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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: groinkick on June 20, 2017, 08:13:41 PM
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Alright this has been done a lot, I know. Who's the British person there?
Now I know we site the language of the person as being more modern than someone from Arthur's time period. I grant that as something difficult for my theory to stand up against. However I'm going by two things I have picked up, one from outside the book, one from inside.
In mythology King Arthur was mortally wounded. He's taken to an island to heal, but he must remain there to heal, and return at a later time.... I'm putting emphasis on "must remain there" to heal..
Now the person on the Island said "I need to be here".
That doesn't sound like someone who was locked up. Most locked up people don't need to be there from their own stand point. They want out. Also it was the Lady of the Lake who placed Arthur there. I see a lot of parallels between Mab, and the Lady of the lake. The Lady of the lake provided Arthur with Excalibur, and now it will be returned to DR where this British person also waits... Seems to me things are lining up for that person, and their role in future books...
So discuss, what do you think?
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most of the discussion so far has centered on the prisoner being Merlin. Arthur may definitely fit. I'm just trying to rectify his significance to the future of the dresden files.
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Him is a lazy writer and likes symmetry. Remind me who the current wielder of Amorachius is?
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Him is a lazy writer and likes symmetry. Remind me who the current wielder of Amorachius is?
A Rock somewhere out in the middle of the lake, or similar :P
I that the OP is correct though, that at the end of the day the same Language issue that the WOJ pointed out with Merlin would equally apply to Arthur:
2015 San Francisco signing (Coopersfield Books)
The original Merlin, does he sound British?
He’d probably sound so unintelligibly British that you wouldn’t be able to tell he was speaking English. No, he’s not the guy in Demonreach.
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I that the OP is correct though, that at the end of the day the same Language issue that the WOJ pointed out with Merlin would equally apply to Arthur:
However, I just thought of an exception. If Arthur (or Merlin) was in storage/healing in Demonreach, as Alfred's language evolved from listening to the prisoners exclaim their innocence/offer up bargains for freedom; his conversations with Arthur/Merlin could have helped him learn new linguistics. I think Alfred would be more likely to talk to someone there for safekeeping rather than a prisoner.
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A Rock somewhere out in the middle of the lake, or similar :P
I that the OP is correct though, that at the end of the day the same Language issue that the WOJ pointed out with Merlin would equally apply to Arthur:
That being said, there is the possibility that because it's telepathic communication and not actually vocal, the British accent was a sign of his heritage, an identifying trait, and his ability to get his message across was because it was telepathic and therefor understandable by Harry... All the other creatures there seemed to also speak English to him perfectly, and you can bet many of them were locked away for probably a thousand years.
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Him is a lazy writer and likes symmetry. Remind me who the current wielder of Amorachius is?
Nobody is currently wielding it. It's waiting for the once and future King :-D
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That being said, there is the possibility that because it's telepathic communication and not actually vocal, the British accent was a sign of his heritage, an identifying trait, and his ability to get his message across was because it was telepathic and therefor understandable by Harry... All the other creatures there seemed to also speak English to him perfectly, and you can bet many of them were locked away for probably a thousand years.
Always true, though it still feels off to me... Also, why would Arthur be telepathic?
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I kind of got the idea, that...if you are in there, that's your only way to try and communicate (for whatever reason), since they all seemed to do so.
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I kind of got the idea, that...if you are in there, that's your only way to try and communicate (for whatever reason), since they all seemed to do so.
But since communication is "Buggering it up entirely" why would the Well itself be providing for direct mental contact between the Inmates and the Warden? Seems like a security risk.
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Always true, though it still feels off to me... Also, why would Arthur be telepathic?
Why would Harry be telepathic?
My guess is it's the power of being Warden. Him being Warden has connected him to the Island, and the prisoners. That's why he can communicate with them. It's my guess that if someone like Thomas went down there it would be utterly silent for him. Harry can hear them though because of his Warden status.
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Why would Harry be telepathic?
My guess is it's the power of being Warden. Him being Warden has connected him to the Island, and the prisoners. That's why he can communicate with them. It's my guess that if someone like Thomas went down there it would be utterly silent for him. Harry can hear them though because of his Warden status.
That brings me back to the same question I had for Grimlock King:
But since communication is "Buggering it up entirely" why would the Well itself be providing for direct mental contact between the Inmates and the Warden? Seems like a security risk.
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But since communication is "Buggering it up entirely" why would the Well itself be providing for direct mental contact between the Inmates and the Warden? Seems like a security risk.
Communication is buggering it up entirely for that prisoner. The rest of the prisoners seem to be fine being allowed to communicate. The British guy doesn't want to be in contact with anyone. That just means that while he doesn't want communication, it doesn't mean that it is ACTUALLY "Buggering it up entirely."
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That brings me back to the same question I had for Grimlock King:
The Warden should have that power as it might be required to question, or communicate with those locked up. The person in stasis is just pointing out that Harry, and other Wardens haven't displayed the maturity or wisdom of the original Warden who probably had amazing self control, and blocked out unwanted communication. Harry doesn't have that communication on the surface. The original Warden probably did not go down there unless it was absolutely required while Harry was doing parkour down there... Hardly mature, or wise, and showing a lack of respect for the dangers the prisoners could still inflict even if locked up. There whispering could influence, or trick him.
The Warden is the controller of that Island. That person has Intelectus of the Island, control of it's defenses, control over Alfred, and the ability to telepathically communicate with the prisoners. Of course communicating with the prisoners is a security risk. So is controlling the Islands defenses, or control over Alfred. But being Warden is being the boss.
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Communication is buggering it up entirely for that prisoner. The rest of the prisoners seem to be fine being allowed to communicate. The British guy doesn't want to be in contact with anyone. That just means that while he doesn't want communication, it doesn't mean that it is ACTUALLY "Buggering it up entirely."
The Brit seems to be the only one that actually agrees with the Purpose of the Well, that's not hte same thing. The others seem to LOVE to communicate because without exception they seem to think they might be able to use it to get free. Which is my point, Any contact at all is potentially a Security Risk, so if you are designing a 5th dimensional Supermax, why risk it?
What the inmates of a Prison think of it's design doesnt really matter...Im sure they'd all vote for short walls made of cheese :P
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The Brit seems to be the only one that actually agrees with the Purpose of the Well, that's not hte same thing. The others seem to LOVE to communicate because without exception they seem to think they might be able to use it to get free. Which is my point, Any contact at all is potentially a Security Risk, so if you are designing a 5th dimensional Supermax, why risk it?
What the inmates of a Prison think of it's design doesnt really matter...Im sure they'd all vote for short walls made of cheese :P
I agree with the security risk. But then again having a Warden that could release them is a security risk too.
I think the Warden would need to communicate with them, if for no other reason than this .... What if the WARDEN has to make a deal with one, to release it, but only if it will do something that the WARDEN believes needs to be done and that prisoner is the only one that can accomplish it? How can said deal be made if the prisoner cannot agree with it?
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I agree with the security risk. But then again having a Warden that could release them is a security risk too.
I think the Warden would need to communicate with them, if for no other reason than this .... What if the WARDEN has to make a deal with one, to release it, but only if it will do something that the WARDEN believes needs to be done and that prisoner is the only one that can accomplish it? How can said deal be made if the prisoner cannot agree with it?
Hmm, reasonable argument (Ive made similar ones in the past theorizing that Time only progresses in the presence of the Warden). Flip argument: If the Warden cannot communicate with the entity, will there be enough common ground to form any such bargain? Im cahnnelingthe old Ender's Game/Speaker for the Dead Hierarchy of Foreignness (http://enderverse.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness), fwiw.
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The Brit seems to be the only one that actually agrees with the Purpose of the Well, that's not hte same thing. The others seem to LOVE to communicate because without exception they seem to think they might be able to use it to get free. Which is my point, Any contact at all is potentially a Security Risk, so if you are designing a 5th dimensional Supermax, why risk it?
Because they may know things you need to know. It might be necessary cut some kind of deal at some point. Circumstances can change. I could easily imagine a Warden (we need some shorthand to distinguish between the Warden and the Wardens) deciding it might be a good idea to offer someone in minimum security parole in exchange for information on how to take down a major threat.
If you've got Shagnasty himself locked away down there, but Kemmler is about to Darkhallow his way to godhood, even Harry might cut Shagnasty loose if it enabled him to neutralize Kemmler.
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The most important reason Harry needs to be able to communicate with them is so he can make a smart ass Silence of the Lambs joke. Obviously.
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The Brit seems to be the only one that actually agrees with the Purpose of the Well, that's not hte same thing. The others seem to LOVE to communicate because without exception they seem to think they might be able to use it to get free. Which is my point, Any contact at all is potentially a Security Risk, so if you are designing a 5th dimensional Supermax, why risk it?
What the inmates of a Prison think of it's design doesnt really matter...Im sure they'd all vote for short walls made of cheese :P
On the flip side, communication does not necessarily equal magic or influence. With Harry running those tunnels for months, anything could have influenced him. I think instead the crystals allow word/thought communication to pass through to the warden when he (or previous she's) are in close proximity, but nothing even close to the line of magic. This is why the island still stands instead of having had a massive prison break eons ago from prisoner x using their abilities to shatter prisoner y's crystal. Now manipulation with truth (a la Changes and Mab) is another story.
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Hmm, reasonable argument (Ive made similar ones in the past theorizing that Time only progresses in the presence of the Warden). Flip argument: If the Warden cannot communicate with the entity, will there be enough common ground to form any such bargain? Im cahnnelingthe old Ender's Game/Speaker for the Dead Hierarchy of Foreignness (http://enderverse.wikia.com/wiki/Hierarchy_of_Foreignness), fwiw.
If the WARDEN cannot communicate, they can't make a bargain.
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If the WARDEN cannot communicate, they can't make a bargain.
ya, we covered that. The questions are a) whether Bargaining with them is anything less than a terrible Idea, and b)Whether it might be a reasonable Protective security measure to require that any beings that want to Communicate with the Warden to be capable of it themselves (as opposed to having all these advanced translations subroutines to facilitate it).
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ya, we covered that. The questions are a) whether Bargaining with them is anything less than a terrible Idea, and b)Whether it might be a reasonable Protective security measure to require that any beings that want to Communicate with the Warden to be capable of it themselves (as opposed to having all these advanced translations subroutines to facilitate it).
That's like saying Hades shouldn't be allowed to speak with the spirits he holds because of security concerns... He's freaking Hades. Well whomever made that Island was very powerful, and very smart. That was the original Warden, and it appears that any Warden is held to the same regard, so it's not a surprise that communication is possible.
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If an ancient deity atoned and realized the errors of its ways, saw the Light of Redemption and Atonement, binding them would be unjust.
Of course, I doubt many, if any, of these beings (save the British Prisoner) has the humility to admit, "I was wrong. Please forgive me." You would likely find Lucifer bowing his head and asking Dad to come home.
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If an ancient deity atoned and realized the errors of its ways, saw the Light of Redemption and Atonement, binding them would be unjust.
Maybe, but I don't think Demonreach is exactly about Justice or Mercy. It may be more oriented toward Necessity.
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Maybe, but I don't think Demonreach is exactly about Justice or Mercy. It may be more oriented toward Necessity.
Demonreach is motivated by Necessity. The Warden, however, as he has pardoning capabilities, seems to be given leeway for compassion and understanding. Deamonreach simply would understand, "Being X is designated to be dangerous by a previous Warden. I contained it. Now Warden Dresden has designated entity safe for removal. I will release it."
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Demonreach is motivated by Necessity. The Warden, however, as he has pardoning capabilities, seems to be given leeway for compassion and understanding. Deamonreach simply would understand, "Being X is designated to be dangerous by a previous Warden. I contained it. Now Warden Dresden has designated entity safe for removal. I will release it."
Always possibly, but that feels like applying a moral hope to what might simply be functional necessary, maybe a relief valve on the prison system. Or to leave the Warden the possibility of Weaponizing the inmates, as has been mentioned in the books.
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Now Warden Dresden has designated entity safe for removal. I will release it."
Designating an entity safe? lol how would Harry go about that decision? If Harry releases something it will be because he has no more options. I doubt even Harry would release something just because it appeared to be nice now. Unless it provided him with some sort of evidence that he could verify that it was wrongly locked up I don't see Harry ever believing that an inmate has changed it's ways.
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Designating an entity safe? lol how would Harry go about that decision? If Harry releases something it will be because he has no more options. I doubt even Harry would release something just because it appeared to be nice now. Unless it provided him with some sort of evidence that he could verify that it was wrongly locked up I don't see Harry ever believing that an inmate has changed it's ways.
I never said how Harry would identify the being as safe or reformed. Simply that he has the capability to make such an assertion and Demon reach wood adhere to his request for release.
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I never said how Harry would identify the being as safe or reformed. Simply that he has the capability to make such an assertion and Demon reach wood adhere to his request for release.
But that's not really a separate ability or function, it's just a hope/assumption of an existing function's use. The Warden is entrusted with the decision to imprison and/or release an inmate, full stop. It would be /nice/ if he were given the time and inclination to somehow Reform and Release inmates, but I dont know that we can assume there are going to be extraneous functions and/or granted abilities to facilitate that. At the end of the day, those are functions that would make this Prison of the Immortal Damned slightly more morally or aesthetically palatable, but they dont really Contribute to its core Purpose.
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A q&a on the wiki says this is Gawain. From a woj even, is this true?
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It's core purpose is to contain or release whomever the WARDEN deems worthy of either.
HOW the WARDEN determines either is completely up to the WARDEN. If the creator of the Well wanted to put limitations on future WARDENs, then there would be some kind of manual. Since DR hasn't limited Harry, we can assume that DR will only answer questions as they are proposed, thus no overarching instructions to teach future WARDENs.
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A q&a on the wiki says this is Gawain. From a woj even, is this true?
I guess nobody has an answer to this one? totoally feel like the ignored new guy in school lol.
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A q&a on the wiki says this is Gawain. From a woj even, is this true?
Im not aware of any WOJ that mentions Gawain specifically in any context. The only WOJs regarding the DR prisoner that Ive seen are confirming that it's not Merlin and it's not Loki.