ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: dspringer1 on July 10, 2017, 11:06:51 PM
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It is pretty clear that wizards are old school. They teach via the ancient model of apprentice/master. But times have moved on. We have seen with Luccio that they created a boot camp for new wardens that was quite successful. I can see the possibility that they extend that model to create a wizard academy to more easily train wizards in larger numbers. Something like this would be essential if Harry's ideas regarding training Paranet members is implemented.
How would such a magical academy work? I doubt it would be very Harry Potter, but I can see something comparable to a old style college format. A dozen different "schools" each focused on a particular discipline that combines lecture and practice. Each taught by an expert in that type of magic. Everybody takes the basics, but students generally continue in a specific school based on success/skill/aptitude.
They certainly do not have enough students right now to have a dozen concurrent schools taught, but they could teach a few schools every month and just alternate. As student populations increase, they can run more classes concurrently.
The advanced classes might continue via the apprentice model - especially as the WC is still paranoid about wizards misusing their power. They would want experienced wizards to personally evaluate candidates before teaching them advanced magical techniques.
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Yes, but the real question is, how much would it torment Harry for this to occur? *evil grin*. But I think the closest JB has touched on this possibility is with the side-line of stories regarding Maggie/Mouse and their school "for the gifted".
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It is pretty clear that wizards are old school. They teach via the ancient model of apprentice/master. But times have moved on. We have seen with Luccio that they created a boot camp for new wardens that was quite successful. I can see the possibility that they extend that model to create a wizard academy to more easily train wizards in larger numbers. Something like this would be essential if Harry's ideas regarding training Paranet members is implemented.
How would such a magical academy work? I doubt it would be very Harry Potter, but I can see something comparable to a old style college format. A dozen different "schools" each focused on a particular discipline that combines lecture and practice. Each taught by an expert in that type of magic. Everybody takes the basics, but students generally continue in a specific school based on success/skill/aptitude.
The advanced classes might continue via the apprentice model - especially as the WC is still paranoid about wizards misusing their power. They would want experienced wizards to personally evaluate candidates before teaching them advanced magical techniques.
You could probably set something like that up, with very basic training done en masse, using standardized approaches. But as above, I think magic is probably something best learned one-on-one or one-on-few once you get past the basics.
A further complication would be that the various kinds of Wizards in the Council, with their various national/ethnic/religious/historical backgrounds, probably have very different approaches to and methods with magic. It might prove to be very hard to standardize even the basics. Somehow I suspect that Ancient Mai, Injun Joe, and Arthur Langtry would define the 'basics' very differently.
The hardest part would be selecting the candidates, though.
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Luccio's boot camp was chosen several times by the Red Court as a target, though. Even without a war going on, a school full of untrained wizards is a juicy target if you want to hurt the WC.
It's possible that some wizards do teach their apprentices together in seminar-style from time to time. Why bother teaching your apprentice potions if your friend is a master alchemist but you are a master enchanter. In turn, their apprentices come over sometimes and get instructions in enchanting from you. Or they might take turns in teaching theory that can be done in greater groups. It would mean less work for each individual master, so there's a huge benefit for the masters and better teaching for the apprentices, who receive expert training on all subjects. Besides: both masters and apprentices have the opportunity to do some networking.
We didn't see something like that in the books because Justin isolated his apprentices from other wizards and both Harry and Molly were warlocks who hardly any other wizard would have offered to teach. But Listens to Wind once offered teaching Molly some healing magic, so it might not be uncommon to get training from someone besides your individual master.
btw: The apprentice system may be very old, but that doesn't mean it isn't efficient. If it ain't broken, why fix it? As magic is often very personal, a personal one on one instruction might just be mandative for some things.
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Seeing as with the population explosion there will be more and more Wizard-level talents out there a move to a more group-oriented teaching is likely.
I think a Jedi model would work the best. Children with Wizard-talent are moved to Edinburgh for schooling as Younglings, and once they go through a basic training a Wizard chooses them to become his Apprentice (padawan) to finish their training and attuned the final teachings to their specific talents and way of expressing magic.
The system, of course, would need the cooperation of the Paranet or something similar to catch strong talents.
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Group training is not out of the question, but as Devil's Advocate the modern world (and the US in particular) has a huge shortage in skilled trademen, and one of the big contributing factors is that many of these skills require the sort of guided on-the-job training that is simply impractical to provide in a school setting. And Internships are basically short-term Apprenticeships. The Teacher/Apprentice model is far from outdated even in modern society, and can still win out against group/classroom training in several important ways, many of which I think apply to Magical study as much or more than others. For that matter, Id submit that the vast majority of actual education in the modern world is still ON-The-Job Training.
That being said, I have to assume that there is typically more shared teaching and classroom settings than we've seen Harry involved with, but he skipped all the normal apprenticeship stages (since he was inducted as a full member based on his fight with Justin) and went straight to probationary member. I think it was Cold Case that mentioned how much of the standard education he skipped.
I will say that I think the group teaching Wizard Academy mindset works far better with the Wardens than it necessarily would with your average Member, were the practices can be far more specific/specialized and would not necessarily be required to have skills outside your own wheelhouse. But somebody has to teach all Wardens the Sword, or how to run an Investigation, or any number of specific Duty-required skills that a non-warden Master simply wouldnt be expected to know let alone teach.
I think the question boils down to how Standard those early lessons really are, versus how much individual problem-solving and adapting lessons to Talents, especially at the early stages when magic does weird shit like making an apprentice literally glow when they get a compliment. Either
A)the early lessons just establish the basics, later lessons (1-on-1 or classroom) could be taught by increasingly specialized instructors with decreased class sizes until it becomes basically an apprenticeship; that's more or less the modern system with single classes at low levels, with increasingly specialized classes in high school, college, and beyond. Or,
B)The early education NEEDS to be closer to one-on-one while Control is established somebody knowledgeable and dedicated to supervise and troubleshoot and customize lessons to individual emotio0nal blocks, etc. Then only once their magical skills and control (and understanding) have reached a certain point would they have enough common ground with other practitioners to take advantage of group teaching methods.
Or Neither is overwhelmingly the case, and so for the most part either method could work, and it's just a matter of relative resources.
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The apprentice system may be very old, but that doesn't mean it isn't efficient. If it ain't broken, why fix it?
Scale. The White Council cannot train a lot of wizards using the apprentice model. Realistically many wizards are not good teachers and thus would not have apprentices. Many wizards are too busy to have an apprentice. Any one wizard with apprentices would rarely have more than one apprentice. A school would enable the same number of wizards to teach a lot more apprentices.
As magic is often very personal, a personal one on one instruction might just be mandative for some things.
This is the biggest argument against a school. if every wizard has a completely different approach, then it is hard to teach them collectively. The success of the boot camp implies that this is not an insurmountable problem, but it would certainly complicate things. I think it would be inevitable that any academy system would make make wizards "style" more consistent over time.
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Actually I think this is kind of done in a way.
IIRC, in Summer Knight, wasn't the apprentice that came back from Winter one of Ancient Mai's apprentices? Now, that could mean that he was her latest. Or it could mean that he was one of many current apprentices.
Also, in Dead Beat, when Harry was talking to Sheila, he saw a book, written by Ebenezar McCoy, that is handed to most new apprentices because it taught basics (again, if I recall correctly).
So, the elements are there, it's more of a getting it going. Like the Paranet. Luccio is working on that. I'd bet a school is the next step.
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My main argument against wizard school would have to be Harry Potter.
By the time Harry, Ron, and Hermione graduated from Hogwarts, they were completely incapable of holding down a job in the real world. In the case of Ron, I wouldn't even trust him to go to the corner store to buy my groceries. What they were, is perfectly set up to have a life inside the wizard community, and nowhere else.
The reason a warden boot camp makes sense is because wardens get a stipend, that is, they get paid at the end. Most wizards don't appear to make a living out of performing magic. What benefit would they get out of going to wizard school?
That said, the White Council does have a big problem in their hands, due to the population explosion increasing the number of people with wizard class potential out there. They're definitely gonna have to figure out some way of dealing with that in the future, but unless they can offer people a way of making a living out of performing magic, I don't see full-time wizard school as an option, specially as a good non-magical education becomes more and more important for people to make a living.
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Scale. The White Council cannot train a lot of wizards using the apprentice model. Realistically many wizards are not good teachers and thus would not have apprentices. Many wizards are too busy to have an apprentice. Any one wizard with apprentices would rarely have more than one apprentice. A school would enable the same number of wizards to teach a lot more apprentices.
If we can assume a School would be a viable option at all, why are we assuming a single Master cannot adequately teach multiple Apprentices?
This is the biggest argument against a school. if every wizard has a completely different approach, then it is hard to teach them collectively. The success of the boot camp implies that this is not an insurmountable problem, but it would certainly complicate things. I think it would be inevitable that any academy system would make make wizards "style" more consistent over time.
Just a Devil's Advocate statement, but Keep in mind that the boot camp was a /Warden/ training camp, which is a simultaneously a more broad and more specific skill-set than just being a Wizard; there's a lot of non-magical material (like what we saw Harry teaching in AAAA Wizardry) and a lot of . It's entirely possible all those younglings were already apprentices (or at the very least being watched to become one) and so may well have already had some basic one-on-one training (formally or not).
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Also, don't forget that those who were at Camp Kaboom were already full wizards.
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If we can assume a School would be a viable option at all, why are we assuming a single Master cannot adequately teach multiple Apprentices?
If you assume a master takes several apprentices at the same time, they certainly could. The problem with a single master is that when the apprentices skills begin to diverge, they start to need separate training. A single master with Molly and Harry as students would find their individual strengths to rapidly diverge, limiting the opportunities for co-training.
In a college setting, molly would move to the advanced class in veils while Harry stayed in the basic class. That is the strength of the college groups. You can cluster several students together on any one topic that have comparable skills.
Do not get me wrong, these classes might be only five students in size. I doubt any wizard class beyond general education lectures would have more than ten students. but that still means a given group of wizards can turn out 5X the apprentices of a single master.
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If you assume a master takes several apprentices at the same time, they certainly could. The problem with a single master is that when the apprentices skills begin to diverge, they start to need separate training. A single master with Molly and Harry as students would find their individual strengths to rapidly diverge, limiting the opportunities for co-training.
In a college setting, molly would move to the advanced class in veils while Harry stayed in the basic class. That is the strength of the college groups. You can cluster several students together on any one topic that have comparable skills.
Do not get me wrong, these classes might be only five students in size. I doubt any wizard class beyond general education lectures would have more than ten students. but that still means a given group of wizards can turn out 5X the apprentices of a single master.
The sense I get is that Harry, and by extension Molly, was unusually isolated as an Apprentice. I would have assumed a certain amount of collaboration with their peers (to the limits of the masters' individual personalities) when the issue is disparate skill sets. Homeschooling coalitions do this pretty often these days.
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Do not get me wrong, these classes might be only five students in size. I doubt any wizard class beyond general education lectures would have more than ten students. but that still means a given group of wizards can turn out 5X the apprentices of a single master.
We know two topics in which wizard tradition has been firmly entrenched: wards and defensive mental magic. In Summer Knight, an "old dame Warden" showed the whole council a list of newly-developed warding theories meant to incorporate additional protection against vampires. Similarly, the wards set up by corpsetaker in Ghost Story were identifiable by Harry as previous generations of the same principles he knows. Speaking of Corpsetaker, in Dead Beat, she recognize Harry's mental defenses as being part of the Council's standard doctrine, and she mentions they've been using it for a century.
I've always thought of the White Council as a Certification and Continuing Professional Education system more than anything else. Once the Council recognizes you as having the potential to be an apprentice, you are assigned a coach to help you develop your own style as well as make it compatible enough with the Council's generally accepted theories of magic until you are recognized as a Wizard. Once a Wizard, it is your responsibility to go to the Council Meetings to keep yourself up to date with whatever new theories they present to you.
[...]I thought, well if the wizards are going to exist on this world then they are going to have some kind of organization of one kind or another, and the White Council ends up being kind of the Bar organization for the wizards you know. If you want to be someone who's taken seriously you have to show up, you have to pass their tests, you gota put in your time helping out, and then you are recognized as a full wizard.
Unfortunately, that's not good enough anymore. Wizards of the White Council are still too rare to catch everyone with the potential to hurt others before they go Sith. Which is why they have relied on their allies, organizations like the Venatori and the Paranet to do the flagging for them. But that's not going to be enough in the future, I don't think.
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We know two topics in which wizard tradition has been firmly entrenched: wards and defensive mental magic. In Summer Knight, an "old dame Warden" showed the whole council a list of newly-developed warding theories meant to incorporate additional protection against vampires. Similarly, the wards set up by corpsetaker in Ghost Story were identifiable by Harry as previous generations of the same principles he knows. Speaking of Corpsetaker, in Dead Beat, she recognize Harry's mental defenses as being part of the Council's standard doctrine, and she mentions they've been using it for a century.
I've always thought of the White Council as a Certification and Continuing Professional Education system more than anything else. Once the Council recognizes you as having the potential to be an apprentice, you are assigned a coach to help you develop your own style as well as make it compatible enough with the Council's generally accepted theories of magic until you are recognized as a Wizard. Once a Wizard, it is your responsibility to go to the Council Meetings to keep yourself up to date with whatever new theories they present to you.
Unfortunately, that's not good enough anymore. Wizards of the White Council are still too rare to catch everyone with the potential to hurt others before they go Sith. Which is why they have relied on their allies, organizations like the Venatori and the Paranet to do the flagging for them. But that's not going to be enough in the future, I don't think.
I agree with your assessment, though I'd submit that only the Venatori have played that role so far but that the much, MUCH wider and more well-attended Net of the Paranet will go a long way to mitigating the scale issues you see. They are just too new at this point, and as of I think it was TC where Harry and Luccio mention it, the paranet hadnt yet developed a huge amount of support in the Council beyond Harry himself.
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I agree with your assessment, though I'd submit that only the Venatori have played that role so far but that the much, MUCH wider and more well-attended Net of the Paranet will go a long way to mitigating the scale issues you see. They are just too new at this point, and as of I think it was TC where Harry and Luccio mention it, the paranet hadnt yet developed a huge amount of support in the Council beyond Harry himself.
Back before Backup, I had assumed the Venatori and the Paranet were just 2 iterations of the same idea, just developed in different centuries: low power practitioners banding together to share knowledge with each other, and where possible, defend the people around them. It's just that the ways of sharing knowledge have evolved, while the Venatori have not (being part of an ancient secret society is way more fun than being part of an effective secret society). Of course, Backup added an extra dimension to the Venatori, but I imagine as far as most of them are concerned (not Venators, though), my point still stands.
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Well, in the Paranet papers, Simon had multiple apprentices of different ages. I actually got the impression that the so-called Brute Squad at Archangel was in fact something like Simon's 'magic school'.
I think it is likely that he wasn't / isn't the only wizard to have several apprentices at once. For a very simple reason that also applies to real world apprenticeship systems: The beginners need a lot of attention and guidance, the more advanced apprentices start to pay off that investment by working for very little money. And occasionally by tutoring the newbies instead of the master or a journeyman. In theory, only a master is supposed to teach, but reality often looks different. Time is money and investing it into teaching isn't done for charity.
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Well, in the Paranet papers, Simon had multiple apprentices of different ages. I actually got the impression that the so-called Brute Squad at Archangel was in fact something like Simon's 'magic school'.
I think it is likely that he wasn't / isn't the only wizard to have several apprentices at once. For a very simple reason that also applies to real world apprenticeship systems: The beginners need a lot of attention and guidance, the more advanced apprentices start to pay off that investment by working for very little money. And occasionally by tutoring the newbies instead of the master or a journeyman. In theory, only a master is supposed to teach, but reality often looks different. Time is money and investing it into teaching isn't done for charity.
That's very true, though I traditionally associate that model with more Tradesman type of apprenticeship, like blacksmith or something where there is a lot of requisite grunt-work, as opposed to what is much more an academic pursuit like magic (outside the wardens).
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In White Night, Dresden does say that the reason the wards around his house are stronger is because he makes Molly reinforce them. We know she also works on potions quite a bit, and that she was in charge of making tracking spells for him to use in a story or 2. But yeah, overall, magic doesn't pay, but there's not a lot of gruntwork involved in it.
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Since when does wizarding not pay?
Harry makes money finding people, lost items, consulting for CPD, and being a warden.
He could open up a potion shop. Levitation, escape, love, weightloss, pick-me-up, stealth we know he can make. Add in some super strength, speed, mental acuity, you get the idea.
If he had lower ethics he could have been the security consultant for Marcone. Lara would probably pay quite a bit to have him on her payroll as well.
Mort seems to be doing fine as a spiritual whatever he is.
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Since when does wizarding not pay?
Harry makes money finding people, lost items, consulting for CPD, and being a warden.
He could open up a potion shop. Levitation, escape, love, weightloss, pick-me-up, stealth we know he can make. Add in some super strength, speed, mental acuity, you get the idea.
If he had lower ethics he could have been the security consultant for Marcone. Lara would probably pay quite a bit to have him on her payroll as well.
Mort seems to be doing fine as a spiritual whatever he is.
Devil's Advocate here, but Harry is the vast exception, and in doing so openly has earned himself enemies (or at least general antagonism) on the council. And Mort nearly starved his Magic to DEATH trying to wrangle cash out of it.
Most Wizards make money by living long enough to become an Old Money Family all by themselves.
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A while ago, there used to be a topic in this forum about ways to make money through magic. I wonder what happened to it?
We know the Council also has moneymancers (so called by Jim) who keep their finances going. But I don't think most wizards make a living through magic directly. I find that extremely unlikely that most people in the Council use their magic for financial gain, yet Eb would refuse to teach Dresden during his apprentice days.
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Other supernatural customers have lots of money too. Just sayin'
You don't have to tell your patients that you are using magic to heal them, if you are a healer.
Harry needn't advertise that he's a wizard. He could gain a reputation as a PI for "special" cases just fine without telling his clients what exactly he's doing to achieve it. He might even make a lot more money that way.
You could run a security firm with a mix of wizards, minor talents and pure mortals (clued-ins).
An enchanter might make very expensive toys for rich Venatori and the like.
Don't forget the criminal applications of magic. Robbing a bank is not against the Laws of Magic. ;)
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A while ago, there used to be a topic in this forum about ways to make money through magic. I wonder what happened to it?
We know the Council also has moneymancers (so called by Jim) who keep their finances going. But I don't think most wizards make a living through magic directly. I find that extremely unlikely that most people in the Council use their magic for financial gain, yet Eb would refuse to teach Dresden during his apprentice days.
While the council as an Organization has "Moneymancers" to keep the lights on, the often repeated standard for individual members is to simply live Long enough to accumulate investment interest. Eb owns a Farm, which for him could easily have been made to produced something (at least in Peacetime) with and without magic. I could see Harry's lessons going one of two ways: either Eb would avoid Magical chores to keep Harry from learning to rely on Magic for petty things, or else he'd teach him that earth-moving spell by having him plow a field or pull a stump with it.
As far as the rest of the magical community, the Council doesnt get involved short of the Laws, they even let Binder roam free on the technicalities. I have to assume there is a long-standing magical arms race (another thread has me comparing it to Cyber security, which I think fits), you have your White Hats and Black Hats, but all are just constantly trying got find ways around the oppositions tricks. I guarantee you there are Magical Defenses and Contractors and and Heists aplenty in Vegas.
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Why would there be an Magical Arms Race? Are the different people's magic different from one another? An example being that only Mortals can summon outsiders.
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Why would there be an Magical Arms Race? Are the different people's magic different from one another? An example being that only Mortals can summon outsiders.
I meant that in the sense of magic within the Mortal World and between Humans. For example, I assume Las Vegas will have magically clued in Caseno owners (like non-baron Marcone) since the town is going to be a magnet for new low-level practitioners that think they have a magical trick that will get them quick cash; and that will be a constantly evolving thing.
Put another way, I imagine that Monoc has competitors and not all of them are secretly run by gods or monsters.
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I meant that in the sense of magic within the Mortal World and between Humans. For example, I assume Las Vegas will have magically clued in Caseno owners (like non-baron Marcone) since the town is going to be a magnet for new low-level practitioners that think they have a magical trick that will get them quick cash; and that will be a constantly evolving thing.
Put another way, I imagine that Monoc has competitors and not all of them are secretly run by gods or monsters.
Ah, that makes sense. For that matter, maybe the Librarians?
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In White Night, Dresden does say that the reason the wards around his house are stronger is because he makes Molly reinforce them. We know she also works on potions quite a bit, and that she was in charge of making tracking spells for him to use in a story or 2. But yeah, overall, magic doesn't pay, but there's not a lot of gruntwork involved in it.
Magic apparently pays very well for some Wizards. Harry comments to Molly that some Wizards use their abilities to make themselves rich. Harry could use his powers to make a lot more money than we've seen him do, if he was less concerned about non-monetary factors than he is.
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Devil's Advocate here, but Harry is the vast exception, and in doing so openly has earned himself enemies (or at least general antagonism) on the council. And Mort nearly starved his Magic to DEATH trying to wrangle cash out of it.
That's because Mort didn't believe in what he was doing, and that short-circuited his own powers. Harry is the exception in how little profit he makes.
Most Wizards make money by living long enough to become an Old Money Family all by themselves.
That only works if you have money to put into the process to start the ball rolling.
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That's because Mort didn't believe in what he was doing, and that short-circuited his own powers. Harry is the exception in how little profit he makes.
The amount of profit involved doesnt really make a difference to harry, but Harry had already bargained away any chance of wealth to Lea back when he was a kid, so he never expected more than humble living. Mort was unable to make a real living using his magic Honestly (presumably because people dont go to psychics for honesty), so he had to start faking it to wring more cash which in turn killed his magic.
That only works if you have money to put into the process to start the ball rolling.
The expectation is that over a long enough timeline anyone can accumulate the starting capital. Granted Highlander showed that not every immortal will have the self-restraint and foresight to actually do it, but in theory the Wizards Council is going to have more intelligent members than the randomly assigned Quickening.
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People are people, even if wizards. There are high income people who are bad savers or who focus their cash on other priorities. There are people who could earn a lot of money that do not for many reasons (different focus/use of their time or liabilities of being unable to work well in modern world). Compound interest over centuries is powerful, but realistically it is only going to build up substantial investments if you save a lot each year. And even long term investors occasionally invest badly and lose their shirt.
What this means is what while a number of wizards are wealthy, others are just comfortable and others are probably not very wealthy at all. So while I expect the white council organization to be very wealthy, when it comes to individual wizards, wealth is going to be uneven although with few old wizards being poor.
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The amount of profit involved doesnt really make a difference to harry, but Harry had already bargained away any chance of wealth to Lea back when he was a kid, so he never expected more than humble living.
No he didn't. He bargained away his life and freedom, nothing else. Harry lives on next-to-nothing because he's a self-flagelating twit that thinks if he has anything more he'll magically turn into Sauron one day.
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No he didn't. He bargained away his life and freedom, nothing else. Harry lives on next-to-nothing because he's a self-flagelating twit that thinks if he has anything more he'll magically turn into Sauron one day.
Mab indicated otherwise in their first meeting:
"The bargain has already been made. You gave your life, your fortune, your future, in exchange for power."
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Mab indicated otherwise in their first meeting:
Don't think she meant monetary value, but fortune like the cookie lol. He gave up his ability to pursue happiness more or less. the letter of the deals mentions no financials.
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Don't think she meant monetary value, but fortune like the cookie lol. He gave up his ability to pursue happiness more or less. the letter of the deals mentions no financials.
Well, I disagree. I think what you describe was already covered under the "Future" clause :)
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Well, I disagree. I think what you describe was already covered under the "Future" clause :)
And in true fae fashion I'd call you back to the attention to the actual wording. Which is less disputable than interpretations on word usage. ;)
for·tune.
[ˈfôrCHən]
NOUN
1.chance or luck as an external, arbitrary force affecting human affairs:
"some malicious act of fortune keeps them separate"
synonyms: chance · accident · coincidence · serendipity · destiny ·
[more]
•luck, especially good luck:
"this astounding piece of good fortune that has befallen me"
synonyms: luck · fate · destiny · predestination · the stars ·
[more]
•
(fortunes)
the success or failure of a person or enterprise over a period of time or in the course of a particular activity:
"he is credited with turning around the company's fortunes"
I notice hindsight 20/20 one definition is the stars... Mab implying he gave up his power as a starborn to her.... HOLY, just as Harry gets a piece of Mab, I wonder if Mab gets a piece of Harry to fullfil the circuit ???
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And in true fae fashion I'd call you back to the attention to the actual wording. Which is less disputable than interpretations on word usage. ;)I notice hindsight 20/20 one definition is the stars... Mab implying he gave up his power as a starborn to her.... HOLY, just as Harry gets a piece of Mab, I wonder if Mab gets a piece of Harry to fullfil the circuit ???
Yup, your running with Def#1/2, I see it as more likely Def#3. WE can both be right or wrong or any combination, I think.
Re. the Stars thing, wouldnt read too much into that. I think that's just as an extension of astrology being a popular way to study and/or represent Luck; Ive seen "The Cards" and "The Leaves" used exactly the same when those were the preferred methods of fortune-telling.
But until I see something definitive otherwise, I like to think that all his bad financial luck up to and including Larry Fowler is all a result of the universe (or the Fae) enforcing that aspect of his Bargain. Mostly because it amuses me, but also because I honestly read her statement that way.
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His next outing after collecting all those diamonds will probably sway you... probably. unless he looses them, dammit ;(
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His next outing after collecting all those diamonds will probably sway you... probably. unless he looses them, dammit ;(
Not an issue, because the original terms of that deal have not been in place since SK :)
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Aren't the terms of his bargain with the Leansidhe void anyway?
Lea sold her claim over Harry to Mab, which Dresden renegotiated into the 3 favours in Summer Knight.
Of which Harry still owes one, I'm sure that will come into play should he ever weasel his way out of being the Winter Knight, but the wording of his deal with the Leansidhe no longer applies.
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Aren't the terms of his bargain with the Leansidhe void anyway?
Lea sold her claim over Harry to Mab, which Dresden renegotiated into the 3 favours in Summer Knight.
Of which Harry still owes one, I'm sure that will come into play should he ever weasel his way out of being the Winter Knight, but the wording of his deal with the Leansidhe no longer applies.
I think so, yes.
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Aren't the terms of his bargain with the Leansidhe void anyway?
Lea sold her claim over Harry to Mab, which Dresden renegotiated into the 3 favours in Summer Knight.
Of which Harry still owes one, I'm sure that will come into play should he ever weasel his way out of being the Winter Knight, but the wording of his deal with the Leansidhe no longer applies.
This is true, but it doesn't free Harry from whatever the terms of the deal that was between Leah and Margaret.
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This is true, but it doesn't free Harry from whatever the terms of the deal that was between Leah and Margaret.
True, the Godmother thing is still in play, whatever that means (the relationship is annoyingly non-specific :P).
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Not an issue, because the original terms of that deal have not been in place since SK :)
Decided to go back to this with our recent convo. How is it important if he gave up such things or if his fortune is part of any bargain if original bargain not in place? ??? it seems illogical to argue about something then turn around and say it's not applicable. I'm confuzzled by the logic here, explain?
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Decided to go back to this with our recent convo. How is it important if he gave up such things or if his fortune is part of any bargain if original bargain not in place? ??? it seems illogical to argue about something then turn around and say it's not applicable. I'm confuzzled by the logic here, explain?
Ok, retracing our steps:
The tangent started on the assertion (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,49876.msg2283334.html#msg2283334)that Mort and Harry were different because Mort /expected/ to make money from his magic and was Failing, whereas Harry was different (I wasnt every entirely clear on why you thought so).
I asserted that Harry's historic lifestyle of barely scrapping by on a PI's income and living in a constantly derided hole in the ground was in large parts a result of the Bargain he made as a child, supported by the observation it only began to turn around after that bargain was out of play (ie after SK).
We debated the likelihood of that based on the different usages of "Fortune" with me in favor of the monetary wealth definition and you preferring the "Luck" side of it.
The you said that the recent monetary windfall in SG might change my mind on the Money Vs Luck definition of Fortune, but I said that isnt a useful datapoint because it happened long after the bargain restricting his ability to amass a "Fortune" had long since been circumvented.
Does that make sense? :)
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This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far. I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now? Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.
One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right? With the population the way it is, shouldn't we have seen some new apprentices taken on by wizards now thanks to the Paranet?
I can see why Harry might not have been in a position to be taking any new apprentices on recently :) but shouldn't we hear about an American wizard or the young wardens in America having apprentices since there should be new apprentices coming in?
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This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far. I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now? Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.
One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right? With the population the way it is, shouldn't we have seen some new apprentices taken on by wizards now thanks to the Paranet?
I can see why Harry might not have been in a position to be taking any new apprentices on recently :) but shouldn't we hear about an American wizard or the young wardens in America having apprentices since there should be new apprentices coming in?
It's been about 6 books since the Paranet was founded at the end of WN, which is seven years in-world. As of Chnges, the idea was only starting to very slowly gain steam in the Council; after Changes it lost it's primary advocate on the Council. And part of the lack of support int he Council is likely due to the general Council population's distrust of Harry in particular. On the Paranet's side, it's being run by Elaine, who is not going to go too far out of her way to incorperate the Council in whatever the paranet is doing, especially after loosing Harry's support. Besides, since then the Council has been all but ignoring the US, so the Paranet has been forced to go to Marcone or the White Court for support, while teh Council was focused on the Fomor elsewhere.
“Prevention,” I said. “Find them early and they don’t go warlock.”
“Resources.” She sighed. We’d had this talk before. “If the entire Council did nothing but Warden duty, full-time, it still wouldn’t be enough.”
“Education,” I said. “Use the Paranet. Get the smaller talents to help identify the gifted.”
She smiled at me and said, “I’m still building support for it. It’s a good idea, Harry. It might even work. The problem is making some of the others in the Council understand it. They see it only as a security risk, especially after Peabody. But it’s a good idea. Its time will come—eventually.”
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Ok, retracing our steps:
The tangent started on the assertion (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,49876.msg2283334.html#msg2283334)that Mort and Harry were different because Mort /expected/ to make money from his magic and was Failing, whereas Harry was different (I wasnt every entirely clear on why you thought so).
I asserted that Harry's historic lifestyle of barely scrapping by on a PI's income and living in a constantly derided hole in the ground was in large parts a result of the Bargain he made as a child, supported by the observation it only began to turn around after that bargain was out of play (ie after SK).
We debated the likelihood of that based on the different usages of "Fortune" with me in favor of the monetary wealth definition and you preferring the "Luck" side of it.
The you said that the recent monetary windfall in SG might change my mind on the Money Vs Luck definition of Fortune, but I said that isnt a useful datapoint because it happened long after the bargain restricting his ability to amass a "Fortune" had long since been circumvented.
Does that make sense? :)
Ok, ok I get'cha now :)
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This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far. I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now? Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.
One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right?
Not precisely. It's not just lack of training that makes the difference between a Wizard and a lesser talent. You have to be born with the raw potential or you won't make Wizard level no matter how hard you try. Charity would never have made the Council, for ex, no matter how good her training was, because she lacked the raw strength necessary.
But also, though sorcerers have a bad rep in the DV, that's only partly deserved. It's partly a function of Council elite attitude, which kind of feeds the problem. There's a big difference in the DV between a sorcerer and a warlock, though too many sorcerers end up becoming warlocks, that's part of what the Paranet was supposed to help with.
The Paranet could be useful in identifying that 1 talent in a 100 (or 200 or whatever) that has Council potential, yes, esp. if the Council worked with them. Since those are also the same talents who made the most spectacularly dangerous warlocks, it serves two functions at once.
But it's just about as important to identify the minor talents and steer them away from the black magic early. The Korean kid, for ex, might have done fine in life if somehow had caught him early. A lot of innocent victims might have been saved that way, too.
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Not precisely. It's not just lack of training that makes the difference between a Wizard and a lesser talent. You have to be born with the raw potential or you won't make Wizard level no matter how hard you try. Charity would never have made the Council, for ex, no matter how good her training was, because she lacked the raw strength necessary.
Yes and No. Per WOJ it's like any other Skill in the real world, like music or sports or whatever. Anyone can get better with dedicated work. Some are born with natural talent, but will always suck because they never develop it, while others are born with enough disadvantage (ie akin to being tone deaf) that they'll never be able to match the greats with hard work. But that's not to say that a very dedicated person couldnt reach the Council eventually. Their magic likely wont much resemble Harry's brute force approach or even Molly's natural grace, and would likely lean more toward the study and slow ritual approach.
Most people in the Dresdenverse do not believe in magic which, of course, hinders any inclination towards investigating and practicing the craft. If, however, an uninitiate found interest and conviction in the craft, would he or she be able to delve into it? Would he or she be able to harness the very same forces that Harry seems so adept at manipulating? Is one's ability to utilize magic directly proportional to some genetic/descendant factor, or can anyone pick up the craft given the proper training and exposure to resources?
Assuming that any human being can wield magic, does one's biology have anything to do with how easily he or she can access magical energies? Storm Front spoke so frequently about how much power Harry possessed, and he clearly was more than a match for Victor Sells; but I wonder if that is a result of the amount of time Harry has been practicing and amassing power, or the amount of potential power he has above Victor's potential?
Discussed before, I think, but I can give the summary version here: Using magick in the Dresden universe is like absolutely any other activity. Some people are born great at it. Some people are born with no skill whatsoever. Some people spend a lot of time and effort increasing their innate talent, and hard work can make up a lot of the difference in innate talent. Some people born with a fantastic talent never realize they have it, and consequently never use it, or develop it. Talents left undeveloped tend to wither away, and even the talented, if they don't work and practice, can't ever be really first rate.
So, a wizard like Harry is someone born with a tremendous talent for accessing magic, and then they spend a lot of time working and developing that talent. Someone like Victor had some kind of innate talent, made a deal to get themselves a bunch of extra power, but while they might have the same kind of "musclepower" Harry has (or at least been in his weight class), someone like that doesn't have Harry's experience or skill.
Put it in brawling terms. Victor was a big, mean, strong guy made dangerous by LSD and too much booze. Dresden, by comparison, is a professional heavyweight martial artist/bouncer/bodyguard well versed in real combat. Now, that big mean drunk might, if the professional is stupid or taken off guard, smash his face into the concrete. But part of being a pro means being alert and careful in a potential confrontation. If he can face the drunk on his feet and alert, he'll beat the drunk most of the time. Probably.
(Real fighting, alas, is extremely chaotic and unpredictable and even being the best is no protection against bad judgment or simply bad luck.)
Anyway. Most people could probably do SOMETHING with magic, just like most people could probably learn to sing a little. Some people are just born with an incredible voice, and training only enhances them. Others can't carry a tune in a bucket, and no amount of training will ever do them much good. But there's a world of difference between an American Idol winner and, well, all the people they love to show on the first several audition episodes.
Of course, you can cheat a little more easily when it comes to magic. I suppose you can cheat when it comes to sports, via using steroids and so on, though it isn't as simple to cheat at singing. :) Cheating with magic generally involves you trading something to something bad to give you more power. It doesn't make you any more skilled at USING that power, and you generally have to be stupid or desperate to make the deal to begin with, but you CAN cheat. There are benign sources of power out there, who might be happy to help you, but the truly benevolent among such beings generally help you get stronger by, say, giving you lessons, or encouraging you to work out, rather than just dumping it onto your head. Bottom line: there ain't no free lunch.
Bad guys love the quick and easy path. Forever will it dominate your destiny.
Jim
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It's been about 6 books since the Paranet was founded at the end of WN, which is seven years in-world. As of Chnges, the idea was only starting to very slowly gain steam in the Council; after Changes it lost it's primary advocate on the Council. And part of the lack of support int he Council is likely due to the general Council population's distrust of Harry in particular. On the Paranet's side, it's being run by Elaine, who is not going to go too far out of her way to incorperate the Council in whatever the paranet is doing, especially after loosing Harry's support. Besides, since then the Council has been all but ignoring the US, so the Paranet has been forced to go to Marcone or the White Court for support, while teh Council was focused on the Fomor elsewhere.
Yes, the paranet is being forced to largely go elsewhere for help, and Elaine doesn't trust the council, but that doesn't stop everyone from knowing that they are the ones to go to if you have talent. When you find someone who was born with the talent to be a member of the council (who doesn't painstakingly set it aside) there are only really two choices - get council training, or go it alone or get it somewhere else. The second has been shown to generally produce warlocks or get humans into trouble with supernatural forces. I think even the paranet or Elaine, if they found a council level talent, would recommend they go join the council. Which means we should be hearing about apprentices being found through the paranet, and seeing an explosion of American (since that is the only area widely paranetted so far) apprentices relatively speaking. But we haven't.
It might be that council level talent is just still so low that the improved levels of council recruitment/detection means finding 2 wizards every ten years vs. 1, and thus the difference won't be noticeable, but considering that Justin was able to find both Elaine and Harry at the same age as Council level talent, seems to indicate that council level talent should be more common than that.
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This being the case, you have to wonder how many folks go through life, ever even knowing they had a talent, yet unconsciously using it. Had they had the opportunity to be trained, they might have made even more of themselves from a Council perspective.
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This thread did make me realize we've seen a problem with the series so far. I mean, Harry helped start the Paranet, what approximately 9 years/books ago now? Sure, it took a few years to take off, but as off the last few books its going strong.
One of its main purposes was to identify upcoming people with talent and get them training, thus increasing the number of wizards and decreasing the number of sorcerers, right? With the population the way it is, shouldn't we have seen some new apprentices taken on by wizards now thanks to the Paranet?
Yes and No.
Yes - Paranet was set up. Harry has certainly provided some training that is primarily defensive in nature (how to deal with supernatural threats) and it is certain that the paranet made ie easier for minor talents to find other minor talents who can provide some training as well as some collective protection.
No - There has been no serious attempt by white council wizards to engage in any systemic training of minor talents in the paranet. So it has been more "almost blind paranet elders teaching/leading the blind" type training. Probably a few people have been identified/recruited to the white council because of involvement in the paranet, but no extensive testing or training or recruitment has happened. White Council is focused on the war and its own internal conflicts.
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This being the case, you have to wonder how many folks go through life, ever even knowing they had a talent, yet unconsciously using it. Had they had the opportunity to be trained, they might have made even more of themselves from a Council perspective.
Those characters, like Tilly, I find fascinating actually.
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All the new baby Wardens had to be found somewhere. It's possible that the Paranet actually helped with that. Luccio liked the idea.
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Yes and No.
Yes - Paranet was set up. Harry has certainly provided some training that is primarily defensive in nature (how to deal with supernatural threats) and it is certain that the paranet made ie easier for minor talents to find other minor talents who can provide some training as well as some collective protection.
No - There has been no serious attempt by white council wizards to engage in any systemic training of minor talents in the paranet. So it has been more "almost blind paranet elders teaching/leading the blind" type training. Probably a few people have been identified/recruited to the white council because of involvement in the paranet, but no extensive testing or training or recruitment has happened. White Council is focused on the war and its own internal conflicts.
Agreed, though they do have knowledgeable resources so the "elders" arent entirely blind. Both Harry and Elaine we know work with them extensively. Carlos works with both of them and is a progressive sort so I'd be surprised if he hadnt helped out with the local Paranet since he and Elaine are in the same town. And any of the wardens directly under their command are going to have been made aware of the Paranet at least enough to respond to a distress call After all the founding point of the Paranet was to avoid a repeat of WN.
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All the new baby Wardens had to be found somewhere. It's possible that the Paranet actually helped with that. Luccio liked the idea.
I got the impression that they were all apprentices, since the Council meeting in Chicago anyway. We know that Carlos was there in a Brown robe.
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Yes and No. Per WOJ it's like any other Skill in the real world, like music or sports or whatever. Anyone can get better with dedicated work. Some are born with natural talent, but will always suck because they never develop it, while others are born with enough disadvantage (ie akin to being tone deaf) that they'll never be able to match the greats with hard work. But that's not to say that a very dedicated person couldnt reach the Council eventually. Their magic likely wont much resemble Harry's brute force approach or even Molly's natural grace, and would likely lean more toward the study and slow ritual approach.
To a point, yes. But there are limits. A person with tremendous skill and modest natural strength might make the Council after many years, if they practice and focus and work at it. But you have to have the minimum level of strength, or it's got going to happen.
Remember, Council-level magic isn't just the best, it's the best of the best. Playing at that level is going to require a certain minimum amount of available energy, no matter how skilled you are. Some Council-wizards have lower native strengths than others. Molly is jealous of Harry's raw strength, and even Anastasia admits that she can't come close to matching Harry for 'bench-pressing' magical energy. But pretty much any Council wizard is going to have to be born with both a good dose of strength and a minimum level of natural talent, or it won't happen no matter how hard they try.
It's like a 5'0" skinny guy who practices really hard, really refines his skill, until he's an awesome basketball player...for a 5'0" skinny guy. He still isn't likely to ever play for the Chicago Bulls no matter how hard he tries.
In this context, the Bulls are like the White Council. Who can be 6'9" and in good shape, but you'll never play for the Bulls unless you work out and practice hard and long even so. You can be 6'9" and work hard and get skilled, but fail to make the Bulls because you're so nearsighted. Or you could be 6'9" and have great vision and work hard but also just naturally clumsy. No Bulls contract.
To make the Council, you've got to have the basic strength, the skill to use it, the will to learn the skills and maintain them, the self-discipline to use the magic and not break the Laws, the will to hold your own with the other Wizards, your talents have to be general enough that you're not just a magical idiot savant, the brains to have that kind of power and not blow yourself up, etc.
Remember back in the early books when Harry compared himself to a magical thug, and he and others contrasted his clumsy magic with mages like Elaine, or other Council members? Well, he was a magical thug back then, by Council standards. But the fact that he was on the Council means he was more delicate, more skilled, more refined, even then, than 99% of all magic-users.
When you add all that up, what you get is that Council-potential almost has to be inborn in reality, whatever the theory is.
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Yes, the paranet is being forced to largely go elsewhere for help, and Elaine doesn't trust the council, but that doesn't stop everyone from knowing that they are the ones to go to if you have talent.
But others things might very well stop 'everyone from knowing that they are the ones to go if you have talent'.
We see the DV through Harry's eyes, and so we really don't know what the Paranet looks like to the typical minor talent or commoner. We don't know how well-known it is, we don't know how trusted they are, and we don't know if other people are actively trying to cast doubt on it or sabotage it (in fact, I suspect that this is precisely the case).
A newly emerged talent might be directed to the Paranet by the magical community, but first that new talent has to discover that:
1. There even is a magical community, and...
2. How to find them, and who to trust once you're there.
Neither of those items is trivial. A new talent who doesn't know what they're doing, or even that what they're doing is magic, is as likely to end up with a Gregor as an Elaine, or more. If they go looking for information, they might come across the Paranet, but they're also likely to come across 38 other sources as well, of varying degrees of accuracy and wildly varying safety.
Add in the fact that some supernatural predators are going to be actively watching for and trying to snare vulnerable, desperate young talents, and things begin to look kind of dire. It's a good bet that a good percentage of young new magical talents, when they start experimenting with what they can do, and looking for guidance or others like themselves, end up in the clutches of White Vampires, people like Victor Sells or Justin DuMorne, or worse.
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A newly emerged talent might be directed to the Paranet by the magical community, but first that new talent has to discover that:
1. There even is a magical community, and...
2. How to find them, and who to trust once you're there.
Heh, heh. I wonder how the fact all the street level practitioners are now seen using advanced tech like the internet is going to effect the widespread belief practitioners effect technology, even and especially in those new recruits.
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I think the primary qualification for white council is the power. If you lack the skill, you are an apprentice. If you lack wisdom - apprentice or warlock (depending on how your lack of wisdom manifests). If you have skill, a measure of wisdom (or at least not obviously dangerous/stupid/deranged) and the power, then you are a full white council wizard.
I would personally like to see more of the middle tier people. Enough power to be dangerous, but not white council material. Alphas are in that category as is that "magic makes me fast" cult leader in Ghost story. Elaine and the ectomancer were both assumed (incorrectly) by the white council to fall within that category. They have to be more common that WC wizards, but we see fairly few of them in the series to date.
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But others things might very well stop 'everyone from knowing that they are the ones to go if you have talent'.
We see the DV through Harry's eyes, and so we really don't know what the Paranet looks like to the typical minor talent or commoner. We don't know how well-known it is, we don't know how trusted they are, and we don't know if other people are actively trying to cast doubt on it or sabotage it (in fact, I suspect that this is precisely the case).
A newly emerged talent might be directed to the Paranet by the magical community, but first that new talent has to discover that:
1. There even is a magical community, and...
2. How to find them, and who to trust once you're there.
Neither of those items is trivial. A new talent who doesn't know what they're doing, or even that what they're doing is magic, is as likely to end up with a Gregor as an Elaine, or more. If they go looking for information, they might come across the Paranet, but they're also likely to come across 38 other sources as well, of varying degrees of accuracy and wildly varying safety.
Add in the fact that some supernatural predators are going to be actively watching for and trying to snare vulnerable, desperate young talents, and things begin to look kind of dire. It's a good bet that a good percentage of young new magical talents, when they start experimenting with what they can do, and looking for guidance or others like themselves, end up in the clutches of White Vampires, people like Victor Sells or Justin DuMorne, or worse.
According to Bigfoot on Campus, it has become surprisingly easy to get informed post-Paranet. Sounded like it's basically the top Google hit as soon as they go lookinng, once people have had an experience that makes them actually Believe. Beyond that, well "Who Do I trust" is an issue regardless of the circumstances or walk of Life.
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According to Bigfoot on Campus, it has become surprisingly easy to get informed post-Paranet. Sounded like it's basically the top Google hit as soon as they go lookinng, once people have had an experience that makes them actually Believe. Beyond that, well "Who Do I trust" is an issue regardless of the circumstances or walk of Life.
Yeah, it's always an issue, but the stakes are far higher for magic-users than most.
A young practitioner with no reliable guidance is just as likely to end up in Lara's bed or being trained by a Kemmlerite as not. The predators (of various sorts) are actively looking for just these young mages, either because they can make use of them, or because the are delicious, or both.
If such a young practitioner is really lucky, they meet up with Harry or Thomas or Elaine. But for every Harry there are several Gregors. For every Thomas there are several Madrigals and Laras. Etc. It's shaky odds.
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Yeah, it's always an issue, but the stakes are far higher for magic-users than most.
A young practitioner with no reliable guidance is just as likely to end up in Lara's bed or being trained by a Kemmlerite as not. The predators (of various sorts) are actively looking for just these young mages, either because they can make use of them, or because the are delicious, or both.
If such a young practitioner is really lucky, they meet up with Harry or Thomas or Elaine. But for every Harry there are several Gregors. For every Thomas there are several Madrigals and Laras. Etc. It's shaky odds.
True, but now there's an active national organization of well-meaning kindred who are just trying to help. For every Lara or Gregor there are now thousands of Paraneters. In at least one city they even can offer daycare.
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True, but now there's an active national organization of well-meaning kindred who are just trying to help. For every Lara or Gregor there are now thousands of Paraneters. In at least one city they even can offer daycare.
You know, I could totally see a TV show about paranetters discovering talents.
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According to Bigfoot on Campus, it has become surprisingly easy to get informed post-Paranet.
It depends on what you are looking for. if you want info about creatures or what might be possible or news about magic related events, then the post paranet world is probably quite helpful. If you want training in how to do magic, then I suspect the paranet driven change has been quite small. Learning magic is hard and real magical texts are rarely available.
Yea maybe harry went and scanned his library of books on wizardry and posted to the internet, but somehow I do not see that as having happened. All the wizards (including Harry) are pretty hard core about not putting dangerous knowledge in the hands of people untrained to deal with it. And Magic is dangerous - and I suspect hard to learn just from books. And that assumes you can easily exclude the books on magic that are basically garbage or poorly written or traps by dark creatures.
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...Learning magic is hard and real magical texts are rarely available...
...And that assumes you can easily exclude the books on magic that are basically garbage or poorly written or traps by dark creatures.
This last is important and true. In fact, as we saw in Dead Beat, valid magical texts are out there. For ex, in Bock's bookstore Harry ran across a copy of Elementary Magic, an introductory magic text written by Ebenezar. Justin had used that text to teach Harry and Elaine.
But to cite an example I've used before, imagine a newbie finds a copy of Elementary Magic by Ebenezar McCoy and Basic Magic by H. Relmmek (i.e. Kemmler). One source is trustworthy, one is toxic and worse than useless. But how is the innocent newbie to know that he can trust McCoy but Relmmek is a monster out of nightmare?
To make it worse, once the newbie finds out that the Council and Wardens exist, there's the problem that from the point of view on an innocent, idealistic kid or newbie, the Wardens look like the bad guys. The Wardens kill people for breaking Laws they never heard of or knew about. They're freaking terrifying. It's going to be hard for a 16 year old newbie to believe that the Wardens, who beheaded a friend of his for breaking a Law neither one had ever even heard of, or for using magic in what looks like innocent or even admirable purposes, are actually the good guys (usually).
To a naïve observer, Hannah's complaint about being under a death penalty for defending herself from rapists looks like a case of a victim being hounded by bullies or worse. By the time you discover that it's more complicated than that, it might be too late.
The Wardens are also annoying. They tell you what you're allowed to read, who you're allowed to talk to, what magic you can study and what you have to run away from, and they couldn't care less about your supposed 'rights' under the Constitution or the common law or whatever. You can't read that book or tell that person about something because the Wardens said so, and that's the end of the discussion.
But they also are more or less the good guys. Whereas the real bad guys may well pretend to be friendly, easy-going, kind, etc. By the time you find out the truth, it may well be too late.
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Exactly, that's why it was so easy for the White Court to frame the Wardens in WN. But that might be about to change too. One of the purposes of the Paranet was to improve the relationship between the magical community and the Wardens so this won't happen another time. There are several references to Elaine pushing something up to Carlos or Harry being on a mission for the Paranet. If the Wardens are seen helping people instead of just bullying them, more people are going to trust them. Bob even said he approved of the approach because it made the job easier in the long run.
btw: I think it was said somewhere that the Paranet isn't a US-based institution any more. That it is spreading in other countries. Some European chapters or something like that. Can anyone remember where that was mentioned?
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Harry said there were "branches" in several cities, including Canada, and that there would probably be some in Europe soon.
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Cant find any mention of the Paranet outside the US, in GS forward (not counting shorts). But they specifically mentioned Paranet cells in state all along the canadian border, so at the very least I expect they've jumped that border.
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Pretty sure it was during the conversation with Luccio in the Worry room. But I don't have my copy with me.
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Pretty sure it was during the conversation with Luccio in the Worry room. But I don't have my copy with me.
No, that talks about it's value, but not it's current scope.