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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Froklsnt on September 28, 2017, 01:13:14 PM
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The end of Small Favor makes it clear that Uriel was allowed to give Harry soulfire because it balanced out the first large pentagram, the practice one used by the Denarians to capture Marcone. Lucifer's powering of the pentagram was offset by the gift, to maintain balance. The power Lucifer gave for the second pentagram can't have been part of that deal, because Harry punches out Namshiel with the soulfire hand right before the second pentagram goes up, and Uriel cannot act to balance that scale until after it happened.
So, how was the balance restored for that second pentagram? Is there another balancing action that has been taken by Uriel that we know of? It can't be Ghost Story, that was to balance the whisper from Lasciel's shadow. The only other possibility I can think of was when Michael prayed over Harry to restore his knowledge of his blasting rod, but that doesn't seem an even balance to me.
Do we have other candidates?
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I'm not sure it's a straight action-for-action. Because, if that were the case, then Lucifer should have been balancing scales through the end of Changes.
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I'm not sure it's a straight action-for-action. Because, if that were the case, then Lucifer should have been balancing scales through the end of Changes.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the action as Uriel describes it is along the lines of, one archangel gave the Denarians power to do this thing, while another archangel gave Harry power to try and stop it. Oh, and turns out Harry gets to keep that power and use it for years down the line, while the Denarians only get those two shots.
Uriel might have only taken one action, but it's a longer lasting action that has gotten a lot more done than the instant of power the Denarians were granted.
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"You gotta think that maybe there’s a matter of balance, here,” [Jake] said. “Maybe one archangel invested his strength in this situation overtly and immediately. Maybe another one was just quieter about it. Thinking long-term. Maybe he already gave you a hand."
My right hand erupted into pins and needles again.
Uriel implies that another archangel entirely was responsible for the second act. Or the first act. Strictly speaking, we don't which Sign Uriel responded to, as Dresden only gains Soulfire after both Signs are lifted.
Uriel also says the other archangel responded "overtly and immediately." Mab then goes on to say how Uriel is by nature the most subtle of the four archangels, and that when Michael and Gabriel in particular operate, they like to be noticed.
The Prince of the Host is all pomp and ceremony, and when he moves it is with the thunder of the wings of an army of seraphim, the crash of drums, and the clamor of horns. The Trumpeter never walks quietly when he can appear in a chorus of light. The Demon Binder takes tasks upon his own shoulders and solves his problems with his own hands.
So if this other act was so overt, executed by an archangel generally less subtle than Uriel... then how come we didn't notice it?
I think the answer is simple: It happens somewhere Harry (and thus the reader) cannot see it.
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Uriel implies that another archangel entirely was responsible for the second act. Or the first act. Strictly speaking, we don't which Sign Uriel responded to, as Dresden only gains Soulfire after both Signs are lifted.
Uriel also says the other archangel responded "overtly and immediately." Mab then goes on to say how Uriel is by nature the most subtle of the four archangels, and that when Michael and Gabriel in particular operate, they like to be noticed.
So if this other act was so overt, executed by an archangel generally less subtle than Uriel... then how come we didn't notice it?
I think the answer is simple: It happens somewhere Harry (and thus the reader) cannot see it.
If we pull up the greater context of that quote, the archangel who acted "overtly and immediately" is Lucifer. Uriel is contrasting his own style with Lucifer's. And Dresden got the soulfire right before the second circle goes up, not after. He did a drive by routine on Namshiel while he was running full bore to get inside the circle. Using the soulfire hand, he holds Namshiel in place such that bits of the molten aquarium walls fly through him when the circle goes up:
Thirty feet from me, the walls exploded in light and hellfire... Bits of molten rock hissed through the air, deadlier than any bullet. Spiny boy caught a bunch of those. They flew out his back and left gaping, smoking, cauterized holes in it
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Uriel implies that another archangel entirely was responsible for the second act. Or the first act. Strictly speaking, we don't which Sign Uriel responded to, as Dresden only gains Soulfire after both Signs are lifted.
Uriel also says the other archangel responded "overtly and immediately." Mab then goes on to say how Uriel is by nature the most subtle of the four archangels, and that when Michael and Gabriel in particular operate, they like to be noticed.
So if this other act was so overt, executed by an archangel generally less subtle than Uriel... then how come we didn't notice it?
I think the answer is simple: It happens somewhere Harry (and thus the reader) cannot see it.
The "overt and immediately" Archangel is Lucifer, and his investment of strength was the greater circles that the Denarians used.
The other Archangel is Uriel, and he's referring specifically to the gift of Soulfire, which is why Harry's hand starts tingling, as a balance against Lucifer's power.
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And Dresden got the soulfire right before the second circle goes up, not after. He did a drive by routine on Namshiel while he was running full bore to get inside the circle.
You right, my b.
If we pull up the greater context of that quote, the archangel who acted "overtly and immediately" is Lucifer. Uriel is contrasting his own style with Lucifer's.
I disagree. "Immediately" makes no sense in that context. Immediately after what? In response to what? Not to mention, what about the other circle?
I stood up and jabbed a finger at the podium, suddenly furious, and screamed, “The Prince of fucking Darkness gets to cheat and unload his power on the earth—twice!—and You just sit there being holy while my friend, who has fought for You his whole life, is dying! What the hell is wrong with You?”
Lucifer acted twice in Small Favor, ergo heavenly archangels were allowed to act twice.
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I tend to think the second offsetting action was to help Michael survive to retire crippled, instead of dying in surgery.
The doctor who operated on him even commented that he'd done better than he realistically ought to have, given how badly he was hurt.
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You right, my b.
I disagree. "Immediately" makes no sense in that context. Immediately after what? In response to what? Not to mention, what about the other circle?
Lucifer acted twice in Small Favor, ergo heavenly archangels were allowed to act twice.
Or invest the same amount of power in balance. Which means some are just underestimating just how much it took to grant soul fire. What precisely he did to accomplish the feat and how it effected Dresden long term. Besides... he coulda actually saved back a 'dice roll' and used it elsewhere without our knowledge. ^^ see above for good example.
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Lucifer acted twice in Small Favor, ergo heavenly archangels were allowed to act twice.
I'm not sure that is accurate. Lucifer may have granted one gift - access to his power to complete their plan, which includes both the test and the real target because both were necessary to the plan.
Uriel responded with a more clever gift - giving Harry the ability to access a power source Harry already had but couldn't use - his soul, which allowed the access to be permanent.
That said, I used to think Uriel saved Lash and put a part of her back inside Harry which was the source of the soulfire and would give her a chance at redemption. The Bonnie reveal nixed that idea, but I suppose I could have been partially right and Uriel put Bonnie inside Harry as a second favor.
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Still assuming that there was a second favor to grant, what about if Uriel influenced Nic's decision to use Demonreach as the location? It set the stage for Harry to claim it as a sanctum, become the Warden, and, ultimately, save his life. Not saying that Uriel thought in exactly those terms, but he may have recognized that Demonreach needed a Warden, and wanted Harry exposed to it.
That kind of long-term thinking feels like Uriel's style. I'm not sure how he could have accomplished it—maybe an unFallen Angel whispered in the ear of a Fallen.
Regardless, it's fun to think about a Big Good playing puppetmaster with the bad guys for a change.
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Uriel is known as Heavens spy-guy/ fixer. someone Mab appreciates......... ya lol.
I kinda think this was a two-fold balancing of the books. one to counter the Denarions, the other to balance out Harry's using Hellfire being manipulated into using it by a Denarion. Uriel tipped Harry's hand, aka manipulated Harry into using Soulfire. especially when Mab's comment is added. "by your resisting the Shadow's temptation you have garnered the watchman's respect."
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The way I understand it, Harry was gifted soul fire because he resisted Lasciel's shadow and gave up hell fire as a result. That was the quiet undercover nudge, that is why Harry's hand tingled when Jake/Uriel said that. It is further born out by the surprise since then by not just the likes of Shaggy but of Denarians as well that he even has it..
The more overt act may have been to make Harry the custodian of the Swords to begin with.. Which in of itself helped to balance out a lot of things, Harry coming to Demonreach to begin with to try and rescue Ivy and Marcone, the temp appointments of Susan and Murphy as Knights when he went to rescue little Maggie...
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Uriel explicitly says the other archangel, Lucifer, invested his strength "in this situation."
Letting Harry hold onto the Swords is not an investment of power, overt or otherwise.
It's exceedingly clear what two actions Uriel is referring to in that passage. Why are we muddying the waters here?
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Still assuming that there was a second favor to grant, what about if Uriel influenced Nic's decision to use Demonreach as the location? It set the stage for Harry to claim it as a sanctum, become the Warden, and, ultimately, save his life. Not saying that Uriel thought in exactly those terms, but he may have recognized that Demonreach needed a Warden, and wanted Harry exposed to it.
That kind of long-term thinking feels like Uriel's style. I'm not sure how he could have accomplished it—maybe an unFallen Angel whispered in the ear of a Fallen.
Regardless, it's fun to think about a Big Good playing puppetmaster with the bad guys for a change.
That's a fun idea, but I'm not sure the timing works. Harry comments that setting up the containment circle they used on Ivy was no simple thing. It took careful planning. For that to be the second favor, they would need to make that decision after they left the aquarium. Doesn't seem like enough time to set that up.
Saving Michael, like Snark Knight suggested, seems possible, but it doesn't really seem commensurate to me with the amount of power in the greater circle.
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Uriel explicitly says the other archangel, Lucifer, invested his strength "in this situation."
Letting Harry hold onto the Swords is not an investment of power, overt or otherwise.
It's exceedingly clear what two actions Uriel is referring to in that passage. Why are we muddying the waters here?
I posted this topic because there are four actions here, and Uriel's quote only covers three of them. The first two actions are unambiguous:
- Lucifer empowers the Greater Circle at Marcone's Safehouse ==> Uriel Gifts Harry Soulfire
The third action is also very clear, but the response isn't:
- Lucifer empowers the Greater Circle at Shedd Aquarium ==> Uriel does ??
The second circle cannot be pooled in with the first action/balancing action because the gift of soulfire happened before the second circle, and Heaven is a major rules-lawyer about responding to an action, not preempting it. The question at hand is how the scales were balanced for that second action by Lucifer
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That's a fun idea, but I'm not sure the timing works. Harry comments that setting up the containment circle they used on Ivy was no simple thing. It took careful planning. For that to be the second favor, they would need to make that decision after they left the aquarium. Doesn't seem like enough time to set that up.
Saving Michael, like Snark Knight suggested, seems possible, but it doesn't really seem commensurate to me with the amount of power in the greater circle.
Depends upon the future actions of Michael to really measure that though.
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We have no reason to assume Uriel was behind both acts in response to the two circles, especially since we don't know what the second act even was.
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I wonder if Uriel expected something like Bonnie to occur. It is believed that she not only has all her father knowledge, but a good portion of lashiel/lash knowledge. So a wizard capable of soul fire and a spirit of intellect that is sort of a nephlim filled with angelic lore would have epic concequences for the future.
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Lucí gave the Denarians access to his power (they used it to super charge 2 pentagram). Uriel have Harry access to his own soul, which he can use whenever. Just like Lucifer doesn't get a new chance to exert his power every time Harry uses soul fire, Uriel doesn't get a reaction every time they use the pentagram. I feel like this is pretty straight forward
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I posted this topic because there are four actions here, and Uriel's quote only covers three of them. The first two actions are unambiguous:
- Lucifer empowers the Greater Circle at Marcone's Safehouse ==> Uriel Gifts Harry Soulfire
The third action is also very clear, but the response isn't:
- Lucifer empowers the Greater Circle at Shedd Aquarium ==> Uriel does ??
The second circle cannot be pooled in with the first action/balancing action because the gift of soulfire happened before the second circle, and Heaven is a major rules-lawyer about responding to an action, not preempting it. The question at hand is how the scales were balanced for that second action by Lucifer
Why does the second Circle have to be considered separate from the first? Maybe Lucifer's action was to grant knowledge of how to form a Great Circle and access to the power to initiate them, which was balanced by Uriel granting the skill to use soulfire to Harry. Two acations balancing each other.
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Maybe Lucifer's action was to grant knowledge of how to form a Great Circle and access to the power to initiate them, which was balanced by Uriel granting the skill to use soulfire to Harry. Two acations balancing each other.
But I’ve been running some figures in my head, and when the Denarians pulled up those huge Signs, they had to have a lot of power to do it. A lot of power. More than I could ever have had, even with Lasciel. Archangel power.
Lucifer didn't teach the Denarians how to access power. Lucifer was the power the Denarians accessed.
Lucí gave the Denarians access to his power (they used it to super charge 2 pentagram). Uriel have Harry access to his own soul, which he can use whenever. Just like Lucifer doesn't get a new chance to exert his power every time Harry uses soul fire, Uriel doesn't get a reaction every time they use the pentagram. I feel like this is pretty straight forward
Frankly, the fact that there are multiple people here all with different understandings of the same events tells me that this is the complete opposite of straight forward...
Anyway, I find it highly unlikely that the Denarians can now call upon Lucifer's power whenever they please with no further heavenly interference. I think there is an important distinction between the Denarians using Lucifer's power twice, and Uriel allowing Dresden to use Soulfire, which is fueled by Dresden's own soul/power. Dresden doesn't need Uriel every time he accesses Soulfire.
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Frankly, the fact that there are multiple people here all with different understandings of the same events tells me that this is the complete opposite of straight forward...
Man, I don't know how long you've hung around here yet, but there are people who can read a direct, literal description of exactly what happens and who is doing what and still come up with "interpretations" of that event that have little or nothing to do with what's described on the page.
Mostly I blame it on us all going stir crazy waiting for Peace Talks.
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Man, I don't know how long you've hung around here yet, but there are people who can read a direct, literal description of exactly what happens and who is doing what and still come up with "interpretations" of that event that have little or nothing to do with what's described on the page.
Mostly I blame it on us all going stir crazy waiting for Peace Talks.
As much as I'm pro theory, I'd have to agree with that in this case lol.
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As much as I'm pro theory, I'd have to agree with that in this case lol.
It is all a matter of point of view isn't it? ::)
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I think we are omitting one other possible action by Uriel to give aid to Harry for the twice hell-blessed power Luci gave to his minions. As Kringle says, knowledge is a power like any other, and one of the most pure and dangerous forms of Power. Uriel''s conversation with Harry, and the gifting of a book filled with wise morals and good philosophies, of good overcoming evil and the common man rising up to challenge the darkest of foes, could be the second favor.
I don't see Uriel doing anything that cannot net him some gains in the future. Harry was having a crisis of Faith and Uriel uses the marker Luci played to save a good man from forsaking his Faith. Harry was at the point of saying F-U to the TWG when Uriel arrived in humble form to help guide him to a better understanding of the situation. Wrath, I would say, is Harry's strongest vice. To help a man stop from succumbing to it and have him lose Faith, seems like the best use of a marker.
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I can't really deny that I wouldn't be theorizing about Small Favor if we had something new to process :P
And in going back to the scene, it is true that Harry gets soulfire before the second greater circle goes up. However, Harry has been feeling the buildup of the energies being shaped for a fair bit of time before he creates the silver hand. It would be reasonable to assert that Lucifer had already taken his second action (specifically, sending his power to Earth) before Uriel did. If you buy into this interpretation of events, then this whole debate is moot. Also worth mentioning was that Harry was about to be casually killed by Thorned Namshiel when Uriel made his move. In addition to the long term gift of soulfire, Uriel also got the short-term reward of saving Dresden's life.
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Saving Michael, like Snark Knight suggested, seems possible, but it doesn't really seem commensurate to me with the amount of power in the greater circle.
I'm not sure granting Harry soulfire was equal to the great hellfire circles on a joules of energy basis either. I don't think it necessarily has to be - the balance seems to be just an action for an action. Uriel probably can't do something even bigger than the provocation he's countering (like, say, personally obliterate all the Fallen subordinate to Lucifer), but I see no reason he couldn't use his marker on a smaller action if he thinks a nudge in the right place will do more good than a shove in the wrong one.
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I think we are omitting one other possible action by Uriel to give aid to Harry for the twice hell-blessed power Luci gave to his minions. As Kringle says, knowledge is a power like any other, and one of the most pure and dangerous forms of Power. Uriel''s conversation with Harry, and the gifting of a book filled with wise morals and good philosophies, of good overcoming evil and the common man rising up to challenge the darkest of foes, could be the second favor.
I don't see Uriel doing anything that cannot net him some gains in the future. Harry was having a crisis of Faith and Uriel uses the marker Luci played to save a good man from forsaking his Faith. Harry was at the point of saying F-U to the TWG when Uriel arrived in humble form to help guide him to a better understanding of the situation. Wrath, I would say, is Harry's strongest vice. To help a man stop from succumbing to it and have him lose Faith, seems like the best use of a marker.
Well, think about it, would Harry have been successful with Alfred if he hadn't added a couple of drops of soul fire to his blood when he did the first summoning? I'd say that is a gain for the future..
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It seems to me that pieces of a permanent solution is coming together. A wizard that is a know enemy of the fallen has soul fire, soulfire can really mess with denarians. That wizard has a scion child that potentially has access to the angelic of one of the fallen. So magics and spells that can affect the coin collection, as well as their names, sigils and history would be availabl.
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Uriel repeatedly points out that Harry sees things "from a different perspective" and have even called it "limited". Perhaps that reasoning applies to the readers too. As was pointed out above, the gift of soulfire has the direct, immediate effect of saving Harry's life. It seems likely that Uriel has a form of omniscience similar to what we've seen out of the Mothers, able to see many possible futures, contingent on the decisions of free-willed mortals. Saving Harry pays tons of dividends down the road, which is the true "weight" to use to measure the "balance".
With Harry's life along with the gift of soulfire, and all he will go on to do with both, the scales do appear close to balanced, even if you include both circles on the other side. You just need to see things more from the perspective of an angel.
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Okay, here is where I'm going to weigh in on the matter.
I think Harry's being granted access to soulfire IS a balancing of Lucifers 2 actions.
Here's why.
Uriel is a LONG CON player. He knows that the first time Lucy allows access to his power is not going to be the only time.
Further, he knows that Harry is now involved.
So, Mr. Sunshine makes an investment in Harry, both now and in Harry's future.
You have to think in balances.
Lucy dumped a 2 1 TON boulders on one side of a scale. But it has a very short run to the Fulcrum.
Uri dumps a 100 lb rock on the other side of the scale, but it has a VERY long run to the fulcrum.
The run is TIME itself.
Harry has his 100 lb rock (soul-fire) for a LONG time. Lucy's use of power is very short termed.
This puts me in a mind of what Vadderung said about changing the future being easier than changing the past.