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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Tami Seven on June 23, 2017, 05:13:30 AM

Title: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Tami Seven on June 23, 2017, 05:13:30 AM
If there was a way to do it you'd think that the White Council would use it often to disarm dangerous magic users.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 23, 2017, 05:49:42 AM
If there was a way to do it you'd think that the White Council would use it often to disarm dangerous magic users.

Stealing it would probably corrupt the person doing it.  Other than that I don't think so.  Jim mentioned that you can but it's horrible.   
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: ClintACK on June 23, 2017, 06:01:28 AM
Yes.  A wizard's powers can be stolen.

Evidence: In Grave Peril, the Nightmare eats a part of Harry's spirit.  After that, the Nightmare is able to take corporeal form and cast spells -- and Harry's own magic is noticeably weaker.

Permanently?  Less clear.  But Harry was worried that he might never regain his power if he didn't take it back from Kravos by force, which he does.  However, what we learn later about the way a person's soul regenerates over time and with certain life-affirming experiences... it probably wouldn't have been a permanent loss.

Would the White Council do this?

No.  Not a chance.  It feels like dark magic.  It probably corrupts the one who steals the power -- especially if they're taking the power from someone corrupted or dark.  Anyone who is dangerous enough that they'd consider this technique... should just be beheaded.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Tami Seven on June 23, 2017, 10:29:11 AM
Just thought that rendering a person powerless is far more humane than killing them.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: RobReece on June 23, 2017, 02:49:52 PM
Yes.  A wizard's powers can be stolen.

Evidence: In Grave Peril, the Nightmare eats a part of Harry's spirit.  After that, the Nightmare is able to take corporeal form and cast spells -- and Harry's own magic is noticeably weaker.

Permanently?  Less clear.  But Harry was worried that he might never regain his power if he didn't take it back from Kravos by force, which he does.  However, what we learn later about the way a person's soul regenerates over time and with certain life-affirming experiences... it probably wouldn't have been a permanent loss.

Would the White Council do this?

No.  Not a chance. It feels like dark magic.  It probably corrupts the one who steals the power -- especially if they're taking the power from someone corrupted or dark.  Anyone who is dangerous enough that they'd consider this technique... should just be beheaded.

What if the person doing it was in possession of the Blackstaff?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: phi1601 on June 23, 2017, 05:34:53 PM
Why isn't there a Law against it?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 23, 2017, 05:55:09 PM
Why isn't there a Law against it?
It probably counts under unwilling transformation, possibly under the mind powers.

Either way, you're basically ripping a piece out of the guy's soul. That's going to be traumatic to both parties. It might well be more humane to kill them after all.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Griffyn612 on June 23, 2017, 06:24:29 PM
What if the person doing it was in possession of the Blackstaff?
That'd require the Council at large to admit to the existence of the Blackstaff.  It's a secret.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Rasins on June 23, 2017, 06:41:29 PM
I don't see why not. 

We know that if a Wizard is sacrificed on the Stone Table that their power is taken and given to one of the courts.

How else it would be done (besides the Kavros method), I don't know.  Though I'm pretty sure that no matter how it's done, if it's permanent, it is permanent because it killed them.  I can't really see a scenario where it wouldn't. 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Snark Knight on June 23, 2017, 07:07:09 PM
Just thought that rendering a person powerless is far more humane than killing them.

That's assuming that completely de-powering a rogue practitioner isn't fatal to him or her anyway.

It's not like the people taken by the Fomor are let go again once their abilities have been stolen.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 23, 2017, 07:10:50 PM
That's assuming that completely de-powering a rogue practitioner isn't fatal to him or her anyway.

It's not like the people taken by the Fomor are let go again once their abilities have been stolen.
Remember that a wizard's power isn't just a tool and a thing they can do. It's not like taking the driver's license away from a drunk, or banning a violent offender from purchasing a weapon.

Magic is part of who and what the wizard is. It's an intrinsic part of them, body, mind and soul. It's their identity, it is synonymous with their self.

Look at the first season of The Legend of Korra. Look at the people who had their bending taken away. That's the sort of thing we're talking about here.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 23, 2017, 08:10:04 PM
That'd require the Council at large to admit to the existence of the Blackstaff.  It's a secret.

If so it's a secret that anyone with any kind of importance knows.  Kincaid knew it.  The Red Court knew.  I imagine the Mothers know.  The only ones who don't are probably just the lowly uniformed.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Smaug with OCD on June 23, 2017, 09:13:56 PM
I could have sworn I read a WoJ about this very thing in regards to the Fomor a while back, but for the life of me, I can't find it.

As to why it isn't one of the Laws: "Hey, guys, I've got an Idea! Let's tell ALL OF OUR ENEMIES that they can take away our magic! That'll end well...(Sorry, was in kind of a sarcastic mood...)
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: peregrine on June 23, 2017, 09:23:33 PM
As others have said, I would expect it to be under the aegis of the other Laws, which prohibits them from doing so.

Also, if it is possible we don't know how they would do it.  It may be very difficult compared to killing someone.  Possibly prohibitively so.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 23, 2017, 10:22:58 PM
My guess is it would fall under necromancy.  The only time we have seen it done is when Harry's magic was stolen, and when he took it back.  So to actually take a wizards magic would probably require someone to leave their own body, consume the magic, and return to their body.  Harry didn't use necromancy but he didn't go after a person either, just a spirit.  To go after a person might require going further into the realm of death which can only happen if necromancy is involved I think.  At least that's how I think it could happen.

If it is possible for one wizard to do it to another wizard it would have to be pretty risk, and dark magic.  If it was easy to do someone like Kemmler would have just targeted wizards to consume their magic.  He would grow greatly in strength, and remove threats to himself all at the same time.  Cowl for example could just target all members of the Senior Council...  It hasn't happened though.  So either not possible for a mortal wizard to do, or highly risky stuff.

The risk would probably be my idea of leaving ones body...  While the spirit is out of the body it is probably at great risk of either being contained, resulting in permanent death, or while outside of the body, the body is defenseless, and open to attack. 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Griffyn612 on June 24, 2017, 01:40:38 AM
If so it's a secret that anyone with any kind of importance knows.  Kincaid knew it.  The Red Court knew.  I imagine the Mothers know.  The only ones who don't are probably just the lowly uniformed.
It's not common knowledge among the Council.  If the masses found out, there could be major backlash.  Harry really only forgave Eb because he was his mentor.  If anyone else on the Council had it, Harry would be paranoid as hell.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on June 24, 2017, 01:48:23 AM
Remember that a wizard's power isn't just a tool and a thing they can do. It's not like taking the driver's license away from a drunk, or banning a violent offender from purchasing a weapon.

Magic is part of who and what the wizard is. It's an intrinsic part of them, body, mind and soul. It's their identity, it is synonymous with their self.

This^^^.

I don't think you can steal a Wizard's magic, leaving the Wizard otherwise unhurt.  We know that some creatures can more-or-less eat part of the Wizard, and thus gain at least temporary access to at least some of his abilities, but this tears something fundamental out of the Wizard.  It might grow back, but it's not like taking a gun or a knife or a tool away from a person.  It's more like cutting off their hand.  Cutting off a hand is pretty harmful, even if the person can grow a new hand in time.

JB has said that Goodman Grey could devour Harry's essence like a naglooshi, but in so doing he would absorb so much of Harry that he would essentially rewrite himself into a copy of Harry.  You'd have a near-perfect physical, mental, and spiritual duplicate of Harry running around, but Harry would be dead or in a coma or something.

Sacrifice on the Stone Table isn't stealing a Wizard's power, it's killing the Wizard and devouring his essence.  Rather a different thing.

Now what probably is possible, though difficult, would be temporarily suppressing a Wizard's power so he can't use it.  That's almost surely doable, but it's also probably very difficult to do, hard to make stick, hard to make reliable, and a good deal more trouble than beheading or putting a bullet in him.

I mean suppose someone suppressed Harry's magic so he was essentially a normal man.  Would that make him harmless?  Well, he could still shoot you, still call in a favor from someone, still sic the Za-Guard on you, might still know some Names that would let him use ritual magic even without his own power, and at any given time he might regain his power.  If you were Harry's enemy, it would be far safer to kill him.

Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on June 24, 2017, 01:49:58 AM
It's not common knowledge among the Council.  If the masses found out, there could be major backlash.  Harry really only forgave Eb because he was his mentor.  If anyone else on the Council had it, Harry would be paranoid as hell.

Considering how many people outside the Council know, I find it hard to believe that most of the Council is totally in the dark.  They may not know who it is, but I'd bet most of them know that there is one.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: peregrine on June 24, 2017, 04:21:46 AM
If most of the Council knew there was a Blackstaff like that, it would tear itself apart over the hypocrisy inherent in the position.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 24, 2017, 05:05:58 AM
If most of the Council knew there was a Blackstaff like that, it would tear itself apart over the hypocrisy inherent in the position.

Why?  I can't bug people's phones, lock people in jail, or hit their car with a missile but governments does it all the time.  You don't see American's overthrowing the government because it has powers they don't.

If I was a wizard I'd be glad there was someone who had the power to defend the Council from those who use the laws against it.  I'd recognize that there were wizards who violated the laws, giving them great power and making it almost impossible to stop them.  The Blackstaff levels the playing field.

It's also not being hypocritical.  Dark magic corrupts people, usually causing insanity.  So there are laws to prevent it.  The Blackstaff is a filter that prevents corruption, and insanity.  It's not the same.  Also just like a government using powers it's citizens don't have, the Blackstaff is under supervision and cannot simply go about doing these things unchecked which is different than a random wizard violating the rules because they feel like it.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Snark Knight on June 26, 2017, 05:28:14 PM
JB has said that Goodman Grey could devour Harry's essence like a naglooshi, but in so doing he would absorb so much of Harry that he would essentially rewrite himself into a copy of Harry.  You'd have a near-perfect physical, mental, and spiritual duplicate of Harry running around, but Harry would be dead or in a coma or something.

Yet the full-blood naagloshii don't seem to be subject to that risk. From what Morgan said, they just gain power from those they kill without it changing their fundamental nature (he initially thought Shagnasty was tracking him for a chance at eating him, rather than on contract to the Circle).

I wonder what that implies for the human skinwalkers who were taught the techniques of the originals? I'd guess they're probably at least as subject to being changed according to 'you are what you eat' as Grey himself would be, since as mortals their nature is more changeable than the real deal, but maybe Grey is uniquely vulnerable?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 26, 2017, 06:05:32 PM
It's not common knowledge among the Council.  If the masses found out, there could be major backlash.  Harry really only forgave Eb because he was his mentor.  If anyone else on the Council had it, Harry would be paranoid as hell.

Same could be said for the CIA, FBI, or NSA.  Do I trust them completely?  No.  Do I worry that they may abuse their power?  Absolutely.  Do I think that they should exist?  Yes, as long as their power is not absolute, and they are held accountable.  You can be sure that if Eb went around murdering people for the fun of it, the Council would remove him.

If I were a wizard I'd feel the same way about the "Blackstaff".  I think that the wizard community is probably more in the dark about the Blackstaff than the supernatural community.  I picture the Blackstaff as a type of boogieman to vampires, and evil doers.  They whisper about him, but not too loudly as they fear he may find out.  Because wizards aren't the ones on the receiving end of the Blackstaff they aren't really aware of him. 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: peregrine on June 26, 2017, 08:57:03 PM
If I was a wizard I'd be glad there was someone who had the power to defend the Council from those who use the laws against it.  I'd recognize that there were wizards who violated the laws, giving them great power and making it almost impossible to stop them.  The Blackstaff levels the playing field.
They have them.  The Wardens.  The Blackstaff doesn't just stop wizards who violate the Laws, it breaks the laws.  And some of the dangers involved in doing so are inherent, not just some kind of dark magic taint.  Rewriting time or letting Outsiders in is not something the staff can undo the consequences of.

Plus, the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc... still have due process.  The Blackstaff is more like a covert organization that just goes around assassinating people.  Because, you know, that's what he does.  Remember the outcry over secret Eastern European prisons and warrantless wiretapping?  That's all the Blackstaff does.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 26, 2017, 09:19:30 PM
Don't look at the Blackstaff like a cop or an FBI agent. The Blackstaff is an assassin, a hitman, who makes problems for the White Council go away.

Without any kind of public process, no vote, no trial, nothing between the Council deciding someone is a problem -- or the Blackstaff himself deciding so -- and removing that problem.

So don't look at it like a cop who's allowed to kill when necessary in defense of the law and his own life.

Look at it like a shady-as-hell Man in Black who might just shoot you while you're going about your day to day business because the Senior Council decided you were a problem.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Snark Knight on June 27, 2017, 01:41:39 AM
So don't look at it like a cop who's allowed to kill when necessary in defense of the law and his own life.
Look at it like a shady-as-hell Man in Black who might just shoot you while you're going about your day to day business because the Senior Council decided you were a problem.

Given how prone the Council can be to factionalism, I don't think that would make it better. Every member who knows there is a Blackstaff but not who it is would be paranoid they might get whacked over political differences dressed up as 'for the good of the Council' at any moment.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 01:51:06 AM
Given how prone the Council can be to factionalism, I don't think that would make it better. Every member who knows there is a Blackstaff but not who it is would be paranoid they might get whacked over political differences dressed up as 'for the good of the Council' at any moment.
Plausible deniability. There's a huge difference between, "There's a rumor that the Senior Council has a hitman," and "The Senior Council has a hitman, we know this for a fact, and there's nothing we can do about it."
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Snark Knight on June 27, 2017, 02:48:02 AM
Plausible deniability. There's a huge difference between, "There's a rumor that the Senior Council has a hitman," and "The Senior Council has a hitman, we know this for a fact, and there's nothing we can do about it."

Not sure I buy that. Ebenezar's thinking was that even the rumour of the Black Council going public would send a bunch of wizards scurrying to defect to the side with momentum. Would wide circulation of rumours of a hitman be so readily discredited?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on June 27, 2017, 02:50:10 AM
They have them.  The Wardens. 

The Wardens are themselves (mostly) bound by the Laws.  That leaves them unable to cope with some problems.

Quote
The Blackstaff doesn't just stop wizards who violate the Laws, it breaks the laws.

Actually, it's not clear that it does from the Council/legal standpoint.  If the Laws don't apply to the Blackstaff, he can't break them.  As for the natural/cosmic consequences...

Quote
And some of the dangers involved in doing so are inherent, not just some kind of dark magic taint.  Rewriting time or letting Outsiders in is not something the staff can undo the consequences of.

We have no idea if that's true or not.

In practice, I suspect the Blackstaff rarely uses time magic or deals directly with Outsiders.  That's the Gatekeeper's bailiwick.  He might be legally authorized to do so, but I suspect his activity is more about the first 4, and necromancy.

Quote

Plus, the FBI, CIA, NSA, etc... still have due process.  The Blackstaff is more like a covert organization that just goes around assassinating people.  Because, you know, that's what he does.  Remember the outcry over secret Eastern European prisons and warrantless wiretapping?  That's all the Blackstaff does.

Pretty much.  That sort of thing is sometimes necessary, esp. in wartime.  Dangerous, but necessary.  It's not surprising that the Council has its black ops man.  It would be a huge surprise if they did not.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on June 27, 2017, 02:53:01 AM
Given how prone the Council can be to factionalism, I don't think that would make it better. Every member who knows there is a Blackstaff but not who it is would be paranoid they might get whacked over political differences dressed up as 'for the good of the Council' at any moment.

That's where one of the Iron Laws of Life (real or in the DV, it's true both places) kicks in:  Either you will discipline yourself, or someone else will discipline you instead.  Restrain yourself, or someone else will restrain you.

If the Blackstaff made a habit of abusing the power that way, it would tear the Council apart, as you note.  That's why one of the job requirements for the role would have to be discretion and self-control and judgement.

Also, the Blackstaff is just one man.  Keep that in mind.  If he gets too far out of hand, he can be dealt with by the Council, which outnumbers him thousands to one.  If necessary, any individual man can have an 'accident'.

The Blackstaff is a very powerful person, but he's not unchecked in practice, whatever the case might be on paper.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: unity1813 on June 27, 2017, 04:52:39 AM
Actually, it's not clear that it does from the Council/legal standpoint.  If the Laws don't apply to the Blackstaff, he can't break them. 

I would expect it's a kind of 007 license-to-kill situation. Yes, he can do it and not have the Wardens sicced on him by the Senior Council, but you can bet that if Arianna had indisputable evidence that Ebeneezer was behind Asteroid Dresden they'd disavow him and hang him out to dry. Choosing a wizard to be the Blackstaff is probably a matter of picking someone who isn't going to leave that evidence as much as it is finding someone both magically strong and morally incorruptible.

On-topic, recall that Harry threatened Binder with using his death-curse to take his power in Turn Coat:
Quote
I faced him with a chilly little smile. “You’ll spend the rest of your life unable to use magic, I think,” I said in a quiet, hopefully confident-sounding voice. “When I die, I take away your power. Forever. No more summoning. No more binding.” Binder’s expression began to flatten out into neutrality...He stared at me in silence for a second. “You can’t do that,” Binder said. “Take away my talent. That isn’t possible.”
 “I’m a wizard of the White Council, Binder. Not some stupid hack who spent his life using his gift to hurt people. Do you think we go around advertising everything we can do? If you knew half the things I’ve done that you think are impossible, you’d already be running.”

Death-curses seem to be able to do things that regular mortal magic can't, plus of course Harry could be bluffing. I wouldn't take it as gospel that it's possible or not, but Binder at least seems to think it isn't.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 27, 2017, 05:27:56 AM
Don't look at the Blackstaff like a cop or an FBI agent. The Blackstaff is an assassin, a hitman, who makes problems for the White Council go away.

Without any kind of public process, no vote, no trial, nothing between the Council deciding someone is a problem -- or the Blackstaff himself deciding so -- and removing that problem.

So don't look at it like a cop who's allowed to kill when necessary in defense of the law and his own life.

Look at it like a shady-as-hell Man in Black who might just shoot you while you're going about your day to day business because the Senior Council decided you were a problem.

First, the Council itself has proven itself to go to incredible lengths to bring people to justice with the Wardens.  They aren't going to simply see you as a problem, and send the Blackstaff after you.  If they send the Blackstaff after you, you're an absolute nightmare, not some wizard who's irritated some council members.

Second, if the Council did send the Blackstaff after you, that was the process.  The military, and CIA do the exact same thing.  They don't hold a trial, or take a vote when killing a terrorist.  They locate the terrorist, and drop a bomb on them, case closed.  It has to be done, arresting and taking every terrorist to trial isn't realistic.  War is dirty, it always has been, and always will be.

Third, the Blackstaff was granted these powers by the Council.  That is also the process.  It's no different than the military telling a sniper to remove any threat he see's.  He's not going to radio back every target for confirmation to shoot.  His job is to see a target, make a judgement call, and take the shot.  No trial, no vote, it's the snipers call.

I think this conversation can be a good example of how the Council as a whole would respond.  Some people would be upset, and some would not.  I'm on the side of the people who wouldn't be upset.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 01:36:03 PM
You're speaking with the outside knowledge we all have as readers. Knowledge that the average white council member is not going to have.

They don't know that the Blackstaff is "only" for super monster cases. Hell, we don't even know that -- we know that one case of Blackstaffing was entirely personal, people who went after his wife.

All the average white council member suspects is that there's someone out there who's allowed to kill at whim, and break the laws that they themselves have always been told were cosmically important and an instant death sentence if they were to break them for any reason.

Remember, the laws of magic aren't like laws of a nation or a state. Killing is illegal in the US, too, but if you're defending your own life or property, you could do it without even being arrested.

Killing for any reason at all with magic is a death sentence, with the extremely rare case of someone else literally putting their life on the line to keep you alive. And even then, it's assumed you're going to end up doing it again and killed.

So it's not like a sniper being given discretion to kill on specific missions. It's like a secret agent being given total discretion to torture, rape, maim and terrorize whoever he wants, if he decides it needs to be done.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: peregrine on June 27, 2017, 02:29:57 PM
Third, the Blackstaff was granted these powers by the Council.  That is also the process.  It's no different than the military telling a sniper to remove any threat he see's.  He's not going to radio back every target for confirmation to shoot.  His job is to see a target, make a judgement call, and take the shot.  No trial, no vote, it's the snipers call.
The sniper doesn't get to browse the papers and watch the news, then gear up and go off to shoot whoever he thinks has it coming.  The Blackstaff does.
Quote

I think this conversation can be a good example of how the Council as a whole would respond.  Some people would be upset, and some would not. 
Which is my point.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 27, 2017, 05:02:30 PM
The sniper doesn't get to browse the papers and watch the news, then gear up and go off to shoot whoever he thinks has it coming.  The Blackstaff does.Which is my point.

It's the same thing.  A sniper will watch an area within his visual capability and take down a target.  That's no different than the Blackstaff watching for targets.  It's just the Blackstaff's scanning the globe rather than a couple mile radius. 


I still find it hard to believe the majority of the White Council is unaware of the Blackstaff.  It's been around for a very long time, and wizards instinctively are curious, and gather knowledge.  It's their nature.  They also seem to associate with the supernatural community, again sources of information on the Blackstaff.

I think it's more likely that Harry personally didn't know for a number of reasons.

1.  He's young for a wizard
2.  He has been shunned by the Council, and seen a a security risk
3.  Harry avoids the White Council

I think the 3rd reason is the biggest.  Harry has gone out of his way to avoid everything to do with the White Council and only exposes himself to them when he has no choice.   I think most wizard folk who are involved with the Council probably know of, or at least heard whispers of the Blackstaff.  I doubt that they are 100% unaware.  It's more likely that they suspect, but can't confirm.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 05:08:52 PM
It's the same thing.  A sniper will watch an area within his visual capability and take down a target.  That's no different than the Blackstaff watching for targets.  It's just the Blackstaff's scanning the globe rather than a couple mile radius.
It really, really is not. A sniper is sent to places where there are known or suspected enemies, his orders coming from a chain of command and only allowed to shoot in that specific instance, in that specific space, at that specific time and often, specific people that are pre-approved.

They don't just turn a sniper toward a village and say, "Oh, just blast whoever you think you need to blast and we'll pick you up later." They put him in a place with orders like, "You're waiting for the Grand Generalissississimo. If you have a clean shot, take him out."

The Blackstaff has no orders. He has no real oversight. He has full discretion to do whatever he wants (remember, "What's the point of having a license to ignore the Senior Council if I don't use it?"). He is not sent after a target -- he decides who to kill, when to kill, how to kill, and can do so whenever he wants to.

The comparison you're proposing just does not work. It's like saying a kidnapper is the same as the cop because, hey, they both handcuff people and put them in a locked room.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 27, 2017, 06:10:52 PM
It really, really is not. A sniper is sent to places where there are known or suspected enemies, his orders coming from a chain of command and only allowed to shoot in that specific instance, in that specific space, at that specific time and often, specific people that are pre-approved.

They don't just turn a sniper toward a village and say, "Oh, just blast whoever you think you need to blast and we'll pick you up later." They put him in a place with orders like, "You're waiting for the Grand Generalissississimo. If you have a clean shot, take him out."

The Blackstaff has no orders. He has no real oversight. He has full discretion to do whatever he wants (remember, "What's the point of having a license to ignore the Senior Council if I don't use it?"). He is not sent after a target -- he decides who to kill, when to kill, how to kill, and can do so whenever he wants to.

The comparison you're proposing just does not work. It's like saying a kidnapper is the same as the cop because, hey, they both handcuff people and put them in a locked room.

Watch this and answer again.  Based on true events.  "It's your call"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o70G8oZBkHU

Think of who the Wardens go after, and how dangerous they are.  If the Blackstaff is involved it's even more dangerous... 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 06:21:58 PM
That Sniper is deployed to a specific area, an active war zone, by a chain of command. He has orders, support and oversight, and if he shoots the wrong person, he's going to be held accountable. The Sniper did not just watch the news one day, decide to head over there, and shoot whoever he decided needed to be shot.

The Blackstaff, however, can and does. He has no oversight from the Senior Council. He can act without any orders at all, and do whatever he sees fit.

Do you really not see the difference here?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 27, 2017, 06:28:06 PM
That Sniper is deployed to a specific area, an active war zone, by a chain of command.
The Blackstaff was deployed by a chain of command.  The entire world is an active war zone when it comes to the power of an individual wizard.

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He has orders, support and oversight, and if he shoots the wrong person, he's going to be held accountable. The Sniper did not just watch the news one day, decide to head over there, and shoot whoever he decided needed to be shot.
You think the Blackstaff isn't?  You think he can do anything he wants without consequence?  Archangel's don't have that power.  Mab doesn't have that power.  Why would you think that he has a mantle of power that gives him complete, and total free will to do what he wants without any kind of consequence or punishment?  Do you think the White Council would allow him to take out it's own members?  What if he started nuking cities around the globe?  Think they would stand by and say "Well he's the Blackstaff, can't interfere"

Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 06:39:53 PM
The Blackstaff was deployed by a chain of command.
So we know the Senior Council ordered Ebenezer to kill Ortega? And the Senior Council ordered Ebenezer to unleash the Blackstaff on the people who messed with his wife?

Did the Senior Council order him to Chichen Itza?

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The entire world is an active war zone when it comes to the power of an individual wizard.
What does this even mean?

I mean, seriously. "The entire world is an active war zone"? No, no it is not. Especially not during the times when the White Council isn't at war, which makes up 90% of the time we know Ebenezer's been the Blackstaff.

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You think the Blackstaff isn't?  You think he can do anything he wants without consequence?
Well, yes? Because Ebenezer outright says he has the power to ignore the senior council, and we've never once seen or heard of anyone giving him orders that he had to follow, or even following up on the attacks he's made.

The idea that he gets orders he has to follow from a chain of command that has checks and balances to it simply is not presented in the books, and is in fact directly contradicted by Ebenezer himself.

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Archangel's don't have that power.  Mab doesn't have that power.  Why would you think that he has a mantle of power that gives him complete, and total free will to do what he wants without any kind of consequence or punishment?
It's not a mantle of power, and it's not at all like either the Archangels or Mab. He's still a man. He has free will. You're mixing up two very different sets of rules and allowances here in a way that is simply not applicable.

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Do you think the White Council would allow him to take out it's own members?
Both Maggie Sr. and Harry were and are members of the White Council. I.e., the White Council has outright told him to take out its own members.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 27, 2017, 07:09:23 PM
So we know the Senior Council ordered Ebenezer to kill Ortega? And the Senior Council ordered Ebenezer to unleash the Blackstaff on the people who messed with his wife?

Did the Senior Council order him to Chichen Itza?
What does this even mean?
The Blackstaff is a position created by, and recognized by the White Council, therefor it was deployed by a chain of command.  Eb didn't create it himself.

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I mean, seriously. "The entire world is an active war zone"? No, no it is not. Especially not during the times when the White Council isn't at war, which makes up 90% of the time we know Ebenezer's been the Blackstaff.
A world in which a single wizard can perform a Dark Hallow is a war zone.  A single wizard can unleash unimaginable devastation, so yes the entire planet is in fact a war zone where anything can happen and requires someone who can strike at such a threat.  I think that is the most difficult thing I'm trying to convey here.  In the Dresdenverse it doesn't require a country to unleash nukes.  A single individual can unleash incredible devastation, on a global scale.  That's why the Blackstaff exists, for those individuals or groups.  I don't see anything that points to Eb abusing his power.

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Well, yes? Because Ebenezer outright says he has the power to ignore the senior council, and we've never once seen or heard of anyone giving him orders that he had to follow, or even following up on the attacks he's made.
Who says the Blackstaff only reports to the White Council?  Also, do you think Eb told Harry EVERYTHING about his job?  Just because he can ignore the White Council doesn't mean he's not accountable to someone, or should I say something. 

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It's not a mantle of power, and it's not at all like either the Archangels or Mab. He's still a man. He has free will. You're mixing up two very different sets of rules and allowances here in a way that is simply not applicable.
"The Blackstaff chooses the wizard" - Jim.  Sounds like a Mantle to me.

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Both Maggie Sr. and Harry were and are members of the White Council. I.e., the White Council has outright told him to take out its own members.
Kind of contradicts your statement about a chain of command doesn't it?  I wasn't talking about the Council ordering him to take out it's members, I was talking about if for example Eb got tired of Langtry and decided to kill him.  Think the others would just stand by except it?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 08:13:38 PM
The Blackstaff is a position created by, and recognized by the White Council, therefor it was deployed by a chain of command.  Eb didn't create it himself.
Created =/= deployed.

Deployed means a decision was made to send him somewhere to perform a task. We have no indication that the Senior Council regularly does this, or that it can enforce such orders, or a refusal of those orders.

General Ross helped create the Hulk in a lot of continuities, but you'd never say he deploys the Hulk or is in the chain of command of the Hulk.

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A world in which a single wizard can perform a Dark Hallow is a war zone.
By that logic, a world in which a single person can detonate a nuke is a war zone.

That's not what a war zone means.

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A single wizard can unleash unimaginable devastation, so yes the entire planet is in fact a war zone where anything can happen and requires someone who can strike at such a threat.
War zone: a place in which a war is being fought.

That someone can do something does not mean a war is being fought. You're using terms to mean things they simply do not mean.

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I think that is the most difficult thing I'm trying to convey here.  In the Dresdenverse it doesn't require a country to unleash nukes.  A single individual can unleash incredible devastation, on a global scale.  That's why the Blackstaff exists, for those individuals or groups.  I don't see anything that points to Eb abusing his power.
Regardless of the scale, a war zone is a place where war is being actively waged. It is not the excruciatingly vague definition you're trying to use so you can compare things between which there is really no apt comparison.

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Who says the Blackstaff only reports to the White Council?  Also, do you think Eb told Harry EVERYTHING about his job?  Just because he can ignore the White Council doesn't mean he's not accountable to someone, or should I say something.
Who else would he be accountable to? It's a position on the White Council chosen by the Senior Council. There's literally nobody else he could be expected to answer to.

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"The Blackstaff chooses the wizard" - Jim.  Sounds like a Mantle to me.
The quote is, "Eb took up the Blackstaff in 1884-1885 somewhere in there.  The Blackstaff chooses his successor." I.e., the wizard who has the title of Blackstaff chooses who wields it next, not that the staff itself somehow does.

According to Jim, it's just an object with special abilities, without any sentience of its own, and all it really does is shield Ebenezer from the effects of black magic.

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Kind of contradicts your statement about a chain of command doesn't it?
Ebenezer uses Harry as an example of him ignoring the will of the council. A chain of command means nothing when the person being "commanded" can just not follow it and faces no consequences. And Ebenezer didn't face any consequence for ignoring this order.

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I wasn't talking about the Council ordering him to take out it's members, I was talking about if for example Eb got tired of Langtry and decided to kill him.  Think the others would just stand by except it?
Obviously they're not going to be okay with their secret, illegal assassin being turned against them. That's kind of the point.

You think White Council members will just stand by and accept that there's someone out there authorized to execute them on the spot, without even the show trial? Remember the uproar and outrage in Summer Knight when it was suggested they do that to Harry?

So yes, the Senior Council would have a problem with their secret assassin assassinating them. Just like the regular members would have a problem with that secret assassin murdering them.

That's exactly why people would have a problem with the Blackstaff.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 27, 2017, 08:30:25 PM
Created =/= deployed.

Deployed means a decision was made to send him somewhere to perform a task. We have no indication that the Senior Council regularly does this, or that it can enforce such orders, or a refusal of those orders.

General Ross helped create the Hulk in a lot of continuities, but you'd never say he deploys the Hulk or is in the chain of command of the Hulk.
Are you saying that the Senior Council does not support the Blackstaff, and wants him stopped?  If not then they believe he is fulfilling his position that they created.

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By that logic, a world in which a single person can detonate a nuke is a war zone.
If the person is attempting to detonate a nuke then yes.  Can you point to an instance the Blackstaff attacked someone who was not a threat?

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That's not what a war zone means.
War zone: a place in which a war is being fought.

That someone can do something does not mean a war is being fought. You're using terms to mean things they simply do not mean.
Regardless of the scale, a war zone is a place where war is being actively waged. It is not the excruciatingly vague definition you're trying to use so you can compare things between which there is really no apt comparison.
Have you not been reading the books?  Outsiders, vampires, Fallen, Dark Wizards, Old Gods, Fomor...  There are wars being fought.  You're looking at it from a human war perspective, and not from the Supernatural one. 

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You think White Council members will just stand by and accept that there's someone out there authorized to execute them on the spot, without even the show trial? Remember the uproar and outrage in Summer Knight when it was suggested they do that to Harry?

So yes, the Senior Council would have a problem with their secret assassin assassinating them. Just like the regular members would have a problem with that secret assassin murdering them.

That's exactly why people would have a problem with the Blackstaff.

Can you point to an example of Council members being murdered by the Blackstaff without Senior Council approval?  You keep saying it like it's happened a lot.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 27, 2017, 09:02:33 PM
Are you saying that the Senior Council does not support the Blackstaff, and wants him stopped?  If not then they believe he is fulfilling his position that they created.
That's still not what deployed means.

In this context, deployed would mean they told Ebenezer, "Go to this specific place and do this specific thing." They apparently do not and cannot enforce it when they do give him an instruction.

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If the person is attempting to detonate a nuke then yes.
Again: That is not what war zone means. You keep using the term in a way that does not match what it means.

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Can you point to an instance the Blackstaff attacked someone who was not a threat?
Have you not been reading the books?  Outsiders, vampires, Fallen, Dark Wizards, Old Gods, Fomor...  There are wars being fought.  You're looking at it from a human war perspective, and not from the Supernatural one.
Please tell me where we have confirmation that the White Council was in an active state of war against the Fallen, when the Dark Wizards organized into a force that could war with the White Council, when they were at war with the Old Gods in the course of Ebenezer's time with the Blackstaff.

We don't know that any of what he's done was in the context of any war, but we do know that the Council has not faced war like the Red Court in a thousand years.

I.e., the acts Ebenezer committed as the Blackstaff happened in a time when the White Council explicitly was not at war.

In fact, we don't know the identities of anyone Ebenezer has killed as the Blackstaff. The only ones we have hints about are the people who messed with his wife (not a world-ending threat, a personal vendetta) and Ortega (again, a personal vendetta -- and do you think all his human servants deserved it?). We know he tried to hit Lord Raith (again, a personal vendetta -- over someone the Senior Council wanted dead anyway, so they wouldn't have ordered it).

The point is, nobody on the White Council knows who Ebenezer as the Blackstaff is killing or why. The nature of his job means that nobody is supposed to know.

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Can you point to an example of Council members being murdered by the Blackstaff without Senior Council approval?  You keep saying it like it's happened a lot.
That's not the point.

The point is it could happen. That the existence of a secret assassin who's allowed to break all the rules that everyone else is under the threat of death to obey, and who the potential targets have no say about is terrifying. It doesn't matter what Ebenezer has actually done with the position; the point is he could extremely easily either kill whoever he wants, or kill whoever the Senior Council deems a problem, and both situations are and should be terrifying to the lower ranking members.

Seriously, based on his known hits and attempted hits, pissing off Ebenezer personally is the only real requirement for the Blackstaff to wipe you and everyone within about a mile of your current position off the face of the planet.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: dspringer1 on June 27, 2017, 11:49:57 PM
My two cents (or maybe 5 cents...)
 *  They do not need a law against stealing power from a wizard.   All wizards already are part of the White Council (or warlocks) and the white council already defends their own.   

*  They might need a law against stealing power from a magically weak mortal -- but I suspect the benefits are low.  Also, the white council protects mortals from wizards (and warlocks), so you will get into trouble either way.

*  The black staff is much less powerful than you people seem to think.  Or at least the power increase it grants is much less powerful.   At the end of the day, it gives the wielder the option to safely use some types of magic that they would otherwise not be able to use safely.   Unpleasant/disagreeable magic.   That gives the blackstaff some flexibility that other wizards do not have.  But it is not an increase in raw power.   In reality, I suspect the Blackstaff is usually not super skilled in these dark magics as they lack the in depth practice in those arts that they have in other magical schools.  So any magic is going to be relatively inefficient compared to what else they can cast.     Very useful yes -- but not a total game changer. 

*  It is certainly possible that the blackstaff gives a raw power boost, but that has not been confirmed by the books.   If it does, I suspect it does so with powers associated with death or ending (ie - powers associated with mother winter).  That is consistent with how Eb used the staff.   

*  The position of black staff also gives the wizard a lot of additional flexibility, primarily in "grey" areas that would otherwise be forbidden.   They can certainly go into the black with the blackstaff to protect them.  However, any obvious steps into the black would need to be justified to the senior council.   It is a license to break the rules to protect the council.  It is not a general exemption from the rules.    I would actually argue that the position of blackstaff gives more effective power to the wizard than possession of the black staff itself.  At least more power to a wizard that wishes to remain in good standing with the white council. 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 28, 2017, 02:15:49 AM
That's still not what deployed means.

In this context, deployed would mean they told Ebenezer, "Go to this specific place and do this specific thing." They apparently do not and cannot enforce it when they do give him an instruction.
Again: That is not what war zone means. You keep using the term in a way that does not match what it means.
Please tell me where we have confirmation that the White Council was in an active state of war against the Fallen, when the Dark Wizards organized into a force that could war with the White Council, when they were at war with the Old Gods in the course of Ebenezer's time with the Blackstaff.

We don't know that any of what he's done was in the context of any war, but we do know that the Council has not faced war like the Red Court in a thousand years.

I.e., the acts Ebenezer committed as the Blackstaff happened in a time when the White Council explicitly was not at war.

In fact, we don't know the identities of anyone Ebenezer has killed as the Blackstaff. The only ones we have hints about are the people who messed with his wife (not a world-ending threat, a personal vendetta) and Ortega (again, a personal vendetta -- and do you think all his human servants deserved it?). We know he tried to hit Lord Raith (again, a personal vendetta -- over someone the Senior Council wanted dead anyway, so they wouldn't have ordered it).

The point is, nobody on the White Council knows who Ebenezer as the Blackstaff is killing or why. The nature of his job means that nobody is supposed to know.
That's not the point.

The point is it could happen. That the existence of a secret assassin who's allowed to break all the rules that everyone else is under the threat of death to obey, and who the potential targets have no say about is terrifying. It doesn't matter what Ebenezer has actually done with the position; the point is he could extremely easily either kill whoever he wants, or kill whoever the Senior Council deems a problem, and both situations are and should be terrifying to the lower ranking members.

Seriously, based on his known hits and attempted hits, pissing off Ebenezer personally is the only real requirement for the Blackstaff to wipe you and everyone within about a mile of your current position off the face of the planet.

I will answer this stuff but before I do what are you talking about with regards to his wife?  I don't know anything about it.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 28, 2017, 02:24:26 AM
I will answer this stuff but before I do what are you talking about with regards to his wife?  I don't know anything about it.
There's a somewhat-recent WOJ that one of the events Ebenezer lists to Harry in Blood Rites was Ebenezer dishing out some wrath on people who tried to get to him by attacking his wife. It's not in the compilation yet, I don't think.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 28, 2017, 03:59:19 AM
There's a somewhat-recent WOJ that one of the events Ebenezer lists to Harry in Blood Rites was Ebenezer dishing out some wrath on people who tried to get to him by attacking his wife. It's not in the compilation yet, I don't think.

Oh ok.  I'm going to answer your questions in a new topic because the talk of the Blackstaff has kind of hijacked someone elses subject
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Zaphodess on June 28, 2017, 08:24:55 AM
My guess is it would fall under necromancy.  The only time we have seen it done is when Harry's magic was stolen, and when he took it back.  So to actually take a wizards magic would probably require someone to leave their own body, consume the magic, and return to their body.  Harry didn't use necromancy but he didn't go after a person either, just a spirit.  To go after a person might require going further into the realm of death which can only happen if necromancy is involved I think.  At least that's how I think it could happen.

If it is possible for one wizard to do it to another wizard it would have to be pretty risk, and dark magic.  If it was easy to do someone like Kemmler would have just targeted wizards to consume their magic.  He would grow greatly in strength, and remove threats to himself all at the same time.  Cowl for example could just target all members of the Senior Council...  It hasn't happened though.  So either not possible for a mortal wizard to do, or highly risky stuff.

The risk would probably be my idea of leaving ones body...  While the spirit is out of the body it is probably at great risk of either being contained, resulting in permanent death, or while outside of the body, the body is defenseless, and open to attack.
Oh, I think that's exactly how Kemmler and his disciples got so powerful. They stole magic from other practitioners, spirits and creatures. You're right that it can't be easy or risk-free, but that's not saying it can't be done.

And I think that Harry actually did it in GP: He practised Necromancy and got Kravos power that way. He broke the fifth Law already.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Rasins on June 29, 2017, 01:59:46 PM
See, I'd suggest that stealing power from another Wizard, and leaving them alive would be more of invading the mind of another against their will, than Necromancy.

If you kill them, then it would be a violation of the first law AND maybe invading the mind, or necromancy.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Quantus on June 29, 2017, 02:21:13 PM
And I think that Harry actually did it in GP: He practised Necromancy and got Kravos power that way. He broke the fifth Law already.
Nah, in GP that was already a ghost he was battling so its not (legally) against the Law, and given that the actual mechanism used was Harry recovering his own Life Energy rather than tapping Necromantic energy, I think it's safe from that Law too (both legally and metaphysically), and it would presumably thus fall into the Ectomancy category. 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Rasins on June 29, 2017, 05:24:58 PM
Couldn't you say what Corpstaker did was like stealing a wizard's power.  Their power and their body. 

After all, Luccio didn't take her power with her.  Her knowledge for sure, but not her talents and power level.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 29, 2017, 05:32:46 PM
Couldn't you say what Corpstaker did was like stealing a wizard's power.  Their power and their body. 

After all, Luccio didn't take her power with her.  Her knowledge for sure, but not her talents and power level.

Stealing or replacing?  Do we know if she gained, or lost power by switching?  Lucio lost power so it could be the same for Corpsetaker.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Rasins on June 29, 2017, 05:37:00 PM
Stealing or replacing?  Do we know if she gained, or lost power by switching?  Lucio lost power so it could be the same for Corpsetaker.

Since Luccio has to use the potential that the body came with that she now possesses, I'd be willing to bet that CT can use the power of the body that she possesses.  That's why CT was able to take Butters without permission.  She'd eaten so many Really Crazy spirits, and that allowed her to circumvent the need for his permission.  Once she was in a physical body, her attempt to jump into Molly's body was an upgrade.  That was based on Molly's potential magical ability.  Butter's had basically none, Molly a great deal.  Had Harry been alive, she might have targeted him instead.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Arjan on June 29, 2017, 06:39:35 PM
Of course you can steal a wizards power, you steal (part of) the wizards spirit. With that you take part of the wizards nature into yourself. You will get urges, it can change you.

White court vampires do something similar and Justine uses the connection to manage Thomas's moods.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 29, 2017, 06:48:40 PM
Of course you can steal a wizards power, you steal (part of) the wizards spirit. With that you take part of the wizards nature into yourself. You will get urges, it can change you.

White court vampires do something similar and Justine uses the connection to manage Thomas's moods.

There is a difference between stealing someone's power, and it's effects on you.  We have seen it done once from a spirit.  Could a living wizard do it to a living wizard is the question. If so why don't we see more evidence of it, and why isn't it in the laws of magic?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Snark Knight on June 29, 2017, 07:37:02 PM
In reality, I suspect the Blackstaff is usually not super skilled in these dark magics as they lack the in depth practice in those arts that they have in other magical schools.  So any magic is going to be relatively inefficient compared to what else they can cast.

I don't think it gets more efficient that Ebenezar's life shutdown on the Red Court mercenaries. They just dropped without a mark on them, at no apparent cost of exertion to him.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Quantus on June 29, 2017, 08:47:24 PM
There is a difference between stealing someone's power, and it's effects on you.  We have seen it done once from a spirit.  Could a living wizard do it to a living wizard is the question. If so why don't we see more evidence of it, and why isn't it in the laws of magic?
The Answer per a WOJ that Im looking for is "Yes, and it's Horrible."  I suspect two things: 1) odds are however it is accomplished would fall under one of the existing Laws of Magic (Id say 5/7 of the Laws could possibly make sense).  And 2) I think we've seen, or at least repeatedly heard mention, of this several loads of times since the Fomor came on the scene, I think this is precisely why they are collecting "magical talents" with no particular regard or preference for power levels. 


Serack, do you recall that WOJ?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 29, 2017, 09:09:14 PM
The Answer per a WOJ that Im looking for is "Yes, and it's Horrible."  I suspect two things: 1) odds are however it is accomplished would fall under one of the existing Laws of Magic (Id say 5/7 of the Laws could possibly make sense).  And 2) I think we've seen, or at least repeatedly heard mention, of this several loads of times since the Fomor came on the scene, I think this is precisely why they are collecting "magical talents" with no particular regard or preference for power levels. 


Serack, do you recall that WOJ?
I dunno about WOJ, but the RPG's write-up of power-stealing abilities has a note from Billy that goes, "It's a bit of an "evil people eater" power, so it should be treated very strictly when in PC hands."
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on June 30, 2017, 03:08:56 AM
The Answer per a WOJ that Im looking for is "Yes, and it's Horrible."  I suspect two things: 1) odds are however it is accomplished would fall under one of the existing Laws of Magic (Id say 5/7 of the Laws could possibly make sense).  And 2) I think we've seen, or at least repeatedly heard mention, of this several loads of times since the Fomor came on the scene, I think this is precisely why they are collecting "magical talents" with no particular regard or preference for power levels. 

The thing is that I suspect the powers are not separate from the Wizard, they're a part of body and soul, so to take them away rips away part of the Wizard's very self.  I don't think you can take the power away and leave everything else untouched.

Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 30, 2017, 05:48:26 AM
I dunno about WOJ, but the RPG's write-up of power-stealing abilities has a note from Billy that goes, "It's a bit of an "evil people eater" power, so it should be treated very strictly when in PC hands."

Interesting...  I want to see it in practice in the books.  If it's possible that should be one of the first things a bad guy does.  Like Sylar from heroes...  That kind of power starts to snowball if you actually steal the power from a few wizards.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on June 30, 2017, 12:15:31 PM
Interesting...  I want to see it in practice in the books.  If it's possible that should be one of the first things a bad guy does.  Like Sylar from heroes...  That kind of power starts to snowball if you actually steal the power from a few wizards.
The power listing in the game book specifically mentions "This is what gave the Nightmare not only Harry's form but also his advanced spell-crafting abilities," and says the victim is going to be either dead or diminished from the process.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Quantus on June 30, 2017, 02:20:07 PM
The power listing in the game book specifically mentions "This is what gave the Nightmare not only Harry's form but also his advanced spell-crafting abilities," and says the victim is going to be either dead or diminished from the process.
In GP, it latched onto him during a Dream, specifically on his belly Chakra, traditionally the house of the bodies Chi, which is what he said was sucked out of Harry.   But that was a Ghost attacking a living Wizard, so I dont know if the rules change. 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Serack on June 30, 2017, 07:36:34 PM
The Answer per a WOJ that Im looking for is "Yes, and it's Horrible."  I suspect two things: 1) odds are however it is accomplished would fall under one of the existing Laws of Magic (Id say 5/7 of the Laws could possibly make sense).  And 2) I think we've seen, or at least repeatedly heard mention, of this several loads of times since the Fomor came on the scene, I think this is precisely why they are collecting "magical talents" with no particular regard or preference for power levels. 


Serack, do you recall that WOJ?

I think the WoJ you are referring to is from the latest AMA and it's actually about if Goodman Grey could assume/steal a wizard's powers, which Jim said would annihilate his own personality in the process, being effectively a suicide. 

The type of stuff most of you guys are discussing seems to be ideas about stealing a wizards power that are more prevalent in Benedict Jacka's Alex Verus series. 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on June 30, 2017, 08:55:34 PM
I think the WoJ you are referring to is from the latest AMA and it's actually about if Goodman Grey could assume/steal a wizard's powers, which Jim said would annihilate his own personality in the process, being effectively a suicide. 

The type of stuff most of you guys are discussing seems to be ideas about stealing a wizards power that are more prevalent in Benedict Jacka's Alex Verus series.

Oh so by stealing a wizards powers in the Dresdenverse it's more like you become the wizard rather than just absorb their raw power for your own consumption?  The reason I thought it might be that way was Harry consumed the spirit, had access to it's form of magic but didn't actually become the person it had been.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Zaphodess on July 01, 2017, 06:43:46 AM
Oh so by stealing a wizards powers in the Dresdenverse it's more like you become the wizard rather than just absorb their raw power for your own consumption?  The reason I thought it might be that way was Harry consumed the spirit, had access to it's form of magic but didn't actually become the person it had been.


Split personality, sort of? He didn't like Kravos magic or his urges, so he shut them up real quick. I think he let it wither rather than use it, but he could have chosen otherwise.

It's not like Harry doesn't have a huge talent for ignoring and transforming strong influences on his soul.

btw: I like the concept how Harvesting works in the Alex Verus novels and it fits right into the Dresden verse imo. Doesn't have to be 1:1, but the basic idea is cool.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: peregrine on July 01, 2017, 01:48:35 PM
Oh so by stealing a wizards powers in the Dresdenverse it's more like you become the wizard rather than just absorb their raw power for your own consumption? 
That probably says more about Grey than power.  He took on personality traits of even a pure mortal (we assume) when he turned into the bank manager.  It may not apply to everyone.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Arjan on July 01, 2017, 06:46:49 PM
Oh so by stealing a wizards powers in the Dresdenverse it's more like you become the wizard rather than just absorb their raw power for your own consumption?  The reason I thought it might be that way was Harry consumed the spirit, had access to it's form of magic but didn't actually become the person it had been.
Slightly more complicated because your own spirit is there as well but I think that is why mantles were invented, you have to isolate that much power otherwise it will overwhelm you immediately.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on July 01, 2017, 06:52:32 PM
Slightly more complicated because your own spirit is there as well but I think that is why mantles were invented, you have to isolate that much power otherwise it will overwhelm you immediately.

You know that's one thing that would be cool to see.  Someone actually craft a Mantle.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Serack on July 02, 2017, 03:51:05 PM
Oh so by stealing a wizards powers in the Dresdenverse it's more like you become the wizard rather than just absorb their raw power for your own consumption?  The reason I thought it might be that way was Harry consumed the spirit, had access to it's form of magic but didn't actually become the person it had been.

Pretty sure Jim was talking about what would happen to Goodman Grey, not anyone who does that kind of thing. 
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: jonas on July 02, 2017, 08:43:10 PM
Isn't there an entirely different woj(s) that says that the reason harry didn't keep Kravos' power was because there was no death/soul exchange? that you are what you eat, even if your a wizard? Because I always thought it explicitly implied the key to taking in and keeping power is death/soul infusion? same way the darkhallow works, stone table, ect. I assume because soul is they key to change, in order to have a proper fusion requires said key.

& I assume that having a soul mixed into the mantle is how a mantle is formed as a separate thing. not that it necessarily stays 'soul' as defined by human usage. but mantles seem to have their own 'spirit' if not consciousness.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Zaphodess on July 03, 2017, 10:44:06 AM
But Kravos was a ghost and Corpsetaker at least planned to consume plenty of ghosts for her version of the Darkhallow.

I'm confused ...
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: jonas on July 03, 2017, 12:07:22 PM
But Kravos was a ghost and Corpsetaker at least planned to consume plenty of ghosts for her version of the Darkhallow.

I'm confused ...
? corpsetakers dark hallow? What the wraiths? Ah, seems something slightly different goes on when pure spirits absorb other spirit/memories. Not sure what she was gonna do that was specifically like the dark hallow, Was she gonna eat the wraiths for a power? was it Halloween? Plus, all that power spirits have isn't any more permanent than Kravos'. It fades away as it is used up unless it is reconnected via memory gathering like Sir Stuart.

That makes the soul what in this equation? Change/growth? soul+memory=life?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Zaphodess on July 03, 2017, 12:17:59 PM
? corpsetakers dark hallow? What the wraiths? Ah, seems something slightly different goes on when pure spirits absorb other spirit/memories. Not sure what she was gonna do that was specifically like the dark hallow, Was she gonna eat the wraiths for a power? was it Halloween? Plus, all that power spirits have isn't any more permanent than Kravos'. It fades away as it is used up unless it is reconnected via memory gathering like Sir Stuart.

That makes the soul what in this equation? Change/growth? soul+memory=life?
I was thinking about her plan in Dead Beat, not Ghost Story. But it fits too.
In DB, she whipped up lots of spirits to be consumed. She even went to the trouble to acquire some ancient Native American artefacts to attract the right spirits. I can't imagine she would have gone that way if the energy gained was only temporary.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: jonas on July 03, 2017, 12:28:30 PM
I was thinking about her plan in Dead Beat, not Ghost Story. But it fits too.
In DB, she whipped up lots of spirits to be consumed. She even went to the trouble to acquire some ancient Native American artefacts to attract the right spirits. I can't imagine she would have gone that way if the energy gained was only temporary.
Oh, the darkhallow would have instantly killed everyone for miles around and the 'suction' would have slurped up all the ambient energy. Including all those newly dead and parting souls. This is why the more people who died the more potent the hallow would become. The spirit/memory itself are what is fed that energy. So the older spirits would have a deeper impression. Soul and spirit must match in equivalence? idk on that. Now I have questions instead of answers, thank you ;)
Although thinking critically, life is what's needed, not death per say. Just nobody has all that extra life to match extra memory/spirit all on their own. River shoulders, maybe?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on July 03, 2017, 04:42:42 PM
How to take a wizards power for yourself.  You must consume it of course...

(http://i.makeagif.com/media/5-31-2015/p0yT-c.gif)
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: ~Shadow~ on July 03, 2017, 05:44:50 PM
2014 Reddit AMA:

Quote
is there any way a wizard could absorb the magic of another wizard to become more powerful?

Yes. And it is /horrible/.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: peregrine on July 04, 2017, 02:45:41 AM
Though horrible does not necessarily mean illegal.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on July 04, 2017, 05:10:13 AM
Though horrible does not necessarily mean illegal.

I'd wager the only way to take the power is in an illegal fashion.  If that wasn't the case, bad wizards would just take other wizards power without fear of punishment.  It would happen all the time.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: jonas on July 04, 2017, 05:15:12 AM
I'd wager the only way to take the power is in an illegal fashion.  If that wasn't the case, bad wizards would just take other wizards power without fear of punishment.  It would happen all the time.
I could see a technicality if it didn't kill them. But whom would bother to work out such a thing when its probably far easier to do otherwise? I mean, the council d-bags maybe, but not as a punishment. Then again if cowl is correct about the council being corrupted, perhaps so.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: groinkick on July 04, 2017, 05:21:19 AM
I could see a technicality if it didn't kill them. But whom would bother to work out such a thing when its probably far easier to do otherwise? I mean, the council d-bags maybe, but not as a punishment. Then again if cowl is correct about the council being corrupted, perhaps so.

Another thing to consider.  If you could take someone's powers permanently without harming them, wouldn't the Council do that instead of cutting off a warlock's head?  Just doesn't jive
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on July 04, 2017, 05:25:04 AM
I could see a technicality if it didn't kill them.

Something can be OK under the Seven Laws and still forbidden by the Council as a specific matter.  Seven Laws or not, I suspect that if a dark Wizard started stealing power from Council Wizards, the Wardens would soon be after him.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: jonas on July 04, 2017, 05:27:11 AM
Another thing to consider.  If you could take someone's powers permanently without harming them, wouldn't the Council do that instead of cutting off a warlock's head?  Just doesn't jive
I figure if it's been done, it's been done for personal gain and kept secret. Plus, if you are what you eat, who'd wanna eat crazy?(pretty sure scarecrow ate some crazy from Molly lol)

Erk, I just had a horrible thought about all those untrained practitioners who've been disappearing and what might be happening to them all. You know, besides mental enslavement.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Rasins on July 05, 2017, 06:41:50 PM
Something can be OK under the Seven Laws and still forbidden by the Council as a specific matter.  Seven Laws or not, I suspect that if a dark Wizard started stealing power from Council Wizards, the Wardens would soon be after him.

Evidence of this is the LaFortier case.  He wasn't killed with magic, yet the Council held a trial and claimed jurisdiction over the murder.

Why not other things?
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: jonas on July 06, 2017, 12:10:17 AM
Evidence of this is the LaFortier case.  He wasn't killed with magic, yet the Council held a trial and claimed jurisdiction over the murder.

Why not other things?
He was killed at HQ in Edinburg. Their jurisdiction.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on July 06, 2017, 06:16:04 AM
He was killed at HQ in Edinburg. Their jurisdiction.

I don't think they'd have cared if they thought Morgan (or any other Council member) murdered LFortier in Grand Central Station, the Kremlin, or FBI Headquarters.  I'm pretty darned sure that the Council would insist on taking over the case. :lol:
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Rasins on July 06, 2017, 02:29:47 PM
He was killed at HQ in Edinburg. Their jurisdiction.
I don't think they'd have cared if they thought Morgan (or any other Council member) murdered LFortier in Grand Central Station, the Kremlin, or FBI Headquarters.  I'm pretty darned sure that the Council would insist on taking over the case. :lol:

I agree with LD2.  I've had this discussion before without a satisfactory conclusion, other than, it's their's because they can.  If the murder had occurred in Grand Central Station, I could see them trying to take it, but don't know how successful they'd have been.

I'm thinking that none of the Laws of Magic were broken so why was it handled internally.

Now, this does not mean that there aren't other wizard laws that we haven't heard of, but this would have been a great time to mention it.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on July 06, 2017, 02:48:36 PM
I agree with LD2.  I've had this discussion before without a satisfactory conclusion, other than, it's their's because they can.  If the murder had occurred in Grand Central Station, I could see them trying to take it, but don't know how successful they'd have been.

I'm thinking that none of the Laws of Magic were broken so why was it handled internally.

Now, this does not mean that there aren't other wizard laws that we haven't heard of, but this would have been a great time to mention it.
I'd like to see a mundane police force handle it.

"OK, victim, aged ... 237? Is this a typo? ... OK, suspect, born in ... 1865? Come on, is this some kind of joke?"

The White Council handled it because it wouldn't have made sense for mundane police to do so. Same reason that Harry doesn't go to the CPD for stuff that's outside their purview.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Rasins on July 06, 2017, 03:25:22 PM
And yet we haven't seen Wardens going after thieves (come on, there have to be some clepto wizards), or frauds, or many other laws in the mundane world.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Mr. Death on July 06, 2017, 03:27:49 PM
And yet we haven't seen Wardens going after thieves (come on, there have to be some clepto wizards), or frauds, or many other laws in the mundane world.
I think there's a pretty solid qualitative difference between a theft and assassinating one of the leaders of the whole wizarding world.

The White Council is as self-centered as any other nation -- they're not going to care if some muggles get swindled, but if one of their own ends up dead, they're going to step in.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: jonas on July 06, 2017, 03:31:55 PM
I don't think they'd have cared if they thought Morgan (or any other Council member) murdered LFortier in Grand Central Station, the Kremlin, or FBI Headquarters.  I'm pretty darned sure that the Council would insist on taking over the case. :lol:
That's my point though, their man, their HQ, their jurisdiction. It was covered pretty directly in WN with the difference between a member and an under leveled practitioner. White Council protects White council interests. members, senior council, ect.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: Rasins on July 06, 2017, 03:43:09 PM
I think there's a pretty solid qualitative difference between a theft and assassinating one of the leaders of the whole wizarding world.

The White Council is as self-centered as any other nation -- they're not going to care if some muggles get swindled, but if one of their own ends up dead, they're going to step in.

Oh, I get it.  It just never set right with me.  There are seven laws of magic which is supposedly what the council protects.

Oh, but there are other laws that can result in your head being chopped off as well.  It'd be nice to know that.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on July 06, 2017, 05:55:58 PM
I agree with LD2.  I've had this discussion before without a satisfactory conclusion, other than, it's their's because they can.  If the murder had occurred in Grand Central Station, I could see them trying to take it, but don't know how successful they'd have been.

My guess?  If the police caught the suspect, someone in a nice suit would show up at the relevant NYPD precinct, with completely legitimate papers, and a legitimate-looking but bogus reason why the case was being transferred to Federal jurisdiction, and he'd just vanish into the system.  If the police didn't catch the suspect, he'd just disappear from wherever he was when the Wardens caught up to him.

It's a good bet the Council has its hook into enough politicians and officials to make the jurisdictional transfer at least quasi-legit, legally.  If necessary, though, he could just disappear out of his cell with no explanation.  Access to Faerie is a wonderful thing, and so are veils.

Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on July 06, 2017, 06:00:20 PM
I'd like to see a mundane police force handle it.

"OK, victim, aged ... 237? Is this a typo? ... OK, suspect, born in ... 1865? Come on, is this some kind of joke?"

It's worse than that.  If we're talking about a Council-level suspect, how are the police going to hold him?  If he's a major warlock, how many cops, guards, etc. are going to be maimed, mind-warped, or killed before they decide to back off?  Even if a cop manages to put a bullet in him, where does his death-curse go, and who does it fall on?

The Council is arrogant with regard to mundane authority, so question about it...but their policies are also protective.  Part of the reason the Council doesn't like to allow mortal authorities to be involved in magical business is precisely that the mortal authorities in question have a tendency to end up looking like they've been through a food-processor, or babbling in a padded cell, or worse.

Ask Ron Carmichael about it.

Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on July 06, 2017, 06:01:26 PM
And yet we haven't seen Wardens going after thieves (come on, there have to be some clepto wizards), or frauds, or many other laws in the mundane world.

But at the same time, you probably rarely see such actions affect many people, either.  So it's less disruptive not to rock the boat.  But Council-on-Council violence, or attacks on Council members, are a different thing.
Title: Re: Can a Wizard's Powers be Stolen or Taken permanently?
Post by: LordDresden2 on July 06, 2017, 06:13:02 PM
Oh, I get it.  It just never set right with me.  There are seven laws of magic which is supposedly what the council protects.

Oh, but there are other laws that can result in your head being chopped off as well.  It'd be nice to know that.

I would imagine the Council members mostly do know what they are.  We don't, but I pretty sure they do.  Harry just hasn't discussed it much, and he's our source.

Just speculating, but fairly confidently, I would say that among other things, actions that are likely to get the Council involved (though not necessarily get you executed):

1. Council-on-Council violence (outside of maybe formal duels or the like).

2. Revealing stuff the Council considers 'sensitive'.  Obviously this doesn't automatically just mean knowledge of magic and the Council, because lots of people know.  But I'm sure there is stuff Wizards are expected to keep quiet about, even to low-level practitioners and the like.

OTOH, IIRC, Harry warned Susan explicitly that the White Council would take steps to stop her from revealing very much on a large scale.  Even if she had somehow magically (no pun intended) gotten out of that party at Bianca's alive, intact, and with her story, it wasn't just the Red Court that would make sure it was never published, it was also the Council.

3. Organized violence against low-level practitioners.  Both Harry and Ramirez recognized that one reason the murderer in White Night disguised himself as a Warden was to prevent scared practitioners from turning to the Council for help, which implies that the Council might have intervened.

4. Messing with the Council's financial empire.  (This would be less likely to get you beheaded, I would think, than get you broke, unless it was a Council member doing it.)

5. A Wizard getting too involved in mundane politics on his own, without Council approval.

I'm sure there are others, but I'd be very confident that this sort of stuff could do it.

6. Stealing Council property, especially 'sensitive' or expensive/rare stuff.