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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Kindler on August 14, 2017, 02:39:28 AM
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Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm doing a series reread for the...severalth time this year in preparation for Briefcases, and I find myself thinking about Bob discussing first impressions. After Butters takes ownership of the Skull, Bob explains to Harry that the reason he isn't all that different is because Butters' first impression of him was when he was still Harry's Bob. We saw what he was like when he was Kemmler's assistant in Dead Beat, and from that and other things Bob has said, Bob changes based on the owner's personalities—but those first impressions really matter, and set the tone.
Now, Harry pulled Bob out from the wreckage of Justin's house, that much we know.
But why would he have done that? Bob's just a skull. Harry would have had no reason to go back for him—unless he knew what he was. And if he saw him working with Justin, what could he possibly have been like for Harry's first impression of him to be... so Bob-like?
What I'm getting at is that it's entirely possible that Bob was much closer to Harry's Bob when Justin had him than we might think—which says some things about Justin.
My question is this: how close do you think Harry's Bob was to Justin's Bob (because I'm basing this on the first impressions comment Bob has made, and if you don't think it's valid, then the rest doesn't really matter), and does this mean that we might have the wrong idea about Justin's personality?
For the record, I'm not trying to lionize a villain, I'm just curious if we've had a clue into his personality for a while.
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Sorry if this has been discussed before. I'm doing a series reread for the...severalth time this year in preparation for Briefcases, and I find myself thinking about Bob discussing first impressions. After Butters takes ownership of the Skull, Bob explains to Harry that the reason he isn't all that different is because Butters' first impression of him was when he was still Harry's Bob. We saw what he was like when he was Kemmler's assistant in Dead Beat, and from that and other things Bob has said, Bob changes based on the owner's personalities—but those first impressions really matter, and set the tone.
Now, Harry pulled Bob out from the wreckage of Justin's house, that much we know.
But why would he have done that? Bob's just a skull. Harry would have had no reason to go back for him—unless he knew what he was. And if he saw him working with Justin, what could he possibly have been like for Harry's first impression of him to be... so Bob-like?
What I'm getting at is that it's entirely possible that Bob was much closer to Harry's Bob when Justin had him than we might think—which says some things about Justin.
My question is this: how close do you think Harry's Bob was to Justin's Bob (because I'm basing this on the first impressions comment Bob has made, and if you don't think it's valid, then the rest doesn't really matter), and does this mean that we might have the wrong idea about Justin's personality?
For the record, I'm not trying to lionize a villain, I'm just curious if we've had a clue into his personality for a while.
We don't really know anything about Justin's overall personality, except for a few tidbits from Harry and Bob and Elaine. We know he was Bad, but you can be a Bad Guy and still be an easy going sort (at least on the surface, and before the corruption eats you entirely). I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Margaret was a lot of fun to have around, either. Sometimes it's easier to be a fun person if you're one of the bad guys, and don't care about the consequences for others.
About all we know from Harry is that Justin was smart, powerful, strict, and willing to use pain as a teaching tool. None of that is necessarily bad, but all of it is compatible with Bad.
Apparently he could also seem loving or caring enough to make it shocking and traumatic for Harry and Elaine to discover the reality. OTOH, Bob has told Harry that Justin had a messed up set of priorities, too.
We don't know how Harry and Bob started working together. It might make an interesting story, but we have no data to even use for speculation.
As for Bob's personality, it changes with ownership of the skull...but there are common threads, it's clear that Bob is not a total blank slate. For ex, he dislike being Necro-Bob, to the point of suppressing that part of his personality. When he had a chance to choose between Cowl and Harry, he chose Harry. Harry notes in Skin Game that spirits of intellect might claim to be just that, but in fact they had attachments and preferences and feelings.
So there are probably common threads in Bob's overall personality, the rearrange with new owners but don't totally reset from zero.
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I seem to remember that when Justin had Bob he still retained a lot of the Kemmler aspect of his personality. When Harry recovered his skull he named him Bob, and ordered him to block his memories of Kemmler, and with that that aspect of his personality disappeared and was filled in by that of the hormonal teenage Harry, hence the obsession with all things sexually connected.
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I wonder how it will bowed for Bonnie's personality. will ownership of her wooden skull and expectation of harriy dictate the personality. will the fact that his daughter interacts with the wooden skull help set up the personality.
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I seem to remember that when Justin had Bob he still retained a lot of the Kemmler aspect of his personality. When Harry recovered his skull he named him Bob, and ordered him to block his memories of Kemmler, and with that that aspect of his personality disappeared and was filled in by that of the hormonal teenage Harry, hence the obsession with all things sexually connected.
Harry never originally told bob to block those memories. It's almost implied he did it himself but I doubt his ability to.
*we need to look more far reaching into who and what bob is...
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bonnie is gonna be quite powerful on multiple sense we got lashciels memories along with harry's so bonnie is gonna be quite rebel and unless we have proper explanation we cant peg her in any power level but she is gonna be major player on team maggie probably as smart girl of the team
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Harry never originally told bob to block those memories. It's almost implied he did it himself but I doubt his ability to.
*we need to look more far reaching into who and what bob is...
I think Justin ordered him to suppress that part because evil Bob was dangerous - to its owner too. We saw that in Dead Beat when he tried to kill Harry and in GS, when evil Bob sort of betrayed Corpsetaker's ghost.
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Harry never originally told bob to block those memories. It's almost implied he did it himself but I doubt his ability to.
*we need to look more far reaching into who and what bob is...
You're right, I found the passage, Bob chose to forget everything about Kemmler, but then Harry in Dead Beat commanded him to recall those memories.. Then Bob nearly killed him, and then Harry commanded him to block forever those memories. But I think it is told a little different in Ghost Story.
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You're right, I found the passage, Bob chose to forget everything about Kemmler, but then Harry in Dead Beat commanded him to recall those memories.. Then Bob nearly killed him, and then Harry commanded him to block forever those memories. But I think it is told a little different in Ghost Story.
OMG OMG OMG! yes, yes.... I think this is reason I simply MUST make a thread about bob, compile everything I can. :) :D that's awesome.
You made me realize something kinda obvious in hindsight if you don't limit yourself to your current perspective(read- be open minded). Bob did something very unique that nearly everything associated with a certain genus can do, but which isn't readily applicable to Bob. Despite Bob being 'non associative' with the faith wave length. He did something angelic, he chose to rise. He flipped the one switch associated to true immortals :0 ? some corollary, working closely with wizards give bob a lot of contact with their aura, Kemmler twisted the very nature of his being causing him to run on Necropower. He had two distinct opposite personalities associated with each version, ect... I think I know what Bob did to E Bob maybe...
Anyway, He actually killed off part of himself and in doing so created the spirit of everything he shed. I think this is what all immortals do when they are downgraded from grace to mantle, break off a piece that makes up an identity and the rest is everything left over, break it down some more and we have a bunch of aspects of the same being spread across reality. Bob just did it on a smaller level with his own identity, Not sure if it actually 'died' then or just became it's own thing..
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When he had a chance to choose between Cowl and Harry, he chose Harry.
I’ve been puzzling over this for a little bit, and I don’t think that Bob really chose Harry in DB. He’s a spirit of intellect, without a free will of his own, and I doubt that Bob could assert his own preference to override the hard-coded rules that define his allegiance any more than I can flap my arms and fly. Rather, I suspect that this has something to do with the power of Names, and the fact that Dresden was the one who gave Bob a name. Bob doesn’t react at all until Harry calls him by name and states that he was the one to give him one.
I doubt that much of Bob’s personality is based off of Justin. Harry probably did see the skull at work, though likely never face-to-face; I don’t see Justin being the kind of dad who shares his illegal source of boundless knowledge with his apprentice kids, especially when he plans to make them his enthralled servants later. Harry probably just knew that it had a ton of knowledge and would be hugely valuable to a kid who needed to make it on his own. Butters, on the other hand, got to sit and question Bob at length and worked with him and Thomas for a better portion of a day – a lot of time for his personality to impress upon Butters.
Besides, Jim did say that Bob’s “annoying perv” nature was specifically because Harry picked him up when he was a hormone-charged adolescent. Other than being a know-it-all, those are most of his main personality traits.
The big question is, how much of Bob’s personality when he was with Justin is a result of Justin’s expectations of him as a tool of Kemmler, and did the dark skull have any influence on leading Justin down the left-hand path?
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I envision Harry digging through the ashes looking for Elaine's body, finding a skull, touching it, and discovering it talks.
If he never saw Justin speaking with the skull, it's personality but would be almost entirely the imprint of Harry's teenage subconscious.
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The thing is, Bob's wording in Dead Beat is strange. In regards to his knowledge of Kemmler, he said, editing out Harry's parts...
"I don't remember very much of it. [I don't forget] unless I want to. Or was compelled to. You don't want to command me to remember. Because knowledge is what I am. Losing my knowledge of what I new of Kemmler took away a... a big piece of my existence. Like if someone had cut off your arm. What's left of what I know of Kemmler is close to the missing pieces."
To me, it sounds like he had already cut off Evil Bob at some previous occasion. I know Bob says in Ghost Story that Evil Bob is the part he cut off because of Harry's orders in Dead Beat, but it also sounds like there could have been more out there already. Maybe I'm reading into it too much.
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The thing is, Bob's wording in Dead Beat is strange. In regards to his knowledge of Kemmler, he said, editing out Harry's parts...
To me, it sounds like he had already cut off Evil Bob at some previous occasion. I know Bob says in Ghost Story that Evil Bob is the part he cut off because of Harry's orders in Dead Beat, but it also sounds like there could have been more out there already. Maybe I'm reading into it too much.
I don't think so, by my own idea, I figured 'close to those pieces', when he accessed those pieces is when he gave EBob a way in. I don't think he was 'inside' him at that point at all.
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I don't think so, by my own idea, I figured 'close to those pieces', when he accessed those pieces is when he gave EBob a way in. I don't think he was 'inside' him at that point at all.
Maybe it's just the phrasing, where he combines "losing" the knowledge and "cutting off" to describe a previous instance.
Either way, he and Harry should have discussed the ramifications of the order.
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I generally took that scene (combined with GS) to indicate that Bob had carved off a chunk of himself on two separate occasions: once at the end of DB (per bob in GS) and once in the window of time between Kemmler and Harry owing the Skull.
I Suppose it's possible that when Bob was ordered to "remember" he somehow Summoned the originally severed pie, but that means that either Bob summoned his other half in order to "remember" or else EvilBob was already close enough to detect the opportunity. The former doesnt fit with the way Bob described what was happening or what he was being ordered to "remember", and the latter seems generally unlikely but cant be disproven.
||My current theory||
When Justin got Bob (hereafter "proto-Bob") he too was attacked by a creature whose had been "twisted" by kemmler and had to Order the SoI to Forget some and suppress other Knowledge/Memories of his time with Kemmler, just as Harry did. The only difference is that Justin actually cared about saving the secret arcane lore contained in the SoI, so his order didnt go as far as Harry's did and left the "pieces" that harry woke up in DB.
Thus we have:
Proto-Bob = All the Bob that Kemmler Had
Bob = All the Bob that Kemmler had minus the most homicidal parts, with the remaining lesser homicidal parts suppressed.
Necro-Bob = Bob plus the Suppressed Bits woken up
Evil-Bob = Necro-Bob Minus Bob, aka just the suppressed bits.
This means that there is likely a 3rd independent chunk of Bob running around out there. Unless Evil-bob somehow combined with the chunk previously severed, as I think Jonas was theorizing.
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I envision Harry digging through the ashes looking for Elaine's body, finding a skull, touching it, and discovering it talks.
If he never saw Justin speaking with the skull, it's personality but would be almost entirely the imprint of Harry's teenage subconscious.
Part of my justification was that Harry wouldn't have gone back for a skull he didn't know was valuable, but now that I think about it, that's entirely possible, and might have even thought that the skull was hers, snatching it up in grief, which would be a nice bit of trauma for teenage Harry.
Though Harry still thought that Elaine had betrayed him at the time, judging from his explanation in Summer Knight. Still, it's a pretty Harry thing to do.
The thing is, Bob's wording in Dead Beat is strange. In regards to his knowledge of Kemmler, he said, editing out Harry's parts...
To me, it sounds like he had already cut off Evil Bob at some previous occasion. I know Bob says in Ghost Story that Evil Bob is the part he cut off because of Harry's orders in Dead Beat, but it also sounds like there could have been more out there already. Maybe I'm reading into it too much.
I don't think you're reading into it too much at all. I don't think that Ghost Story Bob's explanation jibes well with Dead Beat, now that I think about it more. Bob says he cut off Evil Bob when Harry ordered him to in Ghost Story, and in Dead Beat says that he can only provide general information that the Wardens would have known about Kemmler, right? He then only provides broad strokes for his Kemmler rundown immediately following his encounter with Dresden.
So then how did Bob help Cowl pull off the Darkhallow? It indicates to me that the knowledge has to be there somewhere.
I generally don't like "continuity error" as an explanation, and Jim goes to great pains to avoid it. Even with five series books and four Codex Alera books in between Dead Beat and Ghost Story and accounting for natural human memory issues, I assume that it means that Bob can't fully lop off a complete part of himself. Either that or Bob cut off that part of himself later. Anyway, something's hinky about it, and it could mean that Evil Bob (or other, Evil-er Bobs) was (/were) already running (floating?) around.
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I personally think that Harry's giving Bob a name has had a far greater impact on Bob's personality than even Bob realizes. We've seen the importance of names with Lash and with Uriel . (With Lash, the end result was a distinct entity apart from Lasciel. With Uriel, he expressed actual fear that Harry's nickname could actually change him.) Perhaps Bob is now also defined now as a distinct personality which he didn't have before Dresden took him. I also wonder how Harry's naming the Archive Ivy is going to affect her in the future. He constantly says, "Names have power." I just don't think he really realizes what that really means.
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This means that there is likely a 3rd independent chunk of Bob running around out there. Unless Evil-bob somehow combined with the chunk previously severed, as I think Jonas was theorizing.
Errr what? Is the 3rd one the first cut off piece and bob and E bob are other two?
Well, what i'm trying to get across is something like this.
First Bob willfully(apparently) Choose to disgard not only a large chunk of who he was under kemmler, but a whole separate identity. Cause ya know, had to have a dualistic mind even under Kemmler to have had the thought separate from his Kemmler made one, Then of course he comes back.
So bob 'kills' a part of himself, and suppresses the edges connected to those supposed dead memories, which might mean very little to a spirit MADE out of necropower, out of the power of being NOT itself.
In DB when Harry asks him to access those connected portions, Bob is essentially accessing his subconscious repressed memories, his shadow. This ties into the whole subconscious shadow/mirror access for N and associates. He touched a piece of himself that opened him up for a spiritual possession by a consciousness/will entirely different from his own.... Bob just got Nemfected by Evil Bob and we all watched it happen and didn't get what it meant.
Later he cuts off that bit too. But for reasons unknown, perhaps because he was known to Harry, Perhaps because of cowl, Evil Bob didn't just go rest in peace. It all lumped together into what amounts to the ghost of Bobs past life/ shadow. His precise inversion. This could be how all such dual beings originate, i.e. fae courts. Such as it would give an in reality balance to the 'shadow' keeping Nfluencers at bay.
Perhaps Bob is now also defined now as a distinct personality which he didn't have before Dresden took him.
I think so, also, more than one or two wizards now know of bob and think of him as more than a magical springboard. I'm thinking Bob's basically a miniature deity as far as pure spirit is concerned. He's not a ghost after all. His identity as it is solidified the more people believe a certain thing about him or connect him to the same identity of 'bob' and effected by the skull prohibition, but harry proved the name trumps the skulls enchantments in power/significance.
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I’ve been puzzling over this for a little bit, and I don’t think that Bob really chose Harry in DB. He’s a spirit of intellect, without a free will of his own, and I doubt that Bob could assert his own preference to override the hard-coded rules that define his allegiance any more than I can flap my arms and fly.
He didn't. As long as Cowl had that skull, Bob had to help him, that's why Cowl could access Necrobob even in defiance of Harry's orders.
But when Cowl was no longer in physical possession of the skull, then Harry could try to reach out to him and win him back. If Cowl had gotten the skull back, Bob would have reverted to Necrobob again.
Lacking mortal Free Will doesn't mean you can't have any preferences or choices about anything, ever. It just means you can be absolutely bound to certain limits that mortals can not be. Mab is free to prefer Harry to Lloyd as WK, for ex. That's a choice. A given Red Vampire might choose to prey one person over another. That's a 'free choice'.
But mortals have greater powers of choice, and a greater meta-power to affect events by their choices.
That said...
That said...
Rather, I suspect that this has something to do with the power of Names, and the fact that Dresden was the one who gave Bob a name. Bob doesn’t react at all until Harry calls him by name and states that he was the one to give him one.
That surely did help Harry reach 'his' Bob, when that skull was lying on the ground, untouched by either Harry or Cowl. It might even have endowed Bob with a hint of true free will, like Lash.
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When Justin got Bob (hereafter "proto-Bob") he too was attacked by a creature whose had been "twisted" by kemmler and had to Order the SoI to Forget some and suppress other Knowledge/Memories of his time with Kemmler, just as Harry did. The only difference is that Justin actually cared about saving the secret arcane lore contained in the SoI, so his order didnt go as far as Harry's did and left the "pieces" that harry woke up in DB.
This makes perfect sense. Justin wouldn't want to lose the knowledge permanently, so it was there, but Bob was ordered to suppress it. Harry was the one who told him to get rid of it, so Bob was free to lob it off after Dead Beat.
I envision Harry digging through the ashes looking for Elaine's body, finding a skull, touching it, and discovering it talks.
If he never saw Justin speaking with the skull, it's personality but would be almost entirely the imprint of Harry's teenage subconscious.
That's what I think too. When the Wardens came, Bob must have told Harry to hide him. Harry probably got back to get him after he left Ebenezar.
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Errr what? Is the 3rd one the first cut off piece and bob and E bob are other two?
Thats the theroy anyway. Bob said in DB that he'd already purged a bunch of Kemmler-time prior to Harry. In GS he said that Evil-bob was the result of his lopping off a chunk /after/ DB per Bob's interpretation of Harry's order. This implies two splits, so as many as three Bobs. Assuming each chunk was individually enough "mass" to survive on it's own.
Well, what i'm trying to get across is something like this.
First Bob willfully(apparently) Choose to disgard not only a large chunk of who he was under kemmler, but a whole separate identity. Cause ya know, had to have a dualistic mind even under Kemmler to have had the thought separate from his Kemmler made one, Then of course he comes back.
Chose, "or was compelled to." per Bob. Minor nitpick, carry on :)
So bob 'kills' a part of himself, and suppresses the edges connected to those supposed dead memories, which might mean very little to a spirit MADE out of necropower, out of the power of being NOT itself.
In DB when Harry asks him to access those connected portions, Bob is essentially accessing his subconscious repressed memories, his shadow. This ties into the whole subconscious shadow/mirror access for N and associates. He touched a piece of himself that opened him up for a spiritual possession by a consciousness/will entirely different from his own.... Bob just got Nemfected by Evil Bob and we all watched it happen and didn't get what it meant.
Later he cuts off that bit too. But for reasons unknown, perhaps because he was known to Harry, Perhaps because of cowl, Evil Bob didn't just go rest in peace. It all lumped together into what amounts to the ghost of Bobs past life/ shadow. His precise inversion. This could be how all such dual beings originate, i.e. fae courts. Such as it would give an in reality balance to the 'shadow' keeping Nfluencers at bay. I think so, also, more than one or two wizards now know of bob and think of him as more than a magical springboard. I'm thinking Bob's basically a miniature deity as far as pure spirit is concerned. He's not a ghost after all. His identity as it is solidified the more people believe a certain thing about him or connect him to the same identity of 'bob' and effected by the skull prohibition, but harry proved the name trumps the skulls enchantments in power/significance.
Hmm, interesting theory. Not sure I buy the Nemfection connection just yet, but Im open to the possibility. For now it just seems odd that (if Im hearing you) Bob was carrying around a Dormnant Nemfection vector for some years and Harry "woke it up"? No argument against it, mostly since we have very little idea of how Nemesis works, though we've been promised more explanation eventually.
One side thing that may or may not affect your overall theory, but it's a string Id like to pull: I never considered Bob a"being of pure necromancy" in any of his incarnations. If pushed Id probably have said he was a being of normal Magic and so Life by definition, if NN spirit Energy more than actual Native Life. But he clearing has/had some capability to manipulate Necromantic energy....I odnt know man, I may have to go back to the taxonomic drawing board on Spirits.
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I never considered Bob a"being of pure necromancy" in any of his incarnations. If pushed Id probably have said he was a being of normal Magic and so Life by definition, if NN spirit Energy more than actual Native Life. But he clearing has/had some capability to manipulate Necromantic energy....I odnt know man, I may have to go back to the taxonomic drawing board on Spirits.
From what Bob explains Kemmler did to him and E Bob actually using Necromancy, he seems to run off of the different energy? That's always been part of what I assumed so screwed with Bob's sensibilities vs what he was as Kemmler's pet. Even the way Bob's eyes are portrayed to change, because he might not have a soul, but he has an internal energy. E Bob actually uses Necro energy against Harry directly. Only way to do that is to have access to it. Normally, i'd agree with you completely about him being a being of positive magic, but that's why I see the contrast with Evil Bob.
Bob was carrying around a Dormnant Nemfection vector for some years and Harry "woke it up"?
Sort of yes. More like he made it when he killed a piece of himself and later opened the way back(beacon stye, which is just a form of thaumaturgy really) by accessing a part of himself that was just like it. He, a 'living' spirit, accidently allowed himself to be possessed by an 'undead' spirit. if that doesn't make it sound more complicated lol. Basing it off of the fae being spirits of elements, things in the real world vs the GS supposition spirits that used to be aren't supposed to mess around with reality. There's something there, a thread to pull at to take your favorite phrase lol. Something that wraps up a lot of little things in the fae being partially of this world vs say... a purely manifested Demon Or creature of undeath. Demons can't die here because they don't 'live' here, like the need to chase Agatha to her own domain in GP. Also why Walkers are unkillable I think, they're not from here, they don't use rules of the living. But they might be using rules of the dead? the imprint of what used to be echoing across creation itself? all those Old Gods, literally the Old Gods are still remembered by the universe, still have an imprint to fill up. Hwwb4 and his 'deeper' but not bigger than Mab reference is a good example of necro keyed words applied directly to outsiders.
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From what Bob explains Kemmler did to him and E Bob actually using Necromancy, he seems to run off of the different energy? That's always been part of what I assumed so screwed with Bob's sensibilities vs what he was as Kemmler's pet. Even the way Bob's eyes are portrayed to change, because he might not have a soul, but he has an internal energy. E Bob actually uses Necro energy against Harry directly. Only way to do that is to have access to it. Normally, i'd agree with you completely about him being a being of positive magic, but that's why I see the contrast with Evil Bob.
Im more thinking that I have to separate my idea of magical energy from Spirits themselves. Which admittedly are made of a variety of things, but in the case of both SoI and Ghosts that's basically just Memories. Im thinking now that Spirits are perpendicular to the Chi/Necromancy spectrum, that they can use and manipulate both just like wizards can.
Sort of yes. More like he made it when he killed a piece of himself and later opened the way back(beacon stye, which is just a form of thaumaturgy really) by accessing a part of himself that was just like it. He, a 'living' spirit, accidently allowed himself to be possessed by an 'undead' spirit. if that doesn't make it sound more complicated lol.
Ok I can get behind that, as you say it should/could easily act as a thaumaturgic beacon. My only followup question is whether you think the missing piece found bob as soo as harry woke up the suppressed bits (ie happened in the basement) or if it only happened later on after Cowl got his hands on Bob and needed the full memory of the Word/Darkhallow? There's a lot of interaction with Bob after NecroBob's first appearance that doesnt make any hint of a possessing spirit or change in Nature.
Basing it off of the fae being spirits of elements, things in the real world vs the GS supposition spirits that used to be aren't supposed to mess around with reality. There's something there, a thread to pull at to take your favorite phrase lol. Something that wraps up a lot of little things in the fae being partially of this world vs say... a purely manifested Demon Or creature of undeath. Demons can't die here because they don't 'live' here, like the need to chase Agatha to her own domain in GP. Also why Walkers are unkillable I think, they're not from here, they don't use rules of the living. But they might be using rules of the dead? the imprint of what used to be echoing across creation itself? all those Old Gods, literally the Old Gods are still remembered by the universe, still have an imprint to fill up. Hwwb4 and his 'deeper' but not bigger than Mab reference is a good example of necro keyed words applied directly to outsiders.
I dont think so in several places (mostly competing theories rather than actual counter-proof), Ill try to got through them:
1)It was only ghosts that arent supposed to mess around with reality, and even that is only Mort's opinion (Uriel seems to think otherwise, based on his recruiting efforts), so I dont think it applies to other types of more pure Spirits like Bob (ie. always was a spirit as opposed to a remnant ghost).
2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each. Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.
3)While I do think that Black Magic taint is Outsider related and so is tangentially connected to Necromancy, I dont think Necromantic Energy itself is from the Outside; it's just the flip-side negative of an existing "positive" energy. It's in the same boat as Cold, Vacuum, etc. It's a Power defined by Absence.
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2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each. Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.
I haven't heard this before (I lurk a lot more than I post), and I think this is kind of brilliant. It can open up wider story potential for Mirror, Mirror, too.
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Im more thinking that I have to separate my idea of magical energy from Spirits themselves. Which admittedly are made of a variety of things, but in the case of both SoI and Ghosts that's basically just Memories. Im thinking now that Spirits are perpendicular to the Chi/Necromancy spectrum, that they can use and manipulate both just like wizards can.
You put chi in the same boat as necromancy o.O? Haa *clears throat* uhh, why/how? Might be an overall view on our perceptions of magic being different. But pulling it full circle with how I see Bob and his choice, how i'm starting to see everything with this 'choice' thing broken down. Everytime a wizard uses Magic or necromancy, he's doing a very small impression of rising and falling on the mortal level. Soulfire vs Hellfire, Magic vs Necromancy? When angels do it they're basically changing their food/fuel, the angel we've met runs on positive soul stuff, the Denarian fallen are largely seen to run off of the fear and chaos they create with their host's. So this stark contrast o positive forces vs negative forces I've looked at as "how does it apply across the DF? where is the toggle/choice back and forth?"
Ok I can get behind that, as you say it should/could easily act as a thaumaturgic beacon. My only followup question is whether you think the missing piece found bob as soo as harry woke up the suppressed bits (ie happened in the basement) or if it only happened later on after Cowl got his hands on Bob and needed the full memory of the Word/Darkhallow? There's a lot of interaction with Bob after NecroBob's first appearance that doesnt make any hint of a possessing spirit or change in Nature.
That's a fair question, and is probably as hard to say as, Is Cat Sith under N's control before or only after harry outs him and Makes N takes him entirely? I'd say, Necro bob still existed in part in Bob, but as soon as he manifested, Evil Bob was there, if only as a fly on the wall/whisper. I dont think so in several places (mostly competing theories rather than actual counter-proof), Ill try to got through them:
1)It was only ghosts that arent supposed to mess around with reality, and even that is only Mort's opinion (Uriel seems to think otherwise, based on his recruiting efforts), so I dont think it applies to other types of more pure Spirits like Bob (ie. always was a spirit as opposed to a remnant ghost).
2)I think Walkers are "deeper" than the likes of Mab because they are not subject to the branching of the Multiverse, that there is only One of each. Some have suggested the same of angels, etc.
3)While I do think that Black Magic taint is Outsider related and so is tangentially connected to Necromancy, I dont think Necromantic Energy itself is from the Outside; it's just the flip-side negative of an existing "positive" energy. It's in the same boat as Cold, Vacuum, etc. It's a Power defined by Absence.
1It doesn't apply to Bob, but that's my point, bob is a 'living' spirit in so much as he has some basis here, air elemental if nothing else. But not everything has a foothold here in reality. Here it get's harder to define, because early in the series demons were closer to outsider than later on it seems, so the idea behind it mutated slightly. Now it's a bit more complex with Goodman's proposed rent. Have to come back to this one I think...
2 Ah, but Uriel is just plain Bigger, upon bigger and BIGGER! lol. He can destroy whole galaxies.
Looking back at my idea Bob killed a piece of himself, I think angels are the complete opposite. Instead of Breaking down part of their identity or only manifesting inside reality in part, they are a mask/bearer of the entire power of an immortal. N can't get them in their 'whole' state because their already all their. all the pieces. Going on the Grand Cosmology make up,
A. There is only one of all outside/ immortals
B. Such whole beings are broken down inside reality into smaller mantles/identities
C. All smaller Identities are subject to the connections to their unborn parts. Nemfection, as the alloy of their nature changes with the bigger source.
So Hwwb4, Fearbringer, Nemesis itself, is all a result of parts of mostly the fae courts whose pieces were killed but not reincorporated.
I feel I did a really bad job explaining that one :*( let me know?
3That's what outside is to me, th opposite of existence but defined in spirit because of the way DF mechanics work. Outside is the very idea of being not, of not existing manifest(yea, humans cause it now lol). The connection there is those idea's start connecting to others, things that are not, things that used to be, Oblivion itself. It's an example of the power that exists OUT there just as Mordite is an example of matter that doesn't exist.
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I think it's far simpler than what you all have developed here.
When Harry pulled Bob from the ashes of Justin's place, I think he was whole. However, Harry's personality just isn't compatible with that of Kemmler's Bob.
I think this gave Bob the ability to wall off that portion of himself.
This is why Bob was so unwilling to give Harry what he "Knew" about Kemmler, but when ordered to do so, he did. I think the two incompatible personalities were represented by the cloud of random lights vs the ordered sphere.
When Harry told Bob to Never access those memories again, he walled them off again. But when Cowl ordered Bob to give him the information he needed for the DarkHallow, Bob realized that just walling it off wasn't enough. Not long after Harry recovered Bob is when Bob lopped off that portion of himself that became EB.
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I think it's far simpler than what you all have developed here.
When Harry pulled Bob from the ashes of Justin's place, I think he was whole. However, Harry's personality just isn't compatible with that of Kemmler's Bob.
I think this gave Bob the ability to wall off that portion of himself.
This is why Bob was so unwilling to give Harry what he "Knew" about Kemmler, but when ordered to do so, he did. I think the two incompatible personalities were represented by the cloud of random lights vs the ordered sphere.
When Harry told Bob to Never access those memories again, he walled them off again. But when Cowl ordered Bob to give him the information he needed for the DarkHallow, Bob realized that just walling it off wasn't enough. Not long after Harry recovered Bob is when Bob lopped off that portion of himself that became EB.
wow, I actually really like the idea that it was a fundamental incompatibility once Harry got the Skull, it's an oddly graceful mechanism. Not sure I believe it over my pre-existing theory of Justin acting out of self-preservation yet, but I like it none the less.
I have one issue with the overall as described: Bob very clearly makes a distinction between parts Walled Off and parts Cut Off in DB, he said he'd done both prior to Necro-bob being released . That doesnt run afoul of your theory, and it explains the line where he actually said "Because I didn't want to be like that" which is the closest he's ever come to a moral Choice that I can think of. That always stuck out to me, but it makes sense being the sort of inherited morality that he gets from his Owner (ever notice he's more altruistic with Butters?).
Fwiw, it would also imply is that Necro-bob, the uber-loyal kemmlerite part, did not have any similar incompatibility with Justin, fwiw. Do we actually know if Justin got any /use/ out of Bob? Necrobob sure seemed intent on getting back to Kemmler, specifically.
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wow, I actually really like the idea that it was a fundamental incompatibility once Harry got the Skull, it's an oddly graceful mechanism. Not sure I believe it over my pre-existing theory of Justin acting out of self-preservation yet, but I like it none the less.
Thanks. I have my moments.
I have one issue with the overall as described: Bob very clearly makes a distinction between parts Walled Off and parts Cut Off in DB, he said he'd done both prior to Necro-bob being released . That doesnt run afoul of your theory, and it explains the line where he actually said "Because I didn't want to be like that" which is the closest he's ever come to a moral Choice that I can think of. That always stuck out to me, but it makes sense being the sort of inherited morality that he gets from his Owner (ever notice he's more altruistic with Butters?).
I always thought this was because Butters actually appreciates Butter's Genius. But it makes sense both ways.
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Fwiw, it would also imply is that Necro-bob, the uber-loyal kemmlerite part, did not have any similar incompatibility with Justin, fwiw. Do we actually know if Justin got any /use/ out of Bob? Necrobob sure seemed intent on getting back to Kemmler, specifically.
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No. All we really have is Harry's memory of him and I don't even recall the story of Harry pulling Bob after the Fire.
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No. All we really have is Harry's memory of him and I don't even recall the story of Harry pulling Bob after the Fire.
hmmm., I thought I recalled Bob talking about their time together at one point, in the context of him acting as Lab assistant or apprentice trainer or something.
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I think it's far simpler than what you all have developed here.
When Harry pulled Bob from the ashes of Justin's place, I think he was whole. However, Harry's personality just isn't compatible with that of Kemmler's Bob.
I think this gave Bob the ability to wall off that portion of himself.
This is why Bob was so unwilling to give Harry what he "Knew" about Kemmler, but when ordered to do so, he did. I think the two incompatible personalities were represented by the cloud of random lights vs the ordered sphere.
When Harry told Bob to Never access those memories again, he walled them off again. But when Cowl ordered Bob to give him the information he needed for the DarkHallow, Bob realized that just walling it off wasn't enough. Not long after Harry recovered Bob is when Bob lopped off that portion of himself that became EB.
Not bad on theory, but it requires us to buy into a mechanic never presented, incompatibility of personalities. Bob's personality itself didn't change much from when Harry first met him to Butters, He's still very boob oriented. His associated... not personality, that's not the word... belief system changed slightly later on as mentioned but it makes sense being the sort of inherited morality that he gets from his Owner (ever notice he's more altruistic with Butters?).
There^. But I actually figured that more due to the fact of Evil Bobs existence. By existing in balance as an actual 'evil'(can't argue he's not evil when that's our accepted term for him) spirit he gives reason to cause a balance in Bob?
Notice though, Butters didn't change Bob here, Bob changed Butters, By rubbing off bits of Dresden's magic/soul from years of warm hugs?(he is Harry's first friend by early description) Murphy tells Harry "he's been you-ing I suppose." Maybe they grew together, but Butters was influence harder overall. Course being mortal things that influence can lead to natural changes easier than just a continual influence....
Isn't this why Bob has a pact deal on his earthly domain though? His rent is his knowledge and his pay is...? bits of 'lifeness' for lack of a better term.
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There^. But I actually figured that more due to the fact of Evil Bobs existence. By existing in balance as an actual 'evil'(can't argue he's not evil when that's our accepted term for him) spirit he gives reason to cause a balance in Bob?
For Bob it's more a Nice vs Mean spectrum :P
Notice though, Butters didn't change Bob here, Bob changed Butters, By rubbing off bits of Dresden's magic/soul from years of warm hugs?(he is Harry's first friend by early description) Murphy tells Harry "he's been you-ing I suppose." Maybe they grew together, but Butters was influence harder overall. Course being mortal things that influence can lead to natural changes easier than just a continual influence....
Isn't this why Bob has a pact deal on his earthly domain though? His rent is his knowledge and his pay is...? bits of 'lifeness' for lack of a better term.
No, his side is just that he gets to stay in the Mortal World, which lets him Learn/grow; "Shelter in exchange for Service."
I dont see how Bob changed Butters in any particular way, aside from granting him Power, which in turn gave Butters a far more important Choice as to how to use that Power.
But Im saying that Butters did in fact Change Bob per usual. Per WOJ he changed a whole lot less than he typically would, purely because Butters had already met the Harry-owned version, so that first impression sharply colored Butter's expectations. So it's far more subtle that Bob v. Kemmler's nero-bob or even presumably Bob v. Justin-bob, but it's still there. There's even a noted shift in color when the shift back happened in CD.
2015 AMA
Why does Bob have to obey whoever owns his skull? Is it because of the enchantments on the skull, or is it just that all spiritual entities must obey whoever controls their sanctum?
It's the bargain Bob made to be who he is, basically. The skull is essentially his contract--shelter in exchange for service.
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I dont see how Bob changed Butters in any particular way, aside from granting him Power, which in turn gave Butters a far more important Choice as to how to use that Power.
He'd been moonlighting as Bat-Dresden for a year and a half. He made him more like Dresden. From a frail scared mortician to the guy on the front line. Even from GS to SG the difference is noticeable, it was in GS the 'when I get a lightsaber' comment came up, 3 years/books later with Bob and suddenly He's the calvary for Dresden? Notice specifically from your comment, the power he gave him was knowledge of what Dresden knew and spells he used, he literally enabled him to take on the power of Dresden such as it was. Even his doubt in others(i.e. WK Harry) he got from info supplied by Bob that in effect gave him a trust issue Dresden had already possessed. Harry's Aura of magic transferred to Bob over years of close association during magical use(which is a key point, he was directly exposed to Harry's magic again and again) and genuine feelings via soul hugs and farther rubbed onto Butters over those 3 years.
No, his side is just that he gets to stay in the Mortal World, which lets him Learn/grow; "Shelter in exchange for Service."
Can you tell me by what mechanism or mechanic he's allowed to stay while Mirroring his holder? The mirror personality effect proves a connection between them.. The rest gets harder to correlate, But even without it rub off is almost certain just from the aura effect. I'm thinking it's deeper than that though. He's essentially offering advice in good faith for a dwelling here, the exchange rate is comparable to Goodman or Kringle doing good deeds to satisfy the Land Lord. He's keeping himself in the positive energy spectrum, Something Necrobob and his trickery does not do. Could he also be feeding off of their belief to make him what he is? Most probably.
Here's to Hoping Bonnie's existence will lead to closure on most of this. A new SoI is as good a reason to ask questions as a new character is for someone to be asking questions after all :)
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He'd been moonlighting as Bat-Dresden for a year and a half. He made him more like Dresden. From a frail scared mortician to the guy on the front line. Even from GS to SG the difference is noticeable, it was in GS the 'when I get a lightsaber' comment came up, 3 years/books later with Bob and suddenly He's the calvary for Dresden? Notice specifically from your comment, the power he gave him was knowledge of what Dresden knew and spells he used, he literally enabled him to take on the power of Dresden such as it was. Even his doubt in others(i.e. WK Harry) he got from info supplied by Bob that in effect gave him a trust issue Dresden had already possessed. Harry's Aura of magic transferred to Bob over years of close association during magical use(which is a key point, he was directly exposed to Harry's magic again and again) and genuine feelings via soul hugs and farther rubbed onto Butters over those 3 years.
I get that, the distinction I was trying to make is that Bob didnt change Butters in any fundamental way, all Bob did was give Butters more powerful Tools to use, allowing Butters to choose to be a Hero. Bob changed Butters no more or less than any Friendship might. By contrast, simply interaction and proximity with mortals will Change Bob (capital C) in ways that things like Bob are cosmically incapable of doing on their own (hearkening back to the Free-Will distinction).
Can you tell me by what mechanism or mechanic he's allowed to stay while Mirroring his holder? The mirror personality effect proves a connection between them.. The rest gets harder to correlate, But even without it rub off is almost certain just from the aura effect. I'm thinking it's deeper than that though. He's essentially offering advice in good faith for a dwelling here, the exchange rate is comparable to Goodman or Kringle doing good deeds to satisfy the Land Lord. He's keeping himself in the positive energy spectrum, Something Necrobob and his trickery does not do. Could he also be feeding off of their belief to make him what he is? Most probably.
Here's to Hoping Bonnie's existence will lead to closure on most of this. A new SoI is as good a reason to ask questions as a new character is for someone to be asking questions after all :)
The closest thing to a "mechanism" is the WOJ I just posted that said sepcifically it was part of the enchantments on the Skull itself, part of the Bargain he made with Etienne the Enchanter back in medieval France. Presumably then it's not a innate trait of SoI, though given that Bonnie's Skull is most likely based on a similar design, she may have similar forces acting on her.
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Notice though, Butters didn't change Bob here, Bob changed Butters, By rubbing off bits of Dresden's magic/soul from years of warm hugs?(he is Harry's first friend by early description) Murphy tells Harry "he's been you-ing I suppose." Maybe they grew together, but Butters was influence harder overall. Course being mortal things that influence can lead to natural changes easier than just a continual influence....
Since Bob has no soul, there isn't any rubbing off on.
As to Bob's personality being so similar to the Harry version of Bob and the Butter's version, Jim explained that it didn't change that much since Butters first met Bob when Bob was still Harry's. First Impressions and all that.
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I wonder if the deal bob is bound to could be augemented, that if his own primary sanctum is itself augemented and enhanced.
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Since Bob has no soul, there isn't any rubbing off on.
As to Bob's personality being so similar to the Harry version of Bob and the Butter's version, Jim explained that it didn't change that much since Butters first met Bob when Bob was still Harry's. First Impressions and all that.
Not true, Bob explains souls rubs off all the time, in warm feeling hugs. Harry describes Bob as his friend, Both of those are deductive premises to lead to a valid inference Bob has been largely effected by Harry. The name thing just gives it a structure to work around. Just like Belief in something is what gives it power vs the name that gives that power form. Then wizards aura's are described in miniature compared to say MW puts out, but is known to have some influence spill over, it's just considered Negligible usually. Years of close contact while Magic is actively worked around the same wizard and utilizing/tinkering with the wizards spells and enchantments him self as he does with both Harry(LC direct proof) and Bob(any SG reference) leads not only to direct contact with their magic but using it himself is a different form of magic than usual for spirits. That lead to a valid inference such things can have heavily influenced Bob.
Your first statement ignores all that seemingly? Of course we'll have to have a whole other thread for is magic, life, soul all essential the same positive energy in different levels of refinement, which I'm cool with stepping into that corner to swing it :) But is otherwise showing valid arguments for a theorem towards influence if not soul itself.
The second part references what we know towards it, but what we know is as always incomplete. Had not Harry actually Met Bob under Justins tutelage? An if not, is he not simply collecting a mask of identity associated with the beliefs of those who have known him just like any diety gaining multiple formative mantles? He up till it's expulsion still had Necrobob But was not known as him. He's gained more than one identity based upon 2 separate groups of people and how they've known/interacted with him. Harry and Co, And Kemmler and Cowls group.
*That's a great way to describe it, he released the 'mantle' of evil Bob he'd had, his alternate identity to become it's own thing.
So still comes back to how similar the energies that make up the various forms of life are, But i'll reference my metaphor of the human body is a distillery of soul into life(which is where we have an issue in my theorum apparently) and life distills into Emotions and feelings which are fuel for magic, are magic itself(which is proven)
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Not true, Bob explains souls rubs off all the time, in warm feeling hugs. Harry describes Bob as his friend, Both of those are deductive premises to lead to a valid inference Bob has been largely effected by Harry. The name thing just gives it a structure to work around. Just like Belief in something is what gives it power vs the name that gives that power form. Then wizards aura's are described in miniature compared to say MW puts out, but is known to have some influence spill over, it's just considered Negligible usually. Years of close contact while Magic is actively worked around the same wizard and utilizing/tinkering with the wizards spells and enchantments him self as he does with both Harry(LC direct proof) and Bob(any SG reference) leads not only to direct contact with their magic but using it himself is a different form of magic than usual for spirits. That lead to a valid inference such things can have heavily influenced Bob.
I dont think that was what he was saying. Harry (and Souled mortals, etc) can certainly effect Bob, that's established by WOJ. But it's one-way, Bob cannot "rub off" on a mortal in any metaphysical way (though normal social interaction is certainly there).
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I dont think that was what he was saying. Harry (and Souled mortals, etc) can certainly effect Bob, that's established by WOJ. But it's one-way, Bob cannot "rub off" on a mortal in any metaphysical way (though normal social interaction is certainly there).
But Bob could act as a transference device, a vector if you will, for 'rub off' to spread from wizard to magical deity to new holder. Like being a carrier for disease but incapable of contracting the full blown version yourself.(if we wanna relate it to another thing that lacks soul but contains memories and magic of it's own causing infection/affliction of any sort includes the athema)
Possible citation in how MM Harry has become more Kemmlery in his own skills and subsequent choices? ???
That's two cases of individuals following the path of choices set down before then by a version of Bob. Using knowledge and power they otherwise wouldn't have had without him. Even without the magical rub the effect is still quite sufficient. It's almost like he's an instructional primer on how to, follow the guide in up in an archetype.
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Not true, Bob explains souls rubs off all the time, in warm feeling hugs. Harry describes Bob as his friend, Both of those are deductive premises to lead to a valid inference Bob has been largely effected by Harry. The name thing just gives it a structure to work around. Just like Belief in something is what gives it power vs the name that gives that power form. Then wizards aura's are described in miniature compared to say MW puts out, but is known to have some influence spill over, it's just considered Negligible usually. Years of close contact while Magic is actively worked around the same wizard and utilizing/tinkering with the wizards spells and enchantments him self as he does with both Harry(LC direct proof) and Bob(any SG reference) leads not only to direct contact with their magic but using it himself is a different form of magic than usual for spirits. That lead to a valid inference such things can have heavily influenced Bob.
Bob isn't human so he has no soul... I think you are confusing what Bob said about souls and soul fire because he worried Harry by telling him using soul fire uses up his soul.. He then goes on to say the hugs and stuff renew the soul, that is the human soul.
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But Bob could act as a transference device, a vector if you will, for 'rub off' to spread from wizard to magical deity to new holder. Like being a carrier for disease but incapable of contracting the full blown version yourself.(if we wanna relate it to another thing that lacks soul but contains memories and magic of it's own causing infection/affliction of any sort includes the athema)
I really dont think so, because he simply does not ever get Soul, he cannot carry it can so cannot transfer it (even assuming Soul can go viral like that past the initial transfer).
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Bob isn't human so he has no soul... I think you are confusing what Bob said about souls and soul fire because he worried Harry by telling him using soul fire uses up his soul.. He then goes on to say the hugs and stuff renew the soul, that is the human soul.
AND he talks about how people swap bits of soul all the time by interaction which was why I pointed out Bob is considered Harry's long time friend. It proves an actual emotional connection for exchange of more than just magical aura, but rub off of Harry's soul itself... *cough*I really dont think so, because he simply does not ever get Soul, he cannot carry it can so cannot transfer it (even assuming Soul can go viral like that past the initial transfer).
Magic influences, magic comes from the soul, and fuels life, life in turn regenerates soul. Seems legit? an a point that keeps being ignored... Like with Lash, the change from soul contact is basically just acquiring the will of Dresden.
Mantles have no soul but they do a helluva lot of influencing on their host, the spirit, the memories effect changes when combine with soul as the soul itself is what is capable of change. So Harry's spiritual programming of Bob, via aura, soul rub, direct contact with his magic, naming him thereby giving him a framework of identity changed his programming, ect. Which in turn effects what the next guy is going to get from said program. To quote if both I and my brother possessed the exact same sets of data, wouldn't we come to the same conclusions?
In this case either way, Bob is that set of data, and Butters got The Dresden Cliff notes version. Causing him to literally 'go you-ing' as Dresden.
Bob's almost no different from a 'mantle' or other purely spiritual being except how the 'deal' works on housing him and where. Which of course effects the exact levels of interaction in the relationship without a 'host' but with a 'master'. Still a direct link to his owners being(that's why outside the skull he can still be commanded or made to listen to stipulations as Harry did with NecroBob) Anyone want's to refute that one... I'll make you a bet on it lol. ::) (for Kudo's only)
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AND he talks about how people swap bits of soul all the time by interaction which was why I pointed out Bob is considered Harry's long time friend. It proves an actual emotional connection for exchange of more than just magical aura, but rub off of Harry's soul itself... *cough*Magic influences, magic comes from the soul, and fuels life, life in turn regenerates soul. Seems legit? an a point that keeps being ignored... Like with Lash, the change from soul contact is basically just acquiring the will of Dresden.
Mantles have no soul but they do a helluva lot of influencing on their host, the spirit, the memories effect changes when combine with soul as the soul itself is what is capable of change. So Harry's spiritual programming of Bob, via aura, soul rub, direct contact with his magic, naming him thereby giving him a framework of identity changed his programming, ect. Which in turn effects what the next guy is going to get from said program. To quoteIn this case either way, Bob is that set of data, and Butters got The Dresden Cliff notes version. Causing him to literally 'go you-ing' as Dresden.
Bob's almost no different from a 'mantle' or other purely spiritual being except how the 'deal' works on housing him and where. Which of course effects the exact levels of interaction in the relationship without a 'host' but with a 'master'. Still a direct link to his owners being(that's why outside the skull he can still be commanded or made to listen to stipulations as Harry did with NecroBob) Anyone want's to refute that one... I'll make you a bet on it lol. ::) (for Kudo's only)
Im pretty sure this isnt the case, on the basis that Nemesis can Pass spirit to spirit, but it is not carried with a Mantle transfer. Mantles are something else, though I cant say what; I have two different theories: Mantles=Grace Shards, Mantles = Self-Sustaining Names (where a Name is 1/5th the Self along with things like Spirit and Soul, egyptian style). Still working on reconciling the two.
But I digress. Here's another much more mechanical reason I dont think Bob gets Soul from his friendship: That soul-swap mechanism you mentioned is the same one that provides the True Love Protections (if often less powerful than True Love), and that transfer is very specifically something that needs to be between equals, per WOJ. They may be friends, but they have never been anything close to equals. It's one of the noticeable differences between how Harry kept Bob (almost like a back-talking pet) and Butters that is willing to put more effort and thinks of him as a roommate rather than a magical computer/lab assistant.
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Q - your right. I was referring to the fact that as a Spirit of Intellect, Bob has no soul, and thus cannot transfer soul.
Jonas - I understand what you are saying, but it's just not the case. Magic does not come from the soul. Harry only started using his soul to augment spells when he was given that power by Uriel. Before that, it was all arcane powers. The powers of the universe if you will.
How the two are related, we could discuss and argue forever.
Now, as to influence, Bob is like a computer. He provides data to his current sponsor and of course that is going to help said sponsor to determine a course of action. It is not the same as the influence that say Harry had when he ate Kavros' spirit.
I'm not saying that Harry doesn't consider Bob to be a friend. We all know he does. However, it's not a lot different that someone loving their car and centering their life around said car.
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Im pretty sure this isnt the case, on the basis that Nemesis can Pass spirit to spirit, but it is not carried with a Mantle transfer.
can ya give me some references for that inference? Cause i'm not sure what you mean. Mantles are something else, though I cant say what; I have two different theories: Mantles=Grace Shards, Mantles = Self-Sustaining Names (where a Name is 1/5th the Self along with things like Spirit and Soul, egyptian style). Still working on reconciling the two.
Perhaps. And I do see merit most immortals are broken off of the same sources, but I see something else there too. Let's go ahead and make that bet if you like? The bet is, after PT i'll not have such trouble persuading ppl Bob's a mini deity :)
But I digress. Here's another much more mechanical reason I dont think Bob gets Soul from his friendship: That soul-swap mechanism you mentioned is the same one that provides the True Love Protections (if often less powerful than True Love), and that transfer is very specifically something that needs to be between equals, per WOJ. They may be friends, but they have never been anything close to equals. It's one of the noticeable differences between how Harry kept Bob (almost like a back-talking pet) and Butters that is willing to put more effort and thinks of him as a roommate rather than a magical computer/lab assistant.
Now... that's a good point. But it's making a leap between friendship and true love I don't think is there. Unless your saying Murphy and Harry were indelibly and equally in love in SmF? I thought that comradery and other things the soul is made of beside love itself would work, since 'true love' isn't really a formative of friendship itself.
Unless your also saying the soul is equal to love, but that's like saying soul is equal to magic isn't it? ;)
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Q - your right. I was referring to the fact that as a Spirit of Intellect, Bob has no soul, and thus cannot transfer soul.
And yet the atheme transferred an infection of the soul, but it has none of it's own? It gave a out a Mortal affliction.
Jonas - I understand what you are saying, but it's just not the case. Magic does not come from the soul. Harry only started using his soul to augment spells when he was given that power by Uriel. Before that, it was all arcane powers. The powers of the universe if you will.
Life comes from soul yes? Soul cannot exist independent of both life and spirit(hence why Butters soul starts fading in GS) Magic comes from Life yes? and if magic comes from life and soul grants life and living replenishes soul then I think either i'm doing a terrible job explaining this or you don't get what i'm saying. I could throw in other references of 'more of what you already are', ect. But either you get it or you don't. Positve energy is all positive energy in different forms of refinement.
How the two are related, we could discuss and argue forever.
Now, as to influence, Bob is like a computer. He provides data to his current sponsor and of course that is going to help said sponsor to determine a course of action. It is not the same as the influence that say Harry had when he ate Kavros' spirit.
I'm not saying that Harry doesn't consider Bob to be a friend. We all know he does. However, it's not a lot different that someone loving their car and centering their life around said car.
Except the car can't give you advice based on it's programming that would then cause you to decide your course. unless you have gps...
AND You keep providing me with the limit of what we do know while ignoring any loose ends I'm tying neatly together. Kravos, let's look at that influence, Kravos took a big bite right outta Harry's chi and in effect took on not only his form but his magic. He was influenced, while not overwhelmingly, the you are what you eat came into play.. Now let's look at Bob, simply by touching the skull he takes on the persona of he who touched it, he who choses to do so. Becoming Influenced to be more like them. That action of touching the skull constitutes taking up the pact and that direct overwhelming influence shows he is actually connected directly to their core. Saying that he's leaching off his life/or soul isn't a big logical leap. Nor is the idea that the original bargain that 'let Bob be who he was' could have been formed elsewhere than a skull.
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can ya give me some references for that inference? Cause i'm not sure what you mean.
Maeve was Nemfected, not the Winter Lady Mantle, as evidenced by Molly not being Nemfected when the mantle took her. Ditto Aurora and Lily. Had Nemfection been capable of sticking to the mantle, then Mab would have already long since Lost and non of the event of Cold Days would have been needed.
Perhaps. And I do see merit most immortals are broken off of the same sources, but I see something else there too. Let's go ahead and make that bet if you like? The bet is, after PT i'll not have such trouble persuading ppl Bob's a mini deity :)
Not a fair bet, that only happens if we get a new and/or more specific definition of "diety"
Fwiw though, I have no particularissues with calling Bob a mini-diety, it's calling him a souled being that I disagree with.
Now... that's a good point. But it's making a leap between friendship and true love I don't think is there. Unless your saying Murphy and Harry were indelibly and equally in love in SmF? I thought that comradery and other things the soul is made of beside love itself would work, since 'true love' isn't really a formative of friendship itself.
Unless your also saying the soul is equal to love, but that's like saying soul is equal to magic isn't it? ;)
Im not equating Friendship and True Love, though I do personally think they could be called degrees of the same thing. What I am doing is attributing the the two instances of Soul-Chunk exchange to the same mechanism (which was the context they were introduced by bob, back in WN), and by extension applying the same limitations to both. Soul Exchanged in a moment of True Love keeps the extra energies of True Love, but it's the Soul exchange that makes it a lasting protection on a person (by contrast Object absorb that energy via some other mechanism). And thus Id argue that /any/ Soul Exchange requires a two-way "exchange" and by extension that the two need to be equals. I could be wrong though, this is more based on impressions than evidence.
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And yet the atheme transferred an infection of the soul, but it has none of it's own? It gave a out a Mortal affliction.
No, it hasn't. In fact it has very notably not yet infected anyone /with/ a Soul, let alone infected a Soul directly.
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Maeve was Nemfected, not the Winter Lady Mantle, as evidenced by Molly not being Nemfected when the mantle took her. Ditto Aurora and Lily. Had Nemfection been capable of sticking to the mantle, then Mab would have already long since Lost and non of the event of Cold Days would have been needed.
Not a fair bet, that only happens if we get a new and/or more specific definition of "diety"
Can we prove the Mantle isn't Nfected? I figured that's why Mab bothered to cleanse the WK mantle, it would have went through her to get back to Harry without a cleansing otherwise.. Look at it this way, The mantle is Nfected/off balance but the host is not. That's the whole point to having a mantle yes? The ability to resist as the mortal host, add on starborn and then you can resist and remold the mantle you wear. And why Cat Sith failed out? He's the thing itself, maybe a Eldest mantle but no kitty underneath. Lets reword it then, That the formative difference between Bob and a Mantle is Bob's 'deal' is different, the Mantle lives in the Host. The connections the same, the influence is the same, it's all the same except Bob is defined differently.
Fwiw though, I have no particularissues with calling Bob a mini-diety, it's calling him a souled being that I disagree with.
It's more toward Magic/soul connection. It's where Nemesis slips in and changes imo. Lash had no soul but changed based on transference from Dresden, transference that largely happened because of the relationship communicating with each other NOT because she simply lived in his head.(what means fwiw anyway?)
Im not equating Friendship and True Love, though I do personally think they could be called degrees of the same thing. What I am doing is attributing the the two instances of Soul-Chunk exchange to the same mechanism (which was the context they were introduced by bob, back in WN), and by extension applying the same limitations to both. Soul Exchanged in a moment of True Love keeps the extra energies of True Love, but it's the Soul exchange that makes it a lasting protection on a person (by contrast Object absorb that energy via some other mechanism). And thus Id argue that /any/ Soul Exchange requires a two-way "exchange" and by extension that the two need to be equals. I could be wrong though, this is more based on impressions than evidence.
I wanna disagree, but I can't remember the precise wordings when they were introduced lol.
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No, it hasn't. In fact it has very notably not yet infected anyone /with/ a Soul, let alone infected a Soul directly.
See above, it's the soul that's the mortal affliction on theses soulless immortals. It's the soul that carries it. they lack soul intentionally, (if all mantles are broken down from graces and angels are ALL soul.. then what did they remove from the Grace to just get a mantle? the soul) i'd have to go back to scratch and come at this from the collective subconscious, Nemesis Mirrors your shadow, ect theorem... do you really want me to do that? :( I get tired of running uphill sometimes.
*we definitely need to have a discussion an mantles and immortals you and me. work out some detail together :)
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Can we prove the Mantle isn't Nfected? I figured that's why Mab bothered to cleanse the WK mantle, it would have went through her to get back to Harry without a cleansing otherwise.. Look at it this way, The mantle is Nfected/off balance but the host is not. That's the whole point to having a mantle yes? The ability to resist as the mortal host, add on starborn and then you can resist and remold the mantle you wear. And why Cat Sith failed out? He's the thing itself, maybe a Eldest mantle but no kitty underneath. Lets reword it then, That the formative difference between Bob and a Mantle is Bob's 'deal' is different, the Mantle lives in the Host. The connections the same, the influence is the same, it's all the same except Bob is defined differently.
It's more toward Magic/soul connection. It's where Nemesis slips in and changes imo. Lash had no soul but changed based on transference from Dresden, transference that largely happened because of the relationship communicating with each other NOT because she simply lived in his head.(what means fwiw anyway?)I wanna disagree, but I can't remember the precise wordings when they were introduced lol.
Are you talking about it passing through the Stone Table?
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See above, it's the soul that's the mortal affliction on theses soulless immortals. It's the soul that carries it. they lack soul intentionally, (if all mantles are broken down from graces and angels are ALL soul.. then what did they remove from the Grace to just get a mantle? the soul) i'd have to go back to scratch and come at this from the collective subconscious, Nemesis Mirrors your shadow, ect theorem... do you really want me to do that? :( I get tired of running uphill sometimes.
*we definitely need to have a discussion an mantles and immortals you and me. work out some detail together :)
What Mortal Affliction are you talking about, because the only person that ever used that phrase was Maeve, in reference to "mortal notions. Good, evil, love. All those other things your kind natter on about" and in a conversation where we Know she was Lying.
Can we prove the Mantle isn't Nfected? I figured that's why Mab bothered to cleanse the WK mantle, it would have went through her to get back to Harry without a cleansing otherwise.. Look at it this way, The mantle is Nfected/off balance but the host is not. That's the whole point to having a mantle yes? The ability to resist as the mortal host, add on starborn and then you can resist and remold the mantle you wear.
I mean, we have evidence in the fact that it didnt Nemfect Molly. We've even been inside her head since then, with no sinister indications. Short of Jim or Rashid stating it directly, I dont know what more you'd need.
And why Cat Sith failed out? He's the thing itself, maybe a Eldest mantle but no kitty underneath. Lets reword it then, That the formative difference between Bob and a Mantle is Bob's 'deal' is different, the Mantle lives in the Host. The connections the same, the influence is the same, it's all the same except Bob is defined differently.
I dont think this can be the case. Per WOJ the Eldest is a Mantle, specifically in reference to Cat Sith, and it would pass to the next Eldest. So that means that Eldest does not mean Progenitor, and so the Current eldest has to have formerly been a "kitty underneath", no?
I wanna disagree, but I can't remember the precise wordings when they were introduced lol.
"Part of my soul is gone and I'm not supposed to be worried about that?" I demanded.
"Happens all the time," Bob said. "You shared a bunch of yours with Susan, and she with you. It's what protected you from Lara Raith. You and Murphy swapped some pretty recently, looks like—you must have gotten a hug or something. Honestly, Harry, you really ought to bang her and get it over wi—"
I reached under the worktable, drew out a claw hammer, and gave Bob a pointed look.
"Um, right," he said. "Back to business. Uh, your soul. You give away pieces of yourself all the time. Everyone does. Some of it goes out with your magic, too. It grows back. Relax, boss."
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Are you talking about it passing through the Stone Table?
Yes, according to SK when the knight passes it simply goes to the nearest reflection of itself, one of the queens. So it woulda went right to her and then she could bestow it on Harry. But instead she involves the stone table and a knife of credible pedigree for.. and I can't remember precisely how it was wojed, events of proportionally larger importance. Sure she ate him up into it gaining a bit of power to Winter, but then what's the dagger for?
Looongg time ago I theorized it actually was originally used against N infecting Jason through the golden fleece. He left his wife and family for riches wealth and power and then Medea killed him and made him eat his children... If she's not the bad guy in that there has to be something to it right lol?
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See, I don't recall the Stone Table being part of Mab giving Harry the Mantle. I don't recall the mantle going THOUGH the table. I do recall Slate's blood going into the table and his lifeforce going into it.
But then I think Mab, the current owner of the Table that time, used Slate's life-force to heal Harry. The Mantle itself went to Mab (even though we didn't see a smokey thing moving like we did with the ladies mantles) and Mab bestowed it on Harry.
Now, let's assume it did go though the Table and the table filtered out the Nemfection. Where did that waste product go? Is it still in the Stone table? Is the Stone Table now infected?
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What Mortal Affliction are you talking about, because the only person that ever used that phrase was Maeve, in reference to "mortal notions. Good, evil, love. All those other things your kind natter on about" and in a conversation where we Know she was Lying.
Where she was discovering it actually, near the end she lies for first time, you can tell cause the ability surprises her. Also Woj about spending to long with humans and we did it..(i'll look, I know it's pretty old, should be just off the main list still)
I mean, we have evidence in the fact that it didnt Nemfect Molly. We've even been inside her head since then, with no sinister indications. Short of Jim or Rashid stating it directly, I dont know what more you'd need.
And why Cat Sith failed out? He's the thing itself, maybe a Eldest mantle but no kitty underneath. Lets reword it then, That the formative difference between Bob and a Mantle is Bob's 'deal' is different, the Mantle lives in the Host. The connections the same, the influence is the same, it's all the same except Bob is defined differently.
I dont think this can be the case. Per WOJ the Eldest is a Mantle, specifically in reference to Cat Sith, and it would pass to the next Eldest. So that means that Eldest does not mean Progenitor, and so the Current eldest has to have formerly been a "kitty underneath", no?
I'm goin g to call back your previous statement for a more thorough look, get back to above later..
I meant no mortal being, he was always a malk, always fae. He's an immortal with a position as apposed to a mortal assuming an immortal position.
Maeve was Nemfected, not the Winter Lady Mantle, as evidenced by Molly not being Nemfected when the mantle took her. Ditto Aurora and Lily. Had Nemfection been capable of sticking to the mantle, then Mab would have already long since Lost and non of the event of Cold Days would have been needed.
We previously asserted we had seen no mortals Nfected but here your saying it was the mortal Host Not the mantle/deity itself... :( this is part of why sometimes I feel ppl just look to prove wrong without actually thinking about what their saying... it's either the host, or the mantle/thing itself that's infected, how can it be both?
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See, I don't recall the Stone Table being part of Mab giving Harry the Mantle. I don't recall the mantle going THOUGH the table. I do recall Slate's blood going into the table and his lifeforce going into it.
But then I think Mab, the current owner of the Table that time, used Slate's life-force to heal Harry. The Mantle itself went to Mab (even though we didn't see a smokey thing moving like we did with the ladies mantles) and Mab bestowed it on Harry.
Now, let's assume it did go though the Table and the table filtered out the Nemfection. Where did that waste product go? Is it still in the Stone table? Is the Stone Table now infected?
And if the Sk when through it then all of the SK's power would have went to winter yes? She essentially unmade and remade the mantle for Harry as opposed to bestowing the mantle to him by it going directly back to her. By killing him on the table it effectively killed the mantle while giving her back it's power, as opposed to taking in a potentially tainted WK mantle.
Since you asked, the table kills the associated consciousness and 'spirit' while preserving the power itself... It's a way around the you are what you eat Guide. That unfortunately has the potential to leave a lot of 'dead' conscious minds not yet forgotten by humanity into Oblivion, yet trying to find their way back in.
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Where she was discovering it actually, near the end she lies for first time, you can tell cause the ability surprises her. Also Woj about spending to long with humans and we did it..(i'll look, I know it's pretty old, should be just off the main list still)I'm going to call back your previous statement for a more thorough look, get back to above later..
I literally have no idea what you are talking about here...?
We previously asserted we had seen no mortals Nfected but here your saying it was the mortal Host Not the mantle/deity itself... :( this is part of why sometimes I feel ppl just look to prove wrong without actually thinking about what their saying... it's either the host, or the mantle/thing itself that's infected, how can it be both?
Yes, the Host is what is Nemfected and not the Mantle, but there is a vast difference between a Host and a Mortal. Maeve had not be a "Mortal" in that sense since she made her Changeling Choice way back when. That is entirely discinct from being the vessel of a Mantle.
We read your posts, but you are taking lots of very distinct things and conflating them into one, sometimes in your own logic but not even in the post; makes it difficult to tease out your real meaning.
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I literally have no idea what you are talking about here...?
old woj, looking but I'm mentally exhausted for now. Or do you mean the lying? if you read the scene like a... whats good word? c.i.a. analyst lol? you'll notice she actually hesitates right before she lies to Harry, as she's not yet sure she can, she was still off balance from dealing with Nfection at first. too distracted to be lying. I assume like with Lily, it was an outlined choice/bargain but she was still reeling from what it did to her on the inside.
Yes, the Host is what is Nemfected and not the Mantle, but there is a vast difference between a Host and a Mortal. Maeve had not be a "Mortal" in that sense since she made her Changeling Choice way back when. That is entirely discinct from being the vessel of a Mantle.
Now when someone else makes an assumption I feel like i'd get my theory torn into for making, how should I respond? ??? Lily apparently Made her choice automatically and Molly isn't actually a changling. Can you define this distinction in anything that corresponds to what we know? Cause that's basically a theory without the premise it came from. Nothing shows it's different, and you haven't yet gave me any inference why it's valid.
Your making the same logical leaps I do without, but I know i'm doing them(usually) and ignoring what we all know we don't know for sure of in Molly's situation. Cause lets say she did lose her soul, she can't choose to change and leave and neither can she become more in tune with the Ladies Mantle. Choice gone, change is gone, stuck half in half out. Ignores MS talking about remaining who you are despite winter's cold too.
We read your posts, but you are taking lots of very distinct things and conflating them into one, sometimes in your own logic but not even in the post; makes it difficult to tease out your real meaning.
Sorry bout that... but if it helps the logic not being put into the post is stuff I take for granted already having argued it here at least once or otherwise witnessed it put forth. Would be good to have a huge thread put together of the disparate parts of all my idea's so I can argue them better and keep the evidence organized but that just didn't work out for me unlike others <.< >.> All for piggybacking on others good idea's though, it's where civilization comes from :)
They are all one. If I could show you that... I could show you how I could place such bet's without being at all uncertain i'm right. Things beta readers wish they understood.
*And you know... to compare it to the mathematician savant, sometimes an answer is readily apparent and accurate by intuition that then has to be taken back to the drawing board to explain it to others. I could [l]talk[/l]type all day and your only seeing a percentage of my 'drawing board'. Or my other favorite metaphor for communication, slightly altered, Two artist are drawing the same backwoods house. They take separate trails and see two separate sides never meeting or seeing the same view but taking their work back to town and comparing artwork. Even though they can look at this picture neither can ever see what the other guy actually saw. And so they argue and bicker over who drew the true representation while neither one is actually willing to just walk around and leave their perspective to see just what the other guy saw. and what they had seen was incomplete in and of itself, because it was beyond fathomable to just go up and walk inside the house and see what it really was. Or to use a better know metaphor, the guy with the snake wouldn't let go what he 'saw' to go check out the wall the other guy had or vice versa :p (can't remember the 3rd part of the elephant offhand)
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old woj, looking but I'm mentally exhausted for now. Or do you mean the lying? if you read the scene like a... whats good word? c.i.a. analyst lol? you'll notice she actually hesitates right before she lies to Harry, as she's not yet sure she can, she was still off balance from dealing with Nfection at first. too distracted to be lying.
No, the WOJ isnt the issue, this is just the first time Ive heard the theory that the scene in PG was her first time lying. That's interesting, not a read Id heard of before, but not impossible I guess. The only issue I have with that is the timeline, we know that Maeve was Nemfected by Lea, and by PG Lea had been locked up for at least a year (sometime between SK and DB).
I assume like with Lily, it was an outlined choice/bargain but she was still reeling from what it did to her on the inside.
Can you elaborate on that, Im not sure what you are referring to. Choice (conscious or unconscious) I coudl see, but what "bargain"?
Now when someone else makes an assumption I feel like i'd get my theory torn into for making, how should I respond? ???
I try to point underlying assumptions out where-ever I can. My own, others, whatever. We cant talk Apples to Apples if we all keep saying Round Fruit :)
Lily apparently Made her choice automatically and Molly isn't actually a changling. Can you define this distinction in anything that corresponds to what we know? Cause that's basically a theory without the premise it came from.
The short answer is No, I cannot explain Molly to any satisfying degree, and I dont think anyone has yet. The best we can come up with is that Molly and the other Carpenter kids have Fae blood but are not first-generation Changelings. There's WOJ that it works that way, but the more generations removed, the more you need exposure to Fae/magic/etc as an environmental stimulus to wake it up; Molly's time in Arctis Tor and especially her tutalage under Lea would do it. And it would explain the
As far as Lily goes, by her own words she was not immediately forced to make her Choice when she got the Mantle at the end of SK, but I think that by actually accepting the Duties of the Lady that choice would move to unconscious territory pretty quickly.
Nothing shows it's different, and you haven't yet gave me any inference why it's valid.
How are they not? All Changelings Choose to be Mortal or Not Mortal (ie Fae); "Mortal" is over there on that side of the terminology tree. "Mantles" are this whole other thing (we've seen them manifest in a Hawk form and Serpent Form, both sidhe examples), All need Hosts but some of which latch onto Mortals (like the Knight Mantles) while others take a non-mortal Host (Eldest Fae, etc) and elevate them to true "Immortal" status (as opposed too "Ageless" things that can still be killed freely). The Venn Diagrams overlap, but they are defined by different things.
Your making the same logical leaps I do without, but I know i'm doing them(usually) and ignoring what we all know we don't know for sure of in Molly's situation. Cause lets say she did lose her soul, she can't choose to change and leave and neither can she become more in tune with the Ladies Mantle. Choice gone, change is gone, stuck half in half out. Ignores MS talking about remaining who you are despite winter's cold too.
Ive kind of lost track of where you were going with this logial push, so forgive me if I miss the mark here.
Per WOJ, Molly will inevitably loose her Soul, but it was not a light-switch thing; it's going to be gradual (and vary based on unspecified factors); so on that side there shouldnt be any getting stuck half-way on the logic that there will be a transition period.
Separately though, I dont think it would have been an issue regardless. Not having a Soul doesnt make you immune to Change (the closest thing to that is the Angels that are too "Absolute" to be Nemfected) rather the soul is what lets you initiate Self-Change; Molly is being Changed by an external Force (the Mantle), which is entirely possible for souless creatures with no Free Will (per the old WOJ you were referencing earlier).
Sorry bout that... but if it helps the logic not being put into the post is stuff I take for granted already having argued it here at least once or otherwise witnessed it put forth. Would be good to have a huge thread put together of the disparate parts of all my idea's so I can argue them better and keep the evidence organized but that just didn't work out for me unlike others <.< >.> All for piggybacking on others good idea's though, it's where civilization comes from :)
They are all one. If I could show you that... I could show you how I could place such bet's without being at all uncertain i'm right. Things beta readers wish they understood.
*And you know... to compare it to the mathematician savant, sometimes an answer is readily apparent and accurate by intuition that then has to be taken back to the drawing board to explain it to others. I could [l]talk[/l]type all day and your only seeing a percentage of my 'drawing board'. Or my other favorite metaphor for communication, slightly altered, Two artist are drawing the same backwoods house. They take separate trails and see two separate sides never meeting or seeing the same view but taking their work back to town and comparing artwork. Even though they can look at this picture neither can ever see what the other guy actually saw. And so they argue and bicker over who drew the true representation while neither one is actually willing to just walk around and leave their perspective to see just what the other guy saw. and what they had seen was incomplete in and of itself, because it was beyond fathomable to just go up and walk inside the house and see what it really was. Or to use a better know metaphor, the guy with the snake wouldn't let go what he 'saw' to go check out the wall the other guy had or vice versa :p (can't remember the 3rd part of the elephant offhand)
I feel your pain :) I keep trying to find the time to sit down and type up all my various thoughts into a Grand Unifying Theory like Serack's, but alas no dice yet.
The main reason I keep in these conversations, even the dead horse topics, is that the more I talk about it the more and more of my own assumptions I twig on, and so can include explicitly them in future theories. It sometimes just baffles me when people look at the same evidence I have and start talking about (what seem to be (wildly unrelated things). But that's usually my first clue that Im thinking Apples, they're thinking Oranges, and we're both actually just saying "The Fruit, man. The Fruit!!"
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No, the WOJ isnt the issue, this is just the first time Ive heard the theory that the scene in PG was her first time lying. That's interesting, not a read Id heard of before, but not impossible I guess. The only issue I have with that is the timeline, we know that Maeve was Nemfected by Lea, and by PG Lea had been locked up for at least a year (sometime between SK and DB).
Not sure your issue, that she'd been infected awhile or..? I figure it took awhile to come to full fruitation. Can you elaborate on that, Im not sure what you are referring to. Choice (conscious or unconscious) I coudl see, but what "bargain"?
Oops, I meant Aurora. She talks about how what she was doing wasn't her idea but 'the price that was set'.
I try to point underlying assumptions out where-ever I can. My own, others, whatever. We cant talk Apples to Apples if we all keep saying Round Fruit :)
The short answer is No, I cannot explain Molly to any satisfying degree, and I dont think anyone has yet. The best we can come up with is that Molly and the other Carpenter kids have Fae blood but are not first-generation Changelings. There's WOJ that it works that way, but the more generations removed, the more you need exposure to Fae/magic/etc as an environmental stimulus to wake it up; Molly's time in Arctis Tor and especially her tutalage under Lea would do it. And it would explain the
Way I figure it, wizards are actually closer to 'half born' but they never usually chose to be anything other than human, where as at some point a mutual ancestor choose to become fae. I see Merlin and his sister Morgana connect to meso and Egyptian mythos as the originators as scions capable of magic.(merlin=Egyptian Horus is an easy connection... Horus being the embodiment of the Moon and GK domain IS the moon, well I see possibilities) One chose mortality(as is sorta mirrored in Odins choices) and the other became something more. I think the recent woj about changlings and if they ever twig to the fact they HAVE a choice includes wizards, especially some of the older ones. This could be a big problem with why warlocks can't be redeemed beyond a certain point, they choose to stop being human, like the 'god' who gets executed in PG.
As far as Lily goes, by her own words she was not immediately forced to make her Choice when she got the Mantle at the end of SK, but I think that by actually accepting the Duties of the Lady that choice would move to unconscious territory pretty quickly.
How are they not? All Changelings Choose to be Mortal or Not Mortal (ie Fae); "Mortal" is over there on that side of the terminology tree. "Mantles" are this whole other thing (we've seen them manifest in a Hawk form and Serpent Form, both sidhe examples), All need Hosts but some of which latch onto Mortals (like the Knight Mantles) while others take a non-mortal Host (Eldest Fae, etc) and elevate them to true "Immortal" status (as opposed too "Ageless" things that can still be killed freely). The Venn Diagrams overlap, but they are defined by different things.
I still can't see why that makes the host Nfected. One of the reasons I say it is the mantle btw, is because of Lily(that's the correct one this time lol). Even at her most sadistic Aurora was pretty in control til the end. Though she'd actually let her overall emotional perspective slip askewed. Lily... less so, and I think it's cause the mantle went to a changling who became fae but lacks something Molly might also possess, starborn resistance. After acclimating to the mantle for 10 years she's nothing like the conserved Aurora we first meet still putting on proper SL show. Her reflex use of a blanket blast of fire vs the assertion summer must be controlled in how it chooses to use its power stands in stark contrast. She's losing her mind to the mantle, which is emotionally unstable. Could be why mab was wrong on who deserved which mantle, the balance between the two is off.
Ive kind of lost track of where you were going with this logial push, so forgive me if I miss the mark here.
Per WOJ, Molly will inevitably loose her Soul, but it was not a light-switch thing; it's going to be gradual (and vary based on unspecified factors); so on that side there shouldnt be any getting stuck half-way on the logic that there will be a transition period.
The actual sentence itself is contradicted as he utters it though.... I was pointing out you haven't explained the differences between host, mortal and mantle and why the host is infected. point of fact only things in the immortal land we know have been infected have mantles, so how can we say it's the host as an immortal?
Hey btw, this is exactly the same thing i'm pointing out happens to red's until they are bloodslaves. So if she can use a cell phone being immortal but not have faded her soul then I see no reason why a red can't still be clinging but unable to soul gaze :)
Separately though, I dont think it would have been an issue regardless. Not having a Soul doesnt make you immune to Change (the closest thing to that is the Angels that are too "Absolute" to be Nemfected) rather the soul is what lets you initiate Self-Change; Molly is being Changed by an external Force (the Mantle), which is entirely possible for souless creatures with no Free Will (per the old WOJ you were referencing earlier).
But only from mortal magic or soul. How can a spirit mantle change an immortal host? No soul to initiate change by your claim.. unless it's slowly subsuming Hers' which is exactly what I think it does. Mortal magic possessing the same spark of change that souls have can be best proven if I cite Wizards being able to be crazy enough to simply open a way for an outsider. It's capable of giving something 'life' in reality.
*hey maybe that means everytime she uses magic it feeds the mantle instead, at which point it becomes exactly like an insulation against using certain magics yourself :) and acceptably explains why her aura changes. It's leaching it dry of mortal essence. Feeding the same way a fallen does(YES, everything's the same lol).
I feel your pain :) I keep trying to find the time to sit down and type up all my various thoughts into a Grand Unifying Theory like Serack's, but alas no dice yet.
The main reason I keep in these conversations, even the dead horse topics, is that the more I talk about it the more and more of my own assumptions I twig on, and so can include explicitly them in future theories. It sometimes just baffles me when people look at the same evidence I have and start talking about (what seem to be (wildly unrelated things). But that's usually my first clue that Im thinking Apples, they're thinking Oranges, and we're both actually just saying "The Fruit, man. The Fruit!!"
Yep, arguing my case is the best way to flesh out my own thinking on something. I consistently make better fluid arguments for something than sit down and organize something decent, or even legible. Knowing what the problem in communication of an idea is helps to better address said issue.
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And if the Sk when through it then all of the SK's power would have went to winter yes? She essentially unmade and remade the mantle for Harry as opposed to bestowing the mantle to him by it going directly back to her. By killing him on the table it effectively killed the mantle while giving her back it's power, as opposed to taking in a potentially tainted WK mantle.
Since you asked, the table kills the associated consciousness and 'spirit' while preserving the power itself... It's a way around the you are what you eat Guide. That unfortunately has the potential to leave a lot of 'dead' conscious minds not yet forgotten by humanity into Oblivion, yet trying to find their way back in.
I'm struggling with your assertion that the table is anything other than a conduit for power.
What makes you think that the WK's mantle was tainted in any way?
Also, we know the life-force of Slate was given to Winter, but the WK mantle was not. It was already Winter's so there is no reason for it to have gone through the table. It DID just go back to Mab and she bestowed it on Harry.
I'm not seeing any evidence that the WK mantle went through the table to Mab to Harry, nor that the table is anything other than a conduit.
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I'm struggling with your assertion that the table is anything other than a conduit for power.
Can you specify the problem? I base my assumption mostly from
i am fairly certain, but not positive, that it is not possible to hold both Mantles at once. Also i do not think that holding both was what Slade was planning. Slade and the Summer Lady were planning on taking the Summer Knight out of the equation, and thus causing a war. During this war, the Summer Lady would be able to take Lily, the follower of Summer that she put the Mantle on, along with the Unraveling, and sacrifice her for Winter on the Stone Table, thus giving Winter the Energy that went along with the Knight's Mantle, not the Mantle itself. At least that was how i interpreted it. The Stone Table doesnt transfer the actual thing that is Sacrificed on the Table from Summer to Winter and vice versa, but the energy and power that it holds.
Finger. Nose.
Jim :)
What makes you think that the WK's mantle was tainted in any way?
Also, we know the life-force of Slate was given to Winter, but the WK mantle was not. It was already Winter's so there is no reason for it to have gone through the table. It DID just go back to Mab and she bestowed it on Harry.
Then why bother pulling out the special knife(one from the description is later pulled from Hades vault, 3 fae queens in vault as ward/sirens shows evidence of collaboration to some extent) and make him use the table? She didn't want the thing itself back, who'd been working with Nfected Aurora. Just The power to remake it again. She was worried about contamination from reabsorbing it... Makes me wonder at a comparison to lash. She gives out a piece of her power to a mutable mortal... is the mantle impressionable from the bearer? Is this How Kringle got a W mantle of his own identity? Can they take on a changed portion of their own power, thus changing themselves by proxy? Mmm ??? anyway...
I'm not seeing any evidence that the WK mantle went through the table to Mab to Harry, nor that the table is anything other than a conduit.
Combine the above seeming agreeing woj with what is actually said about the table by Lea and blood spilt upon the table. And doesn't it make it obvious it went through the table via blood? You yourself said we lacked any other manifestation of the power involved there. It's specifically how Aurora thought to transfer the power of the Knights mantle in Sk. Mab transferred the power of the mantle back to winter without accepting potentially damaged goods.
It IS a conduit, for power itself. A way to separate power from spirit of memory. It would likely be why Mab needed to cement her fae more in reality even though the things they actually inherited their powers from are well known, if now considered mythologically historical, religions.
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Then why bother pulling out the special knife(one from the description is later pulled from Hades vault, 3 fae queens in vault as ward/sirens shows evidence of collaboration to some extent) and make him use the table?
It was not the same knife. We've pretty much identified that the one pulled from the vault was the spear-tip of the Spear of Longinus from the crucifixion. Along with the other relics on the same stand.
She didn't want the thing itself back, who'd been working with Nfected Aurora. Just The power to remake it again. She was worried about contamination from reabsorbing it... Makes me wonder at a comparison to lash.
That's just it, based on the quote that Jim Nose/finger'd, the mantle itself didn't go into or though the table, just the power that the mantle had. And we already know that the power of the Mantle is already part of the power of winter/Mab. So there is no need for cleansing.
There is no evidence that Slade was nemfected. Sadistic and cruel sure, but not nemfected.
Combine the above seeming agreeing woj with what is actually said about the table by Lea and blood spilt upon the table. And doesn't it make it obvious it went through the table via blood? You yourself said we lacked any other manifestation of the power involved there. It's specifically how Aurora thought to transfer the power of the Knights mantle in Sk.
In SK we saw a transfer of a Mantle, the Summer Knight's mantel, and we didn't see any manifestation like we did of the ladies in CD.
We didn't see a manifestation of the transfer of the WK mantle to Harry either.
The blood, and Live of Slade, WAS the power used and transferred. It was transferred through Mab to Harry to heal his body, thus not depleting any of Winter's power, not that that was all that much anyway.
Mab transferred the power of the mantle back to winter without accepting potentially damaged goods.
Again, no evidence that the Mantle went through the table. I'll admit that it's possible that the POWER went through the table, but not the mantle itself. Read the quote that Jim agrees with.
It IS a conduit, for power itself. A way to separate power from spirit of memory. It would likely be why Mab needed to cement her fae more in reality even though the things they actually inherited their powers from are well known, if now considered mythologically historical, religions.
Huh? A way to separate from a spirit of memory? Are you saying that Nemfection is some kind of alternate version of Bob?
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It was not the same knife. We've pretty much identified that the one pulled from the vault was the spear-tip of the Spear of Longinus from the crucifixion. Along with the other relics on the same stand.
With the same bronze blade and leaf shaped Handle... ya can't prove it's not the same one. and fyi, all those relics are also accepted to have probably existed in a different form before being used in the Crucifixion. You can say you don't think it's the same one, but by description there is more for than against.
That's just it, based on the quote that Jim Nose/finger'd, the mantle itself didn't go into or though the table, just the power that the mantle had. And we already know that the power of the Mantle is already part of the power of winter/Mab. So there is no need for cleansing.
And it's currently in the WK, it's of her but not currently a part of her. If the mantle had gone through the table When Aurora tried it, it would have ceased to exist. What happens to a mantle(if indeed it still exists) when all it's power gets transferred across the table to something or else? it becomes an empty useless cup anyway. So moot either way.
Why yes, there's no need to use the stone table when you already possess the mantle's power in your court, UNLESS what..?
There is no evidence that Slade was nemfected. Sadistic and cruel sure, but not nemfected.
In SK we saw a transfer of a Mantle, the Summer Knight's mantel, and we didn't see any manifestation like we did of the ladies in CD.
We saw any such thing? we on screen saw any such thing?
We didn't see a manifestation of the transfer of the WK mantle to Harry either.
they did it directly not through the air, either in the act of sex or when she froze his spine back in place. Either way it's straw manning here and above, What does it matter? How does it address an issue? it don't cause we don't know jack about the table except the point I already made, it works with blood, an old primal conduit for power, not through 'manifestation'. Your taking how the mantles were on DR, which isn't the Knights mantle btw, never seen that change in real time, and saying that it applies here when i'm specifically saying here is different. there^ the conduit was blood, and I'm using YOUR OWN ASSERTION that the mantle didn't manifest otherwise to prove it was transferred through said blood as was originally meant by Aurora. The table transfers the power, not the thing itself, the power from spirit/memory, so it rips the power from the memory, ending the you are what you eat effect. Again, that's why Mab's power can come from greek Goddess's but she need's to cement her courts in human memory compared to greek legends, The memory connection was killed but the power itself was transferred...
The blood, and Live of Slade, WAS the power used and transferred. It was transferred through Mab to Harry to heal his body, thus not depleting any of Winter's power, not that that was all that much anyway.
That's inference without premise, again... Based on what? Your perceptions only yes?
Again, no evidence that the Mantle went through the table. I'll admit that it's possible that the POWER went through the table, but not the mantle itself. Read the quote that Jim agrees with.[/quote]Then what becomes the purpose of sacrifice on the stone table, what 'dies'?
Huh? A way to separate from a spirit of memory? Are you saying that Nemfection is some kind of alternate version of Bob?
Gah, I could explain it all and quote the woj how certain things like Lea are actually elemental parts of the mind and how N is tied up into the collective subconscious and shadow and how everybody has that 'mirror' in themselves and then add in the comparison to MM Harry and Harry's Subconscious and the fae queens being 'mirrors' of themselves to disallow N room to operate in reality on them, as their mirror exists here(citing first day creatures slipping into 'masks', can't slip into the 'mirror' already in existence) ect, ect. but I won't... I rather feel your trying to misunderstand some of this now... :'(
Good Day Sir.
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And it's currently in the WK, it's of her but not currently a part of her. If the mantle had gone through the table When Aurora tried it, it would have ceased to exist. What happens to a mantle(if indeed it still exists) when all it's power gets transferred across the table to something or else? it becomes an empty useless cup anyway. So moot either way.
Why yes, there's no need to use the stone table when you already possess the mantle's power in your court, UNLESS what..?
The Mothers said that the mantles pass to the nearest suitable vessel. The Table isn't needed, when Slade murdered the Summer Knight the mantle was transferred, the Table wasn't needed.. If Lily or Titania needed the Table for Fix to acquire the Summer knight's mantle is was off page... I don't think blood is needed either for it, what is confusing in my opinion is the execution of Slade.. He had to die to give up the mantle, also it all could have been a bit of a perverted show that Mab wanted to put on.. For the simple reason, why would the transfer of the Knight's mantle be so much more elaborate and complicated the the transfer of the Lady's mantle?
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Based on all the Knight Mantle stuff we saw in SK, I tend to land in the camp that basically all of that scene in CD was Mab asserting dominance over Harry and not any sort of ritual requirement. It certainly applies to the PPV Sexcapades they broadcast, which was dominance over Harry and an Announcement that She'd finally claimed him. I think it equally applied to murdering Slade, as that was a turning-point Choice for Harry, when he Murdered a helpless mortal for no other reason than he wanted Power (Harsh, but his own description) and I think she wanted to proove he'd Kill on Orders. That being said, Mab doesnt do one thing if she can get two for the same effort, and Slade's treatment does somewhat resemble Lea's. I guess wouldn't be surprised to find out that she'd also been treating him for Nemfection, even as a precautionary measure due to his scheming proximity to Aurora.
New Question: Would Slade have needed to be Nemfected to Betray the Winter Court and/or the Natural Order to the Summer Lady as he did? Harry is bound by Winter Law, but it seems to me it's not as forcefully as a queen/lady.
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New Question: Would Slade have needed to be Nemfected to Betray the Winter Court and/or the Natural Order to the Summer Lady as he did? Harry is bound by Winter Law, but it seems to me it's not as forcefully as a queen/lady.
I don't think so, the Knight still has Free Will and can betray his Queen and Court. Aurora seems to have promised him the power of the Summer Knight in addition to that of the Winter Knight. He didn't need to be Nemfected, he was willing.
Fix was bound by a geas in Proven Guilty, so the Queens can restrict their Knights' Free Will to a degree. But I think they have to actively do something specific, meaning they have to think about it in the first place.
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I don't think so, the Knight still has Free Will and can betray his Queen and Court. Aurora seems to have promised him the power of the Summer Knight in addition to that of the Winter Knight. He didn't need to be Nemfected, he was willing.
Fix was bound by a geas in Proven Guilty, so the Queens can restrict their Knights' Free Will to a degree. But I think they have to actively do something specific, meaning they have to think about it in the first place.
Im not implying that a Knight is restricted in the same way as a Sidhe (as being physically incapable), but per Harry's whole "Screw Winter Law" episode they DO face consequences of such defiance. He doesnt need a Nemfection to become Willing any more than Maeve did, but he may well have needed a Nemfection to avoid the Fallout of open defiance against Winter.
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Im not implying that a Knight is restricted in the same way as a Sidhe (as being physically incapable), but per Harry's whole "Screw Winter Law" episode they DO face consequences of such defiance. He doesnt need a Nemfection to become Willing any more than Maeve did, but he may well have needed a Nemfection to avoid the Fallout of open defiance against Winter.
I don't know if Harry's "screw Winter Law" comment is a very good example, simply because it may have only pertained to the agreement between Harry and Mab.. Or more to the point, knowing her Winter Knight's independent nature and strong will, Mab felt the need to put him in his place.. I think a lot was let to slide when Slade was Knight maybe because Maeve was basically in charge of his duties.. At any rate he was also made an example of by Mab, that there is a serious price to be paid for betraying her.
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Im not implying that a Knight is restricted in the same way as a Sidhe (as being physically incapable), but per Harry's whole "Screw Winter Law" episode they DO face consequences of such defiance. He doesnt need a Nemfection to become Willing any more than Maeve did, but he may well have needed a Nemfection to avoid the Fallout of open defiance against Winter.
Yep, Harry lost what he has bargained for. We don't know what Lloyd Slate has bargained for, it might have been something stupid and he realized that he had been screwed.
Or, he didn't actually break Winter Law. The scheme was based on hurting Summer, which the Winter Knight is allowed to do. It's kind of his purpose. Technically, Winter would have become much more powerful if the Summer Knight's power were added to its pool.
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Yep, Harry lost what he has bargained for. We don't know what Lloyd Slate has bargained for, it might have been something stupid and he realized that he had been screwed.
Or, he didn't actually break Winter Law. The scheme was based on hurting Summer, which the Winter Knight is allowed to do. It's kind of his purpose. Technically, Winter would have been become much more powerful if the Summer Knight's power were added to its pool.
This is still possible. The Mission was nominally to Hunt the Summer Knight, but he did so by allying with the Summer Lady, and in at least one instance deliberately failed his task given by the Winter Lady (in not recovering usable Blood from Elaine).
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The Mothers said that the mantles pass to the nearest suitable vessel. The Table isn't needed, when Slade murdered the Summer Knight the mantle was transferred, the Table wasn't needed.. If Lily or Titania needed the Table for Fix to acquire the Summer knight's mantle is was off page... I don't think blood is needed either for it, what is confusing in my opinion is the execution of Slade.. He had to die to give up the mantle, also it all could have been a bit of a perverted show that Mab wanted to put on.. For the simple reason, why would the transfer of the Knight's mantle be so much more elaborate and complicated the the transfer of the Lady's mantle?
It's funny, cause I'm pretty sure your disagreeing with me ??? but your also pointing out the direct fallibility in the use of the table. It wasn't needed, She didn't need to have such an elaborate method. BUT Watsonion and doyalist both say, 'why forth then did you do it Holmes?'
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This is still possible. The Mission was nominally to Hunt the Summer Knight, but he did so by allying with the Summer Lady, and in at least one instance deliberately failed his task given by the Winter Lady (in not recovering usable Blood from Elaine).
Faerie bargains and law are all about the letter of the law. He did attack Elaine brought back some blood, he just wasn't really successful. Of course that was intentional, but technically, he had followed his orders.
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Faerie bargains and law are all about the letter of the law. He did attack Elaine brought back some blood, he just wasn't really successful. Of course that was intentional, but technically, he had followed his orders.
This is also true. And Maeve might not have been as controlled/precise in her wording as Mab might be. She'd certainly earned his animosity on all it's own.
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AND we don't know that the WK can have a compulsion placed on him to do something. We haven't seen Harry with any form of magical compulsion placed on him to do, or not do anything as WK.
It could be that Slade could have just sat down and done nothing. But he had to make it appear as though he was trying to keep the plan going.
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AND we don't know that the WK can have a compulsion placed on him to do something. We haven't seen Harry with any form of magical compulsion placed on him to do, or not do anything as WK.
It could be that Slade could have just sat down and done nothing. But he had to make it appear as though he was trying to keep the plan going.
No, but only because Harry very forcefully negotiated against it during his initial Hiring, and Mab has thus far agreed to not risk it; but both acknowledge she has the power. Meanwhile, we've seen it dont both to Fix as Summer knight and Harry as Winter Emissary. Im confident that the Queens tpically have and use that power over their knights. We saw Maeve compel Slate directly in SK, albeit with (not feigned?) difficulty, and we know that slate wasnt an actual fan of hers.