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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: namkcas on October 14, 2017, 07:24:16 PM

Title: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: namkcas on October 14, 2017, 07:24:16 PM

PG is considered a book that is very thick with unanswered questions.  This theory makes it actually a quite simple book.  A book where the main points are actually called out directly...mostly by Harry.  The problem is that it only makes sense post-Cold Days.

The main questions are:

- Who sent the Fetches?
- Why did the Black Council (maybe we should call it The Circle per WN) attack Arctus Tor?
- Who fixed Little Chicago?
- Who hit Harry's car?

The answer lies in the future roles planned for Molly Carpenter. Mab's desire to have her and Harry positioned for future work is the driving force of the story.

Remember this is all kicked off by a letter from the Gatekeeper.  We now know that he hangs with a lot of folks from Winter and is working with Mab to defend the Outer Gates. His message was about Black Magic in Chicago.  Harry gets this message right after the execution of a Warlock.

Molly, at this point, is a Warlock and clearly on a downward slope.  Charity admits that she had problems and future events (particularly TC, Changes, and GS) show that Molly is touched by darkness.  Imagine that Harry does not act.  I would consider it likely that Molly would be full Warlock and be executed.  The primary outcome of PG is that Molly is saved from immediate Warlockdom and is Harry's apprentice.

Molly has come to the attention of the Black Council somehow.  That is why they are in the picture here.  The entire scenario would be set up for Glau to monitor Molly's progress to evil.  I agree with Harry that Glau was a cutout and that leads to the answer to the next two questions.

Mab sent the fetches to kidnap Molly to keep her away from the Black Council.  They were upset enough about this that they attacked Arctus Tor.  Mab fights them off but keeps things open for Harry to rescue the girl.  She wants Molly bound to Harry and wants her in place.  She needs to judge Harry's capability.  So she sets up a difficult but not impossible rescue scenario (I have no use for weakness.).

That means it is Mab that fixes Little Chicago.  She does so because she wants Harry to succeed in his rescue.  This is similar to the help she gave him by calling Thomas in CD.  I want to point out that this plot is similar to (in some ways) the Archive in SmF.  Mab tried to kidnap the Archive so that the Denarians could not (and failed).  In the PG case put Molly in instead of the Archive.  She does not make these things easy for Harry (remember the line about preparing Harry to become Winter Knight). 

The other thing that gets accomplished in PG is that Mab shows Nemesis to Harry.  He does not recognize it but it is called a sickness and several nFected sidhe are part of the story.  If Mab is listening in to the conversation at Mac's with Maeve, then she would know that Maeve in nFected right then.

Finally, Ace likely is the one that hits Harry's car.  He is likely the bomber of Murphy's car in WN.


TL:DR  PG is all about getting Molly to be Harry's apprentice.  Mab has a difficult rescue set up for Harry to test/prepare him.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 14, 2017, 07:49:31 PM
Well, I think everyone already knows my theory that there is a strong link between Murphy and Mab, going so far as equating the two in some past,present,future, alternate reality. So here it goes.
First off, I think Harry's accident was to get Murphy involved in assisting Harry in the search for black magic, aka Molly's black magic.
Second, it was Murphy that tipped Harry off to use Charity's blood to divine the whereabouts of Molly.

To be continuted with supporting text and further arguments.
(click to show/hide)
So, whoever hit Harry's car, whether with goodwill or ill intent, it had the consequence of Murphy getting involved.  Murphy's involvement directly led to Harry successfully finding the opening to Deep Faerie to rescue her.  And, Murphy's entrance and assistance followed directly after Charity and company sought Heavenly assistance in the matter.  As to Mab, she would be fully aware of a method of how Harry would search for Molly, so I doubt she was surprised and anticipated it.
So, I agree that Mab could definitely have been the one to have fixed Little Chicago.  Subsequent text in later books confirm that possibility since Fae with benevolent intent can have greater freedom of action within a threshold which Mab wouldn't have had much of a problem with anyway.

(click to show/hide)
Bringing in Molly, preserves a successor for either Winter and Molly.  It also bring Murphy to Arctis Tor.  If somehow Proven Guilty was an attempt by the bad guys to get rid of Murphy prior to her ascension as Mab, then Mab short circuited that gambit by bringing Murphy, her prior self, to the safety of Arctis Tor.  Or, if Murphy is a vessel of some kind, she is a backup.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: jonas on October 14, 2017, 09:50:38 PM
Ahh.. you jogged something else on Murphy, the original time ID interefered he directly told Harry he should trust Murph, this action changed their whole dynamic throughout the stories. Looking backwards through the sieve of generational theory, MM Murphy is probably a Denarian enemy of Dresden's. Between the dream involving her as a denarian(which most dreams he get's filter things in from alt realities) and looking at the odd possibility she would basically be Nic's wife in his variation. The whole love/hate thing would work well there.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Cozarkian on October 16, 2017, 02:22:18 PM
Another WAG I've had that supports the Mab connection.

Harry was saved from using LC by a timely phone call from Molly. Assuming someone knew Harry was about to use it and wanted to save him, the easiest method would be to have a chat with Molly at the police station to help her realize she already knows someone who can help - Harry.

We've seen Mab use false personas. I think she appeared to Molly off-screen masquerading as a friendly ear and prompted the call to Harry. It makes more sense than Molly fortuitously calling at that exact moment.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 16, 2017, 02:54:18 PM
My original thoughts on that was a TTMolly was in the midst.  And, that Mouse wasn't just picking up on black magic Molly but on something bad at the police station when Harry went to pick her up.
We have seen Mab impersonate Molly in phone calls before.
I'm stretching things, but the phone call was fortuitous.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on October 16, 2017, 03:13:56 PM
Another WAG I've had that supports the Mab connection.

Harry was saved from using LC by a timely phone call from Molly. Assuming someone knew Harry was about to use it and wanted to save him, the easiest method would be to have a chat with Molly at the police station to help her realize she already knows someone who can help - Harry.

We've seen Mab use false personas. I think she appeared to Molly off-screen masquerading as a friendly ear and prompted the call to Harry. It makes more sense than Molly fortuitously calling at that exact moment.

Holy crap, I never even thought about that at all.

Why did Mouse growl then but not later? It wasn't Nelson's presence, because Mouse was fine in the hospital with the girl, and Molly had done the same thing to both of them.

Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 16, 2017, 03:27:33 PM
Quote
Why did Mouse growl then but not later?
This is my understanding of Mouse growling.
First, Harry assumed Mouse was growling at the car parked behind in police parking lot. It turned out to be Thomas. Or, was there something near the police entrance that Mouse was picking up on and Harry incorrectly blamed it on the the person following him.
Second, We assume Mouse was picking up on black magic on Molly


Quote
Molly smiled at the dog and reached down to pet him.
Mouse tensed up, and a low rumbling came from his chest. Molly moved her hand toward him again, and my dog’s chest suddenly rumbled with a deep and warning growl.
The last time Mouse had growled at anything—for that matter, made much noise at all—it had been a crazed sorcerer who made fair headway toward eviscerating me, and summoned a twenty-foot-long demon cobra to kill my dog. Mouse killed it instead. Then, at my command, Mouse killed the sorcerer, too.
And now he was growling at Molly.
“Be polite,” I told him firmly. “She’s a friend.”
Mouse gave me a look and then fell quiet again. He sat calmly as Molly let him sniff her hand and scratch at his ears, but his wary body language didn’t change.
Quote
Molly got it. Her face went white and she whispered, “Oh, God. She’ll be so…” She folded her arms and shook her head several times. Then she said,
“I’ve got to…” She looked around, and in a louder voice said, “I’m dying for coffee. Anyone else need some?”
Nobody did. Molly picked up her purse and turned around to walk for the door. In doing so, she brushed within a foot or two of Mouse. Instead of growling, though, Mouse leaned his head affectionately against her leg as she went by, and cadged a few ear scratches from the girl before she left.
I frowned at Mouse after Molly had gone. “Are you going bipolar on me?”
He settled down again immediately. Murphy went on asking Rosie fairly predictable questions about the attack.

Edit: Some pointed out it seems sort of irrelevant or at least insignificant from a doylist perspective to go back to Harry visiting Molly at Police hq.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Talby16 on October 16, 2017, 03:36:58 PM
I like this Proven Guilty theory. Neatly ties up some of the loose ends. I confess, it never occurred to me that Mab was intentionally kidnapping Molly to keep her away from the Black Council. If I am understanding your theory correctly, the fetches were sent by Mab the whole time using Molly's behavior changing action as the link. The eldest fetch was sent to take care of Glau and protect/test/train Harry.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on October 16, 2017, 04:17:43 PM
This is my understanding of Mouse growling.
First, Harry assumed Mouse was growling at the car parked behind in police parking lot. It turned out to be Thomas. So, was there something in the police HQ that Mouse was growling at.
Second, We assume Mouse was picking up on black magic on Molly

Sure, but it doesn't make sense that Mouse would pick up on it at the police station but not be similarly distressed later. The Gatekeeper's note specifies that it's been "repeated acts of black magic over the last ten days," and we know Nelson was hit first. It's not like she had just done some black magic, you know? Rosie's was fresher, so he should be more on edge.

Unless he took Harry's "She's a friend" to heart, and just gave it a pass.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 16, 2017, 04:29:02 PM
Yeah, It was why I had wondered if it was a TTMolly that Mouse had met on one occasion and the real Molly on the other.  But, that kinda gets a bit TT screwy.

Less TT screwy would be say Goodman Grey, or someone like him, impersonated Molly in first interaction.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on October 16, 2017, 06:20:29 PM
Yeah, It was why I had wondered if it was a TTMolly that Mouse had met on one occasion and the real Molly on the other.  But, that kinda gets a bit TT screwy.

Less TT screwy would be say Goodman Grey, or someone like him, impersonated Molly in first interaction.

It doesn't quite jibe, though; Molly doesn't express any surprise at seeing him later, and takes him to the convention. They even talk about Nelson's bail later in the book.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 16, 2017, 08:37:53 PM
Sure, but it doesn't make sense that Mouse would pick up on it at the police station but not be similarly distressed later. The Gatekeeper's note specifies that it's been "repeated acts of black magic over the last ten days," and we know Nelson was hit first. It's not like she had just done some black magic, you know? Rosie's was fresher, so he should be more on edge.

Unless he took Harry's "She's a friend" to heart, and just gave it a pass.
This is very possible. Does anyone recall a passing mention of a "Joe Nobody" type character walking by or hanging out?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: jonas on October 16, 2017, 09:47:04 PM
Holy crap, I never even thought about that at all.

Why did Mouse growl then but not later? It wasn't Nelson's presence, because Mouse was fine in the hospital with the girl, and Molly had done the same thing to both of them.
My assumption was He could See Nemesis inside her, THAT'S what wanted Harry involved in it. (if you look at the mirror mechanism used by the fetches for become, and apply that to the soul as a mirror...)
The whole thing Getting Molly involved in Black Magic an all that was a ploy to get Harry in trouble/outted/doing things that violate rules and Laws. Same way they set him up to violate homestead laws in GP. Consider If Harry hadn't rose to the occasion  with TWG's help? fallen to the wayside on the run and 'warlocked' technically.
Also... that's likely why Mouse is there, first to protect Harry, especially in his dreams, and now Maggie from Nfluence/control. Right before Harry got Mouse he had the creepy dream with the evil Lea talking to him...
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: peregrine on October 17, 2017, 04:46:18 AM
Sure, but it doesn't make sense that Mouse would pick up on it at the police station but not be similarly distressed later. The Gatekeeper's note specifies that it's been "repeated acts of black magic over the last ten days," and we know Nelson was hit first. It's not like she had just done some black magic, you know? Rosie's was fresher, so he should be more on edge.

Unless he took Harry's "She's a friend" to heart, and just gave it a pass.
Let's face it, Mouse isn't going to just hate on someone forever just because they've got that touch of black magic on them.  After all, Harry.,
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: namkcas on October 17, 2017, 05:55:14 AM
Thank at least 1 person for discussing my theory.  I went from the WoJ (I think it was) that we could discover the point of PG by looking at what came out of it.  Most everyone noted the BC attack, but the main plot of the book was patently ignored.  So, I said...suppose the main plot of the book was actually the main plot of the book.

However, I think the Mouse thing is trivial to explain.  Molly had recently done Black Magic.  Mouse reacts to evil actions not to potential evil (otherwise he would have had problems with Thomas).  As Molly got more distant from this and potentially changed direction, Mouse changes his views and likes her.

NOTE:  The only reason I type this is that Sandra Marling meets Mouse twice during the book and he has no noted reaction to her.  That (to me) pretty much seals it that she is not a player in the game.

I would greatly prefer if you want to have a thread about another theory...that you make another thread.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 17, 2017, 11:21:06 AM
I addressed at least two of your main questions.  And I proposed that she planned to bring Murphy into the equation.
As to the fetches, mab sent them. Woj confirms it.
Text in cold days already proves that mab was suspicious of maeve and most likely hedging in proven guilty by bringing in Molly.
I didn't recall mouse and Sandra interactions.

Sorry about threads going off topic of the op, though most were germane to pg.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 01:28:55 PM
I think Mouse was only present during one of the Sandra interactions, the one where Molly is being questioned by cops. And, he was already tense from Darby interaction. Molly was the focus of the book, there is no doubt. But, I feel that Mab had more going than to clue Harry in about Nemesis.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: namkcas on October 17, 2017, 01:35:51 PM
warden,

I just re-listened to PG.  There are 2 interactions on 1 trip.  No growls at Marling.  Yes, Mab wanted to give Harry a clue.  That was a secondary outcome not a primary outcome.  Because Harry received all kinds of information and had no idea.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: namkcas on October 17, 2017, 01:42:25 PM
@raidem,

Actually all you did is post about your theories.  I put you on ignore about 3 years ago because this is my opinion of what you do.  You post about what you think repeatedly.  With the forum's going away, I removed that.  So how about this, make a post critiquing what I wrote without mentioning anything that you have ever posted.  Compare what I wrote to the text of the books and WoJ's, etc.  The point of the exercise is to see how well what the Theory Wrote compares to the information that we have. 

You have posted the same stuff for years about time travel and alternate realities and such.  My theory is that NONE of that happened in PG.  That there is NO Time Travel NOR is there any Alternate Reality NOR is there any Special Connection, except as I have spelled out.  This was Mab saving Molly.  In a Mab way.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 03:08:06 PM
Hmm.., I'll go check. You could be right. I just find Sandra to be iffy.  That and taking Bob to the hotel seemed odd. It created a rare opportunity where noone was in Harry's place. I agree that Mab had plans for Molly. And, using Harry and Molly to discover the depth of Nem-infection in her court was possibly part of Mab's long game. Mab would see Harry as a crude but useful multi-purpose tool.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on October 17, 2017, 03:19:51 PM
@raidem,

Actually all you did is post about your theories.  I put you on ignore about 3 years ago because this is my opinion of what you do.  You post about what you think repeatedly.  With the forum's going away, I removed that.  So how about this, make a post critiquing what I wrote without mentioning anything that you have ever posted.  Compare what I wrote to the text of the books and WoJ's, etc.  The point of the exercise is to see how well what the Theory Wrote compares to the information that we have. 

You have posted the same stuff for years about time travel and alternate realities and such.  My theory is that NONE of that happened in PG.  That there is NO Time Travel NOR is there any Alternate Reality NOR is there any Special Connection, except as I have spelled out.  This was Mab saving Molly.  In a Mab way.

For what it's worth, I agree with your concept, pretty much as written. I can quibble over minor details, but as a whole it feels right. I don't think there needs to be time travel or anything special going on for the plot of Proven Guilty to be resolved. We already have at least one person with confirmed foresight into the events of the book, and it's certainly not a stretch for Mab to have similar foresight, even if Rashid didn't share information. In my opinion, Mab sees Molly as an investment. Mab is good as a talent scout; she even mentions making Thomas the Winter Knight, for example. She likes planting multiple seeds.

I would posit two further, less important motives for Mab: First, Harry. With Molly as his apprentice, Harry gets better at his job. It's like assigning him a low-intensity workout regimen. It's a situation that has a bunch of lingering effects. Molly's the one who detects Luccio's mental compromise; Molly's the one who later functions as Bonnie's midwife, and so on. It also forces Harry and Michael to confront each other, which Harry was reluctant to do thanks to Lasciel's shadow. This becomes particularly important considering the events of Small Favor, during which Harry becomes acquainted with Demonreach. A whole lot of dominoes get knocked over because of Harry's relationship with Molly, in other words. Primarily, as you pointed out, Molly is saved and the grooming process begins.

A second, less important motive: beginning the process of getting Murphy kicked out of the police force, and exposing her to Faerie politics for the first real time (Summer Knight doesn't count; she really just took down a chlorofiend). Murphy, who later is the one who pulls the trigger on Maeve, after spearheading an assault against the Red Court, gets in huge trouble for disappearing for a full day after Arctis Tor, and loses SI as a result. This puts her directly on a path that includes losing her badge entirely, and being free to pick up the slack when Harry's dead at the end of Changes. That requires a bit more foresight than is usually attributed to anyone, but even a sense from Mab along the lines of "Murphy will be an important player later, and this will help get her involved" is enough to sweeten the pot. Again, not as important as Molly, but still a potential thought.

Mostly, though, the simple answer is the best. Mab wanted Molly to be saved, and orchestrated a series of events that put Harry in the position to save her.

taking Bob to the hotel seemed odd. It created a rare opportunity where noone was in Harry's place.

I have never once realized that, and feel spectacularly stupid for missing it. The only one there was Mister, and he was likely out for his evening prowl.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 03:41:42 PM
I, respectfully, have to disagree on your secondary motive. Murphy, would have been more useful as an authority figure for the police force. Granted, her freedom increased with loss of position; but, she lost resources that came with her position. Question, prior to CD, were Mab and Murphy ever in each other's presence or has Mab ever made reference to Murphy? While I believe that Mab knew of Murphy and her ties to Harry, I don't think that Mab credited her with much significance.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on October 17, 2017, 04:04:44 PM
I, respectfully, have to disagree on your secondary motive. Murphy, would have been more useful as an authority figure for the police force. Granted, her freedom increased with loss of position; but, she lost resources that came with her position. Question, prior to CD, were Mab and Murphy ever in each other's presence or has Mab ever made reference to Murphy? While I believe that Mab knew of Murphy and her ties to Harry, I don't think that Mab credited her with much significance.

For the record, disagree with me all you like, respectfully or otherwise; I have very thick skin. It's pretty much impossible to offend me.

I see your point; losing influence over the police isn't a good thing. However, Mab remedies that when she deals with Marcone, who has plenty, if not more, influence over Chicago PD.

Murphy's position in CPD is not one with major influence to begin with; she's Captain of the Misfits, Commander of the Career Dead-ends. She doesn't have a say in policy or procedure, and the one thing Mab might want—a bunch of cops showing up to a scene of her choosing—is influence Murphy still retains by virtue of being popular within her old department. If she picked up the phone and asked Stallings to come check something out, he'd do it. She just lacks official authority and capacity, which is unfortunate, but not all that critical. Murphy's more useful to Mab where she is, in my opinion. She's free to work with, for example, Marcone, which would never fly if she was still a cop. She holds the respect of a lot of the Free Will-Aligned Chicago; a whole lot of cops, Will, Butters, Molly, Abby, Michael, Sanya, Marcone, and even Lara have respect for her. So does Mort. She's one of a handful of people with enough clout and personal relationships to slap together an alliance to hold the line when it becomes necessary—and she couldn't do that and still be a cop. I don't think anyone else could've been in a good enough position to do what she did.

Marcone might've been able to pull it off, but he doesn't have the trust of the Paranet. It would be way more of a constant siege; a series of violent altercations based on retribution and preventive violence rather than life preservation.

I don't think they're ever seen together before Cold Days, but I'd wager that Mab knows all about Murphy cutting up an Aurora-possessed Chlorofiend with a chainsaw. I think she's been on Mab's radar for a while.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 04:27:36 PM
Marcone does have greater authority, unofficially. I just feel that Mab didn't care whether Murphy was a cop or not. She sees Murphy as a Dresden-connected pawn with connections and willingness to face the supernatural.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Cozarkian on October 17, 2017, 04:31:41 PM
Murphy fighting the chlorofiend wasn't impressive - Aurora wasn't able to harm Murphy because Murphy wasn't an emissary so wasn't connected to the Fae.

It was like Lois Lane using kryptonite to fight Superman.

Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on October 17, 2017, 04:40:49 PM
Murphy fighting the chlorofiend wasn't impressive - Aurora wasn't able to harm Murphy because Murphy wasn't an emissary so wasn't connected to the Fae.

It was like Lois Lane using kryptonite to fight Superman.

Assuming that's true, Murphy didn't know that when she did it. It's like Lois Lane unknowingly wearing a kryptonite necklace, but choosing to fight Superman anyway. In this case, I think the relevant part is related to the old adage, but changed slightly to "It's not whether you win or lose, it's whether you play in the first place."

Marcone does have greater authority, unofficially. I just feel that Mab didn't care whether Murphy was a cop or not. She sees Murphy as a Dresden-connected pawn with connections and willingness to face the supernatural.

Ah, I get you. It's a perfectly valid interpretation. I won't belabor the point; I've said it all already.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 17, 2017, 05:07:17 PM
   Back to the OP for a moment, there were 4 questions asked. I would like to respond with possible answers. Not necessarily my POV, just random quick thoughts.
1. Who sent the fetches?
a. Mab sent them to use Molly as bait to get Harry's attention without losing a favor.
b. Maeve sent them as a bit of revenge against Harry for his attitude towards her.
c. Lea sent them to draw Harry to Arctus Tor and free her Nem-infected self.
2. Why did Black Council (prefer this name) attack Arctus Tor?
a. To free asset (Lea) from Mab.
b. To test Mab's defenses and capabilities.
c. Maeve, as a recently acquired asset, demanded it.
3. Who fixed Little Chicago?
a. Mab did it so that Harry would not die and Mab would lose a potentially useful fighter.
b. Lasciel, using Harry's body, as part of long con of temptation.
c. TTHarry, self preservation.
4.Who hit Harry's car?
a. Ace, for revenge over SK.
b. Sandra Marling, an opportunity to knock resident trouble-shooter out of picture.
c. Larry Fowler, because the guy is a pompous jerk.
   Just random thoughts, not validated.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: beetnemesis on October 17, 2017, 07:06:07 PM
As much as I like figuring stuff out from an in-universe perspective (Watsonian), I think you guys need to take a step back and think like a Doyalist (author/reader perspective).

A Doyalist would be asking, what would make for a better story?

And honestly, a lot of the theories in this thread... would not make a good story.

Some key facts to consider:

Proven Guilty came out ages ago. Think about what that means. We've all moved on, and meaningless details have mostly been forgotten. It would be incredibly boring to have something like, say, "Remember 10 years ago? That person who had the idea of tracking Molly through her mother's blood....wasn't Murphy at all!!!! (It was actually Mab).

Reader reaction would just be, "Oh. Huh."

Same thing with Ace. Ace is done. No one cares about Ace. Hell, people barely cared about Ace when he came back in Cold Days. I don't even remember if he's dead, that's how irrelevant Ace is.  Imagine if we discovered that, 10 years ago... Ace almost hurt Harry with his car!!! (He didn't, though).

The problem is all the little inconsistencies in PG aren't actually important right now. If they're not important, they're not satisfying to read about.

And there's no way to MAKE them important, in the here and now- those books are done with, enemies defeated, everyone's moved on.

Luckily... we have a wizard, and Jim is chatty. Consider the following:

- Proven Guilty has a good number of minor, deliberate, unsolved mysteries.
- Jim has stated that Harry will need to deal with every one of the Laws before the series is over.
- At the time of writing Proven Guilty, Jim was also working on the Dresden Files RPG
- The Dresden Files RPG has a lot of bonus material not in the books, including information on Baltimore, secret societies, and a primer on how time travel works (page 243). It even references PG specifically, proving if nothing else that Jim had these two books on his mind.

So with all that in mind, I think the simplest solution, as unintuitive as it may be, is: a Time Traveller (likely Harry), who is in a story akin to Prisoner of Azkaban: Harry goes back to a time we've read about before, and has his own plot, while guiding/avoiding/fixing the events of the previous timeline.

It would make a LOT of sense, and be a good story, because the events would be happening "now," so to speak. Instead of "Oh, so you're the one who fixed my model city 10 years ago? ...thanks, I guess?" it'd be "Crap, I need to fix this model city NOW so I can find the bad guy, and I need to do it and get out of here before Past Harry gets home!"


___

I think that's what it comes down to, for me. Immediacy. Any theory that's just an unimportant minor revelation is just going to be incredibly unsatisfying to read, and considering that it's pretty clear how deliberate this was from Jim, I don't think unsatisfying is in the cards.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: namkcas on October 17, 2017, 07:10:54 PM
@wardenferry,

1 - Those are the answers that are pretty standard.

2 - The one thing to me that stands out is the timing.  WHY attack then?  What was different?  The only answer I have is Molly.

--- As a note, this is the thing that made me come up with the theory.  They have years and years to attack Mab in Arctus Tor, yet they only do so when Molly is there.  I am stretching the text with this, because we have no exact timing of the attack.  It just seems unlikely that Mab would leave her gates blown up for Months and Years.  So I am presuming that the attack is recent to when Harry shows up.  Molly has been there for at least overnight.  It is not exactly clear the time difference from Molly being there to Harry showing up, but it has to be on the order of 12 hours. 

3 - Those are the standard answers.

4 - I lean to Ace because he continued to try to kill Harry...for example he could be the Murphy Car Bomber in WN.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: namkcas on October 17, 2017, 07:19:11 PM
@bestnemesis,

Things come back 10 years later in this series.  Faith Astor is set to come back at the start of BAT.  You may not have cared, but other's do.  And PG is the book with the least tied up answers in most people's mind.  That is because all of this is recently relevant in the series.  For example, it is where (if we had known) we saw an nFected Maeve.  That and the Black Council are still important enemies.

Finally, Time Travel is a horrible answer in this series.  If I were Harry and I time traveled from the end of the series I would:

1 - Go back in Time and Kill Cowl.
2 - Ditto with Peabody
3 - Same with Arianna
4 - And the rest of the Red Court
5 - And heck while we are at it the Fomor

If you can not see the problem with going back in time, then remember this - if you can...do the "Kill the bad guy" thing before it becomes a problem for Harry.  Why would TT Harry just not wait at Molly's, Kill the Fetches, and move along.  He knows they are showing up.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 17, 2017, 11:28:18 PM
Quote
Question, prior to CD, were Mab and Murphy ever in each other's presence or has Mab ever made reference to Murphy? While I believe that Mab knew of Murphy and her ties to Harry, I don't think that Mab credited her with much significance.

(click to show/hide)

***I moved this to Mab/Murphy Ironies
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,50304.0.html
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 17, 2017, 11:32:38 PM
@Namckas I agreed with everything you said except for this in your OP, which is where I sprang my post from. I guess you assumed that I didn't agree with you and was offering a totally different theory.  I wasn't.  Your theory and others like it are the predominant ones in my head. So, I kinda don't even argue them.  I pretty much consider them fact at this point.  Sorry that I didn't start by saying I totally agreed, but I did jump to the bottom issue with the point I disagreed with. I assumed that there would be assumption that agreed with everything up until that point. My bad.
Quote
Finally, Ace likely is the one that hits Harry's car.

From this point I offered a different perspective one that had a side effect of bringing in Murphy into the equation who showed up at the accident site, and participated directly in helping Harry find out how to track Molly.
Quote
Compare what I wrote to the text of the books and WoJ's, etc.  The point of the exercise is to see how well what the Theory Wrote compares to the information that we have. 
You have posted the same stuff for years about time travel and alternate realities and such.  My theory is that NONE of that happened in PG.  That there is NO Time Travel NOR is there any Alternate Reality NOR is there any Special Connection, except as I have spelled out.  This was Mab saving Molly.  In a Mab way.
All of that, is kinda wasted space because I agreed with your theory with the caveat that PG in many people's mind is probably one book where there will be a revisit of some kind which does include time travel.
I constantly think through my Mab/Murphy theory and try to see where/how it can jive throughout the books.  It's a series spanning theory, so it touches on much.  I also try to examine it in light of what others bring up.  I'll try to cut and paste those discussions to more appropriate threads of my own.  My apologies.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on October 18, 2017, 01:08:01 PM

Finally, Time Travel is a horrible answer in this series.

I agree. I think it basically amounts to a cop out. It's too easy to wrap things up with time travel.

I don't know if any of you were into Marble Hornets when it was running, but there was a lot of theorizing that one of the characters who was always seen masked and wearing a hood (named "Hoody" by the fans) was actually the lead protagonist from the future. Whole forum threads were derailed with supporters and detractors of the "Hoody is Future Jay" theory. It worked in Tribe Twelve, but it would've been grossly out of place in Marble Hornets—and Tribe Twelve did the work foreshadowing it and leaving easter eggs for years so that it would make sense when it happened.

I didn't like it as an answer then, and I don't now, even accepting different mediums and stories. Pretty much any mystery in the series can be solved with time travel. As a series that was basically pitched as noir-style detective stories with a twist of wizardry, it wouldn't be consistent, in my opinion.

I'm sure there is a way to incorporate time travel into the series without it being too simple—an uncontrollable LSD style trip to the past, where Harry is thrown to various points in his life and forced to interact with things in order to close the stable time loop that put him on this path in the first place might work, for example. But time travel being the origin of other characters is... dicey. Regardless, if there is time travel, I don't think it should be voluntary, should be uncontrollable by Harry, and should be focused on a specific event.

For example, I could see Winter Lady Molly and Harry going back in time to chase after someone who was altering the timeline to prevent Molly from being saved (and thus ascending to Winter Lady several years later). That could be worked into the overarching Black Council plot, because Molly's been doing too good of a job and has been preventing the Outsiders and others from gaining too much influence.

No offense intended to you, Raidem; you aren't simply throwing this out there with no reasonable evidence. There are parallels between Murphy and Mab to be drawn. I just don't think they indicate time travel.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 18, 2017, 02:56:31 PM
Quote
No offense intended to you, Raidem; you aren't simply throwing this out there with no reasonable evidence. There are parallels between Murphy and Mab to be drawn. I just don't think they indicate time travel.
(click to show/hide)

Spoilered and Moved to Mab/Ironies Thread.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: beetnemesis on October 19, 2017, 01:08:37 PM
I didn't go too much into the time travel thing because it could be done any number of ways. My thought is more along the lines of, "A villain gets a way to travel in time, he goes into the past to cause trouble. Harry has to follow him, drag him back to the present. Along the way, various things happen that cause little details we've noticed in previous books."

It's not lazy at all, done like that- it's just a time travel story. The inconsistencies aren't the POINT of the story, just a by-product of them.

Obviously it's not going to be "Harry gets supreme temporal power, he decides to go hang out in Proven Guilty."

____

Anyway, it doesn't matter. My main point was that the other theories for this thread would make for a terrible story. @namkcas, you said:
Quote
Things come back 10 years later in this series.

Which... kind of misses my point. References to old things aren't bad. But a reference, by itself, isn't interesting.

I guess I'm presupposing two things:

1. The inconsistencies in Proven Guilty are numerous, and blatant, enough to have been done as a setup.
2. A setup needs a PAYOFF. Jim wouldn't put that much effort into something if it wasn't going to be part of a good story.

Do you see? There is no (non-time travel) way to make "10 years ago, Ace hit Harry's car" an interesting payoff. It would cover ground we've already seen in Cold Days. We already know Ace was still around, we already know he's kind of ineffectual. He took his swing at Harry in CD, and missed.

Same holds true for the popular Mab theory. We already learned, from Skin Game, that the fae can enter a home if they mean no harm. That information is stagnant, unsurprising. So, if in a book or two, Mab says, "Oh btw, I fixed your model for you 10 years ago. Thought you could use the help, nbd" it would make SENSE, but it would be completely and utterly BORING. It wouldn't make for a good story.


The reason I mention time travel is because it is one of the few ways to make the mysteries of PG interesting, give them some immediacy. After all, there isn't much at stake otherwise, is there? Molly was rescued, the fetches defeated, everyone moved on with their lives.

It doesn't HAVE to be time travel, but it does have to be interesting.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Cozarkian on October 19, 2017, 07:15:07 PM
Unfortunately, beetnemesis, you are probably right. Bob gives a lecture about time travel in PG but there is no time travel reveal. Which means either JB put effort into a magical theory explanation that was mostly irrelevant, or there actually was TT in PG and we just didn't see it happening.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 19, 2017, 07:27:46 PM
We already had a form of Time Travel at least according to one of the characters in the series, Murphy, and it resulted in her demotion.
Quote
She wiped at her mouth and looked at her watch. She tucked the last of her sandwich between her lips, and then started resetting the watch while she chewed.
“Gone almost exactly twenty-four hours. So we did some kind of time travel?” she asked.
“Oh, God no,” I said. “That’s on the list of Things One Does Not Do. It’s one of the seven Laws of Magic.”
“Maybe,” she said. “But however it happened, a whole day just went poof.
That’s time travel.”
“People are doing that kind of time travel all the time,” I said. “We just pulled into the passing lane for a while.”
She finished setting the watch and grimaced. “All the same.”

I frowned at her. “You okay?”
She looked up at the children and their mother. “I’m going to have one hell of a time explaining where I’ve been for the past twenty-four hours. It isn’t as though I can tell my boss that I went time traveling.”
“Yeah, he’d never buy it. Tell him you invaded Faerieland to rescue a young woman from a monster-infested castle.”
“Of course,” she said. “Why didn’t I think of that?”
I grunted. “Is it going to make trouble for you?”
She frowned for a moment and then said, “Intradepartmental discipline, probably.

So, it's possible that Team Harry (time travelers) enter the mortal world during those 24 hours in which Harry's team were off in the NeverNever.
Again, it would allow Murphy to be involved in time traveling, another detail to support TTMurphy theories.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: namkcas on October 20, 2017, 05:42:29 PM
raidem,

Here is an example of that form of Time Travel....fly in an airplane.  You time travel when you do it.  Frankly, you time travel when you drive in a car (though the effect is so small that it can not be measured).  Any time you move...even walking...is time travel...just do the math with relativity.  The difference is that backwards time travel is not possible in the real world.

@beetnemesis,

I guess my theory is that there are 0 inconsistencies in PG.  None.  Which is the point of my theory.  That the entire book is entirely self-consistent and has a complete conclusion.  What it doesn't have is a wrap up that explains it front to back.

Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on October 20, 2017, 07:05:57 PM
I already know that, but the nn isn't simply time dilation. Nn can speed up time or slow it down relative to other areas in it, or relative to the mortal world.  Anyways, for such a drastic difference in time of one day you would need to be going at speeds much closer to light speed relative to point b. And that isn't what is happening, therefore it's a different form of time travel that is the basic form your describing of our world physics.
There is time traveling occurring in pg, or at least time manipulation occurring and Kringle even references it in cold days.

Quote
when suddenly the silver starlight turned bright azure blue.
“What is that?” I asked, pointing at the sky.
“A temporal pressure wave,” the Erlking said, his flaming eyes narrowed.
“A wha’?” I asked.
The Erlking looked at Kringle. “This is your area of expertise. Explain it.”
“Someone is bending time against us,” Kringle said.
I stared at him for a second and then it clicked. “We’re being rushed forward so that we’ll get there too late,” I said. “We’re looking at a Doppler shift.”
“Is what he said correct?” the Erlking asked Kringle curiously.
“Essentially, aye. We’ve already lost half of an hour by my count.”
“Who could have done this?” I asked.
“You have encountered this before, wizard,” Kringle said. “Can you not guess?”
“One of the Queens,” I muttered. “Or someone operating on their level. Can we get out of this wave?”
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 10:54:56 AM
Unfortunately, beetnemesis, you are probably right. Bob gives a lecture about time travel in PG but there is no time travel reveal. Which means either JB put effort into a magical theory explanation that was mostly irrelevant, or there actually was TT in PG and we just didn't see it happening.
Bob did that lecture fairly early in the book, didn't he?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on October 27, 2017, 12:55:12 PM
Bob did that lecture fairly early in the book, didn't he?

Like the third chapter, right as Harry goes home. Not even fifty pages in. It's the infodump to explain why Rashid was so vague about there being black magic.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 10:34:06 PM
Which did seem to be a bit of leap to explain how Rashid learned of the black magic.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: jonas on October 27, 2017, 10:45:12 PM
Like the third chapter, right as Harry goes home. Not even fifty pages in. It's the infodump to explain why Rashid was so vague about there being black magic.
Ah.. but most every info dump has at least two purposes Imo, if you can find them.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 27, 2017, 10:59:58 PM
To inform and to distract.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Talby16 on October 30, 2017, 02:14:51 PM
To inform and to distract.
Or it could be three-fold. To inform, distract, and plant seeds.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on October 30, 2017, 02:25:32 PM
My bad. I forgot foreshadowing.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Firestarter on November 08, 2017, 04:08:43 PM
Future Harry rammed current Harry.
Future Harry fixed Little Chicago.

I may be mistaken, but given the impact on those events, it's probably that.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Rasins on November 08, 2017, 05:56:12 PM
OR .... Mab fixed Little Chicago.  She was responsible for Harry's well being since she had Leah on ice.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Foxed on November 08, 2017, 09:40:50 PM
The answer lies in the future roles planned for Molly Carpenter. Mab's desire to have her and Harry positioned for future work is the driving force of the story.

I don't buy it. Mab is simply not interested in who Harry is training. Unless I see more, I don't think so.

My theory is that Charity is a descendant of Titania, an Molly was being groomed by Titania for the Summer Lady position.

First of all, the weather is mentioned as it usually is with Fairy Queens around. It is a hot summer. One could conclude that Titania is in Chicago.

Second, Titania hates Lily. Lily is the Summer Lady because Titania didn't plan for Aurora's death. Mab, on the other hand, is basically keeping Sarissa around offpage for this reason (as well as a connection to humanity). So, grooming Molly for Winter Lady at this point doesn't make sense. Mab HAS a spare. Plus whatever covert grooming Molly received emphasized emotion over reason (such as using fear to change minds).

Quote
Remember this is all kicked off by a letter from the Gatekeeper.  We now know that he hangs with a lot of folks from Winter and is working with Mab to defend the Outer Gates. His message was about Black Magic in Chicago.  Harry gets this message right after the execution of a Warlock.

If so, that's an awful roundabout way to get Harry to look for black magic. I think we must take Bob's theory as fact for now: Rashid could not tell Harry more. Also, they spend an awful lot of time discussing time travel for it to have no effect on the plot. Jim's a lazy writer. He wouldn't their in time travel rules for no reason.

Quote
Molly, at this point, is a Warlock and clearly on a downward slope.  Charity admits that she had problems and future events (particularly TC, Changes, and GS) show that Molly is touched by darkness.  Imagine that Harry does not act.  I would consider it likely that Molly would be full Warlock and be executed.  The primary outcome of PG is that Molly is saved from immediate Warlockdom and is Harry's apprentice.

Molly is tricked into creating fear anchors, which a fairy queen uses to send the fetches to kidnap her. I suspect this is Maeve, who is trying to subvert the gullible Lily. Realizing that Titania is creating a spare, Maeve seeks to destroy it before it's useful. Mab, however, suspects that Maeve is subverted by the enemy, and summons the Fetches to her with the girl that Maeve is so interested in. This brings along Harry and only THEN does Mab know Molly's importance. Her choice for Winter Knight. Titania's choice for Summer Lady.

Quote
The entire scenario would be set up for Glau to monitor Molly's progress to evil.  I agree with Harry that Glau was a cutout and that leads to the answer to the next two questions.

Glau doesn't know Molly exists. And even if he did, how is he both monitoring her and a decoy? I suspect that Glau was a secondary fear anchor in Maeve's plan.

Quote
Mab sent the fetches to kidnap Molly to keep her away from the Black Council.  They were upset enough about this that they attacked Arctus Tor.

Except the battle of Arctis Tor is finished when the rescue party arrives, and Molly is still there.

Quote
That means it is Mab that fixes Little Chicago.  She does so because she wants Harry to succeed in his rescue.  This is similar to the help she gave him by calling Thomas in CD.  I want to point out that this plot is similar to (in some ways) the Archive in SmF.  Mab tried to kidnap the Archive so that the Denarians could not (and failed).  In the PG case put Molly in instead of the Archive.  She does not make these things easy for Harry (remember the line about preparing Harry to become Winter Knight). 

Mab doesn't seem the type. If her damned fool wizard is going to blow himself up, he's a weak fool and she doesn't want him.

Quote
The other thing that gets accomplished in PG is that Mab shows Nemesis to Harry.  He does not recognize it but it is called a sickness and several nFected sidhe are part of the story.  If Mab is listening in to the conversation at Mac's with Maeve, then she would know that Maeve in nFected right then.

Mab almost certainly figures it out in this book. Next we see her, she is still too mad to speak without killing mortals. My guess is that Maeve subverting the Eldest Fetch is what proved it, if not how Harry managed to smuggle Summer fire into her domain.

Quote
Finally, Ace likely is the one that hits Harry's car.  He is likely the bomber of Murphy's car in WN.

That is much too simple and too pat for me. Elsewhere I said I think Lash made the whole car accident up. Harry details Lash's illusory powers directly before it happens and there are no witnesses. Why?

Future Harry is living in Harry's brain for the duration of Proven Guilty, and the accident is to fake a concussion to explain away Harry's limited mental real estate. He's who Lash speaks to when Harry's asleep, and he's who fixes Little Chicago. He's why the author hits us with a giant clue bat that says "TIME TRAVEL." I don't know to what end, but expect a future book will clear this up.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Foxed on November 08, 2017, 09:58:52 PM
If you can not see the problem with going back in time, then remember this - if you can...do the "Kill the bad guy" thing before it becomes a problem for Harry.  Why would TT Harry just not wait at Molly's, Kill the Fetches, and move along.  He knows they are showing up.

Yeah, but kill the Fetches and Molly never becomes Harry's apprentice. Never becomes Lea's responsibility.

Never becomes Winter Lady.

Interfere with Proven Guilty, and who the Winter Lady is post-Cold Days is a total wild card.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 08, 2017, 11:21:06 PM
Good points, Foxed. Nice to hear from you again.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on November 09, 2017, 02:56:25 PM
That is much too simple and too pat for me. Elsewhere I said I think Lash made the whole car accident up. Harry details Lash's illusory powers directly before it happens and there are no witnesses. Why?

I'm not really sold on the time travel stuff yet, but this is a really interesting idea that I've never considered or seen before. Not sure I agree with the reason for doing it, but I like the concept a whole lot.

Does Harry bring the Beetle to Mike? Dang it, I just reread most of the series and I can't remember.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on November 09, 2017, 03:05:35 PM
Murphy comes and sees the actual damage.
Theory doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Talby16 on November 09, 2017, 03:46:04 PM
Quote
Grayson came ambling over to us. "Wrecker's on the way," he said. "What do we got here?"
"Hit and run," Murphy said.
Grayson lifted his eyebrows and eyed me. "Yeah? Looked to me like you got hit a couple of times. On purpose-like."

Furthermore the other cop comments on the damage.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Talby16 on November 09, 2017, 03:52:32 PM
Quote
"You sure it was deliberate?"

"Yeah. But whoever it was, he wasn't a pro."

"Why do you say that?"

"If he had been, he'd have spun me easy. No idea he was there until he'd hit me. Could have bumped me into a spin before I could have straightened out. Flipped my car a few times. Killed me pretty good." I rubbed at the back of my neck. A nice, all-body ache was already spreading out into my muscles. "Isn't exactly the best place for it, either."

We know that the attack was not very successful. Which means that it truly was an attack of opportunity as Murphy speculates or it has another purpose altogether. When you remove the chance of injury/death to Dresden, the attack only accomplished a few things. Chief among them is that it involved Murphy from the beginning. We do not know how long Harry would have waited to bring her in if she had not come to the scene of the wreck. My opinion is that a third party (Mab or future Harry possibly) wanted to make sure Murphy was helping Dresden from the get go. Either to ensure the operation's success, ensure Harry's survival, or to move Murphy into a new position on the board.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: jonas on November 09, 2017, 04:11:24 PM
Applying a very simple formulaic approach most of these can be answered by what they change in hindsight to what would have happened without them happening, like LC making Harrys head pop. Iirc right after the crash is when Murph gets involved... Going backwards to an early reference to shenanigins, Id Harry(a widespread though of intrusion) directly tells Harry to trust Murphy more, thus getting her involved more directly and changing their early antagonistic dynamic.
Which if i'm correct about MM being original unaltered timeline, would make sense she's more enemy than friend to Yrrah, him never having trusted her there...
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: raidem on November 09, 2017, 05:02:41 PM
Yeah, Most of my thoughts have touched on IdHarry telling Harry "tell Murphy everything."  And, I've mentioned before I think in this thread about how the car crash brought in Murphy, which also led to Murphy inserting herself and then helping Harry to think of using Charity's blood to find where Molly had been, so as to locate where she had crossed over into deep Faerie.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Rasins on November 09, 2017, 07:28:47 PM
Murphy comes and sees the actual damage.
Theory doesn't fit.

"Murphy" comes and sees the actual damage.

Does she ever mention it later?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Talby16 on November 09, 2017, 07:30:12 PM
"Murphy" comes and sees the actual damage.

Does she ever mention it later?

At some point during the book doesn't she mention Harry's unknown hit and run driver being an unresolved plot thread?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Kindler on November 09, 2017, 07:32:34 PM
Shhhhhhhhh. You guys are ruining perfectly good speculation fodder by bringing up the actual events of the book and applying critical thinking.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Rasins on November 09, 2017, 07:43:19 PM
At some point during the book doesn't she mention Harry's unknown hit and run driver being an unresolved plot thread?

I'll have to check it out.  I don't recall for sure.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 09, 2017, 11:19:28 PM
Shhhhhhhhh. You guys are ruining perfectly good speculation fodder by bringing up the actual events of the book and applying critical thinking.
Them darn facts keep getting in the way of fantasy. I hate them too.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Rasins on November 10, 2017, 02:41:25 PM
(Tongue-in-cheek)

What are we?  Church goers who ignore the Good Book?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 10, 2017, 11:40:14 PM
Don't go to chuch. Feet get hot and I sweat alot. Does that happen to anyone else?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Rasins on November 13, 2017, 04:47:09 PM
Nope ... but you might ask your pastor to check the boiler.  It might be a bit overworked.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Foxed on November 13, 2017, 10:17:03 PM
I maybe misspoke. I don't mean that Harry's car doesn't have damage. I think Harry caused what damage there was himself trying to save himself from a car that only he could see.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Talby16 on November 14, 2017, 03:36:50 PM
I maybe misspoke. I don't mean that Harry's car doesn't have damage. I think Harry caused what damage there was himself trying to save himself from a car that only he could see.
We still have the cop on the scene commenting on intentional damage:
Quote
Grayson came ambling over to us. "Wrecker's on the way," he said. "What do we got here?"
"Hit and run," Murphy said.
Grayson lifted his eyebrows and eyed me. "Yeah? Looked to me like you got hit a couple of times. On purpose-like."
Unless Lash somehow caused Harry to damage the car in such a way that it looks like another car was involved.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: peregrine on November 14, 2017, 03:40:46 PM
We still have the cop on the scene commenting on intentional damage:Unless Lash somehow caused Harry to damage the car in such a way that it looks like another car was involved.
Of course not.  It's just that since we know Lash can make a fake person look real to Harry, and as we see with Hannah, can alter what people hear, we then get to ignore literally anything at all that we don't like, under the umbrella of "Lash made Harry think something else."
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Talby16 on November 15, 2017, 01:41:17 PM
Found it Rasins. It is actually Eb who mentions it as an unresolved thread at the end of the book when Harry goes over the events with him.

Quote
He grunted in the affirmative. "Don't forget the other loose end."

I frowned and thought back over it. "Huh," I said. "You're right. Who was driving that car that ran into me?"

"Exactly," he said.

Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on November 15, 2017, 09:04:28 PM
Of course not.  It's just that since we know Lash can make a fake person look real to Harry, and as we see with Hannah, can alter what people hear, we then get to ignore literally anything at all that we don't like, under the umbrella of "Lash made Harry think something else."

Some of us remain unconvinced she is not still doing this up to the present time of the books, fwiw.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: wardenferry419 on November 15, 2017, 11:59:08 PM
While that is possible; it could also be possible that Lash has assumed a different role in the universe.
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Rasins on November 22, 2017, 03:11:15 PM
While that is possible; it could also be possible that Lash has assumed a different role in the universe.

Would the shadow of a soul have an afterlife?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: jonas on November 22, 2017, 04:08:05 PM
Would the shadow of a soul have an afterlife?
Shadow of a fallen fueled by a mortal soul/life... Mmm, she's at least as malleable as the material she is created from, Doth not Dresden get an after life?
Title: Re: Proven Guilty: An update to my previous thoughts on the topic
Post by: Talby16 on November 22, 2017, 04:22:56 PM
Maybe Lash will appear as the "good" angel that sits on Harry's shoulder and dispenses words of wisdom.