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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Kindler on September 27, 2017, 01:35:14 PM
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I've been trawling through the collected Words of Jim for the past couple of days instead of doing the work I should be doing, and came across one that I don't see discussed often:
When Harry is battling Sharkface in the end, is that all in his head, or did everybody there hear?
And the answer to that is yes. It’s all going on in his head, and everybody there heard. Which, if you’ll remember the closing to book 1, because book 1 was written from the perspective of a guy who has already finished his story, um, all the books are really, they're him looking back, you get to the end book 1, and Harry says “My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, but conjure by it at your own risk” which, you know, there’s a reason for that. Figured I’d just throw that in there. Really, Harry’s one of those guys whose name is more dangerous to other people than it is to him, in a lot of ways, a lot of people would be vulnerable by doing that, he’s not. We’ll get to see that in the future.
Emphasis added.
Why would Harry's Name be more dangerous to someone else than it is to him? How would Harry's name make them vulnerable, but not him? Consider that, while the entity itself is dangerous, conjuring the Erlking (as far as I can tell, the most dangerous thing Harry has summoned thus far by Name; he guessed some of Mother Winter's names, but didn't have all of them) doesn't make Harry especially vulnerable.
I invite everyone to speculate wildly about what kind of powerup Harry is going to get by the end of the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. Is he going to become a modern day god? Merge his consciousness with the cosmos? Become the personification of magic? Keep in mind that his name doesn't change.
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Oh, if mother winter wanted to, Harry would have been quite vulnerable when he summoned her. The text already showed some vulnerability because he unintentionally hurt her in doing so.
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Oh, if mother winter wanted to, Harry would have been quite vulnerable when he summoned her. The text already showed some vulnerability because he unintentionally hurt her in doing so.
Granted, but did the use of her name make her vulnerable as well? Because Jim indicates that Harry's name doesn't make him vulnerable, but whoever uses it.
Still, I'll take it as true and assume that Mother Winter is the upper limit of Harry's powerup.
Could he become... Old Man Winter? 8)
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The way I figure it, any connection goes both ways.
Making yourself a link to Harry connects you to him, but it also connects him to you. Think back to when the Shadowman is watching him and Susan -- Harry's able to strike him through the spell, something the Shadowman didn't even know was possible.
Harry -- at least at the point where he's writing the books and looking back -- is too hot of a potato for most people to conjure by and summon safely.
Yes, Harry summoned the Erlking safely -- but that was with a specialized circle, and even then it took a significant act of will for him to survive the experience. Imagine if Harry's containment hadn't been perfect, or if he hadn't been able to resist the Erlking's temptation.
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Look at what is actually contained within MW on a hindu level, what she is an amalgamation of in identities, all contained in the mask of MW. Now imagine Harry, as Harry, containing countless... Say from the popular theory of Dark Hallow on DR. You are what you eat but what you eat becomes a part of you, So all that energy, all those beings are identified under the original. They became Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden in truth. Now imagine calling directly upon such an amalgamous unstable being with literally thousands of forms ad the combined might and willpower of all of them while keeping that Mortal spark of choice....
You CAN'T contain it, you can't stop it. Conjure by it at your own risk...
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I always took that as, if you conjure Harry, you'll have to deal with him. Probably an unhappy Harry at that.
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I think it is a hint at how powerful Harry will ultimately become.. Another hint was in Cold Days, the image Harry showed of himself in his head when he fought Sharkface on Demonreach.. He was not afraid to say who he was loudly and clearly, he was quite terrifying...
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I always took that as, if you conjure Harry, you'll have to deal with him. Probably an unhappy Harry at that.
I'll make sure to have a cold can of Coca-Cola and some Burger King ready as an offering next time.
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I think part of it is when you someone someone by their true name, you have to have the will to dominate them in order to require them to be summoned. That's why Mother Winter was offended and needed to test Harry to see if he had the will to fight against her will. Similarly Vadderung had to demoonstrate to Harry in Changes he didn't have the Will necessary to challenge the Lords of the Outer Night as was. Yet he was able to with the full power of Winter Behind him.
Harry has gotten to the point where he is able to defy his will against just about anybody and anything. Except possible Uriel and even thats coming close by his fear during Ghost Story at the nickname.
Naming someone requires power over them. Harry has will power a plenty. Starborn, Soulfire, Winter Knight, Warden. Shark Face had to repsond to Harry's challenge of will power and reveal his own name demonstrating that Harry won that battle of Wills.
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You know I wonder if it has to do with Harry being Warden, and you ending up on DR if you conjure his name. Perhaps he shares a connection with Alfred that grants a layer of protection.
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You know I wonder if it has to do with Harry being Warden, and you ending up on DR if you conjure his name. Perhaps he shares a connection with Alfred that grants a layer of protection.
I wouldn't doubt it's something similar to that effect. Certainly the Warden would need some sort of protection from evil primordial beings. Otherwise how would he be capable of capturing them and bringing them to Demonreach.
Plus Mab as the Queen Bee fighter of Outsiders, might give her key champion some protection against them.
Plus Soulfire from Uriel who is himself damn near close to a Primordial being.
Plus.. you know... STarborn. Definition of a magic user who can fight against Outsiders.
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It also might be as simple as the danger of mentioning him. If you aggressively say you’re looking for him, there are a whole lot of people that will jump up to slap you around and if you mention you know him personally, you’re painting a huge target on your back. I also like the idea that eventually we’ll see someone claiming to be him because they haven’t heard he’s back from the dead, so someone will show up calling themselves Harry Dresden...to intimidate Dresden.
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I don't think we will see that, but it would have been awesome :)
I always took that as, if you conjure Harry, you'll have to deal with him. Probably an unhappy Harry at that.
Me too, I tend to seek simple explanations.
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Me too, I tend to seek simple explanations.
But then we don't get to WAG!
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:) Ah yes, when the first year or so without a Dresden book has gone, my mind decided to play. It forgets simple explanations and begins WAGging. But mostly over what is in the books themselves and not the WoJ. I never liked to read much in the WoJ because JB could change his mind, or just mess with us :P
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I love WOJ's they're so tantilising and I would even speculate they're more reliable than Dresden's thoughts as they come straight from the creator. Take Demonreach for example. Harry was wrong about that. I even count the RPG booklets towards WOJ's, they give great background info on the characters as well as give you a rough comparison of powers and abilities. Even though the Maths does my head in.
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I love WOJ's they're so tantilising and I would even speculate they're more reliable than Dresden's thoughts as they come straight from the creator. Take Demonreach for example. Harry was wrong about that. I even count the RPG booklets towards WOJ's, they give great background info on the characters as well as give you a rough comparison of powers and abilities. Even though the Maths does my head in.
Many woj's slip in info unrelated to the question, sometimes for something we don't have the middle piece to connect it with, relying on intuition to see its relevance. Even has woj about his books being this way lol.
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It also might be as simple as the danger of mentioning him. If you aggressively say you’re looking for him, there are a whole lot of people that will jump up to slap you around and if you mention you know him personally, you’re painting a huge target on your back. I also like the idea that eventually we’ll see someone claiming to be him because they haven’t heard he’s back from the dead, so someone will show up calling themselves Harry Dresden...to intimidate Dresden.
If you walk around hollering for trouble; you'll going to get trouble.
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I'm not sure there would be specific consequences for summoning Dresden, other than a very pissed off Harry Dresden. What I do think we've got here though is a Chekov's Gun, so I think the real question should be who's the fool who's will pull that trigger? I've seen the idea on here before that it will be Time-Traveling Harry in Mirror Mirror. That's fun, how about some others? Here, I'll start: Mavra. She's probably the strongest black practitioner that we've met who's still "alive," besides Cowl.
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It does seem odd to me that he would use the word "conjure" specifically, which, to me, indicates that Harry could be summoned in some fashion (assuming the D&D school of conjuration magic terminology applies).
I don't think you can conjure mortals.
Harry and Bob mention with some frequency that mortal concepts of names aren't all that reliable, because we're constantly redefining ourselves. I could take it to mean that either A) a name written in a book, rather than from someone's own lips, isn't particularly useful for magic, and might have disastrous consequences if you tried to use it, or B) Harry's mortal mutability has decreased enough that his name is effective.
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I think it is a hint at how powerful Harry will ultimately become.. Another hint was in Cold Days, the image Harry showed of himself in his head when he fought Sharkface on Demonreach.. He was not afraid to say who he was loudly and clearly, he was quite terrifying...
Well, by the time Harry gets to the pinacle of his story, and how Jim handles power creep, the story will read "The End."
So, He will be a major badass indeed.
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I don't think we will see that, but it would have been awesome :)
Me too, I tend to seek simple explanations.
I'm with simple, too. Harry is a human that actually learns to exercises free will. By the end of the books, what Ferrovax does to him at the party with just a part of Harry's name Ferro won't be able to do with all of Harry's name, because Harry's free will will just say no.
Thus, conjuring by Harry's name won't get you power over him, it will just make him aware of your existence and possibly displeased.
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I'm with simple, too. Harry is a human that actually learns to exercises free will. By the end of the books, what Ferrovax does to him at the party with just a part of Harry's name Ferro won't be able to do with all of Harry's name, because Harry's free will will just say no.
Thus, conjuring by Harry's name won't get you power over him, it will just make him aware of your existence and possibly displeased.
That explanation makes more sense to me when you put it that way. The focus on the power of free will over the last few books especially may be hinting that Harry's powerup is just an expression of what he's already capable. Harry certainly has an awful lot of monologues about how he's mostly just naturally defiant and stubborn for their own sake.
It would fit well with some others' ideas that this book chronicles the Rise of Mortals, and that humanity will itself take over for Winter at the Outer Gates eventually.
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That explanation makes more sense to me when you put it that way. The focus on the power of free will over the last few books especially may be hinting that Harry's powerup is just an expression of what he's already capable. Harry certainly has an awful lot of monologues about how he's mostly just naturally defiant and stubborn for their own sake.
It would fit well with some others' ideas that this book chronicles the Rise of Mortals, and that humanity will itself take over for Winter at the Outer Gates eventually.
The thing is, most forms of power simply give one a wider array of choices,(including the ability to excersice those choices upon another of course) Harry, remaining somewhat mortal(for now?) shows he's simply becoming MORE of himself. Defining who he is by what he does, aided and abetted by his power ups. He's expressing his own nature as defined by his Will.
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I'm with simple, too. Harry is a human that actually learns to exercises free will. By the end of the books, what Ferrovax does to him at the party with just a part of Harry's name Ferro won't be able to do with all of Harry's name, because Harry's free will will just say no.
Thus, conjuring by Harry's name won't get you power over him, it will just make him aware of your existence and possibly displeased.
I really like this explanation coupled with what appears to be his precipitous power creep. In CD we see Harry resisting Mother Winter based off of his humanity. I seem to recall a WOJ where he mentioned that one of Harry's latest "powerups" is having his daughter as a part of his life. This being a powerup because, in my paraphrase, "You have to become so much more mature. It's like, 'One of us has to grow up and it's not going to be you.'" This plays in with Harry's humanity being the foundation of his prodigious power.
So when Jim has Harry do something insane (like Darkhollow on Demon Reach with the Black Staff) Harry will be able to utilize that power more decidedly because of how he has been shaped to be decisive and "mature" in character.
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It does seem odd to me that he would use the word "conjure" specifically, which, to me, indicates that Harry could be summoned in some fashion (assuming the D&D school of conjuration magic terminology applies).
I don't think you can conjure mortals.
Actually we have WOJ that Harry will be summoned in one of the books just like that. It might be the Mirror Mirror book.
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I think it is a hint at how powerful Harry will ultimately become.. Another hint was in Cold Days, the image Harry showed of himself in his head when he fought Sharkface on Demonreach.. He was not afraid to say who he was loudly and clearly, he was quite terrifying...
Agreed. That's how I always assumed it as well.
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I'm not sure there would be specific consequences for summoning Dresden, other than a very pissed off Harry Dresden.
Which, given that "a very pissed off Harry Dresden" has been capable of genocide since "Changes," is deterrent enough.
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Which, given that "a very pissed off Harry Dresden" has been capable of genocide since "Changes," is deterrent enough.
Technically, anyone is capable of genocide if somebody else builds a genocide weapon and doesn't keep proper track over where it's pointed.
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Technically, anyone is capable of genocide if somebody else builds a genocide weapon and doesn't keep proper track over where it's pointed.
But not everyone can find the will to simply press that button either.
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Technically, anyone is capable of genocide if somebody else builds a genocide weapon and doesn't keep proper track over where it's pointed.
Anyone astute enough to know and/or care about that technicality would most likely be pretty cautious about conjuring by Harry's name anyway. Such a person would already know that conjurations can be hijacked and used against the conjurer.
For everyone else, who might benefit from a further example of "Piss Harry off at your own risk," Chichen Itza is as good an example as any.
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But not everyone can find the will to simply press that button either.
They can if the right buttons are pushed.
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They can if the right buttons are pushed.
At some point there, they wouldn't be the ones pressing the button in the end either.
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I'll make sure to have a cold can of Coca-Cola and some Burger King ready as an offering next time.
wouldn't those two things need to be part of the circle you use anyway?
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I think part of it is when you someone someone by their true name, you have to have the will to dominate them in order to require them to be summoned. That's why Mother Winter was offended and needed to test Harry to see if he had the will to fight against her will. Similarly Vadderung had to demoonstrate to Harry in Changes he didn't have the Will necessary to challenge the Lords of the Outer Night as was. Yet he was able to with the full power of Winter Behind him.
That is why the scene where full Monty Harry mentally shouts out his full name as he confronts Shark Face in Cold Days is so significant. It is a serious message not just to Shark Face but to Outsiders in general... page 417
And I would be damned if I was going to roll over for some punk Outsider and his psychic haymaker.
The words first. Damned near everything begins with words.
"I am," I breathed, and suddenly the ice was clear of my mouth.
"I am Harry. . ." I panted, and the pain redoubled..
And I laughed. As if some freak who never had loved enough to know loss could tell me about pain.
I AM HARRY BLACKSTONE COPPERFIELD DRESDEN!" I roared.
Then a little hell begins to break loose... But the point is, Harry is roaring out his full name as a challenge to the Outsiders to try and use it to mess with him... It is a pointed warning that they do it at their own risk and really the first time Harry uses his name in this manner..
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That is why the scene where full Monty Harry mentally shouts out his full name as he confronts Shark Face in Cold Days is so significant. It is a serious message not just to Shark Face but to Outsiders in general... page 417
Then a little hell begins to break loose... But the point is, Harry is roaring out his full name as a challenge to the Outsiders to try and use it to mess with him... It is a pointed warning that they do it at their own risk and really the first time Harry uses his name in this manner..
That's a good point, and certainly a possibility. Could he also have been using his name as a focus to establish his will? Names establish connection, so could he have been using his own to establish a connection with himself? Or was it just an act of defiance?
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That's a good point, and certainly a possibility. Could he also have been using his name as a focus to establish his will? Names establish connection, so could he have been using his own to establish a connection with himself? Or was it just an act of defiance?
An act of defiance, yes, but more than that. Harry has repeatedly said how dangerous it is for someone to give out their full name. Remember Chauncy wanted Harry's name before he'd give him any information. Harry was very careful how much of his full name he gave out and how he pronounced what he did because it could be used to attack him. But in this case he is roaring it all out for all to hear.. While yes, in his mind, but if the Outsiders could hear or be aware you can be sure that others would be as well. Harry was making a statement, "here is my name, if you wanta do something with it, go ahead sucka, I dare you!"
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Another possibility.
Harry was roaring out his name because it really helped his defense against the Outsider and his attack to drive the Outsider's mind out of his own. The Outsider was attacking his mind and soul. Harry's name is an expression of his mind and soul. By calling out his own name, Harry was - in effect - heavily reinforcing his mind/soul against attack and simultaneously using that naming to expel the Outsider which did not belong.
It is an open question what the outsider can do with this name spoken in this context. After all, the name was not spoken "out loud". Previous comments indicated that naming was very precise and simply reading his name from his birth certificate (for example) would not help anyone. I am sure all of Harry's enemies know his full name. They just do not "KNOW" his full name.
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Another possibility.
Harry was roaring out his name because it really helped his defense against the Outsider and his attack to drive the Outsider's mind out of his own. The Outsider was attacking his mind and soul. Harry's name is an expression of his mind and soul. By calling out his own name, Harry was - in effect - heavily reinforcing his mind/soul against attack and simultaneously using that naming to expel the Outsider which did not belong.
It is an open question what the outsider can do with this name spoken in this context. After all, the name was not spoken "out loud". Previous comments indicated that naming was very precise and simply reading his name from his birth certificate (for example) would not help anyone. I am sure all of Harry's enemies know his full name. They just do not "KNOW" his full name.
According to Jim, everyone there heard Harry say his full name. Then went on to say that Harry isn't vulnerable like other people when it comes to knowing his Name.
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"So when Jim has Harry do something insane (like Darkhollow on Demon Reach with the Black Staff)"
Uhm so when Harry becomes the most evil character we have come across in the Dresdenverse...
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How many people within earshot of Harry when he shouted his own name knew about conjuration?
And how many of those people would have the nerve to conjure by Harry's name?
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I think we should slot White Night into this discussion.
In White Night, Harry uses Elaine's Name to connect with her, and then talk to her - but he only reinforced who she was, he did not somehow control her. Just not sure how to fit that in further.
As regards to conjuring by Harry, the biggest problem is the one Harry faces with the Erlking - containment. You can contain a summoned fairy, but humans have Free Will, and so can cross most circles. Add in his sheer bloody-mindedness, so even the common ways to prevent him crossing the circle (like, say, guarddogs, as used on Ivy) would not necessarily work - and once he's across your circles, you're in a fight for your life.