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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: xman146 on July 06, 2017, 01:22:24 AM
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Now that Harry is back and will again be dealing with the wider world (as opposed to be being dead or stuck on an island), what are the chances that he's going to get a warden's sword (assuming Luccio can once again create them)? And what does every think his standing will be with the wardens and the council in general, now that he's the winter knight?
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I liked him using the Chinese sword in Changes... kinda fits with his inner geek and fighting style.
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I have to wonder if there is a sword hidden away for the warden of the well. The position might predate the swords, but it would be a powerful artifact to supplement him.
Just like how Harry can use McCoy staff, a warden could use warden tools. Also, he could borrow Mccoys warden sword, it is sure to be better than those off the shelf sword most warden have.
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The only appeal of a warden's sword is the ability to cut through enchantments. That, and the durability of a metal focus that doesn't snap in half when you use it to play Whack-A-Ghoul.
Personally, I like the idea of the Winter mantle being used to supplement his staff. He could use ice to form edges along four feet of its length, leaving him a two foot handle for his ice sword-staff. Not to mention he could use ice to make it a spear, or even a sickle.
Downside would be its weakness to iron. It'd do great against creatures, but against a regular sword, he'd be in trouble. But in a supernatural pinch, it'd do.
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If you follow the thematic connections between Harry Vs Odin/Merlin, you'd find a few things planted firmly in Harry's future. An offshoot of WK mantle, a broadsword, a hat.
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Why a broadsword and not a spear?
Specifically... Harry's just gotten a very, very powerful leaf-shaped blade that would look great attached to the end of his Wizard's staff...
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Why a broadsword and not a spear?
Specifically... Harry's just gotten a very, very powerful leaf-shaped blade that would look great attached to the end of his Wizard's staff...
Cause santa had the broadsword and Harry's mental view actually is starting to match Morgan's? Forgot offhand about the spear, lump that in their too for sure.
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Harry will never get a Warden Sword, half the reason that Jim had Luccio body-swapped was to prevent Harry getting something that useful. Besides, the man has enough crap to carry around as it is, any more equipment and he'd need to invent a bag of holding
Though if he did get a Warden Sword, the obvious choice would be a Sabre, since we know that Harry's preferred style of swordplay is fencing.
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Personally, I like the idea of the Winter mantle being used to supplement his staff. He could use ice to form edges along four feet of its length, leaving him a two foot handle for his ice sword-staff. Not to mention he could use ice to make it a spear, or even a sickle.
And just think of all the Game of Thrones pop culture references about White Walker ice weapons ...
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And just think of all the Game of Thrones pop culture references about White Walker ice weapons ...
Especially if he starts using ice armor similar to the stuff he had in Cold Days.
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Harry will never get a Warden Sword, half the reason that Jim had Luccio body-swapped was to prevent Harry getting something that useful. Besides, the man has enough crap to carry around as it is, any more equipment and he'd need to invent a bag of holding
Though if he did get a Warden Sword, the obvious choice would be a Sabre, since we know that Harry's preferred style of swordplay is fencing.
Better to look for reasons behind the woj, any woj. It's like playing clue lol.
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Personally, I like the idea of the Winter mantle being used to supplement his staff. He could use ice to form edges along four feet of its length, leaving him a two foot handle for his ice sword-staff. Not to mention he could use ice to make it a spear, or even a sickle.
Didn't he form dagger-like ice formations in the battle with sharkface in Cold Days?
A thought I had was if he had his staff tips shod with the same metal that the fey use for swords; but have them augmentible with ice or fire magic. I'm sure Mab has a creature in her service that could provide something for Sir Harry...
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I'm sure Mab has a creature in her service that could provide something for Sir Harry...
And have Harry go even deeper in her debt?
(http://rs61.pbsrc.com/albums/h71/DogByte6RER/LMAO.gif~c200)
No seriously though, Harry hates working for Mab as it is, and he isn't PAID for his duties as the Knight. If he wants help, HE'S the one who has to pay for it.
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And have Harry go even deeper in her debt?
If he wants a fae metal spear point for his staff, he'd probably end up owing a favour to the fae smith.
At this point, he's probably better off paying the svartalves in diamonds for any smithing he needs done.
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Why get a fancy spear or sword when he has a perfectly serviceable club on hand that can fire ice bullets? Swords are for the Jackson Pollocks of the magic world. Harry is a gorilla with finger paints.
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I have to wonder if there is a sword hidden away for the warden of the well. The position might predate the swords, but it would be a powerful artifact to supplement him.
Just like how Harry can use McCoy staff, a warden could use warden tools. Also, he could borrow Mccoys warden sword, it is sure to be better than those off the shelf sword most warden have.
Has there been any indicators that McCoy has a 'warden' sword? he works with the Wardens and helps direct them, but I've never seen him in a gray cloak, aside from CI, but I don't think that was a warden cloak. And 'most' wardens don't have off the shelf swords, they had been specifically made by Luccio for the individuals while she still had the ability to make them.
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Has there been any indicators that McCoy has a 'warden' sword? he works with the Wardens and helps direct them, but I've never seen him in a gray cloak, aside from CI, but I don't think that was a warden cloak. And 'most' wardens don't have off the shelf swords, they had been specifically made by Luccio for the individuals while she still had the ability to make them.
Never seen on page, which is why it was news that this short confirmed he had been a warden.
The swords are enchanted items, which means they need maintenance. That's probably on the user, after Luccio initially made them - perhaps like some of the foci Harry has given up on, Eb simply used his time on other pursuits since leaving the Wardens.
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Never seen on page, which is why it was news that this short confirmed he had been a warden.
The swords are enchanted items, which means they need maintenance. That's probably on the user, after Luccio initially made them - perhaps like some of the foci Harry has given up on, Eb simply used his time on other pursuits since leaving the Wardens.
Not to pick nits, but ... Harrys' stuff needs to be maintained because he uses inferior materials in his enchantments. There is no reason to believe that, in the process of creating the sword for a particular individual, Luccio didn't link it to that person's spirit/soul, and that is what is powering the enchantments.
So, had Luccio created a sword for Eb, it's entirely possible he still has it. But why use a sword when you have a blackstaff?
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Better materials means not needing maintenance as often, sure (in which case maybe Luccio was doing the maintenance, and her incapacitation hasn't been an issue for the few surviving veteran wardens because the few surviving veterans of the old guard simply haven't hit the required service deadlines on their blades yet).
But soul linkages would probably fall under the same reason it would be a terrible idea for Harry to use soulfire in crafting - if an adversary ever gets hold of the blade, its owner is screwed.
Partly though, I think it might just be considered disrespectful of the active duty wardens to continue using the blade after retirement (sort of like how military members have a protocol against wearing their uniforms after discharge).
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Didn't he form dagger-like ice formations in the battle with sharkface in Cold Days?
A thought I had was if he had his staff tips shod with the same metal that the fey use for swords; but have them augmentible with ice or fire magic. I'm sure Mab has a creature in her service that could provide something for Sir Harry...
His fist became covered in a sharp icy gauntlet, if I recall, and later he got some ice claws and other bits on the island. It wouldn't surprise me if he could make an entire suit of armor out of ice.
At this point, he's probably better off paying the svartalves in diamonds for any smithing he needs done.
This seems like the best bet.
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McCoy might not be an active warden any more, but I could see him ensuring all his magical weapons and tools are well maintained. He would have the resources and talent to ensure his objects, are more long termed than what Harry has to depend on.
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Never seen on page, which is why it was news that this short confirmed he had been a warden.
The swords are enchanted items, which means they need maintenance. That's probably on the user, after Luccio initially made them - perhaps like some of the foci Harry has given up on, Eb simply used his time on other pursuits since leaving the Wardens.
ahh, I haven't read the short yet...
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McCoy might not be an active warden any more, but I could see him ensuring all his magical weapons and tools are well maintained. He would have the resources and talent to ensure his objects, are more long termed than what Harry has to depend on.
I totally agree with this.
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If McCoy had a sword, Im confident he'd still have it. Until recently there was no need to try to force an unmatched Sword onto a less that perfect fit, since Luccio could make them all custom for each warden, so there'd have been no need to attempt to recycle them.
That being said, (unless it's in the short which I have not finished) McCoy might have left Active Duty as a Warden before she started making them. If he'd moved on already she might not have had need or motivation to forge them for the broader council membership.
A third possibility is that all SC members were made one, since they are unarguably fantastically useful tools, so even if he didnt already have one he might have been gifted one on reach the SC. But there's been zero indication of a SC member using a sword that I can think of, and Langtry notably had no Sword in Changes when he was outfitted for War.
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If McCoy had a sword, Im confident he'd still have it. Until recently there was no need to try to force an unmatched Sword onto a less that perfect fit, since Luccio could make them all custom for each warden, so there'd have been no need to attempt to recycle them.
That being said, (unless it's in the short which I have not finished) McCoy might have left Active Duty as a Warden before she started making them. If he'd moved on already she might not have had need or motivation to forge them for the broader council membership.
A third possibility is that all SC members were made one, since they are unarguably fantastically useful tools, so even if he didnt already have one he might have been gifted one on reach the SC. But there's been zero indication of a SC member using a sword that I can think of, and Langtry notably had no Sword in Changes when he was outfitted for War.
This, for sure.
Plus we all know that a wizard's Preferred weapon is a staff.
Well, except for Morgan. But he's dead.
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This, for sure.
Plus we all know that a wizard's Preferred weapon is a staff.
Well, except for Morgan. But he's dead.
Wizards yes, but basically all wardens carry both, no? I know Luccio has both, and I though most of the others (including Claros and Morgan) did as well at one time or another? Granted all Wardens are under Luccio's Command and Swordsman appears to be mandatory now, but maybe not always.
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Wizards yes, but basically all wardens carry both, no? I know Luccio has both, and I though most of the others (including Claros and Morgan) did as well at one time or another? Granted all Wardens are under Luccio's Command and Swordsman appears to be mandatory now, but maybe not always.
Actually, I'd say no. Swords after Luccio changed weren't being given any longer. So, they all carry Staffs. And I'd Say the new ones all carry firearms, but not swords any longer.
The old guard, for sure, but not the newbies.
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It still feels reasonable that the white council should be able to give wardens magical protections or other defenses. Not super powerful ones perhaps, but some standard defensive and support equipment. Yes it takes effort to build and maintain, but there are a lot of non-wardens wizards who can do the initial build and there are not that many new wardens.
Each warden can maintain their own equipment.
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Oh, I agree, they should. Maybe they do, but we just haven't seen it yet.
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Actually, I'd say no. Swords after Luccio changed weren't being given any longer. So, they all carry Staffs. And I'd Say the new ones all carry firearms, but not swords any longer.
The old guard, for sure, but not the newbies.
As of DB Swordsmanship was considered a valuable enough skill to make it's training mandatory even when the warden in question had not particular talent for it (there was that one that died in DB as an example). I have to assume the justification for that was not purely because of the sword enchantments; if they were then a far better tactic would be to move the enchantment to some form that does require dedicated wielding, freeing up a hand for spells or staff fighting or guns.
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As of DB Swordsmanship was considered a valuable enough skill to make it's training mandatory even when the warden in question had not particular talent for it (there was that one that died in DB as an example). I have to assume the justification for that was not purely because of the sword enchantments; if they were then a far better tactic would be to move the enchantment to some form that does require dedicated wielding, freeing up a hand for spells or staff fighting or guns.
Was the training mandatory, or did that Wrden just pick up a sword because all the older Warden's had them?
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Was the training mandatory, or did that Wrden just pick up a sword because all the older Warden's had them?
They hand out swords to everyone as part of the uniform (regardless of sword-skill) and presumably hold classes. It's at least as mandatory as Council Membership :P
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welp this is the second appear of this threat
harry will get his sword but not a warden sword he is gonna get the sword of cross when he either time travels to merlin era or some one with enough power shove his tick skull and then voila lucio chan regains her ability to forge swords. And its knot about her body changed big G wants harry to be knight of cross so he keeps lucios potential locked until harry draws the kusunagi and fullfil his part of the bigger plot.
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Seeing as Harry is the de facto Uber Warden now with taking on the mantle of Demonreach he should get an Uber sword like Amoracchius/Excalibur for example, but wait he has it so I wonder.... sorry Khadgar didn't read your reply above, my bad.
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Seeing as Harry is the de facto Uber Warden now with taking on the mantle of Demonreach he should get an Uber sword like Amoracchius/Excalibur for example, but wait he has it so I wonder.... sorry Khadgar didn't read your reply above, my bad.
Uber-Sword. As in something big and powerful and phallic and weaponized. A "Boom-stick" as it where...
8)
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;D
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They hand out swords to everyone as part of the uniform (regardless of sword-skill) and presumably hold classes. It's at least as mandatory as Council Membership :P
Well, Harry is an example where it breaks down then, because he didn't get one, right?
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Well, Harry is an example where it breaks down then, because he didn't get one, right?
Insofar as anything Breaks Down if the sole supplier is lost. Harry might well have gotten one if PG and DB had fallen out in their original order (we know Molly would have most likely gotten a Grey Cloak at the very least). It wasnt a failing of the tactical philosophy or implementation, just a lack of redundancy to make the Swords a permanent resource.
Its also worth noting that the Grey Cloaks do appear to have some minor enchantments on them (blood wont stick to them) just not enchantments as Powerful or obvious as an integrated Mage Armor spell (or whatever variety).
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When Harry gets his sword, I see tons of highlander quotes and references.
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When Harry gets his sword, I see tons of Star Wars quotes and references.
FTFY. Because C'mon, it's Harry,.
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Well, Harry is an example where it breaks down then, because he didn't get one, right?
I thought the implication there is that some level of fencing instruction is part of the general Council apprentice curriculum, though I'm not sure I agree. Nobody seems to have been after Harry to teach Molly to fence, for one thing. And we don't know where or when Harry studied fencing to get to his stated description of OK at it but nowhere near good enough to challenge the serious swordsmen. There's never been a mention of whether Justin taught him that, Ebenezar did, or he decided some lessons after leaving Eb would be a useful skill.
In terms of a weapon though, I really can't see Dresden taking up Amoracchius at this point after all the buildup that it has to be meant for someone with the right biblical virtues, even without the WOJ that a sword for Harry isn't in the plan. The Warden of Demonreach has to walk in a lot of grey areas, whereas the Swords are for paladins, pure of heart.
If he's going to get any sort of special weapon, my money is on figuring out how the four of five artifacts from Hades' vault that he already has actually work. Many have speculated the 'knife' might be the head of the Spear of Destiny - if so, the foreshadowing of that being mounted on his staff is, uh, pretty strong. How cool would a showdown between Harry and Cristos be, with Cristos expecting the sword he kept as a former warden to undo Harry's staff, only for Harry to break his sword instead when they come to blows?
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I thought the implication there is that some level of fencing instruction is part of the general Council apprentice curriculum, though I'm not sure I agree. Nobody seems to have been after Harry to teach Molly to fence, for one thing.
[...]
I tend to agree. I think the issue is that in /peacetime/ the vast majority of apprentices do NOT become wardens, and so any specialized Warden training is not typically part of the apprenticeship education, unless your Master happens to be a Warden. However most of our exposure to the Council has been while they were loosing a War and desperate to recoup the military losses.
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Its also worth noting that the Grey Cloaks do appear to have some minor enchantments on them (blood wont stick to them) just not enchantments as Powerful or obvious as an integrated Mage Armor spell (or whatever variety).
I agree.
I wonder if they provide any protection against physical attack, like a bullet or a blade. I'll re-read the Dark Hallow fight and see if anything is mentioned.
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I suspect that swords/fencing is still a thing for the Wardens as so many things from the NeverNever react poorly to having a chunk of iron stuck in them.
Given that would the Winter Knight really want a piece of heavily enchanted steel? I'd expect Warden swords to be built to do nasty things to creatures and artifacts of Winter (among other things); carrying weapons that may do more damage to the wielder than to the other guy ain't a great idea. If Harry gets a sword I suspect it would be something quite different and less likely to leave him incapacitated by a stray cut messing with the mantle.
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Now that Harry is back and will again be dealing with the wider world (as opposed to be being dead or stuck on an island), what are the chances that he's going to get a warden's sword (assuming Luccio can once again create them)? And what does every think his standing will be with the wardens and the council in general, now that he's the winter knight?
WoJ somewhere saying something about if Harry used a sword he'd fall and stab himself on it. Think he was answering a question about the Summer Knight having a sword, and if Harry would get one.
So my personal opinion is he won't be getting one based on what Jim said.
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WoJ somewhere saying something about if Harry used a sword he'd fall and stab himself on it. Think he was answering a question about the Summer Knight having a sword, and if Harry would get one.
So my personal opinion is he won't be getting one based on what Jim said.
It's true that to use a sword effectively takes practice and training, quite a bit of it. You need a certain basic amount just to avoid making the sword more dangerous to you than your foe, and more yet to use it well.
That's true of all weapons, of course, but more so of sword and their kin than things like guns. One of the early reasons for the adoption of firearms as weapons, even aside from their power, was that you could learn to use one effectively more quickly than you could older weapons. That was part of why guns were in use even when they still weren't all that much more potent than blades and bows yet.
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It's true that to use a sword effectively takes practice and training, quite a bit of it. You need a certain basic amount just to avoid making the sword more dangerous to you than your foe, and more yet to use it well.
That's true of all weapons, of course, but more so of sword and their kin than things like guns. One of the early reasons for the adoption of firearms as weapons, even aside from their power, was that you could learn to use one effectively more quickly than you could older weapons. That was part of why guns were in use even when they still weren't all that much more potent than blades and bows yet.
Philosophically I entirely disagree with this, just because I think it take a hell of a lot of training and practice to safety use a gun in a combat situation, or anywhere outside a controlled space like a gunrange. The only difference I see versus a Sword is that a Sword take a lot more training before it becomes truly dangerous, whereas a gun can accidentally kill in anyone's hands. But being able to Kill somebody is the lowest possible bar for competency, a monkey with a stick can do that. Guns won out over swords in warfar because they were cheaper than crossbows and it was a lot easier to just hand one to untrained conscript and point him in the general direction of the enemy. But that didnt stop lots of them from accidentally loading a dozen balls into their musket and never realizing they failed to fire it (a common occurrence in the US revolution and Civil war era's).
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One of the early reasons for the adoption of firearms as weapons, even aside from their power, was that you could learn to use one effectively more quickly than you could older weapons. That was part of why guns were in use even when they still weren't all that much more potent than blades and bows yet.
By some measures, after the use of armor trailed off again, bows were better until well into the 1800's. The problem was it took decades of practice for an archer to get to peak performance, and given that most military purposes were shooting into a crowd rather than trying to pick off specific targets, it just wasn't worth the training time.
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By some measures, after the use of armor trailed off again, bows were better until well into the 1800's. The problem was it took decades of practice for an archer to get to peak performance, and given that most military purposes were shooting into a crowd rather than trying to pick off specific targets, it just wasn't worth the training time.
Which in turn is why the Crossbow was such a big advancement. Much less skill required, and far less reliant on individual arm strength. Where it still fell short vs firearms was in the ammunition logistics (ie cost and volume). A crossbowman could go through similar numbers of Bolts as an archer did Arrows, and it took literal wagon-loads to keep a longbowman firing throughout an engagement, and arrows required trained (if modest) craftsmen. By comparison, lead and powder are bulk commodities, and anyone with a campfire and a plier-like mold could make musket-balls.
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WoJ somewhere saying something about if Harry used a sword he'd fall and stab himself on it. Think he was answering a question about the Summer Knight having a sword, and if Harry would get one.
So my personal opinion is he won't be getting one based on what Jim said.
harry cant use a sword unless that sword has intellectus of how to wield it so he is better use kusunagii( which comes with spirit of blade thanks to japanese smithing) instead of warden swords by the way BAKAİ!
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Seems to me that Harry's training with the quarter staff was time better spent than time training with a sword he didn't receive.
And I thought Harry said he was a far better fencer than swordsman. That he had reach enough to hit from the next county over. Though I thought a fencer WAS a swordsman.
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Sorry, but I don't believe that Harry will ever get a Warden's sword. It seems to me that Jim is purposefully holding Harry back from wielding any sword. Considering Harry's slow but steady change of opinion in regards to God, faith, his devotion to Magic, the fuzzy undefined nature of the White God in the Dresden Files, and his respect to the Swords - not to mention Michael's subtle actions indicating that he believes Harry could be a wielder - I personally believe that Harry will one day be put in a position in which he's forced to take up the Sword of Love, and thus discard one Mantle of power for another. He's being prepared for it.
Yeah, it's currently a huge stretch for his character, but that's the fun thing about predicting things that will happen in the Big Apocalyptic Trilogy. If a halfhearted Baptist, an Atheist, and a Jew can be a Knight of the Cross, then I don't see why a wizard can't.
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Seems to me that Harry's training with the quarter staff was time better spent than time training with a sword he didn't receive.
And I thought Harry said he was a far better fencer than swordsman. That he had reach enough to hit from the next county over. Though I thought a fencer WAS a swordsman.
Cant find the correct passage off-hand, but I think he just meant that his reach makes up for his overall lack of skill, but only when applied to that one specific type of swordmanship.
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Cant find the correct passage off-hand, but I think he just meant that his reach makes up for his overall lack of skill, but only when applied to that one specific type of swordmanship.
Agreed. I wasn't suggesting that he was a good fencer, just that he thinks he knows how to keep the pointy end out of himself.
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While Harry will never full become a warden, the sword is a powerful and capable foci, with its ability to attack magic. With the inevitable large scale combat approaching, such a force multiplier would be invaluable.
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Harry's sword training
(http://38.media.tumblr.com/8b8f804476879d855d38bab97b20043b/tumblr_nibx6gjtyU1u4s1ido1_500.gif)
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Agreed. I wasn't suggesting that he was a food fencer, just that he thinks he knows how to keep the pointy end out of himself.
Oh agreed. I was just equally confused by the apparent distinction between a fencer and a swordsman.
While Harry will never full become a warden, the sword is a powerful and capable foci, with its ability to attack magic. With the inevitable large scale combat approaching, such a force multiplier would be invaluable.
Harry's quite literally More Warden than any other person on the Council; Even setting aside that he's a fully empowered Regional Commander with other wardens under his command (Pre-death, at least) he's also THE Warden, occupying the original role which all the others are just a pale imitation of. :P
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We are pretty sure the circle has mortal magic users at their disposal, so having a sword to counter them would be useful. There are going to be done council traitors, so Harry might himself may need to face warden swords.
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harry cant use a sword unless that sword has intellectus of how to wield it so he is better use kusunagii( which comes with spirit of blade thanks to japanese smithing) instead of warden swords by the way BAKAİ!
Even if he had intellectus for us, unless that extended to physical things he would still have to train his body and train his reflexes to use his knowledge. Even if Harry somehow had the knowledge of the world's greatest swordsman, his body would still have to be trained to use that knowledge effectively.
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Philosophically I entirely disagree with this, just because I think it take a hell of a lot of training and practice to safety use a gun in a combat situation, or anywhere outside a controlled space like a gunrange.
Not as much as swords, or longbows, or the like.
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Even if he had intellectus for us, unless that extended to physical things he would still have to train his body and train his reflexes to use his knowledge. Even if Harry somehow had the knowledge of the world's greatest swordsman, his body would still have to be trained to use that knowledge effectively.
winter mantle and demon reach actualy training him to become magus of cross and its not hard to fix his training with sword. via intellectus to show some beginings and monoc mercenery the advance training
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I could see the council giving him a sword just to force him carrying out the execution of a law breaker. I had this theory that somehow the sword counters a magic user death curse. It cuts magic, so using it to slay a magic user interferes with the last casting of magic.
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And I thought Harry said he was a far better fencer than swordsman. That he had reach enough to hit from the next county over. Though I thought a fencer WAS a swordsman.
Fencing is to swordsmanship more or less as boxing is to MMA - it's one discipline in the field, but as a form it limits a lot of the techniques one might use if practically trying to hurt an opponent.
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Fencing is to swordsmanship more or less as boxing is to MMA - it's one discipline in the field, but as a form it limits a lot of the techniques one might use if practically trying to hurt an opponent.
yet its board enough to get both swashbuckling and foil fencing as topic and harry has a cane sword which shows he might have bit swashbuckling training so he can handle a suitable sword and moderately good at it plus it gives him excuse to quote princess bride to enemies or how hammy the joke is pull a jack sparrow on his arse.
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Fencing is to swordsmanship more or less as boxing is to MMA - it's one discipline in the field, but as a form it limits a lot of the techniques one might use if practically trying to hurt an opponent.
||Nitpick||
From the POV of my martial arts education at least I'd classify Fencing, Boxing, and MMA as all in the same general boat as fencing, all being martial arts "Sport adaptations" that have certain style and technique limitations that are necessary to keep competitors from killing each other too easily.
Perhaps instead:
Fencing:Swordsmanship::Boxing:Hand-to-Hand Combat?
That beings said, Fencing styles do make sense for Harry (and actual, non-sport versions of that sword style have existed since at least musketeer times) as it's very linear (like his mindset) and more importantly it is more or less optimized to leverage a Reach advantage, as Harry always mentioned about his lunge. So even for real defense it's not a terrible route. Especially when the traditional Sword v. Armor issues are less prominent do to magical variations
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||Nitpick||
all being martial arts "Sport adaptations" that have certain style and technique limitations that are necessary to keep competitors from killing each other too easily.
Fair that they're all sport adaptations to one degree or another. I just meant that MMA is considerably closer to practical combat (i.e. you're allowed to keep hitting a downed opponent until the official pulls you off, compared to boxing where you're supposed to lay off and allow them to stand if they can within the count).
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Fair that they're all sport adaptations to one degree or another. I just meant that MMA is considerably closer to practical combat (i.e. you're allowed to keep hitting a downed opponent until the official pulls you off, compared to boxing where you're supposed to lay off and allow them to stand if they can within the count).
Also true. My quibble with the various MMA's out there is that they all still (for very good reason) have to ban certain moves, strikes, etc. and by doing so it degrades the real-world application, as you are now training under the assumption that the most damaging moves will not be used, like a strike to the throat or a knee to the head, etc. Less extreme than the stereotype way to floor a boxer (IE a swift kick to the balls) but a similar danger.
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I could see the council giving him a sword just to force him carrying out the execution of a law breaker.
Oh, I fully expect that to happen at some point. I don't know if it'll be done using a Council sword, but I fully expect Harry to find himself in a position where he has to execute a Lawbreaker, probably a kid not entirely unlike he himself at one time, with no way out.
I had this theory that somehow the sword counters a magic user death curse. It cuts magic, so using it to slay a magic user interferes with the last casting of magic.
Maybe, but I suspect that has more to do with the blindfold, so the target doesn't realize he's about to buy it.
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Oh, I fully expect that to happen at some point. I don't know if it'll be done using a Council sword, but I fully expect Harry to find himself in a position where he has to execute a Lawbreaker, probably a kid not entirely unlike he himself at one time, with no way out.
*coughcough* hannahascher *coughhack*
Regarding Harry using an existing Warden sword, WOj is that they are customized to the mentality of the user, so to use somebody else you'd need to get warped so much you essentially become them; possible, but extreme and unlikely.
As far as the Swords anti-magic being part of the reason they are used for executions, I highly doubt it. Their morality Laws and Codes are pretty specific on killing by magic vs mundane means. There's even a long WOJ about it, and about how even with Kemmler they made sure to stay in their comfortable side of the line.
Here's the key part about Kemmler, but the rest is well worth it as it elaborates some on the Council mentality on killing, and Grey Magic in general.
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1879.msg37967.html#msg37967 (http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,1879.msg37967.html#msg37967)
Technically, they didn't actually kill him with magic. They rendered him helpless with magic and then found other ways to execute him. (Swords are the usual. For Kemmler, they also used guns, axes, shovels, ropes, a flamethrower, and a number of other extremes.) It's a semantic difference, in some ways, but an important technical distinction in others.
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*coughcough* hannahascher *coughhack*
she is gonne for good lasciel cant find a host in supernatural fort nox so executing her will happen when mab performs a lap dance to ferrovax on new years eve
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she is gonne for good lasciel cant find a host in supernatural fort nox so executing her will happen when mab performs a lap dance to ferrovax on new years eve
Oh, you think she survived? I meant that the execution had already happened at Warden Hands ("there but for the grace of God goes Harry Dresden" -Harry Dresden, Skin Game), and Michael promised they'd talk about it eventually.
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If Harry daughter is such a threat to him, she would be an equal threat to the fallen, so if Harry takes down lashiel permanently, it will be via Bonnie.
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If Harry daughter is such a threat to him, she would be an equal threat to the fallen, so if Harry takes down lashiel permanently, it will be via Bonnie.
Consider, If Lasciel is bound/stuck in such a way her influence isn't felt anymore, perhaps that influence is going to be concentrated on the one thing she still has a connection to....
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Personally, I'm not yet convinced Anduriel was unable to rescue the coins dropped by Lasciel and Ursiel.
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*coughcough* hannahascher *coughhack*
Nope. That wasn't an execution, that was a combat situation, and he tried his best to talk her down and when that didn't work, he very specifically used her own magic against her to take her out. Right on the razor's edge of the First Law, but he is a Warden, after all.
I strongly suspect that at some point Harry will find himself in a situation where he basically has to execute a helpless warlock, using a gun or a blade, in his capacity as a Warden. Not combat, just cold-blooded killing of a human being who is powerless to fight back or run or otherwise do anything about it.
Take out the gun, point it at the helpless, immobilized warlock's hooded head, and pull that trigger. I suspect Harry would prefer to do it with a gun, if he has to do it.
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Nope. That wasn't an execution, that was a combat situation, and he tried his best to talk her down and when that didn't work, he very specifically used her own magic against her to take her out. Right on the razor's edge of the First Law, but he is a Warden, after all.
I strongly suspect that at some point Harry will find himself in a situation where he basically has to execute a helpless warlock, using a gun or a blade, in his capacity as a Warden. Not combat, just cold-blooded killing of a human being who is powerless to fight back or run or otherwise do anything about it.
Like he did with Corpsetaker you mean? No trial, no fight, just shot in the back of the head?
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Like he did with Corpsetaker you mean? No trial, no fight, just shot in the back of the head?
Nope. That was still a combat situation.
Think execution. The warlock is tied hands behind him/her (knowing Harry's luck, more likely her, and probably a young kid to boot), blindfolded/hooded, 100% helpless. It's not a fight, it's Harry having to kill a helpless human being in cold blood, the way they beheaded the Korean kid, or Morgan would have had to behead Molly if things had gone the other way. Though I suspect Harry might prefer to use a gun, if has to do it at all.
The person to be killed is not an immediate threat (though he might be if he gets loose), just a physically and magically helpless human who Harry Dresden has to terminate.
Wardens do that, it's part of the job description, and I strongly suspect Harry will find himself in a situation at some point where he can't get out of it.
The closest thing Harry has done to this, so far, would be killing Lloyd Slate. That would approximate it. But even that was not quite the same.
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Nope. That was still a combat situation.
Think execution. The warlock is tied hands behind him/her (knowing Harry's luck, more likely her, and probably a young kid to boot), blindfolded/hooded, 100% helpless. It's not a fight, it's Harry having to kill a helpless human being in cold blood, the way they beheaded the Korean kid, or Morgan would have had to behead Molly if things had gone the other way. Though I suspect Harry might prefer to use a gun, if has to do it at all.
The person to be killed is not an immediate threat (though he might be if he gets loose), just a physically and magically helpless human who Harry Dresden has to terminate.
Wardens do that, it's part of the job description, and I strongly suspect Harry will find himself in a situation at some point where he can't get out of it.
The closest thing Harry has done to this, so far, would be killing Lloyd Slate. That would approximate it. But even that was not quite the same.
I hadn't been wrong--but I'd never... never just killed anyone before. I've killed things in the heat of battle, yes. I've killed people by less direct means. But Corpsetaker's death had been intimate and coldly calculated and not at all indirect....
I'd killed. Deliberately, rationally ended another's life....
I had executed her on suspicion.
No trial. No soulgaze. No judgment from a dispassionate arbiter. Hell, I hadn't even taken the chance to get in a good insult. Bang. Thump. One live wizard, one dead bad guy.
Harry certainly thought of it that way.
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Harry certainly thought of it that way.
Yes, but LordDresden is right, it still was a combat situation. A real execution is something else. Though I do think Lloyd Slate qualifies, even if it was a mercy killing too.
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Yes, but LordDresden is right, it still was a combat situation. A real execution is something else. Though I do think Lloyd Slate qualifies, even if it was a mercy killing too.
It might be helpful to others, but it's a distinction that Harry clearly does not buy.
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Yes, but LordDresden is right, it still was a combat situation. A real execution is something else. Though I do think Lloyd Slate qualifies, even if it was a mercy killing too.
It might be helpful to others, but it's a distinction that Harry clearly does not buy.
I'll bet it's a distinction he'd perceive pretty quickly if he found himself tasked with killing a helpless 12-16 year old kid who happened to be a warlock. Especially if he or she had ended that way after starting out with good intentions, or bad circumstances in ignorance.
I doubt if all the warlocks go out cursing and snarling and threatening like the Korean kid, either. That might make it a tad easier by emphasizing how far gone the warlock was. Given Harry's luck, he'd more likely get tears and terrified pleading. Harry can still remember how terrified he was when he was brought to Edinburgh for trial, even now.
At least Lloyd Slate more-or-less went into things with his eyes open, or should have. Presumably Aurora didn't force him. Susan had turned into a Red Vampire and what little part of her remained human consented. Corpsetaker and Hannah were combat situations.
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Oh, you think she survived? I meant that the execution had already happened at Warden Hands ("there but for the grace of God goes Harry Dresden" -Harry Dresden, Skin Game), and Michael promised they'd talk about it eventually.
i dont think she survied but the chance she finds a new host is so slim that there is literally higher chance that mab doing lap dance to ferrovax in new years eve than her and laschiel getting out of vault of hades alive
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i dont think she survied but the chance she finds a new host is so slim that there is literally higher chance that mab doing lap dance to ferrovax in new years eve than her and laschiel getting out of vault of hades alive
Im talking purely about Hannah the warlock, not the fallen.
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Im talking purely about Hannah the warlock, not the fallen.
last time i remember they are sold as single package but there is a chance she can return as one of the gods envoy.
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last time i remember they are sold as single package but there is a chance she can return as one of the gods envoy.
huh?
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I always figured that nicodemus was capable of summoning unprotected/un hosted coins when needed. His angelic/hellfire as a key component to the spell.
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I always figured that nicodemus was capable of summoning unprotected/un hosted coins when needed. His angelic/hellfire as a key component to the spell.
I dont see why he'd have any more or less advantage with that compared to any other Coinholder. Is there anything specific about Nic (or anduriel's skillset) that would give him that sort of supremacy? As far as I know the only ones that can break all the rules to summon a coin that way is somebody with a Shadow already (such as Harry) but not even a former wielder
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Those summoning spells would only be useful if you have the sigils and names of all the coins, and those spells would be angelic lore. So only the fallen would be aware of them. So nic would not be the only one capable, any of his order. I assumed him due to him being large and Incharge.
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I doubt it very much that Nic is able to simply summon all the Coins. If that was the case, he could have gotten the Coins Harry was holding in SmF on the island.
Even if he could, somehow, Hades certainly could have prevented that in his own demesne.
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I doubt it very much that Nic is able to simply summon all the Coins. If that was the case, he could have gotten the Coins Harry was holding in SmF on the island.
Even if he could, somehow, Hades certainly could have prevented that in his own demesne.
That's a good point, bargaining for the coins was a bog part of that. Though in that case he was also after swords. There was speculation during SmF that he was out of coins (and Cassius not getting a replacement after DM supports that somewhat), which was affecting his strategy.
Another point against all fallen having the capability to summon all the coins: They Haven't. The Church still flly believes it can and has contained Coins. Nic is controlled and far-thinking enough to keep up that kind of charade, but relatively few of the others we've seen are, and to some extent that includes the other Shot-caller Tessa.
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I bet the counter measures to block the summoning are simple, nic would usually summon the coins when they are in the open with out a host. It is likely a ritual that takes time and effort. The swords likely negate such an effort.
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I bet the counter measures to block the summoning are simple, nic would usually summon the coins when they are in the open with out a host. It is likely a ritual that takes time and effort. The swords likely negate such an effort.
So he has this mysterious super power, but we've never seen him use it and there's no historic indication and him having it would have changed his actions on several instances. But he has it, because...?
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It could be part of the reason the order found it so easy to regain the coins.
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It could be part of the reason the order found it so easy to regain the coins.
But Anduriel's information gathering capabilities can fully explain that, without the need for additional undescribed powers, no?
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But Anduriel's information gathering capabilities can fully explain that, without the need for additional undescribed powers, no?
Or a direct access to a corrupted Clergy?
One the other hand, we've talked about what Angels can do when their meant to. The Fallen are meant to influence and offer power. As we've seen in the coins funky behavior, maybe they are 'allowed' to makes sure their influence is felt?
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Or a direct access to a corrupted Clergy?
One the other hand, we've talked about what Angels can do when their meant to. The Fallen are meant to influence and offer power. As we've seen in the coins funky behavior, maybe they are 'allowed' to makes sure their influence is felt?
If I get what your are proposing correctly, ya Id be ok with that. Given how TWG operated via cooincidence and whatnot, I'd feel easier with the explanation that The Universe arranges them to get out to keep the Balance by keeping them in "circulation". To my mind that fits better than Nic, and especially /all/ Denarians, having an underutilized ability to whistle them up whenever they want.
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Given that it's in the coins nature to be in circulation. I would not doubt that it could be a combination of all these things. Nick, or Tessa, or another may have the ability to summon a coin. Then again, with Nick's shadow ability, it could be that when he finds out where coins are being held, he simply contacts his guy in the area and secures them that way.
There are all kinds of possible ways.
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Given that it's in the coins nature to be in circulation. I would not doubt that it could be a combination of all these things. Nick, or Tessa, or another may have the ability to summon a coin. Then again, with Nick's shadow ability, it could be that when he finds out where coins are being held, he simply contacts his guy in the area and secures them that way.
There are all kinds of possible ways.
Theoretically, if said influence extends to the whole planet, can not the fallen in the coins communicate? I mean, Lasciel talked to Harry. It shouldn't be against the rules to communicate to each other? Idk that's always been goofy to me, Lasc leaving off being stuk in the coin to go whisper sweet deadly suggestions at Harry. It was only the whispering that was illegal, not the watching? How stuck are they really?
Or how much like Andurial is Lash's abilities ??? ?
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I took it to mean that it was the whispering, not her visit as a shadow, that was the illegal part.
Which means that in Changes she already had a host. One that allowed her (Lashiel) to no longer be trapped in the coin (like carbonite according to WoJ).
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Well Mythologically Lasciel as a Fallen Angel presence should never have been allowed in a church let a lone a Cathedral.
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I think she sort of got an invitation from Harry when he considered his options. One of them was taking up a coin.
There was still a part of her Shadow inside Harry's head. That bit that grew into Bonnie.
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Well Mythologically Lasciel as a Fallen Angel presence should never have been allowed in a church let a lone a Cathedral.
It's said in the books that the Fallen don't like visiting churches because it makes them remember, or something along those lines. It seems in the series that there's no such restriction.
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I think in rpg terms vissiting church compels several aspects of fallen like pity, anger and other emotion depending of fallen which lash is redemption thanks to harry admantly keep her in tight leash.
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But on the flip side a church doesnt offer significantly more defense than an equivalent unwarded Threashold, which is to say reasonably powerful anything can push through it.
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When you consider that a Church is a "House of God" it makes sense that it wouldn't need much in the form of defense against someone OF God, as in a Denarian.
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When you consider that a Church is a "House of God" it makes sense that it wouldn't need much in the form of defense against someone OF God, as in a Denarian.
If a Denarian can literally flick an Archangel in the face, I dont think they have much in the way of Enforced Decorum regarding TWG
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If a Denarian can literally flick an Archangel in the face, I dont think they have much in the way of Enforced Decorum regarding TWG
He posed no threat to him though. It was a calculated insult. On the other hand, glorified threshold, heh. Put your finger on it both of you did. Its God's House. That's equal to stepping into his inner sanctum, his power here on earth. Think about what that threshold is MADE of regardless of it being HIS home.
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If a Denarian can literally flick an Archangel in the face, I dont think they have much in the way of Enforced Decorum regarding TWG
To be fair, that was Nick, not Anduriel. Yes, Anduriel was there, but it wasn't Archangel vs Fallen.
As ot Enforced decorum, I'm still unconvinced that the fallen, and even Lucy, aren't all part of TWG's plan.
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He posed no threat to him though. It was a calculated insult. On the other hand, glorified threshold, heh. Put your finger on it both of you did. Its God's House. That's equal to stepping into his inner sanctum, his power here on earth. Think about what that threshold is MADE of regardless of it being HIS home.
Not all that much, considering that in two different books we've had things break through it (GP and PG, ironically).
Assuming it works on the same principles as an actual Threshold, it would presumably vary based on the family-style Belief of those that actually Live there (ie the line-in clergy). So not only would they need to be honestly devout, they'd need to personally view the building as a Home (of themselves and of God) rather than a Public place or a business of any sort. Not dissimilar to how Mort had to make very specific boundaries between his Home and his Home Office.
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Not all that much, considering that in two different books we've had things break through it (GP and PG, ironically).
Assuming it works on the same principles as an actual Threshold, it would presumably vary based on the family-style Belief of those that actually Live there (ie the line-in clergy). So not only would they need to be honestly devout, they'd need to personally view the building as a Home (of themselves and of God) rather than a Public place or a business of any sort. Not dissimilar to how Mort had to make very specific boundaries between his Home and his Home Office.
No, it's not based on 'who lives there' in that sense. It's about who lives there in the technical sense of qualifying as a church. Now those qualifications... beyond my kin, I can see at least 3 different variations with more coming down the pipe, none of which solves for X. Churches despite possessing money aren't considered financial business's btw. That's why they get the tax breaks similar to non profit orgs. So you can have clergy living there or not, huge organizational monetary stability and still be considered a 'church'. I'd argue any valid church, molosk, ect. qualifies as long as it's to a monotheistic deity.
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No, it's not based on 'who lives there' in that sense. It's about who lives there in the technical sense of qualifying as a church. Now those qualifications... beyond my kin, I can see at least 3 different variations with more coming down the pipe, none of which solves for X. Churches despite possessing money aren't considered financial business's btw. That's why they get the tax breaks similar to non profit orgs. So you can have clergy living there or not, huge organizational monetary stability and still be considered a 'church'. I'd argue any valid church, molosk, ect. qualifies as long as it's to a monotheistic deity.
Hmm I think true belief would have to play into it as well. Particularly belief in your value's. Churches that are more about the tax break or establishing a cult (a fine line I know) may not get as much power as churches attended by and to faithful believers.
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No, it's not based on 'who lives there' in that sense. It's about who lives there in the technical sense of qualifying as a church. Now those qualifications... beyond my kin, I can see at least 3 different variations with more coming down the pipe, none of which solves for X.
I dont think it does, in the same way that a family member cannot contribute to a Threashold without actually Living behind it. The "Family to Church" analogy is that no matter how Paramount Family is to a person, that one person cannot build a strong threshold alone, even if they are part of a massive dynasty.
Im not saying that being declared a House of God doesnt impart some sort of protection (though to the best of my knowledge there's zero evidence), but if it operates the way you describe I think it's not a Threshold anymore, but rather some other Sanctification effect.
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I dont think it does, in the same way that a family member cannot contribute to a Threashold without actually Living behind it. The "Family to Church" analogy is that no matter how Paramount Family is to a person, that one person cannot build a strong threshold alone, even if they are part of a massive dynasty.
Im not saying that being declared a House of God doesnt impart some sort of protection (though to the best of my knowledge there's zero evidence), but if it operates the way you describe I think it's not a Threshold anymore, but rather some other Sanctification effect.
House of god is a bit more an ephemeral idea than 4 walls though. I see it as a collection of all the faith of all the believers everywhere. People who go worship as 'sons of god', who 'live with god' everyday no matter where they are, ect. They are all connecting this as the earthly representation of where they go to dwell with god or where he himself is always to be found.
You know, when you start to look at what makes a threshold stronger, it comes down to those things TWG champions, especially love. That's one reason I've never found it a big stretch Mouse could use either. Either contains a threshold, The temple was just an augmented by angelic power dwelling there one. That's the only quantifiable difference. In which case it's as you say, and the fact TWG or any other associates live there effects the very nature of what's absorbed from them to the threshold, amount of transfer, ect.
*and anyone who wants to claim this isn't about DF religious activities, for shame to you :@
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House of god is a bit more an ephemeral idea than 4 walls though. I see it as a collection of all the faith of all the believers everywhere. People who go worship as 'sons of god', who 'live with god' everyday no matter where they are, ect. They are all connecting this as the earthly representation of where they go to dwell with god or where he himself is always to be found.
You know, when you start to look at what makes a threshold stronger, it comes down to those things TWG champions, especially love. That's one reason I've never found it a big stretch Mouse could use either. Either contains a threshold, The temple was just an augmented by angelic power dwelling there one. That's the only quantifiable difference. In which case it's as you say, and the fact TWG or any other associates live there effects the very nature of what's absorbed from them to the threshold, amount of transfer, ect.
*and anyone who wants to claim this isn't about DF religious activities, for shame to you :@
I dunno, I still see the Family threashold requirement for actual extended Presence being qualitatively different than a Church being protected by association to a religion. Not saying it's not present, but it feels like a separate mechanism. It feels more closely related Sanctification (my choice of term today, not actually mentioned anywhere); to how a Priest can make Holy Water, or declare a space to be Holy Ground (which I assume is significant to ghosts at least).
Separately though, I dont actually recall any indication that a Church has /any/ particular warding/defensive Power beyond that provided by Holy Water or a cross or other religious/Faith objects. Can you point me to an example?
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Not sure precisely what your looking for there, any non religious/faith based effects?
...Ok, well. The Nightmare? He couldn't enter into the church but Harry the ghost(was Stuart with him? I don't recall) Unless you'd wanna say the nightmare couldn't enter because he believed it himself that's a clear case of it enacting purely threshold mechanics. He had no invite, he could enter because he had no ill will towards it's inhabitants. Same as Fairy house cleaners vs ugly toad demons.
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...Ok, well. The Nightmare? He couldn't enter into the church but Harry the ghost(was Stuart with him? I don't recall) Unless you'd wanna say the nightmare couldn't enter because he believed it himself that's a clear case of it enacting purely threshold mechanics. He had no invite, he could enter because he had no ill will towards it's inhabitants. Same as Fairy house cleaners vs ugly toad demons.
That "ghost" Harry could enter the church was one of the clues that tipped him off to the fact that he was more than just a ghost. ;)
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Not sure precisely what your looking for there, any non religious/faith based effects?
...Ok, well. The Nightmare? He couldn't enter into the church but Harry the ghost(was Stuart with him? I don't recall) Unless you'd wanna say the nightmare couldn't enter because he believed it himself that's a clear case of it enacting purely threshold mechanics. He had no invite, he could enter because he had no ill will towards it's inhabitants. Same as Fairy house cleaners vs ugly toad demons.
I guess my stance boils down to the idea that there is a defensive effect from being on Consecrated Ground, which is distinct from a Threshold. St. Mary's has Both, because it is a Church with actual residents; they overlap but are distinct in area and function. The Nightmare was able to physically manifest and damage stuff on the Holy Ground (which surprised Harry) but could not pass the actual door/walls of the threshold. But if St Mary's had nobody actually, currently living there it would not have had that second defensive line.
The rest of what you mention has more to do with the quantitative differences in the examples, as NO defense is absolute, a powerful enough being can always hammer through anything be it Threshold, Ward, or whathaveyou
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That "ghost" Harry could enter the church was one of the clues that tipped him off to the fact that he was more than just a ghost. ;)
Considering how the Nightmares Balliwick worked out compared to the usual ghost. His own admission he wasn't quite sure what he was and the fact he used a foreign BCV spellwork to do it all. I'm quite convinced he was more than just a ghost at the time. Considering the BC keeps trying to bring in a fearbringer/eater I find it unlikely indeed he was ever your average haunting.
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Not sure precisely what your looking for there, any non religious/faith based effects?
...Ok, well. The Nightmare? He couldn't enter into the church but Harry the ghost(was Stuart with him? I don't recall) Unless you'd wanna say the nightmare couldn't enter because he believed it himself that's a clear case of it enacting purely threshold mechanics. He had no invite, he could enter because he had no ill will towards it's inhabitants. Same as Fairy house cleaners vs ugly toad demons.
Could also have to do with intent. Like a threshold to fae, if they don't intend harm they can cross the threshold. So maybe the nightmare couldn't cross into the church because it intended harm. Ghost Harry could because he did not intend harm.
Also, he had an Archangel with him.
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Could also have to do with intent. Like a threshold to fae, if they don't intend harm they can cross the threshold. So maybe the nightmare couldn't cross into the church because it intended harm. Ghost Harry could because he did not intend harm.
Also, he had an Archangel with him.
That's my point though, it was strictly speaking a pure threshold effect applied to a church. An yea, Q pointed out people live in that church, but I point out, it being a church has no deteriorating effect on said threshold. If anything it takes concrete and adds rebar :)
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That's my point though, it was strictly speaking a pure threshold effect applied to a church. An yea, Q pointed out people live in that church, but I point out, it being a church has no deteriorating effect on said threshold. If anything it takes concrete and adds rebar :)
I think that is a better description of a Ward on top of a threshold, as one gets built directly on the other. The Holy Ground thing feels more like a Moat to me; a separate layer of defense at a different/outer location. Holy Ground extends to the property line (and/or the Fence in the case of a Cemetery), but the Threshold and any ward built on it ends at the Building. Which is good as Ghosts would need to be able to get to the church graveyard but not be able to bother the parishioners.
That being said, per WOJ Wards can be anchored to things besides home thresholds ("Well, you can use other kinds of similar energy structures, like ley lines, ogham stones, etc, but you can't just slap them down anywhere.") and Ogham Stones are a sort of Menhir standing stone that I could easily see being described as a druidy equivalent of Consecrated Ground. So maybe the Holy Ground aspect of a Church is just a different energy structure that can hold a Ward, similar to but distinct from the family-based Threshold?
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I think that is a better description of a Ward on top of a threshold, as one gets built directly on the other. The Holy Ground thing feels more like a Moat to me; a separate layer of defense at a different/outer location. Holy Ground extends to the property line (and/or the Fence in the case of a Cemetery), but the Threshold and any ward built on it ends at the Building. Which is good as Ghosts would need to be able to get to the church graveyard but not be able to bother the parishioners.
That being said, per WOJ Wards can be anchored to things besides home thresholds ("Well, you can use other kinds of similar energy structures, like ley lines, ogham stones, etc, but you can't just slap them down anywhere.") and Ogham Stones are a sort of Menhir standing stone that I could easily see being described as a druidy equivalent of Consecrated Ground. So maybe the Holy Ground aspect of a Church is just a different energy structure that can hold a Ward, similar to but distinct from the family-based Threshold?
I tend to believe that it's more related to a Threshold than a ward, though it could be kind of both. When you figure that some Churches serve as burial places for the faithful, and if there is a wandering spirit from these crypts, then the threshold/Ward would have to behave differently.
The fact that the shadow of a fallen, and a LITERAL shadow of a fallen (Lash vs Lasciel) have both been inside St. Mary's suggests that the threshold/Ward effect doesn't apply to them, where as it did to the Nightmare (Kavros).
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While the winter knight is meant to be the weapon, I can't believe mab has not commissioned some kind of weapon or fic to give her knight a little more oomph. A winter knight weapon is sure to be cool.
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While the winter knight is meant to be the weapon, I can't believe mab has not commissioned some kind of weapon or fic to give her knight a little more oomph. A winter knight weapon is sure to be cool.
Actually I can see the exact opposite. I can see her telling Harry he can't use a weapon that he already has. I mean she already did it once.
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Actually I can see the exact opposite. I can see her telling Harry he can't use a weapon that he already has. I mean she already did it once.
explain please besides magic and fiery temper what weapon harry gets from mab.
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Harry can create stuff from ice, so I am thinking a foci, to make the shaping process easier and more useful. So on demand he can create a bladed weapon, staff or even a tools of different type.
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Harry can create stuff from ice, so I am thinking a foci, to make the shaping process easier and more useful. So on demand he can create a bladed weapon, staff or even a tools of different type.
so some kind of bracer maybe focusing his kinetic and shield spells and help him to shape ice to offensive objects
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Actually I can see the exact opposite. I can see her telling Harry he can't use a weapon that he already has. I mean she already did it once.
explain please besides magic and fiery temper what weapon harry gets from mab.
Remember when Mab took away Harry's Blasting Rod?
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While the winter knight is meant to be the weapon, I can't believe mab has not commissioned some kind of weapon or fic to give her knight a little more oomph. A winter knight weapon is sure to be cool.
Per WOJ that's more the Summer methodology. Summer like to Arm its Knight with weapons, Winter actually Forges it's Knight into a Weapon.
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Per WOJ that's more the Summer methodology. Summer like to Arm its Knight with weapons, Winter actually Forges it's Knight into a Weapon.
Thus Harry's Physical Therapy? lol
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If Harry's already described as a weapon, technically she's only reforging this one?
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If Harry's already described as a weapon, technically she's only reforging this one?
Depends on when you think she got started (and if you give her credit for Lea's ground-work).
Anyone think Harry's going to turn the tables on Mab at least once? Make /her/ the weapon in the relationship?
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Depends on when you think she got started (and if you give her credit for Lea's ground-work).
Anyone think Harry's going to turn the tables on Mab at least once? Make /her/ the weapon in the relationship?
You mean like on DR at the end of Cold Days?
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You mean like on DR at the end of Cold Days?
No, I mean make her a catspaw, or better yet openly /force/ her to do his bidding. In CD he threatened her enough to make her back off but that's it, and he gave that up for the bluff it was in the opening of SG.
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No, I mean make her a catspaw, or better yet openly /force/ her to do his bidding. In CD he threatened her enough to make her back off but that's it, and he gave that up for the bluff it was in the opening of SG.
No, that'd hurt her ego. THAT is the mistake Kringle warns about lol.
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No, that'd hurt her ego. THAT is the mistake Kringle warns about lol.
I know. She'd hate it. That doesnt mean that, given the right circumstances she wouldnt still go along with it. Also doenst mean she has to survive it; Im picturing it as a BAT, 3rd Act sort of thing, something Endgame.
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We are talking harry getting leash on mab. Harry probably let him self and molly from their mantles but in my honest opinion i prefer to force mab to perform striptease with pole dance to Bob then getting rid of my mantle( which gonna be mind raped to obidience as side plot)
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We are talking harry getting leash on mab. Harry probably let him self and molly from their mantles but in my honest opinion i prefer to force mab to perform striptease with pole dance to Bob then getting rid of my mantle( which gonna be mind raped to obidience as side plot)
Part of where this is coming from is that I see harry as steadily moving up the ladder in the Court, or at least in how he interacts with them. Once upon a time Lea made him quake in his boots and avoid the NN at all costs. Now he orders her around, they have a much more even/level (gadara style) relationship. Ditto his relationship with the Winter Lady and arguably Erlking, albeit with their own circumstances. Before it's over I think things will have moved beyond Mab, and when Harry starts acting like the Mother's Knight, I could see Mab getting backed into that kind of corner.
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Part of where this is coming from is that I see harry as steadily moving up the ladder in the Court, or at least in how he interacts with them. Once upon a time Lea made him quake in his boots and avoid the NN at all costs. Now he orders her around, they have a much more even/level (gadara style) relationship. Ditto his relationship with the Winter Lady and arguably Erlking, albeit with their own circumstances. Before it's over I think things will have moved beyond Mab, and when Harry starts acting like the Mother's Knight, I could see Mab getting backed into that kind of corner.
You know, Q, I don't think so.
I think Harry is as high as he's going to get, in the Fairy courts. I think with these last 5-7 books he'll beat up more of the courts, but that's because of his current mandates, but I think he'll always be Mab's knight.
Jim has said he didn't ever want Harry to become a big fish in a big pond. Harry is always supposed to be a small fish.
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You know, Q, I don't think so.
I think Harry is as high as he's going to get, in the Fairy courts. I think with these last 5-7 books he'll beat up more of the courts, but that's because of his current mandates, but I think he'll always be Mab's knight.
Jim has said he didn't ever want Harry to become a big fish in a big pond. Harry is always supposed to be a small fish.
Oh, he'll still be a tiny fish when compared to the likes of the Mothers and Walkers and Dragons and whatnot. I just see him moving up to a bigger pond at least one more time, as we approach/enter the BAT. I also still think it's conspicuous that we dont really know what the Mother's Do, or what they use a Knight for (since all Queens are supposed to have distinct uses for the Knight).
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Oh, he'll still be a tiny fish when compared to the likes of the Mothers and Walkers and Dragons and whatnot. I just see him moving up to a bigger pond at least one more time, as we approach/enter the BAT. I also still think it's conspicuous that we dont really know what the Mother's Do, or what they use a Knight for (since all Queens are supposed to have distinct uses for the Knight).
you know for mortal wizard being peer with f ing fae queens is epic enough and lets not forget he personaly knows archive and couple of accords owners( marcone and f*cking odin) and cousin of lara raith so harry has some good amount of infuluence in super natural cominity and besides marcone and odin who have standing army like him in accords
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I know. She'd hate it. That doesnt mean that, given the right circumstances she wouldnt still go along with it. Also doenst mean she has to survive it; Im picturing it as a BAT, 3rd Act sort of thing, something Endgame.
The only way she'd go along with it is if A) It was part of her plan to turn the tables on him again later or B) Something bigger then Her was leaning over Harry's Shoulder forcing her to.
Mab's Ego is probably bigger then her Army.
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The only way she'd go along with it is if A) It was part of her plan to turn the tables on him again later or B) Something bigger then Her was leaning over Harry's Shoulder forcing her to.
Mab's Ego is probably bigger then her Army.
I expect B. Or barring that I expect A, but her not actually surviving to enact whatever vengeance she had in mind.
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when Harry starts acting like the Mother's Knight, I could see Mab getting backed into that kind of corner.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he ALREADY Mother Winter's Knight? The Knight serves the Queens, plural, with the specific caveat in Harry's case that he can tell them to buzz off. So far we've seen him do wet work for Mab, but Mother Winter gave her tacit seal of approval after that Halloween fiasco. At this point, I'm kind of afraid and excited to see his first mission for Mama Winter, because of how much more nasty she is than Mab.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't he ALREADY Mother Winter's Knight? The Knight serves the Queens, plural, with the specific caveat in Harry's case that he can tell them to buzz off. So far we've seen him do wet work for Mab, but Mother Winter gave her tacit seal of approval after that Halloween fiasco. At this point, I'm kind of afraid and excited to see his first mission for Mama Winter, because of how much more nasty she is than Mab.
Exactly. I desperately want to see what happens when Old Iron Teeth takes the reins. Now that she's tested him herself and decided he might be worth the trouble, I have to expect to to make some use of him.
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I think that will be EPIC
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I think it will be horrifying. Because Harry made the "only if I'm okay with it" deal with Mab. What if Baba Yaga decides that because she didn't make the deal that it doesn't apply to her...
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I think that will be EPIC
I think it will be horrifying. Because Harry made the "only if I'm okay with it" deal with Mab. What if Baba Yaga decides that because she didn't make the deal that it doesn't apply to her...
The two are not mutually exclusive :D
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I was thinking the same thing... I can totally see Jim using that.
It would be even worse if Molly is the one who says Harry has to hurt, say, Butters.
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Because Harry made the "only if I'm okay with it" deal with Mab. What if Baba Yaga decides that because she didn't make the deal that it doesn't apply to her...
Missed this bit.
The Deal is the Deal, I dont think she can claim one piece (that Harry has the Duties of the Winter Knight) without upholding the rest of Winter's side. So if she finds a way around that particular clause she has invalidated her only Hook on Harry. That sort of obligation is too innate in the Fae Mantles, methinks.
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The only way she'd go along with it is if A) It was part of her plan to turn the tables on him again later or B) Something bigger then Her was leaning over Harry's Shoulder forcing her to.
Mab's Ego is probably bigger then her Army.
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Or C) she's tired of the fight and wants and ending. Queens don't last forever; if Mab wanted out I could see her setting Harry up to kill her/remove the mantle and he'd never know till afterward it wasn't his brilliant plan.
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Missed this bit.
The Deal is the Deal, I dont think she can claim one piece (that Harry has the Duties of the Winter Knight) without upholding the rest of Winter's side. So if she finds a way around that particular clause she has invalidated her only Hook on Harry. That sort of obligation is too innate in the Fae Mantles, methinks.
I could see Mother winter saying it to Harry, true or not. I mean, she could try to convince Harry that the deal is different since she accepted him in her cottage. It may not be completely true, but she doesn't have to tell him that.
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Or, ya know, he just does whatever it is because we are talking about MOTHER WINTER, a literal force if nature and an elderly woman to boot. Harry respect women. Harry respects his elders. Harry lips off to gods, but still plays nice if they're not trying to kill him. I can see her telling him to commit this unspeakable atrocity like she's telling the neighbor boy to mow her lawn, and Harry trying desperately to find a way to do it without sacrificing a litter of puppies. Scary, yet hilarious.
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LOL ... Of course.