Mr Death: I could see the Night of the Living Dead thing, but Bob would have had to complain long, and loud, and pretty much interrupt the whole movie. And that's a good movie.I didn't mean so much that Bob's complaining would go into that kind of detail, but more more something along the lines of Bob complaining just enough to get Harry curious. If I were Harry and I realized zombies were a real possibility, I'd want to know how to deal with them.
Besides, if Dresden was partial to old monster flicks rather than the newer ones, I'd expect him to quote them more. Plus, wouldn't Bob have done the same for Dracula, or the Wolfman?Fair enough. Maybe they were watching one of the remakes.
It is possible that in the course of his apprenticeship that Justin would teach Harry something about necromancy. Since he was teaching both Elaine and Harry to be enforcers and neglected to tell them either the existence of the White Council or of the Seven Laws of magic, if it served his purpose, I could see Justin teaching them necromancy. But at this point we don't know if Justin was even interested in the subject..He did smuggle what amounts to Kemmler's personal harddrive out of Kemmler's lair. I think that indicates some interest.
I feel like he would have said something about Justin teaching him that stuff. And that's not something Justin would necessarily go in to before he has his hooks fully in them. Even for isolated kids like them, raising the dead is a well known taboo.That'd count for ability, but the knowledge to explain to Butters? He must have heard or read it somewhere.
I chalk it up to natural (or possibly unnatural) ability, either due to possessing a piece of Kemmler's spirit (not soul), or something to do with the complicated confluence of energies that went intocreatingbecoming a Starborn.
In Dead Beat, Harry questions Bob about Kemmler. However, Butters questions Harry a lot about necromancy – and Harry has answers. Without hesitation, Harry is able to tell Butters about necromancers, zombies, drummers, the effect of stopping said drummer versus the effect of cutting the zombie off from the energy, why human spirits are only used in necromancy, the two variables (impression and age) which make a zombie or spirit strong, and much, much more.
"Kill their drum."See, I could see a Warden or Eb teaching about the drum, teaching about how the Necromancer controls the creature through the drum. But I cannot see how the teacher could teach why the drum is important. To be able to explain what the zombie wants, what it remembers... that sounds more like the teachings that a master of the True Magic would give to his pupil. Even unbeknownst to him.
"Uh, what?"
I shook my head. "Sorry. A zombie... well, it isn't really a person with thoughts and feelings and such, but the corpse is used to being a person. To eating, breathing - and to a beating heart. That's how the Necromancer controls them. He plays a beat or some kind of rhythmic music, and uses magic to substitute his beat for the zombie's heartbeat. He links himself to the beat, the beat to the zombie's heart, and when the necromancer gives a command, as far as the zombie is concerned it's coming from inside him and he wants to do it. That's how they can control them so completely.
That'd count for ability, but the knowledge to explain to Butters? He must have heard or read it somewhere.What knowledge?
“Necromancy is the practice of using magic to muck around with dead things. Necromancers can animate and control corpses, manipulate ghosts, access the knowledge stored in dead brains—"
"They can also do a lot of really freaky things involving the soul. Even in the weird circles, it isn’t the kind of thing you talk about casually. But I’ve heard stories that they can inhabit corpses with their consciousness, possess others. I’ve even heard that they can bring people back from the dead.”
“You’re assuming that what the necromancer brings them back to is better than death. From what I’ve heard, they don’t generally do it for humanitarian reasons. But that might be a load of crap. Like I said, no one talks about it.”
“So. Those were actual zombies?”“Never seen one before,” I said. “But that seems like a pretty good guess.”
“Don’t I remember something about sewing a zombie’s lips shut with thread to kill them? Does that work?” “No clue,” I said. “But you saw those things. If you want to get close enough to find out, be my guest, but I’ll be observing it through a freaking telescope.”
“But how do we stop them?” I sighed. “They’re tough, but they’re still flesh and bone. Massive trauma will do it sooner or later.”
“Zombies follow orders, but they don’t have much more intellect than your average animal. You have to outthink them—or the necromancer who is giving them orders. You could also cut off the necromancer’s control of them. Kill their drum... A zombie…well, it isn’t really a person with thoughts and feelings and such, but the corpse is used to being a person. To eating, breathing—and to a beating heart. That’s how the necromancer controls them. He plays a beat or some kind of rhythmic music, and uses magic to substitute his beat for the zombie’s heartbeat. He links himself to the beat, the beat to the zombie’s heart, and when the necromancer gives a command, as far as the zombie is concerned it’s coming from inside him and he wants to do it. That’s how they can control them so completely.”
When Dresden talks about what a necromancer does; he doesn't simply explain it from an outsider's perspective; he goes in depth as to why the necromantic spells work.The problem with that theory is the earlier quote, where he says he's never seen a zombie before. There's no reason to lie about that to Butters.
That'd count for ability, but the knowledge to explain to Butters? He must have heard or read it somewhere.
The problem with that theory is the earlier quote, where he says he's never seen a zombie before. There's no reason to lie about that to Butters.
My theory is that Kemmler switched bodies with Justin Dumorne during his "final" battle and then assumed the identity of the young Warden.
Forgot when in the book he did it, but Harry did memorize the book of Kemmler. He says so to Mavra at the end.
I feel like he would have said something about Justin teaching him that stuff. And that's not something Justin would necessarily go in to before he has his hooks fully in them. Even for isolated kids like them, raising the dead is a well known taboo.
I chalk it up to natural (or possibly unnatural) ability, either due to possessing a piece of Kemmler's spirit (not soul), or something to do with the complicated confluence of energies that went intocreatingbecoming a Starborn.
Assuming most of those explanations were by way of Justin, there's a big difference between him explaining the basics of dark techniques and doing an actual demo. Actually raising a zombie would have tipped Harry and Elaine that he was evil, and risked them running away before he could spring the enthrallment plan (assuming Elaine wasn't in on that voluntarily).I don't doubt that Justin might have talked about it. Eb being the only source seems unlikely, and Harry didn't have all that much interaction with other wizards until after DB.
I'm still on the fence about the central question, but I wouldn't rule out Justin as the source of it for that reason.
Assuming most of those explanations were by way of Justin, there's a big difference between him explaining the basics of dark techniques and doing an actual demo. Actually raising a zombie would have tipped Harry and Elaine that he was evil, and risked them running away before he could spring the enthrallment plan (assuming Elaine wasn't in on that voluntarily).Griffyn -> what he said, basically. I didn't ask, "did Justin teach Harry necromancy"; it was "was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?" I mean, if Harry and Elaine learned this information from Justin as part of their 'training', it would teach them a great deal about the mindset and mechanics of necromancy, all without Harry really being confident that he knew a thing about them.
Griffyn -> what he said, basically. I didn't ask, "did Justin teach Harry necromancy"; it was "was Justin preparing Harry to learn necromancy?" I mean, if Harry and Elaine learned this information from Justin as part of their 'training', it would teach them a great deal about the mindset and mechanics of necromancy, all without Harry really being confident that he knew a thing about them.My bads then. I was misunderstanding what you were saying. I thought you were saying Justin was teaching him how to raise the dead. But him giving Harry some info on such types of magic that he might encounter, and Eb expanding on that somewhat when Harry shared what he knew, makes sense.
Because, let's face it: all of the information that Harry gives Butters is, essentially, correct. Harry might believe that what he knows may very well be crap, but everything he says is on the nose. So wherever he got that information from, it was a pretty good source. They knew their stuff - and like I said before, they knew not only how a Necromancer does his works, but why it works the way it does and how to go about performing it.
I mean, he wouldn't be the first Harry to have an evil Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher lecturing on dark curses, after all. :D
Justin didn't have Kemmler's book on the subject either as far as we know, it would also be unless to him unless he knew German. Remember it was so to Harry until Lasciel's shadow translated for him. Bob in full Kemmler/computer mode was a killer, I doubt that even Justin could control him, he nearly killed Harry. Harry is a powerful wizard in his own right, so it isn't a huge leap to see him being able to raise the dead if he had the instruction manual... I doubt that it is all that hard to do by a competent powerful wizard, that is why one of the Laws of Magic forbids itI think a contributing factor might have also been Evil Bob's mote of necro-energy, which Harry came into contact with very early on in the book. Grevane smelled it on him in their first encounter.
Isn't there some mention that Eb didn't really teach Harry much about the nuts and bolts of magic but more about using magic responsibly?General info about the magical community is what we're talking about. Most of what Harry says is generic info likely told to everyone. The only specific info is the drum beat part, which could have been explained to Harry by either Justin or Eb in as few words as he used with Butters.
Regardless, I'm not so sure how much raising Sue points to Harry having an affinity for necromancy. We already knew that Harry has lots of power to throw around with a weakness in control. Thaumaturgy lets him play up his strengths while minimizing his weaknesses. With that in mind, he's also got Lash in his head directing everything from behind his eyeballs. It's not just Harry having an instruction manual; it's Harry having an instruction manual with an angel on his shoulder warning him whenever he's close to making a mistake.I think Evil Bob said he had a knack for necromancy, although how much of that was smoke up a potential recruit's exhaust port is debatable.
My bads then. I was misunderstanding what you were saying. I thought you were saying Justin was teaching him how to raise the dead. But him giving Harry some info on such types of magic that he might encounter, and Eb expanding on that somewhat when Harry shared what he knew, makes sense.Mm, but that's not what I'm stating, either. Second Aristh's got a point on this; Ebenezer's teachings were mostly about using magic responsibly.
One of the notable exceptions was Elementary Magic by Ebenezar McCoy. It was the first book most wizards ever handed an apprentice. It dealt with the nuts and bolts of moving energy around, and stressed the need for control and responsibility on behalf of the wizard.and
Though now that I thought about it, Ebenezar hadn't handed me a copy of the book when he'd been teaching me. He hadn't even lectured me more than a couple of times. He told me what he expected, and then he lived it in front of me. Damned effective teaching method, to my way of thinking.
Ebenezar had been a mentor to me at a time I'd badly needed it. He'd taught me just about everything I thought was important enough to be worth knowing. He had been unfailingly generous, patient, loyal, and kind to me.
But he had been lying to me the whole time, ignoring the principles he had been teaching me. On the one hand, he taught me about what it meant to be a wizard, about how a wizard's magic comes from his deepest beliefs, about how doing evil with magic was more than simply a crime- it was a mockery of what magic meant, a kind of sacrilege.
Harry seems to have a talent for Necromancy. Has done some other amazing things with little practice such as Harry is a really good summoner. He seems to be able to call up very powerful beings demons, Mab, The Erlking, Uriel and others really reliably and easily. Harry most likely got some training about necromancy from someone. It was probably Justin, Eb, or the Leasidhe or a combination of all. I do think it there is a good possibility that Justin had a bodyswap done with him. It may have been Kemmler escaping death and getting a new body with different skills. Like what happened to Warden Luccio. Justin may have used necromancy, Eb being the Blackstaff may have used necromancy and Lea being his Fairy Godmother probably knows a lot about most things.
Another thing to consider is this. Jim has stated that wizards have a very curious nature when it comes to learning things. Harry has had access to Bob for a long time. It would make sense that he would have asked questions about that stuff to have a better understanding of it.
Also although Eb would not have taught Harry how to use the magic, by pounding the laws of magic into Harry it would make sense that he would also explain the fundamentals of that magic so Harry could recognize it if he saw it, and also so he could avoid ever doing it even if by accident.
Another thing you have to remember is that He had the shadow of a fallen angel coaching him inside his head.
Also, let's not forget that things were very specifically arranged so as it'd be easier to do necromancy. What Harry did was difficult, but not complicated. I don't see raising Sue as being especially indicative of any particular talent.
Except Corpsetaker and Evil Bob have both commented that he does have a natural gift for dark magic.
More or less. Plus, Harry has a major impulsive/righteous streak that can lend itself towards the darker aspects. Hurting people who have it coming. It could be less about a specific aspect of magic, and more a general psychological leaning.
Besides, how would Cowl and Bob know Harry has a gift for necromancy before he did it? (I may be misremembering when said statements were made)
The stain from dark magic I always chalked up to him and Justin. Dark magic being as much about motivations and results as actual spell casting. Fuegoing someone to murder them in cold blood vs in the heat of battle against demonic forces, etc..
Besides, how would Cowl and Bob know Harry has a gift for necromancy before he did it? (I may be misremembering when said statements were made)
I don't believe that Justin was training Harry (and Elaine) to be Necromancers. I think he was training them to be the strongest Wizards they possibly could be. They are both Starborn potential.
I think the last test was always going to be against HWWBh, for either of them.
Evil Bob commented on Harry's worthiness in their encounter, but I don't recall anything else.
Corpsetaker's shade said something along the lines that it was unfortunate he rushed into a confrontation, as someone with his innate gifts could have become formidable if he'd been patient.
Yes, and no, Justin was training them to be enforcers and apparently he wanted to control their minds and thus them. It is unclear how successful he was with Elaine, on one hand we have the images of her totally under his control, yet there are hints because she apparently was able to warn Harry and even helped in his escape depending on the account from Summer Knight and from Ghost Story.. However he totally failed as far as Harry was concerned. So the plot thickens, was Justin under orders from higher up to try and control them? Hints from Harry's flashback in Ghost Story suggests this, but to what purpose and to who's purpose? Because it is unclear if Justin's attempt was for his boss or for himself..
Justin definitely knew that they were both potential Starborn, and that's part of why he chose them. As for exactly why he wanted Starborn, that's all up for speculation. "Power over Outsiders" could mean many things, including being able to enslave an army of them, which would be great if you want an enforcer of your will.
My idea was that Harry called Elaine almost as strong as he is. Harry is in the top 50 to 100 wizards worldwide for his age group. So, I don't think it is possible Justin DuMorne could have found two apprentices that powerful by chance.
Ref: http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,48685.msg2258158.html#msg2258158
The above link refers to a post I made a while ago about Justin, Elaine and Harry.
I suspect that like Margaret LeFay, there is something important that we don't yet know about Elaine.
My idea was that Harry called Elaine almost as strong as he is. Harry is in the top 50 to 100 wizards worldwide for his age group. So, I don't think it is possible Justin DuMorne could have found two apprentices that powerful by chance.
We know from Blood Rites that Justin was an associate of Margaret LeFay. I suspect Margaret and Justin worked together to learn how to create a Starborn. After Margaret fled from Lord Raith Justin used that knowledge with Elaine's parents to create a second potential Starborn.
This theory explains why Justin was aware of both Harry and Elaine. It also suggest Justin may have been the reason both Harry and Elaine became orphans.
APG
I don't know that Justin was an associate of Margaret, other than they were both members of the White Council. He was a Warden, and she was in rebellion most of the time. It would seem odd that he'd be able to get her to take up with Lord Raith or that he'd be behind Lord Raith killing her upon the birth of Harry, though he may have been in on the killing of Malcolm.. What is interesting is while Harry embraced the White Council even though he was nearly beheaded by them and persecuted for a while by Morgan, Elaine has avoided becoming a member.. As to comparative strengths, we don't know how good a judge Harry is of that, she might be stronger. The times we meet her in the books she seems to have more control than he does at any rate.Ebenezer specifically mentions that Margaret took up with DuMorne among others, if I'm not mistaken.
Ebenezer specifically mentions that Margaret took up with DuMorne among others, if I'm not mistaken.
Ebenezer specifically mentions that Margaret took up with DuMorne among others, if I'm not mistaken.
I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates, including Justin DuMorne. After that, no where was safe for her. She ran, from her former allies and from the wardens for perhaps two years... She met your father. A man, a mortal without powers, without influence, without resources, but a man with a good soul like few I have ever seen. I believe she fell in love with him.
I just quoted the pertinent line in another thread, here it is:
The dinner did not include Justin, you're correct Rasins. Just Ariana and Lord Raith. But the connection between Margaret and just was established way back in book 6. I'm also in the school of thought that Justin "finding" Elaine is a bit too convenient to believe. He likely had a hand in her conception, one way or another.
"It is relevant," Lasciel said, "because of the circumstances of your birth -- because of why you were born, Harry. Your mother found the strength to escape Lord Raith for a reason."
What the hell was she talking about?
Thud-thump: 1:26.
"There was a complex confluence of events, of energies, of circumstances that would have given a child born under them the potential to wield power over Outsiders."
"Potential Wizards" seems to be a much broader category than "Potential Starborns." While we still don't know everything involved, Lash's line from White Night seems to suggest there is more to it than just Wizard parentage and the right birthday:
It's my read that it would only be achieved deliberately, that accidentally / coincidentally creating a starborn is highly unlikely. Hence, Justin probably had something to do with it. He was almost certainly aware of Harry being created towards that purpose, perhaps even involved in the original plan to do it.
Ebenezer specifically mentions that Margaret took up with DuMorne among others, if I'm not mistaken.
"Potential Wizards" seems to be a much broader category than "Potential Starborns." While we still don't know everything involved, Lash's line from White Night seems to suggest there is more to it than just Wizard parentage and the right birthday:
It's my read that it would only be achieved deliberately, that accidentally / coincidentally creating a starborn is highly unlikely. Hence, Justin probably had something to do with it. He was almost certainly aware of Harry being created towards that purpose, perhaps even involved in the original plan to do it.
Could be, but then why did he think he could control a star born?
Justin thought he could control a couple of kids, and bend them to his designs over time, leaving them open to enthrallment. And the more I think about it, the more the "enforcers" explanation smells fishy. More likely, they were being developed for their potential regarding the Outsiders, since we know Justin had those connections.
What if the enthrallment of Elaine and He Who Walks Behind being sent out have more to do with each other than has been previously reported? We know that HWWB is called via a ritual, a ritual for which timing is crucial. Perhaps involving star borns in that ritual yields another result that Justin was seeking. And perhaps, since his plan to perform a ritual with his apprentices fell through, he had no choice but to send HWWB after Harry, because the clock had already been set in motion.
Justin thought he could control a couple of kids, and bend them to his designs over time, leaving them open to enthrallment. And the more I think about it, the more the "enforcers" explanation smells fishy.
So, in this case, HWWB WAS the entropy curse?
It never really made sense to me either. If he wanted loyal enforcers, it would've been far easier to manipulate and brainwash than to enthrall them. Hell, if he had just ASKED Harry to help him, he probably would have, right up until he put Elaine in a brainlock. And his move against Harry involves a straitjacket rather than magic for some reason? The whole thing just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and seems like stupidity on Justin's part—and I never assume stupidity where wizards are concerned.
The straitjacket calls to mind Thomas' bonds in BR. Maybe Harry was to be the sacrifice in the ritual? Justin was skilled enough to perform two of the roles in the summoning, with Elaine thralled into doing the third, perhaps.The reason three were needed in BR was that none of the three had full wizard potential. Harry explains that a full-blown wizard could just do the whole thing himself, so Justin wouldn't have needed Elaine for that.
While it might be perfectly possible to isolate and brainwash kids to be loyal, such behavior is very hard to instill in a very independent minded and stubborn teenager who you have only worked with for 1-2 years. It might be enough to earn a significant measure of loyalty and trust, but not the level of control Justin might want if he sees Harry (or Elaine) as dangerous weapons even if he trained them for another decade as apprentices.
One reason for the ritual is that Justin is about to go public with Harry and Elaine. They will get introduced to other wizards, learn about the laws of magic, etc. At some point Justin MUST do this as he cannot isolate himself for decades to train them in secret. He is a warden after all and has responsibilities. If Justin was black council, remember they were working towards a war 30 years in the future (during Grave Peril) which means close to 40 years in the future when Justin had Harry as apprentice. That is a VERY long time to go into hiding or retain the blind trust of an apprentice.
While it might be perfectly possible to isolate and brainwash kids to be loyal, such behavior is very hard to instill in a very independent minded and stubborn teenager who you have only worked with for 1-2 years. It might be enough to earn a significant measure of loyalty and trust, but not the level of control Justin might want if he sees Harry (or Elaine) as dangerous weapons even if he trained them for another decade as apprentices.
Keep in mind that Justin did not come across as super charismatic or loving to Harry. Also keep in mind that Harry was willing to walk away fro Eb (who he was much more fond of) in a heartbeat when he realized that Eb was acting contrary to the principles he preached. If Justin was perceptive enough to understand this aspect of Harry's character, then he knew he would not be able to effectively control Harry's behavior while openly doing bad things.
That was more like top fifty to a hundred overall, and that estimate was before a lot of the Council's casualties and Harry's own growth. He's probably at or very near the top if you look only at his age cohort.
Recall that the reason Harry found out about it was that he skipped school. Justin had been working on Elaine while Harry was gone, and the set up that Harry found there was almost certainly supposed to have been cleaned up by the time he got home. It seems sloppy and hackneyed because Harry blundered into the middle of it.
If Harry hadn't decided to play hooky, he wouldn't have suspected anything until it was already too late.
True. What I wonder though is; why enthrall them to begin with? It's quite clear looking at Harry's memories with Justin that he was trying to go with old-school indoctrination at first- which is kinda a waste of time if you're just gonna mind-jack them.
That said, given that even Butters is apparently a better Wizard then him (in spite of having literally zero magical talent) Harry may well be over-estimating himself.
He's In the top 50 for raw power, but in terms of actually ability he's like, apprentice level. He just compensates for it with raw energy.
It's quite clear looking at Harry's memories with Justin that he was trying to go with old-school indoctrination at first- which is kinda a waste of time if you're just gonna mind-jack them.
Something must have happened to accelerate his plans...
It's a mostly-universal truth that people forget what they were like as kids. That's why a lot of kids in TV shows are written really unrealistically -- the writers don't remember what real kids are like, so they write them as either miniature adults, or as idiots.
That's for people who haven't been teenagers for 10-20 years. Apply that to someone who hasn't been a kid for 100 years.
I would find it totally believable that Justin just didn't factor in teenage rebellion.
That said, given that even Butters is apparently a better Wizard then him (in spite of having literally zero magical talent) Harry may well be over-estimating himself.
I think you are overselling your point. Butters is very intelligent and very creative in using Bob's magic. But that is a long way from saying Butters is a wizard in any way.
* The hard part of being a wizard is actually casting the spell. It requires skill, concentration, power and knowledge. Butters clearly lacks the power, skill and concentration required, although with Bob's help he has the knowledge.
* Most of the work involved in Butter's use of magic is Bob's, not Butters.
* Most of the magic we saw used is an application of magic that Harry and Bob has already worked out years ago. (skate board, potions, etc). It is applied in creative ways, but the hard design work had already been done.
Do not get me wrong. Butters is amazing. It is just not wizardry.
The way I look at it, Butters can read sheet music, and given the proper tools that do most of the work for him, such as a computer synthesizer program, he can create a song. He doesn't have the talent to write his own music or play instruments, , but it's going to sound nice coming out the other end because he understands the theory.
Harry can read sheet music and understands the theory, but he doesn't need the program because he can play the instruments themselves. He also has a good enough ear and sense of the music to improvise and create his own melodies. Some of the technical things that Butters understands might be lost on him, but he makes up for it with that good ear and improvisational ability.