Chandler as the British prisoner in Demonreach is a valid possibility as well if Chandler needed to wait out some time shenanigans.

Am I the only one that didn't realize that Chandler was part of the young faction of wardens?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 04:26:52 PM

Mab's identity hidden behind a mask?

Quote

You’ve introduced a couple characters that wear different faces and show up, and it’s not always easy to tell that they’re the same person such as Odin/Vadderung/Kringle.  Are there other characters that you haven’t yet revealed that are wearing multiple faces that we have already seen multiple times?
I’m shocked that you would suspect such a thing of me sir!  *I’m not gonna tell you*
Those are pretty much scattered all over the Dresden Files cosmos.  You’ll see more as we go.  There are a lot of characters that are there right now that aren’t who you think they are.  We’ll have to see how it turns out, though.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 04:30:13 PM

Quote

In several books he’s been pierced with iron and it seems as if the mantle goes away but doesn’t actually.  He’s in incredible pain because he’s been beaten up, but with long term exposure would his back go back to being normal?
Well, somebody asked something similar a couple of nights ago.  They pointed out that when Harry crossed Mab and Mab took the mantle away from him when he broke Winter Law that his back collapsed too, but his back didn’t collapse when he got pierced by iron.  And I looked at him, and I said, “You’re right.  That seems like an inconsistency.  Like someone is lying or doesn’t understand the exact situation of things or something like that.”  Then I said to him what I said to you, next question.

This occurred in the presence of Murphy.  Mab viewing things through the eyes of Murphy?  It should be noticed that as soon as Murphy and friends touched Harry to help him up, the Mab gave him the mantle back.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: jonas on October 26, 2017, 04:35:56 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 26, 2017, 03:45:38 PM

This is why Lea has so many hounds. The Murphy in Mab/Murphy is scared of big dogs.

Erm? Lol, that's a good point for entirely other reasons.... I think Lea's scared of Murphy's judgement. She already had a tendency of shooting, Damning or otherwise pushing the perspective that rules the day(Butters in SG and Harry in WN to name a couple) even before Mab let Murphy Decide the day vs Maeve. I think people who have done wrong that even they can recognize have more to fear from Murphy than Harry.... and I think Lea, with all her 'be wary even of your protector' may have overstepped her bounds in insuring Harry had a Wintery upbringing, by killing Malcom O.o

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 04:37:57 PM

"Murphy's still undergoing surgeries (plural) and so on to get fixed because when you get hurt like that, it takes a long time to get better. When you're not some kind of superhuman, "I work for Queen Mab" " Peace Talks only occurs a couple months after Skin Game.  Murphy and Harry may/may not have had much time to have lots of sex given her condition.

Quote

Q: Cool, I think a lot of us will be excited to read that then. What, if any, tease can you give us for Peace Talks?
A: Peace Talks is all about the various signatories of the Unseelie Accords are having a convocation in Chicago to try and work out a way to settle down all the discord that's been happening due to the Fomor seizing power in the vacuum left behind by the Red Court. So, I believe what's going to happen is they're all going to get together, they'll have a nice dinner, they'll hash things out, and then have a coupla beers and sing some songs, and everything will be FINE. Cause, you know, I want to surprise everybody. Everybody's just looking for it to explode, and so on. This book is only set a couple of months after the end of the previous one [Skin Game], so, you know, Murphy's still undergoing surgeries and so on to get fixed because when you get hurt like that, it takes a long time to get better. When you're not some kind of superhuman, "I work for Queen Mab", living punching bag... Let's see, we'll get to see a lot of, more of Harry and Maggie; Mouse will be in this one, we'll get to see the White Council getting involved with things again, so we'll have them on stage.

Jim just can't constrain himself from including references to Mab when talking about Murphy. And again that "you know" reference at the end of "I was mortal once, you know" answer Mab tells Harry in response to Harry asking her if it was hard to kill Maeve.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 04:50:20 PM

Quote

WHERE DID YOU GET THE INSPIRATION FOR BOB ?
The inspiration from Bob mostly came from me wanting to […] my teacher's notes.  I told her - after I'd written the first series of the DF - or the first chapter of the first book - she read the chapter and said - Well, I think you've done it!   I said "What?!"  She said this is sellable.  I think this will sell.  What are you planning for next?  And I'm like uh -uh - he's got to go talk to his - I've got to give him this assistant so that when the cops are around they'll be the dummies that he can explain things to - cause that's one of the principles of writing - it's the joy of idiocy - you always keep one dummy around to ask questions and have things explained to him and that's how you get the information to the reader in a more entertaining fashion.
So sometimes Murphy will be the dummy and then when there's something that Dresden needs to know he can go to this more nerdy assistant and the assistant will be the dummy - errr - and he'll be the dummy and the assistant will be the smart guy.  And she's [i e his teacher] like okay - that works.  Just dont make him a talking head.

This is confirmation that Murphy would often lead Harry with questions, Harry answers them. This was how Harry started writing his books. It was one tool he used in his toolbox.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 04:52:29 PM

I finally found something resembling the woj I recalled. This isn't it though but it's close.

Jim Butcher Atlanta, GA 2011 signing.
Part of Part 4 through the end of the Q and A.

Quote

If it’s not a spoiler, what’s Murphy doing for a paycheck these days?
Well, if you stop and think about it, I’m sure it will occur to you. Of course, she didn’t talk about it with Dresden.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 04:55:16 PM

Quote

PR: Now, in terms of your plotting, it's one of the things that I'm terribly jealous of, because I'm comfortable with my world-building and other elements of my writing, but there are a couple things that you do that just so thoroughly out-class me, and one of them is the plotting, where you write these books that have, in themselves, great, very tight, very satisfying plots, but it's not like a sit-com. With a lot of series, you have the rise, and the fall, and the action, and then at the end of it, it's like the Simpsons - nothing is ever going to change in any permanent way. But in your books, you break that tradition in the episodic fantasy. How do you do that?! Teach me!
JB: Okay, basically, when I think of a book, what I'm actually writing is, like, Harry Dresden's worst weekend of the year that year. That's pretty much what I've got in mind. And then, to do that, I've got to figure out what are going to be awful things I'm going to have happen to him, what are going to be the cool things that I'm going to get to do within the story, and then after I put that all together, then I spend a lot of time between the books thinking, “okay, what's going to be the fallout from what's happened?” That's one of the things I've always taken to heart very seriously, is that actions have consequences, and choices have consequences, and you've got to live with them. So for Dresden, that's one of the fun things to do is to stop and think about,  “okay, now, this is what's been going on for the past six months, or eight months, or nine months, in the the Dresden universe. How is everybody who's actually in this book, how do they experience that?” Everyone has a slightly different experience based on who they are and what they bring to their point of view within the story. You know, Murphy experiences the world very differently from Dresden, very differently from Dresden's brother Thomas, and so on. It's mostly just a matter of sitting down and thinking it out, and figuring out, “how do they experience this? What kind of spin can I put on it that's going to make it a fun part of the story?”Murphy mostly gets crap at work as fallout from her stuff, but I killed Dresden at the end of Changes, so everybody had to sort of look around and suddenly realize “oh my gosh! Somebody shot the sheriff.” Who's going to be the one who's going to step into his boots, and nobody can, so we've all got to.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 05:35:35 PM

Quote

? Crazy-theory-discussion... WOJ: You've previously said that the Sidhe and Mab came from origins like Toot Toot and kind of took on responsibility and grew.  You've also said that every single Fae have come from mortal origins like changelings and Scions and stuff.  Could you reconcile these two apparently contradictory origins?
I could but I won't sing song I'm not gonna tell you.*  The Sidhe were created for a reason though.  They were created specifically by certain agents who no longer had as much influence on the world as they once did.  I've hinted at that in some previous books and I'll leave it at that and I'll leave the rest to you.  That's perfectly enough material to come up with fan crack theory.  And fan crack theory is awesome.   I love reading fan crack theory.  I will go through occasionally and look at the crack theory boards, and it's like excellent.    And occasionally its like 'ooh that's actually better than what I had planned..."(edited)

This is Jim expressing his appreciation of fan crack theory. He loves reading it. Some of it is excellent.  And occasionally, he likes it better than what he had planned. He says so.  So we thank those of you on the forum that have allowed the more creative, maybe unshackled too, amongst us to indulge in our *crack* theories. Understand that as *crack* as they are, Jim likes reading them it seems.  I'm sure it's entertaining to him seeing either how close we come or how far off we are to what he has planned.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 08:31:21 PM

This is an excerpt of when Harry in Cold Days says "Screw Winter Law" and loses all access to the mantle as a result.  Take note that Mab gave Harry back access to the mantle after Thomas, Butter, Murphy, Molly touched and helped Harry up but before he said "Maybe we won't screw Winter Law." I underlined two of the potentially important people where there may exist a coincidence in this situation.  Also, it seems either via the mantle or within the room, Mab has Harry under surveillance.

(click to show/hide)

Quote

“Well,” I said, starting toward Hook. “I never signed on to that treaty. So screw Winter Law—”

And abruptly, as if someone had just slammed a row of staples into my skin, the mantle of the Winter Knight vanished completely. Pain soared back into my body, inflamed tissue crying out, my bruises throbbing, the edemas beneath my skin pounding with a horrible tightness. Fatigue hit me like a truck. The sensations were so intense, the only way I could tell that I had fallen to the floor was by looking.
And my body abruptly went numb and useless from my stomach down.

That scared the hell out of me and confirmed one of my worst fears. When I’d consented to serve Mab, my back had been broken, my spine damaged. Taking up the mantle had covered what would probably have been a crippling and long-term injury. But without it, my body was only mortal. Better than most at recovering over time, but still human. Without the mantle, I wouldn’t have legs, bladder or bowel control, or, most important, independence.

I was on the ground like that for a subjective week, but it could have been only a few seconds before Thomas reached my side, with Murphy, Butters, and Molly right behind him. I knew they were there because I could see them, but their voices swam down to me from what seemed like a great distance among the cacophony of raking sensations scouring my nervous system. They lifted me to a sitting position—and then abruptly the pain was gone, and my legs started moving again, jerking in a single, gentle spasm. The mantle had been restored. “Okay,” I said in a ragged voice. “Uh. Maybe we won’t screw Winter Law.”

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 26, 2017, 09:20:17 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 26, 2017, 08:31:21 PM

This is an excerpt of when Harry in Cold Days says "Screw Winter Law" and loses all access to the mantle as a result.  Take note that Mab gave Harry back access to the mantle after Thomas, Butter, Murphy, Molly touched and helped Harry up but before he said "Maybe we won't screw Winter Law." I underlined two of the potentially important people where there may exist a coincidence in this situation.  Also, it seems either via the mantle or within the room, Mab has Harry under surveillance.

I don't know if Mab necessarily has Harry under surveillance. Consequence of breaking Winter Law could be inherent in the Mantle. Kind of like in the short story Cold Case:

(click to show/hide)

when Molly was told by Mab to "turn her attention to the outer gates" and the knowledge popped into her head. I believe it also happened when she turned her attention to what the tribute was and the answer came to her

I think some things are just inherent to the Mantle.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 26, 2017, 09:29:21 PM

You are right. I just wanted to include that it occurred in the presence of Murphy.

Harry compares Murphy to a Valkyrie.

Quote

Murphy didn't look like a monster-hunting Valkyrie. Murphy looked like someone's kid sister. She was five nothing, a hundred and nothing, and was built like an athlete, all springy muscle. Her blond hair hung down over her blue eyes, and was cut close in back.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 08:01:27 AM

Gard commented that she had the hair color for it.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 27, 2017, 01:28:56 PM

Yeah, right now it's much less complicated for Murphy to turn out to be a Valkyrie than for her to ascend to be Mab in the past.  I assume she could still assume Mab in the future or alternate reality, but there'd have to be a special case where either Molly gets out of the mantle, is prevented from obtaining Queen mantle, or she jumps to Mother Winter after both Mother and Mab dies.

There is a WOJ about Mother Winter and if she didn't have warts and all, that that would be bad.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 28, 2017, 12:38:33 AM

Yeah, Molly does have first dibs at being Mab.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 28, 2017, 08:39:23 PM

This is an excellent write up on the Fae by Serack.  If Mab ends up Murphy, or vice versa it is germane to this thread.  And if not, it will need to be preserved in the transfer and this thread will be a priority for me to transfer all of it over.

Reference: Fae reproduction, life cycle and social structure
http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,48514.0.html

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 28, 2017, 08:42:40 PM

I remember that from last year. Definitely a keeper.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 28, 2017, 09:23:59 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 28, 2017, 08:41:17 PM

Ok, I have a problem with this WOJ. Many theories are based off the belief that Jim agreed with what the questioner posed, namely that the "Sidhe and Mab came from origins like Toot Toot" or more particularly that "Mab came from origins like Toot Toot."  The issue with that is Jim never said this in this WOJ, he never exactly said that in the WOJ that is similar to this.  We only assume Jim agreed with the Mab was Toot Toot size, which we know is contradicted both by Mab was human once, and that the original Mab participated in an event along with other Queens to establish their base of power using the Stone Table.  It is our faulty assumption that assumed Mab was ever Toot Toot size.

Other pertinent WOJ's that tie into argument.
Sidhe having Toot Toot like origins in general is correct.

Again, Toot gets big from influence in the world similar to the sidhe. Jim mentions Mab wasn't always as big as she is now. (I distinctly remember a smiley face here for some reason) Anyways, this is where people jump to the conclusion that Mab was a tiny fairie as Shakespeare once described. It's a faulty assumption.  We now have WOJ- that says "Shakespeare didn't know what he was talking about." This was a general statement by Jim so not specific to any one thing but I think we can safely assume Shakespeare didn't accurately depict the nature of Faerie.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 28, 2017, 09:25:11 PM

Read this, I included it above.
Again, Toot gets big from influence in the world similar to the sidhe. Jim mentions Mab wasn't always as big as she is now. (I distinctly remember a smiley face here for some reason) Anyways, this is where people jump to the conclusion that Mab was a tiny fairie as Shakespeare once described. It's a faulty assumption.  We now have WOJ- that says "Shakespeare didn't know what he was talking about." This was a general statement by Jim so not specific to any one thing but I think we can safely assume Shakespeare didn't accurately depict the nature of Faerie.
Quote
Q:  How big will Toot get?
A:  Depends on how much influence he has in the world.  That’s how the sidhe gain their size and power.  Mab wasn’t always as big as she is now.

I have more to say regarding your reply.  I'll add it here...
Quote
The Queens seem to be seperate from the rest of the Fae. Even the Erlking seems more closely related to other Fae than the Queens
There is one WOJ that pertains to this. Let me get it. It has humans being the origin of most of the Fae.
Quote
WOJ: Ok, do they automatically become Fae, do they lose their soul? The answer to that question is “sort of”. Um, it’s automatic, but not necessarily instant. Mab herself was human once, and she eventually became the, uh, the fun-loving Mab that we all know. So, a lot of it has to do with who you are when you go into it, because most of the Fae were human once. A lot were born as half-bloods and decided to become Fae and sort of automatically got their mantle for free, but all the other fae who were there, including the Erl and several others, who were at one point humans….So, a lot of this is going to depend on who they  might end up being, a lot of it depends on who they are going into it and what kind of will they have to maintain who they are. That’s going to be a big deal. I’m really looking forward to writing the next books so I can see what happens with Molly, ‘cause I’m really not sure yet, I have a vague idea of what’s gonna happen, because basically she just got handed the largest, unruliest crowd of little brothers and sisters to deal with ever.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 28, 2017, 09:25:53 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 28, 2017, 09:15:57 PM

You are referring to this WOJ somewhat.

Yes, if Mab=Murphy true then Jim may be giving a clue to us, with ironic humor, that Mab's identity was a short/small one, aka Tiny. Some then didn't get the 'clue' and believed he meant Mab was Toot Toot like, I took it as a reference to Murphy instead. I like your explanation of how Murphy would grow in size. I view it, in combination with your explanation, as the Queen mantle altering Murphy's genetics, biology, to make her in fact the Mab archetype.  It's sort of how Summer Lady mantle morphs Lily into looking like Aurora.

So, it could also explain why Maeve and Sarissa wouldn't look like Murphy necessarily. Murphy would have already been Mab 750+ years for the mantle to shape her genetics, biology. So her kids would look very close to an archetype of a Faerie Princess with the caveat that they had a mortal father.  Therefore, her kids (Sarissa and Maeve) when they chose and while wielding a mantle wouldn't change so much in appearance as they had very strong exposure to Fae genetics.

Crap, I have to move this over to Mab/Ironies. Move discussion over there please.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 28, 2017, 09:53:32 PM

How does Murphy go over a thousand years into the past?  How does she find herself in a situation where she has enough Fae connection to assume a Queen Mantle? How does she skip over being Lady or does she? Does this tie into the twitter comment about him writing "Murphy's funeral?" These are questions that would need answers to proceed from point A which is Murphy's present situation to point B which is the main point of your theory. 
                   Murphy _____________________________>
                  B    _____________________________________>
                      /     Mab                                                         \
                    A  ---------------------------------------------------------------
                         <  Murphy
                  I sort of temporal loop in which Mab and Murphy intertwine due to interactions.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Firnatine34 on October 29, 2017, 12:26:19 AM

Not to derail off topic (Good heavens no.) But seeing as this is very heavy on Mab's timeline or potential timeline, I gotta ask a couple questions. I think I remember the answers, but if I'm even close to right, it brings up another important consideration.

When did Mab move from Lady to Queen?

When were Maeve and Sarissa born?

When did Maeve become Lady?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 29, 2017, 12:29:20 AM

Ok, YAY. I get to try to guess at things.

Baseline before I get started.
First off, I allow for there to be an original 'ourMab' that isn't Murphy first off. I heavily rely on iterations and recursions in allowing for time loops that are identical but then have a slight error that propagate from there. So an insertion of Murphy would be a 'error' though the loop would still be quite similar. Perhaps, we wouldn't know in all loops that Mab=Murphy, maybe we do run across a loop where it's the orginal or and error of an error. So, It's left to some extent as an open question. Thought I do believe we will learn some Mab's real name.

Quote

How does Murphy go over a thousand years into the past?

This is hard as it has many possibilities.
1) Time Travel sponsored by Archangel, Mother level entity, Mab level entity, Lady level entity, Wizard (w/Harry?)
2) Time Travel near Demonreach, it most likely has eddies near it that go both forward and backward in time as a result of its creation in 5 times all at once.
3) Murphy say at a Family Reunion that gets transported into the distant past (think Milwaukee disappearing in 1994)
4) Murphy tags along with Sue in TT event.

Quote

How does she find herself in a situation where she has enough Fae connection to assume a Queen Mantle?

1) We don't know if she does/doesn't have fae roots. Molly was several generations distant and needed 'rehab' to make her into vessel.
2) She has been at Arctis Tor, been in NN, fought several Fae, killed them, killed Winter Lady, trains with Einherjar whose Lord has a Mask of a Fae King (Kringle), knows that Immortals can be killed on Halloween, knows that Molly was shaped into a vessel for Lady...

Quote

How does she skip over being Lady or does she?

1) Theory allows Murphy to become Mab in future without TT (Molly would have to give up mantle or ascend to Mother)
2) Mab=Murphy requires Murphy to TT into past remaining childless as she does so and take out a Winter Lady, or be near one when one dies.
3) She would need to be a better vessel than other potential candidates nearby in the case the Winter Lady 1000++ years ago died.
4) It would need to be during a conjunction or circumstance similar to Halloween, etc.
5) She would need to acquire Lea as her handmaiden

Quote

Does this tie into the twitter comment about him writing "Murphy's funeral?"

My guess, Harry and Murphy talk about marriage, therefore "Murphy's funeral" is talked about.
Or, there is WOJ that Harry's relationship don't work out that well, and Jim's answer was like, Yeah, so there will be a reason why Harry/Murphy won't work out, yet.
My favorite would be for her to get picked up by say Mother Winter and thrown into the past. Or, some Fae set out to avenge a perceived insult to Mab for Murphy capturing Harry's heart. And then she gets secretly carried away to appear later down the line. ETC.
I just don't know if it's too soon for Murphy to be out of the picture.

See this post, It has similar thoughts:
http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50304.msg2292401.html#msg2292401

Quote

Excerpt:So, Murphy would be Winter Lady, for how long I don't know (WOJ our Mab as a Winter Lady chose Lea to be her handmaiden).  Her appearance would have to already begun to shift.  And, then some sudden set of events that aligned with the last time things got awful in the wizarding world, it ended with at least both Mab and Titania dying, who else we don't know, which allowed our Mab, our Titania to assume the mantle of Queen roughly around the time of the Battle of Hastings.  Around that time, Mab and Titania stop speaking.  Give us 1000+ years and I don't think we can assume we would be able to identify that Murphy that had been Mab for 1000+ years is our Murphy.  They'd look totally different.  So, that is one thing my theory counts on, a mask for Queen Mab that camouflages her identity, which will stun us when it is revealed.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 29, 2017, 07:46:12 AM

Wow, I wasn't expecting immediate answers; just questions to mull over. Now, I gotta do some thinking.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 29, 2017, 01:22:33 PM

Quote from: Firnatine34 on October 29, 2017, 12:26:19 AM

Not to derail off topic (Good heavens no.) But seeing as this is very heavy on Mab's timeline or potential timeline, I gotta ask a couple questions. I think I remember the answers, but if I'm even close to right, it brings up another important consideration.
When did Mab move from Lady to Queen?
When were Maeve and Sarissa born?
When did Maeve become Lady?

See this Post as it answer much of what you ask.
http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50304.msg2292401.html#msg2292401

Quote

When did Mab move from Lady to Queen?

Around the time of the Battle of Hastings, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hastings
Mab is 1000+ years old.
I believe ourMab is the one who took over control of the Outergates for Winter.  There is woj that Mab had to go into debt to pull together the resources in this takeover. It was these debts she was paying off that eventually led to her paying off the debt she owed Nicodemus.

Quote

No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous.  They're a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close.

Quote

When were Maeve and Sarissa born?

I'd say somewhere between 1760-1790 at the earliest, this matches the birth and death of Mozart. So their birth with him being the father would be skewed somewhere to 1780's.  We don't know exactly how old they are. We just know they were born to an Austrian composer.

Quote

When did Maeve become Lady?

Prior to 1850.  We have woj that Molly has a backlog of 150 years of jobs to do. That would suggest Maeve hadn't been doing some of what she was suppose to for 150 years.

Quote

Can we get a break down of the biological relationships between the various Fae Queens we have seen on screen? Of particular interest - Maeve and Sarissa, were they actually Mab's kids (biological sense)? If so, who was Mab's baby daddy?
Mab and Titania are actual twin sisters.
Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.
I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous.  They're a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close

.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 29, 2017, 02:06:59 PM

Hey wardenferry:

4) Murphy tags along with Sue/? in TT event.
There is WOJ on Sue:
Q Are we ever going to see Sue again?
A: Yes. But it might be a while.

I like this because Sue is millions of years old. She has metaphysical mass. If she is used in Time Travel, it could explain how some of the juice needed to go pack into the past gets paid. Also, it can allow some characters of ours, to include Bonnie, to venture very far back into the past and become something.
Bonnie becomes prehistoric origin of the Archive and brings some more modern literature "shakespeare, scarecrow, movies, etc) into the distant past where it becomes the basis for the forms of the faeries, their speech, etc.
Murphy becomes Mab, Mister accompanies her.
Mother Murphy goes further into past to become a Mother Winter.
ETC.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 29, 2017, 09:38:08 PM

Mister becomes Cat Sith?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 29, 2017, 11:10:43 PM

Maybe. I actually prefer mister going further back then that though.  Him being some progenitor of why the fae have catlike eyes, that far back.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 29, 2017, 11:37:21 PM

Mister, cave-cat of the Fae.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 30, 2017, 01:30:25 AM

Gosh, This Serack guy, whoever he is, writes really good OP's on topics germane to this thread, though not because of the Murphy part dang it :)
Thank You, Serack.
http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,48717.msg2258880.html#msg2258880

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 08:42:23 AM

Yeah, he usually has some good ideas going. He doesn't post as often as he used to. Seems to be a common theme around here.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 01:49:24 PM

Quote from: raidem on October 29, 2017, 12:29:20 AM

How does she find herself in a situation where she has enough Fae connection to assume a Queen Mantle?

1) We don't know if she does/doesn't have fae roots. Molly was several generations distant and needed 'rehab' to make her into vessel.
2) She has been at Arctis Tor, been in NN, fought several Fae, killed them, killed Winter Lady, trains with Einherjar whose Lord has a Mask of a Fae King (Kringle), knows that Immortals can be killed on Halloween, knows that Molly was shaped into a vessel for Lady...

Also worth pointing out that close association with Winter is a big part of preparing an individual for a queen mantle. Per Cold Days:

Quote

There was one other person there who had been spending time with a powerful fae.

Who had a relationship with one that was deeper and more significant than a casual or formal acquaintance.

Whose life had been methodically, deliberately, and covertly reshaped for the purpose.

Who had been extensively prepared by one of the Sidhe.

Harry is a part of Winter now. He has already spent a lot of time with Murphy and will presumably be spending a lot more in the near future (some of it pretty intimate). He has been training her and shaping her since they first met. Arguably, all that is left is some deliberate preparation by a Sidhe. That may happen in the past during the events that lead to the vacancy in the Winter Courts.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 01:56:31 PM

Who, other than Murphy, among Harry's crew has the strongest connections to Fae without being a Fae. My guess is Will the Apha since he almost married one.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 02:02:02 PM

Are we putting aside Molly as well? She is the Winter Lady and has a strong connection to Fae. Do Toot-Toot and Lacuna count? If not them, I would go with Thomas. Not only is he a son of Maggie La Fey, he also faced down Lea with Harry, took part in the raid on Arctis Tor, and was present on Demonreach in Cold Days.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 02:17:28 PM

Can a WCV become Fae? What do you think of the idea that every supernatural being: Fae, dragons, vampires, gods, werewolves, and Fomor are actually rooted in Outsiders that have been altered by our reality and diluted by time and generations? It is just a notion I have been toying with.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 02:37:12 PM

Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 02:17:28 PM

Can a WCV become Fae? What do you think of the idea that every supernatural being: Fae, dragons, vampires, gods, werewolves, and Fomor are actually rooted in Outsiders that have been altered by our reality and diluted by time and generations? It is just a notion I have been toying with.

We know that Thomas could take up the Winter Knight Mantle because Mab said she would target him after Harry. That makes me think that he could take up any mantle associated with either winter or summer (Kringle for instance) regardless of whether becoming a Fae is an effect or not. I have no idea how the transformation to Fae would affect his demon. Would it disappear, remain unchanged, or morph into something else as well? Only Mr. Butcher would truly know.

I do like your theory that the supernatural community is somehow rooted in Outsiders. Maybe a segment of outsiders fled to our world in the very distant past to escape and set up the gate to keep the rest of the outsiders out. Over time they morphed into the beings we know now.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 02:43:28 PM

Escape could be one option. My preferred option is that the dreams of mortals drew these outsiders to us like a beacon of curiousity.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 02:51:25 PM

And then they changed form based on our dreams?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 30, 2017, 02:54:36 PM

Nah, woj strongly suggests outsiders strictly from other universe, not ours.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 03:09:37 PM

Not arguing that point at all. Just wondering what if they came before and represent the origin of all the current supernatural forces.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on October 31, 2017, 04:17:34 PM

Two others post on Reddit.

Quote

I understood it was a cross-dimensional plot, involving alternate worlds, not future and past versions of the same world.

Quote

Mirror Mirror does not involve time travel.

My post on Reddit.

Quote

Cross-time is a early name for travel between alternate realites, (alternate histories), a sub-type of time travel according to wikipedia on time travel.
Since the 1950s, this type of fiction has, to a large extent, merged with science fiction tropes involving time travel between alternate histories, psychic awareness of the existence of one universe by the people in another, or time travel that results in history splitting into two or more timelines. Cross-time, time-splitting, and alternate history themes have become so closely interwoven that it is impossible to discuss them fully apart from one another.
We know there will be a book on Time travel per Harry later in the Case Files, so again this verifies the "impossible to discuss them [time travel, alternate history] fully apart from one another." In addition, there have been mathematicians that describe the type of mathematics that would be at play in such a universe that allows what has been described as existing in the Dresdenverse, (time travel, travel between parallel realities, etc) that mathematics requires further TEMPORAL factors in addition to the time factor we are use to. So, there would be in fact a temporal travel at play, but one not "time" as defined by ours.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: jonas on November 01, 2017, 06:44:05 PM

Quote from: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 02:51:25 PM

And then they changed form based on our dreams?

"outside" or beyond reality has always been a thing, in olden days Jotunheim was considered outside reality ::)
the current outsiders directly draw upon Lovecraftian form, because that's the greatest thought connected to outside reality in this day and age.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 01, 2017, 09:45:42 PM

Maybe the Never-never is similar to Lovecraft's Dreamlands?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Rasins on November 02, 2017, 03:13:19 PM

Quote from: wardenferry419 on November 01, 2017, 09:45:42 PM

Maybe the Never-never is similar to Lovecraft's Dreamlands?

I think it contains them.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on November 11, 2017, 12:30:17 AM

Murphy threatens jokingly to choke Harry in SF.  Mab later smothers Harry with a pillow.

Quote

“Gosh, you’re cute when you’re angry,” I responded.
Her eyes narrowed dangerously.
“It makes your little button nose all pink and your eyes get bloodshot and even bluer.”
“Did you have any last words, Dresden, or should I just choke you now?”

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 11, 2017, 12:40:35 AM

You know, both women (Murphy and Mab) are often very irritated with Harry. Annnd..., now I am stepping away from Raidem's abyss very slowly.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Talby16 on November 11, 2017, 07:02:54 PM

I think drawing a link between something Murphy says in the heat of the moment to something Mab later does to Harry is tenuous.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 11, 2017, 08:43:08 PM

Yep, Harry is the type of person to get threats of strangulation on a daily basis.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Rasins on November 14, 2017, 06:06:19 PM

Hasn't Murphy placed Harry in a choke hold before?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Kindler on November 14, 2017, 06:31:13 PM

Quote from: Rasins on November 14, 2017, 06:06:19 PM

Hasn't Murphy placed Harry in a choke hold before?

Man, who hasn't?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 14, 2017, 08:24:14 PM

Justine?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: Kindler on November 14, 2017, 09:00:00 PM

Quote from: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 02:43:28 PM

Escape could be one option. My preferred option is that the dreams of mortals drew these outsiders to us like a beacon of curiousity.

I missed this earlier. Harry's conversation with He Who Walks Behind seems to indicate that Outsiders used to own this universe, if not this reality:

Quote

"This isn't your world," I whispered.
"Not now," He Who Walks Behind murmured, its smile widening. "But it will be ours again in just a little time."
-Ghost Story, page 300 on Nook. Emphasis added.

If he is to be believed, "again" means "once more," ergo Outsiders used to be here in greater numbers and were the top dogs, before something banished them. Now they're trying to get back in and back on top.

So... did they run things when mortals were here? Were they banished by mortal magic, and is that why only mortal magic can summon them? Did TWG send them packing? Are we talking about primordial soup time, or just pre-Kadesh Hittite Empire times? Do they predate the planet? Or is this a situation where the Outside and the Inside used to be one big place, and the Big Powers That Be created the multiverse with Gates to keep them out as a separate space from them?

From their description, I have zero trouble believing that they're the same set of Outsiders that were previously kicked out of reality; time is just a flat circle from the Outside, to borrow a quote from True Detective's good season, so it's not like they'd necessarily experience it linearly.

Anyway, the Outsiders' nature is very, very interesting to me. Personally, I'm waiting for Harry to call the next one Ponyboy or Sodapop.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: jonas on November 14, 2017, 09:06:44 PM

Quote from: wardenferry419 on November 14, 2017, 08:24:14 PM

Justine?

Didn't she yea when she threatened him in GP to save Thomas?

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 14, 2017, 10:11:30 PM

I forgot that one.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on January 17, 2018, 09:48:13 PM

This is a thread on Queen Succession Rules.  It touches on a case in which all three Queen mantles are up for grabs simultaneously. (For the past, the focus is on Summer as Mother Summer abdicated at one point which may coincide when or around the time both Mab and Titania die).  It also delves into the rules regarding when exactly the Lady mantle is destroyed by the Lady.  It coincided per Mab with the Lady "becoming a mother".  This in my view is defined as having given birth. Therefore I believe it is theoretically possible for the Lady to conceive but just not give birth and the Lady mantle remains safe. 

http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50745.0.html

The following thread is an approach where I ask people to disprove particular theories using in book text. WOJ may be used to support arguments too but should be used warily as Jim can be crafty, imprecise, mistaken or we the same etc when citing them.  The main theory to disprove that I put forward is the Murphy=Mab theory.  The other theory put forward so far is the Simon=Cowl theory.

http://www.paranetonline.com/index.php/topic,50739.0.html

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on February 01, 2018, 06:19:15 PM

Quote

For just a fraction of a second, Maeve’s smug exterior changed, becoming graver, more somber. In that instant, she and Lily looked as though they might have been fraternal twins. “With absolute certainty.”

I'm thinking the Queen mantles are to be considered 'twins' which may allow Jim's WOJ about Mab and Titania being 'actual twin sisters' being less restrictive than thought as it comes to the possibility that Murphy may TT into the past to become a Winter Lady, and then assume the Mab mantle.  Or, same argument could be used for Molly.

(included in another thread)

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on July 01, 2018, 10:43:37 PM

This is a post on Reddit, not my own theory.  I ran across it and found it very interesting. It basically says that Harry has fulfilled one of the conditions of becoming Mab by giving birth to Bonnie.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/8ss4rl/dresden_and_mabs_future_series_and_cold_case/

Quote

"You? The new Summer Lady?"
Lilly flushed prettily and nodded.
"I know. I didn't want it, but when Aurora died, the power flowed to the nearest Summer vessel. Usually it would be one of the other Queens, but I had the Knight's power, and it just sort of...plopped in there."

Sooo....we know from Cold Case that at least the Winter Lady's mantle stops from getting pregnant, because she has to remain a Maiden to be the Lady. If she became a mother, she would be the Queen. We also know that the Queens' mantles can transfer to someone holding the Knight's mantle if another Queen isn't around to grab it. We ALSO know that Mab was mortal once ("I was mortal once."), so the Queen's mantle can transfer to a mortal.

I think it's safe to say that Mab is probably going to die during the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. She's been both built up as a terrifying force and humanized, so narratively this would go a great deal towards showing the scope of the threat and creating drama.

If the Winter Queen must be a mother, and holding the Knight's mantle is enough to qualify you as a vessel, then let's consider for a moment that Harry Dresden is the Winter Knight, he has been raised and trained by Fey for most of his life, and he just gave birth. Yes, Bonnie is a spirit entity, but in the Nevernever that probably counts for more than birthing a real child. Also, being a Starborn and a powerful wizard in his own right could be the edge that the Winter Queen needs to finally tip the scales and push the invasion back.

So that's one of my predictions for the BAT. Queen Harry standing alongside the Knights of the Cross (Butters, Sanya, and Marcone) and Demonreach's denizens against the Outsiders.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on July 01, 2018, 10:46:52 PM

My responses and additions supporting a potential
Harry: Queen of the Faeries.
This is my reply to the Reddit poster:

(click to show/hide)

That is an awesome theory. Congrats.
In Babylon 5, we encounter a plot line around "the One" which ends up not just one individual but three individuals. These individuals are two males and one female. So, I could see Jim (who professed watching Babylon 5 while creating the series--he named Harry DRESDEN after DRESDEN was mentioned on the show) using "the One" being a trinity that had all given birth.
So, Harry could fit the definition of Mab if really needed, as he had given birth.
I'll combine this though with my theory that Mab/Murphy exists. So perhaps there will be a set of "Mab's" that will need to work in tandem across subsets of realities where they each rule. Or, a Mab/Murphy ascends to Mother Murphy. Or we could have a 'Mab/Queen' trinity of Murphy, Harry, Molly that works in tandem.

And supporting text of a jilted Queen Harry pretending to be gay in White Knight.

(click to show/hide)

"Are you sure?" the cop asked the security guy. "Oh, absolutely," he said. "Toe-moss," he said, emphasizing the pronunciation, "is as queer as a three-dollar bill." "He have any other men here?" "Once or twice," the man said. "This tall one is new, but he does have one of the original keys." "He could have stolen it," the cop said. "An NBA-sized gay burglar who works with a dog?" the security guy replied. "We'll make sure he's not stealing the fridge when he comes out. If Raith is missing anything, we'll point him right at this guy. We've got him on video, eyewitnesses putting him in the apartment, a copy of his driver's license, for crying out loud."
"If they're in a relationship," the cop said, "how come this Raith guy never cleared his boyfriend?"
"You know how queers are, the way they sleep around," the security guy said. "He was just covering his ass." "So to speak," the cop said. Security guy missed the irony in her tone, and let out a smug chuckle. "Like I said. We'll watch him." "Do that," the cop said.
"I don't like it, but if you're sure."
"I don't want a jilted queen making a big scene. No one wants that."

(click to show/hide)

Thomas froze. His eyes widened to the size of hand mirrors. He swallowed, and the bobby pins fell out of his mouth. All the women looked back and forth between us, and there was an immediate buzz of whispers and quiet talks. "You have got to be kidding me," I said. "O-oh," Thomas said. "Ah-ree." One of the stylists glanced back and forth between us and said, "Thomas." (She pronounced it Toe-moss.) "Who isyour friend?" Friend. Oy vey. I rubbed at the bridge of my nose with one hand. I was never going to get away from this one. Not if I lived to be five hundred.

Titania's interest in getting Harry's thoughts about gay guys.

(click to show/hide)

Quote

“But this place is more than that. It is a location for . . . unapproved liaisons.” I shrugged. “It’s just you and me. I figured if you wanted to kill me, you could do it here without hurting anybody else.” Titania nodded, her expression turning thoughtful. “What think you of the men who come here to meet with one another?” “Uh,” I said, feeling somewhat off balance. “What do I think of gay guys?” “Yes.” “Boink and let boink, more or less.”
“Meaning?” “Meaning it doesn’t have a lot to do with me,” I said. “It’s none of my business what they do. I don’t go over in their living room and get my freak on with women. They don’t come over and do whatever they do with other guys at my house.” “You don’t feel that they are morally wrong to do so?” “I have no idea if it’s right or wrong,” I said. “To me, it mostly doesn’t matter.” “And why not?” “Because even if they are doing something immoral, I’d be an idiot to start criticizing them for it if I wasn’t perfect myself. Smoking is self-destructive. Drinking is self-destructive. Losing your temper and yelling at people is wrong. Lying is wrong. Cheating is wrong. Stealing is wrong. But people do that stuff all the time. Soon as I figure out how to be a perfect human being, then I’m qualified to go lecture other people about how they live their lives.”
“An odd sentiment. Are you not ‘only human’? Will you not always be imperfect?” “Now you’re catching on,” I said. “You do not see it as a sin?” I shrugged. “I think it’s a cruel world. I think it’s hard to find love. I think we should all be happy when someone manages to do it.” “Love,” Titania said. She had keyed on the word. “Is that what happens here?” “The guys who come here for anonymous sex?” I sighed. “Not so much. I think that part’s a little sad. I mean, anytime sex becomes something so . . . damned impersonal, it’s a shame. And I don’t think it’s good for them. But it’s not me they’re hurting.” “Why should that matter?” I just looked at Titania for a second. Then I said, “Because people should be free. And as long as something they want to do isn’t harming others, they should be free to do it. Obviously.”
“Is it?” Titania asked. “It would not seem to be, judging from the state of the mortal world.” “Yeah. A lot of people don’t get that,” I said. “They get caught up in right and wrong. Or right and left. But none of that stuff matters if people aren’t free.” Titania studied me intently. “Why are you asking me about that, of all things?” I asked. “Because it felt appropriate. Because my instincts told me that your answers would tell me something about you that I needed to know.”

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on July 01, 2018, 10:54:36 PM

Quote

“I have no use for weakness, wizard.” She shivered in a kind of slow, alien ecstasy. “Rest. Heal. Sleep. I shall most likely kill you on the morrow.” “You? A Princess Bride quote?” I croaked. “What is that?” she asked. Then she was gone. Just gone.

Mab/Murphy is to Dread Pirates Roberts as Harry is to Princess Buttercup.

One could argue that Mab/Murphy is training Harry similar to how Dread Pirates Roberts trained Westley to take over for him.  The reference to Princess Bride could further be a hint that a masked individual Mab/Murphy is in love with Harry; yet, Harry can't see his true love due to Mab's mask.


Mab with that quote is conveying multiple hints to Harry.  Yet, Harry doesn't get it.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on July 01, 2018, 11:28:23 PM

Serack, can I get this moved over into the Reference Collection.  It has many of my thoughts, etc on Mab/Murphy should that ever happen.  It also has some reasonings that apply well should Mab/Molly be the case for Ms. Duck.

This is related to the WOJ's listed below: What I find interesting is the "Murphy, it's you!" thought that Jim has where he borrowed Murphy's character from Robocop where another character is behind a mask.  It leads me to further believe there will be a "Murphy, it's you!" moment where Harry finds out Murphy is some character behind a mask that got that way due to a Time Travel related plot.

WOJ's from a transcript:
When Lacuna and Toot-Toot were hanging around, do you make them a mirror of Harry and Murphy on purpose?
I didn't do it consciously, but there might have been some English Major stuff happening when I wasn't looking.

The last time Harry had a date, you put a bullet in him. Is he ever going to get out on a Saturday night?
No! Because he doesn't want a bullet in him. At this point he kind of just looks out at the world and go: "Yeah, no. That's not going to happen."

Is officer Murphy named after the officer in the Richard Scarry books?
No. Murphy was named after Murphy from Robocop. The short, cute, looks like your favorite aunt, blond girl who is like "Murphy, it's you!". I'm not sophisticated guys, when I see a character I want -- gimmie that.

Is the hit that Harry took out on himself still in effect because he survived it?
You'll have to talk to Kincaid about that. Depends what his professional ethics are like, I don't know. I'll say this, you don't know the backstory of what happened during that. I'll have to write it in as a vignette somewhere. Or I'll just write it and put in online, you guys can just read it then.

In Proven Guilty, the first time Harry encounters "Daddy Scarecrow", his arm is chopped off by Thomas' saber and hit by a van, etc. Why is he not hurt by iron?
Part of that is because of the nature of how phobo-phages work, they are not actually there. They are projecting energy into a body. When he was in Faerie, that was a different story. When they are coming over to Earth, nobody wants to drive their own car in the demolition derby. You get a junker car. That's what he's doing.

Title: Re: Mab/Murphy Ironies
Post by: raidem on July 02, 2018, 11:47:54 PM

Quote

Murphy was in clear view of anyone when the Lady mantles were transferred, Maeve did not think she was a suitable candidate either. (otherwise she would have killed her).

One thing that stood out to me is that Maeve really never pays much attention to Murphy who is covered in dirt.  Jim mentions Maeve having to uncover them before she identifies the person and once she gets to Sarissa she stops there.  What is funny is that she mentions that Mab, the Queen of Air and Darkness, would never resort to dirtying herself to bypass the Demonreach's ward all the while with Murphy dirtied up standing right there.  In my recollection of the events on Demonreach, Maeve doesn't pay Murphy much attention except that she was grabbed to be used as bait and the generic ice handcuffs that I believe was placed on everyone.

After reviewing the excerpt of Skin Game, it appears that Maeve at least knows the dirtied up figure with "blue eyes reddened," apparently because of the mud, is at least "feisty" something we know has been associated with Murphy many times throughout the books.  I don't know for a fact that Maeve knew Murphy was in fact there, but I think it would be fairly safe to assume so but still.

To be fair to Ms. Duck's theory, Molly also stands there unseen dirtied up too.